David C. Pack Admits RCG Is A Hazardous Work Environment
The Greatest Unending Story! (Part 372)
June 6, 2022
@ 44:51 …and I’m gonna say something to you and you’re just gonna have to take it for what it’s worth. The most vicious, evil wicked-hearted men I have ever dealt with, I’ve dealt within this church. Literally. As the age’s gone on, people are worse you we brought them here, we put’em in paradise. We give’em beautiful offices…the college, the the products that we we publish. Unbelievable. And they’re the most murderous, lying, thieving people, in many cases, that have come into our ministry. I didn’t think it was possible to get worse than Worldwide and Global proved to me it can. And I, “Whoa, that was that was unbelievable.” But the worst have been here.
@ 46:33 So it’s it’s it’s it’s a curious anomaly that you see the ministers who’re supposed to be teaching the truth abusing, lying, stealing, things that would just curl your hair ten times over if I told you. But the brethren: wonderful and sweet and kind and happy, evermore so.
Now the ministers we have at this point look to be as wonderful as any I’ve ever worked with. Now, I’m not talking about the ones we have here. But there are people that can speak lies in hypocrisy, so you never really know.
I’ve learned to sit in that room up there, we talk about doctrine and know that I might be sitting across from or next to a minister who’s gonna try to destroy this church within an hour. So he’s he’s able he’s able, literally, he’s able to feign obedience, alright. Talk about feigning obedience…Some of these guys are really really good. They’re utterly murderous, lying thieves and I know what’s gonna happen them when Christ comes, they’re gonna be cut asunder.
@ 51:23 “And no man can shut it.” [Revelation 3:8] Now, why do You say that to us? Now, I’ll tell you I you just do not understand our enemies, they want to murder the church. You don’t understand that. These are the these are deeply satanic men. They want to shut the door of this church so you can’t be fed and so we can’t reach anybody else.
@ 57:09 Now, the worst people today are the ones who left us. Not so much in the Splinters, they’re lukewarm and, you know, kinda floppy. They are what they are. There’re some bad bad people over there, too. But they’re not really plaguing us. It’s the people who come among us and you shower all this goodness on them and they just want you dead. And it’s a most amazing thing but Satan is the author of murder and lies.
@ 1:39:26 The worst possible people keep leaving and poisioning the well out there.
This message was delivered the day after David C. Pack’s Pentecost failure. That’s three dates set within a 30-day period. May 15. May 30. June 5. He still has time to roll out a quadruplet.
It’s quite an amazing thing to watch a human being stare perfect failure in the face and still absolutely KNOW he is right.
Bonus Flashback – September 11, 2020 – Part 266 @ 33:43
“I don’t see any possible way, none, we’ll talk about this at the end, no possible way without fighting and trashing and rejecting the scriptures, I’ma give you my opinion, then you can decide whether I’m the ruler Christ appointed, where this can happen after Trumpets. I see no way, none. And you’ll and you’ll be your own judge, because we all live by our own faith.”
This is quite amazing. Dave is speaking of the people who started out being totally committed to him and what he is doing. And, then they somehow began to see him not as they had seen him in their fantasies, but as he really is. What are they supposed to do at that point other than get the heck out and warn others? Miraculously, Dave somehow just doesn't get it. I've likened him in the past to the cartoon character Pepe LePew, who wanders around in a kind of euphoric state not realizing why nobody can stand to be around him for any length of time.
ReplyDeleteI would say the worst is yet to come. When everyone has turned their backs and left him behind, it will still never dawn on him that he is the toxic one. It is inevitable. The only thing which could possibly change this outcome would be if Jesus actually did appear in response to one of Dave's latest forecasts, pat him on the back, and say "Attaboy, Mr. Pack!"
Sounds like the rumblings of the dictator Hitler in hte last days being in the bunker.
ReplyDeleteVery indicative of a dangerous time for the remnant still remaining with Pack.
Im sure that someone taking a pencil home from the plantation also gets rolled into the "conspiracy"
This guy is totally NUTS! I saw his "Herbie" ads on the internet today. Reminds me of a scripture, "And no marvel, Satan's ministers appear as angels of light".
ReplyDeleteI take that back, he doesn't even have the APPEARANCE of an angel of light!
