A reader here sent me this link to some of the craziness of the Philadelphia Church of God. Imagine having to find out that your baptism in the COG is not valid because you were baptized prior to Lil'Stevie Flurry's baptismal date!
Lil'Stevie's baptismal date is one of the most significant events in the history of the Philadelphia Church of God. That is the day that Lil'Stevie completed reading Malachi's Message and studying Herbert Armstrong's writings at the now sacred location at Robbers Cave, Oklahoma. HWA College students now take an annual pilgrimage to the Robbers Cave Campground to gaze in wonder at this most sacred site.
Church Administration
International Announcement
VALID BAPTISMAL COUNSELING
Mr. Flurry prepared this announcement and has asked that it be read in all congregations this Sabbath, November 12, PRIOR to playing the sermon from headquarters.
My son, Stephen, was baptized in the Philadelphia Church of God on January 16, 1990. Prior to his baptism, he had studied Mr. Armstrong’s writings and Malachi’s Message. In my sermon at Edmond last week (November 5), I pointed to his baptismal date as a cut-off point, after which baptisms within the Laodiceans churches became invalid.
This, however, is not true in every case. I should have stated that Stephen’s baptismal date should be used only as an overall guideline for our ministers to work with in their counseling with God’s people and with prospective PCG members. In considering this subject further, I am convinced that many, if not most, people baptized outside the PCG after January 16, 1990, and who then came into the PCG in the early 1990’s, were undoubtedly counseled and baptized properly.
Today, however, it would be safe to assume that anyone baptized by a Worldwide Church of God minister would be considered invalidly baptized. In 1990, the Laodicean era was in its beginning stages. Today, the Laodicean ministry has rejected all, or most, of God’s revealed truth.
The significance of my son’s baptism on January 16, 1990—the very first baptism within the fledgling Philadelphia Church of God—is that it gives our ministers an excellent mile marker to work with in evaluating and counseling prospective members. Anyone baptized after that date by a Laodicean minister should, at the very least, be questioned more extensively about their prior baptismal counseling. Who counseled them? What did they study? Have there been fruits of repentance? And so on.
I do believe that God used my son’s baptismal date to indicate the understanding and/or attitude needed to be validly baptized into God’s Church. My son received the “early and latter rain,” as James described it—revelation given to Mr. Armstrong and to me (Malachi’s Message was the first shower to occur during the later rain). And he was submissive to God’s Word.
So anyone baptized outside the PCG, and after January 16, 1990, must have had that same kind of understanding and/or attitude to have been validly baptized. That doesn’t necessarily mean they had to read Malachi’s Message to become converted. Many may not have known Malachi’s Message even existed. But did they deeply dig into the truth revealed during the early rain? If so, and their attitude was right, and assuming they were baptized according to the specific instructions set forth in Scripture, then they were probably baptized validly. On the other hand, if they were baptized in 1991, and they prepared for their baptismal covenant by studying the WCG’s new teachings, then their baptism is not valid.
Ultimately, each case must be examined individually by God’s ministry. If any of our members have a question regarding the validity of their baptism in a Laodicean church, they should contact their local minister.
I do believe that my son’s understanding and attitude was what God wanted the ministry to focus on in the PCG when baptizing new members—the early and latter rains. Prospective members must come to understand and submit to the revelation given to Mr. Armstrong and what is now being given to the PCG through me.
Gerald Flurry
PGR . November 12, 2005 . Page 3 (Exit and Support Network)
Questions occur. What about fruits of the Spirit flowing in their lives? Wouldn't that be the correct benchmark for measuring the validity of a baptism. Oops. Forgot. In Armstrongism, authoritarianism exists because the leaders do not comprehend or trust the Holy Spirit to personally lead or guide Christians. Strict adherence to law by sheer will power sometimes appears to be a reasonable fake, though.
ReplyDelete1990 was three decades ago. Memories vary proportionately with age, but how specific are any of our memories about anything that happened 32 years ago? Imagine the indignity of starting all over on one's path to Christian maturity because someone arbitrarily decides that a baptism was not valid. It's not as if the PCG ministry is particularly competent to start with. This is the church in which a so-called leader advised parents with difficult children to leave them at the mall! Family members have committed suicide because PCG commands its members to shun family in other splinters.
The ACOGs have a leadership crisis. The ministry in all of the splinters is spectacularly incompetent when subjected to any reasonable standards, and Flurry's group is consistently one of the worst.
Lil Stevie is still better than UCG.
ReplyDeleteFlurry has digressed to the point of a delusional narcissistic personality. He changes doctrine and scripture on a whim even though some of the very last scriptures of the Bible warn against doing so. He exhibits profound lack of empathy for his actions or for the plight of average churchgoer just like his idol and messiah, HWA could care less about the average lay member. He is a deceiver and a FALSE PROPHET. He and his FALSE CULT will fall and go the way of all mankind.
ReplyDeleteI can't wait for Bob and Dave to chime in and give their decisions.
ReplyDeleteGeraldd the Snake bites his own tail forgetting his own trail noted:
ReplyDelete"Today, however, it would be safe to assume that anyone baptized by a Worldwide Church of God minister would be considered invalidly baptized. In 1990"
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Therefore, rendering his own baptism invalid and thus his subsequent ministry moot. Should Gerald have re-baptized himself or had another of WCG descent baptize him since, same outcome.
The depth's a man will go to in trying to establish a religious aristocracy. Similar in ways of how the high priests in Jesus time ran the temple. Annas referred to as an religious God-Father with his relatives ruling like the mafia.
ReplyDeleteThis is actually a HUGE concession by GRF, and it suggests there's something going on behind the scenes.
ReplyDeleteStevie's baptism date has for MANY years been taken as the cutoff date for those requiring rebaptism. The fact that GRF is now publicly calling it a "marker" rather than an absolute is a MAJOR change in PCG practice. Makes me wonder whether Steverino is falling out of favor with his Daddy.
ReplyDeleteRealistically, you probably should question the validity of any baptism that takes place in a satanic imposter cult like the PCG that is led by a false prophet like Gerald Flurry. The person being baptized might receive the sort of evil, lying spirit that the PCG is full of.
I TONTO- "The Comanche Apostle", hereby declare , that ANY ordinations after 1927 in the Radio/WCG and its descendants are INVALID, and that 1927 is the cutoff date of such ordinations.
ReplyDeleteI would wager that he didn't have to go through a lot of red tape just to get baptised.
ReplyDeleteThis baptism of the preacher's son is really a johnny-come-lately milestone. In the aftermath of the Great Disappointment of 1844, Millerites chose to believe that these failed prophetic events had to have some kind of significance. So, they developed a belief called Shut-door Theology. This is defined as follows:
ReplyDelete"Shut-door theology was a belief held by the Millerite group from 1844 to approximately 1854, some of whom later formed into the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It held that as William Miller had given the final call for salvation, all who did not accept his message were lost. The door of salvation was shut, hence the term "shut door"."
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shut-door_theology
So maybe all the Millerites, including the WCG and all of Splinterdom, from William Miller's last call to the present have already lost salvation. After all, Miller is on the critical path in the historical development of the "true church." The pedigree of all the Splinterist denominations passes through the Great Disappointment. (And I think may have picked up a genetic influence or two.)
Therefore, the baptism of the preacher's son just may be a case of too little, too late. That ship already sailed back in the mid-Nineteenth century when the door to salvation was shut. (Can you imagine the glee of those who got in just in time?)
A decade later the Millerites reneged and found a different meaning for these events, but, who knows, they may have been "right" in the first place.
******** Click on my icon for Disclaimer
I left WCG in 1995. That is the cut off date for me. My regret is I didn’t leave earlier. Gerald Flurry is a nut case along with all the others. I am so glad I don’t have someone dictating what I can and can’t do. Gerald needs to take a laxative. He might feel better.
ReplyDeleteJim-AZ
Does this mean Herbert W Armstrong‘s baptism by a Baptist minister is invalid?
ReplyDeleteI found the article distressing to read. It's God who gives the holy spirit to people at baptism. It's not the ministers. The ministers need to keep their meddling hands off God's responsibilities. God struck down many kings in the OT who strayed beyond what was their legitimate realm.
ReplyDeleteA witch-hunt for who or who doesn't have the holy spirit is the stuff of the Salem witch trials. Undoubtedly those who ever question/ed a Flurry doctrine will be regarded as a non-holy spirit Christian.