ReplyDeleteThe ministers that have left are the deeply satanic men? They are? YOU hired them, trained them and every single one of them backed you up, even though they knew you were wrong. And THEY are the evil, satanic, murderous, lying, stealing wicked ones??? Was it one of them that deceived the members, for the upteenth time, about the return of Christ? No. It was you...God's Apostle. The Elijah to come. The Porter. That Prophet. You sick coward. Get help.
ReplyDeleteYou are an evil, evil man. YOU ARE OF YOUR FATHER, THE DEVIL and the works of your father you have done! May God have mercy on your soul, because I sure as hell would not.
Well he has to fight back. His livelihood is at stake. And claiming supernatural satanic attacks is the best way to do it. I do agree that ministers who sit there and take a paycheck when they know that he is preaching b.s. is cowardice and borderline evil. However, I am sure they were caught off guard by the copious amount of nonsense he was producing.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, like Herb did... receivership "crisis" was "satan". Easy deflect of ones own actions to blame everything that ever did go wrong on Satan.
DeleteI think I figured out the windshields! Dave sold the horses and bought some motorcycles instead???
ReplyDelete(That can make some people cool, but not Dave!)
Dave and his God are playing mind games. I think they get a kick out of pulling the wool over people's eyes, seeing how long they can string people along, and how much stupid stuff they can make people believe.
ReplyDeleteMarc, Do you see him blink in the Pentecost video? I see him look down but he doesn't really blink at all. He has destroyed RCG all by himself and he's blaming everyone else.
ReplyDeletePack said: "The worst possible people keep leaving and poisioning (sic) the well out there."
ReplyDeleteMy heart goes out to his son-in-law, daughter, and family as one of the many whose conscience have led them to leave. I can't imagine what it's like to have to go on in life having been subjected to this treatment. I hope they continue to keep their children away from this evil man. This needs to end when he ends as well as the other cult leaders in these godless splinters of the godless and wrong WCG cult.
http://ififorgettotellyou.com/storm-the-beach/
The FALSE PROPHETS and WRONG GUESSERS
ReplyDeleteThe Satan-sent, Satan-directed false prophets who were sent by Satan himself/herself/itself AGAINST Worldwide Church of God people. These are the most deceitful and cruel fraudsters that Satan came up with:
Gerald R. Flurry (The fake follower of HWA, gospel suppressor, That Runt identity thief, and family wrecker.)
David C. Pack (Klepto-Dave Pack-of-lies. The doctrinally unstable Bait & Switch scammer.)
The self-appointed false prophets who sent themselves AGAINST Worldwide Church of God people to try to start their own income streams:
Ronald E. Weinland (The prophetic fantasy fiction writing ex-con.)
Robert J. Thiel (The mentally challenged guy who looks to demons, pagans, and television news for prophetic trivia.)
The prediction addicted goofballs who work AGAINST Worldwide Church of God people by trying to pretend that they can predict the future:
Alton B. “Don” Billingsley (The “old fool.”)
Norbert Link (The “lawyer.”)
One of the most difficult things I had to learn about life is that the way in which people treat you is a manifestation of yourself reflecting back upon you. It is nothing more or less than looking into a mirror. You want a good reflection, start by changing you! If Dave truly sees Satan in these people, and his comments are not just hyperbole, reality is that he is simply seeing himself!
ReplyDeleteThat is wise and I believe that too. What you see is what you are.
DeleteOne of the most difficult things I had to learn about life is that the way in which people treat you is a manifestation of yourself reflecting back upon you. It is nothing more or less than looking into a mirror. You want a good reflection, start by changing you! If Dave truly sees Satan in these people, and his comments are not just hyperbole, reality is that he is simply seeing himself!
ReplyDeleteMake sure you pay tithes, offerings, donations, and common on time, and make sure you volunteer to do some fundraisers, SO THE WORK CAN GO ON AND ON AND ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if he ever leaves the campus, or has he completely cut himself off from the outside world? His house is there, he "works" there. Not sure if he and his wife do their own grocery shopping or if they ever go out to dinner. Probably gets picked up and driven to the office.
ReplyDeleteMy biggest question when I heard these quotes was: WHO IS HE TALKING ABOUT?
ReplyDeleteI cannot think of a single man who left that would embody such ire. He kept mentioning ministers. Perhaps it's just an amalgam of all the men who used to sit across from him but betrayed him an hour later...since 1999.
Are his statements true? Or is this an exaggeration from a self-deluded mind? I know DCP is able to create his own reality around him with the support of the Headquarters Enablers. I witnessed it first hand. But who is he talking about? What group? What man specifically comes to mind when he says that?