Claiming Steven Flurry baptism date as some sort of cut off is exalting him to junior God status. This is forbidden by Christ's instruction to call no man our Master. God is against undue influence. But we all know that's precisely the Herb way. In Herb-land, all ministers are mini-me popes.
First, people have to produce their Vaxx papers, and now they have to produce their baptism papers. If not, one must to be rebaptised, with all the usual extortionist demands of giving up ones natural rights. Very Nazi like.
Does this mean Herbert W Armstrong‘s baptism by a Baptist minister is invalid?
ReplyDeleteNo. You don't understand. A WCG baptism was valid if you intended to obey HWA. A PCG baptism is valid if you intend to obey GRF. It's an old heresy that the spiritual quality of the baptizer is what makes the baptism valid. If that heresy were true, most WCG baptisms are invalid because the baptizers apostatized or left outright.
At baptism, HWA intended to obey HWA. That made his baptism valid, just like all the other valid WCG baptisms.
Jan 16? Herb's death anniversary. GF makes a dogmatic statement and then backtracks bigtime. A double minded man............
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:35, I think HWA's original book on baptism stated that if the baptizer later went astray, the effect of one's baptism is not changed. And that in itself seems to have begged some questions.
ReplyDeleteIt's God who gives the holy spirit to people at baptism.
ReplyDeleteI heard a recent non-COG twist on this. A pastor claimed one must be baptized, but only the Apostles "had the power" to lay on hands for the baptized person to receive the Holy Spirit. His assumption is that the Holy Spirit must come independently, not through human action. So pity the people he has baptized? I don't know.
10.49 AM
DeleteA problem with "independent" baptisms is that a contract must have some outward expression of consent. Which is why the laying on of hands and immersion in water.
"A problem with "independent" baptisms is that a contract must have some outward expression of consent. Which is why the laying on of hands and immersion in water."
ReplyDeleteAnyone can baptize another person and it is a valid baptism. The laying on of hands carries not apostolic significance that makes a baptism more important than one done by a regular person.
I don't know if anyone else remembers this, as I was an adolescent at the time, but it was around the time of GTA's ouster and the state of California's investigation and receivership that I recall that minister's and others had to pledge a oath of loyalty to HWA. I was just around 13 at the time but I had just read some history about Hitler, the german army and the Third Reich and how many officers & generals that wanted to overthrow Hitler were hesitant to do so because they had pledged themselves to Hitler rather than Germany itself. Flurry, just like his idol, HWA demands allegiance to themself rather than Christ.
ReplyDelete6.19 PM
DeleteThe German military first swore an oath to the Kaiser, then to the Weimar constitution and later to Hitler himself. So which oath prevails? The issue is morally murky.
The generals who tried to kill Hitler believed that their equivalent of "obey God rather than man" was to put Germany first.
Employees had to sign the same document
ReplyDeleteI signed that loyalty oath, and actually had to drive one of my colleagues from the department in which we worked home when his conscience would not allow him to sign it. Those were the conditions. If you would not sign, you were no longer employed. This was a very controversial matter at the time. I remember another guy in our depertment saying, "I'm not giving up my livelihood. They put us in this position so I don't owe them anything. I'm just going to lie!"
ReplyDeleteWhen Dr. Martin, and others like Mr. Carrozzo and Mr. Plache left, plus Mr. Westby, and all of the people back East that formed the Associated Churches of God, HWA was absolutely paranoid. And, those were just the liberals! There was also the conservative backlash, as Raymond Cole refused to go along with the relaxing of the original divorce and remarriage and medical doctrines.. Ambassador Reports, the ouster of GTA, receivership and the sit in at the Hall of Administration, pot parties amongst students, members, and employees, AC was in the Star News every single day for weeks! All of this was happening quickly in a compressed period of time. A lot of angst, and a wide variety of attitudes.
The oath of loyalty was just the beginning. Campus Security, deacons, and long term loyalists set up a surveillance van photographing members and employees attending Dr. Martin's meetings, and once identified, they were terminated from employment. The AC dorms were bugged with electronic devices and all conversations were monitored. An emergency ministerial conference was called, with many of the field ministers refusing to attend and being terminated. I'll never understand how they regained control of this massive situation, but slowly and surely they did.
Oh, and did I mention that this was all unfolding during the "Great Disappointment of 1975"??? 1995 was a picnic compared to 1975!
I'm wondering just what PCG ministers council possible new members about. Do they tell the new members how to choose which children get abandoned at malls?
ReplyDeleteYa, I’m not so many words, but yes!! They are told to count the costs, which means they are to give up anything and everything if need be. This includes children!
DeleteThis is a sick cult!
NO human organization is THE Church of God. It is the assembly of people whom God has called together. God does NOT recognize ANY human entity as "His" Church. These manmade designations mean NOTHING to him! We should all also remember that all seven of the congregations mentioned in the book of Revelation were part of God's Church. While they had different evaluations and rewards, Laodiceans were just as much a congregation of God's Church as were the Philadelphians!
ReplyDeletePaul wrote to the saints at Ephesus that "there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, in all, and living through all." (Ephesians 4:4-6) To suggest that one group's baptism is superior to another group's is ABSURD! Baptism is a ritual that underscores a spiritual reality - that is all! As such, I would say that a person's individual conscience regarding his/her baptism is the most important factor. If you are satisfied with having been baptized by a Southern Baptist lay person in Calico Creek, then what in God's name do any of the rest of us have to do with that?
Stevereno said...
ReplyDeleteI'm wondering just what PCG ministers council possible new members about. Do they tell the new members how to choose which children get abandoned at malls?
The same things they counsel members about.
I grew up in the WCG and spent my youth and young adult years in the PCG. Here's a list of things I can remember friends and family being 'counseled' on:
* whether or not to go to college
* whether or not to apply to AC
* what kind of job to get / difficulties at your job (even if they were self inflicted)
* dating (here I should differentiate between those whom they determined to be ineligible to date and those who were eligible and trying to figure out compatibility with a future spouse, which of course had to go through an approval process)
* whether to continue to live with disaffected 1) spouses 2) relatives 3) parents (events that occurred within my family)
* where to live
* where you should attend services and importantly where you shouldn't attend (often this also meant attending only your home congregation with exceptions made for rare occasional visits or those who traveled for work, and then not without ministerial approval)
* finances -- including whether or not to invest in a 401(k), reviewing your tithing practices if you were in financial difficulties
* health matters; I'd like to note here that there was a long-standing fallacy within the ministry and lay members that eating lemons every day would somehow make your body more alkaline and less acidic; I would later research this and find that diet extremes actually don't change your body pH level much at all, though they could impact other factors of health.
* elements of your personal life, which could get very, very intensely private
I'm sure I left a few things out, but they would counsel you on anything you brought to them, and much that you didn't.
It is my opinion that there were some well-meaning minsters who were humble and seriously tried to help people... and many more who thought they were an expert on every facet of life simply because they had been made a minister. Ironically, you could get two very different pieces of advice on the same topic depending on which minister you spoke with.
Also, one minister in particular fancied himself a bit of a psychologist (even though the church disdained the field and discouraged pursuit of it) based on the questions he asked me about my childhood and familial relations.
To this I’d like to add that in 2011 (I may me a year off) at the ministerial conference, Wayne Turgeon gave an entire lecture on using alcohol during counselling and how it helps loosen people up and they let their guards down. Thus you can glean more information from them about their personal lives and others as well. And I can speak from personal experience, as this very tactic was tried on me. And some of them are incredibly sly and manipulative, and before you know you are lead around like a dog on a leash.
DeleteSICK AND ABUSIVE!
If anyone has ever had an abusive alcoholic in one's family, it can make one never care if you ever saw a drink ever for the rest of one's life. Just that fact along and Turgeon's flippant attitude towards it show ls that he is a phoney and a bastard.
DeleteWell, 1:06, we're witnessing a modernized parallel of that in our own times with the orange dude, aren't we? I'm just wondering how far we have to repeat that path before a very nasty surprise kicks in. Fortunately, most of us who were ever involved with Armstrongism (like 12:43) have had church experiences which made us wise enough to detect what is unfolding nationally, secularly/politically. The freight train is building steam in the background. It may have been slowed by the 2020 elections, but has certainly not been derailed. I hope that we as a nation can avoid the USA becoming a cookie cutter copy of the Weimar Republic, but the other side is not helping normalize. They are busy creating a more extreme reaction point instead.
ReplyDeleteI have one question. Who the hell do they think Stephen Flurry is? Oh that's right, he's nobody!
ReplyDelete