Here is how I think these statements can be remotely true in his mind. I'm not a psychologist, but this is only my personal theory. I am not diagnosing here.
"murderous" - those that call out Dave on his faults and throw facts in his face
"lying" - those that deny that he is an apostle, Elijah, Joshua, etc. or those who call him a false prophet, quoting the Bible
"thieving" - those who collect tithes by starting their own ministry or those who left and no longer pay tithes, offerings, and Common to RCG
"abusing" - perhaps by not giving followers "all the goodness" that RCG offers...?
"things that would just curl your hair ten times over if I told you" - The pot is calling the kettle black on this one
"feign obedience" - those who try with all their might to see doctrine his way and tough through all the clear failures for as long as they can, but eventually have to succumb to the overwhelming biblical truth written in their Bibles
"deeply satanic men" - anyone who leaves and speaks out against what they have witnessed, opening up about what is really going on in RCG
"they just want you dead" - nobody wants this...not physically...not spiritually
"poisoning the well out there" - the well was poisoned years ago from within by you-know-who
It was of great note that there was no clear acknowledgement of the past three dates coming and going without God's Kingdom arriving as Dave said it would. You know, like the very day before. I really do hope some people post-dated their checks this weekend. RCG does not give refunds.
MARC--
ReplyDeleteThere were rumors at one time that even his current wife is fed up with him.
Is she "all in" , or is there problems there too?
"But in spite of all of my trying, a handful of our people - with their lies have made our lives impossible. There is no way to detach ourselves from what happened today".
ReplyDelete"Not only are we in a compound situation, but there are those that have left and committed the betrayal of the century".
These are a couple of opening statements by Jim Jones before he some 45 minutes later murdered over 900 people including 300 children.
Dave Pack has no way forward period. He can't produce Jesus Christ when he says he can produce him. He can't establish one revelationary narrative and stick with it however how long it takes to come to fruition. He can't trust anyone in his presence going forward. There has been no worldwide announcement of just who he is. There has been no final message from his own mouth for the world to contemplate.
Dave Pack's mind of death never quits. These recent "enemies" will be cut asunder. Three men (COG leaders) will die by fire. He will set up fiery ovens across the world in the Kingdom to burn up the enemies of ....? Everyone that has gone against him has presumably died or become incapacitated. He will go, according to him, with six of his fellows and murder vast millions with the edge of the sword in the not too distant future.
Jim Jone's mind had this to say to his followers on that fateful day in 1978. "Now what's going to happen here in a matter of minutes, is that one of those people on that plane is going to shoot the pilot - I know that! I didn't plan it, but I know it is going to happen.
The mind of death in this world is of one spirit, and it certainly isn't God's. There is the very real reality that Dave Pack himself could die at any time. And what would be his legacy and what would be written for an epitaph? It might read something like this: Dave Pack spent the last 10 years of his and his member's life expounding from a theological rat's hole of events that never came to be. To fund his fake and dangerous kingdom, he caused the financial death of all of his followers. He caused the death of many marriages and family units to further fund his enterprise. He caused the spiritual death of many, who lost any and all orientation of the one true God. He wished death upon all of his perceived enemies in the present time and spoke often of his participation in the future deaths of multiple millions of people. In the end, he is just a footnote in history and to a degree, his likeness is like that of other men in the past who gained notoriety for their acts against the innocent.
God help the members of the RCG!
Whatever happened to his teaching that accusers should not be answered? Oh that's right, it was written just to make himself look good in his own eyes. He sure threw out a whole bunch of accusations in his little rant. It is really getting to him that people still continue to expose him after all of these years.
ReplyDeleteWonder what Jesus Christ will say to this man when he comes face to face with him.
ReplyDeleteThis man belongs in an institution.
ReplyDeleteHe'll probably have to be committed to one, because his behaviour has been strange for a long time, even back in the WCG days.
DeleteStark raving mad.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's obvisous.
DeleteTonto, I firmly believe that personal information regarding Vernia Pack is off limits. If I had information regarding the state of their marriage, I would not post it publicly. "That's the guy's wife, man..." -- If this were a Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker scenario, then that would be a different story.
ReplyDeleteOne of the most wonderful people I had the pleasure to get to know in RCG was Vernia Pack. She would often check to see how I was doing. And not just a "walking past you without stopping" kind of way. She would walk up to me and ask, "Marc, how are you?" And she would listen because I would tell her the truth. Most folks in RCG will say, "Very well, thank you. How are you?" And move on. Not her.
She is kind, thoughtful, and sweet. She could surprise you with her humor. The woman is funny. She carried herself with a grace and humility that was refreshing. The weight of "her office among women" pressed upon her because she was seen as "the apostle's wife" and yet she NEVER carried herself like that. I found her to be very approachable. She is one of the most down to earth people you could meet in RCG.
Vernia Pack also loves children. She is wonderful with them. And you know what else? Dave Pack loves kids, too. One time at HQ, when Dave and his ministers were sitting in a meeting in the Main Hall, a child walked up to him interrupting the meeting and wanted a hug. He stopped the meeting, picked up the kid with a smile and hugged and kissed her. It was an endearing moment. Dave Pack is not a monster.
When I critique or satirize on video or in words...I'm attacking the man's teachings and his words...not him personally. I don't hate Dave Pack. He is not my enemy. I am not trying to hurt him. (I have always thought of him as being made of Teflon and Kevlar. Someone recently pointed out that I may be hurting him. That gave me pause. I hadn't considered that possible. But he is a human being, so I must be more careful with what I say and write.)
Tonto, that's much more than you asked. :)
Sandy Oliver, I think I know where you were going with this. Yes, he appears to be blinking like everyone else.
PS - I chatted with a former minister last night. He had some observations regarding the "lying and stealing" comments from DCP. He thinks it was in reference to employees and ministers who "disagree" but still kept collecting a paycheck from RCG. (As if disbelief in Dave is the same as not fulfilling your job duties). This equates to stealing in Dave's mind.
If you disbelieve Dave and don't call him on it during one of those mind-numbing ministerial Bible studies, then your silence is "lying". -- I've heard from MULTIPLE men who used to be in the room, that if you DID speak up...if you DID counter Dave on what he was teaching, you got hell for it. In front of everyone. All the men learned to keep their mouths shut and heads down. Which means the ministers that are left over there...are beaten down, defeated, deflated, and broken men. Dave Pack rings the bell and they all salivate. It's very sad.
Pack not a monster?! Marc he has destroyed dozens of lives and families!
ReplyDeleteHe loves children? Yeah, the child lover has ripped families apart with his false teachings and financial demands, so, so what if he gives a kid a hug from time to time. Even Stalin and Hitler were known to hug a kid occasionally.
Dave Pack lies and steals like a demoniac and leaves people destitute and spiritually burned out and shattered, and yet some people think he is a nice guy because he hugs little girls.
ReplyDeleteI have heard that Adolf Hitler had a nice side to him too.
Wake up!
Don't you get the impression that the man is just filled with Love.
ReplyDeleteIf you look closely at the first paragraph, he actually refers to the Compound as "Paradise". There you have it, Paradise is right here on earth. Its at the Compound in Wadsworth Ohio, and it has its own little ruler. How quaint.
ReplyDeleteThe Nazis were favorable to children because they viewed them as inferior.
ReplyDeleteSo Pack doing the same is unsurprising.
Where is the love in stealing these childrens inheritance money with his common doctrine
A trait of all evil people is that they project their faults onto others. So Dave's accusations are the very things that he is guilty of. An example of this is a murderous King Saul in the OT accusing everyone of plotting against him. Stalin did the same, resulting in purges that killed millions of his countrymen.
There's another thing, 5:20. The reason why many criminals are either never caught, or seldom caught is that most of the time they act like normal everyday people. It's only the less than 1% ot their time that they are doing evil. They hide in plain sight! Others are often shocked when people whom they know well are suddenly caught in the act. Hitler petting puppies or hugging children kept those close to him believing that he was a good person, a patriotic person, doing what was best for Germany. Many people who do bad things don't even see those things as being bad. They manage to delude themselves. And then, they are shocked by the ways in which others around them always seem to betray them.
ReplyDeleteNazis were murderous criminals. Comparing DCP to Nazis doesnt resonate with me whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteEvery last thing hes ever asked his followers to do he has done himself as it relates to giving money too. His own children got informed early that there would be nothing as it relates to inheritances. DCP himself inherited large sums of money from multiple family members and took money from his house to fund his paradise and church payroll. Common is absurd but he lived common himself long before he preached it.
Common does not make him evil and its not like after people interview and beg to get behind the gates and attend with him its somehow a secret either. This crap is taught right up front. You know EXACTLY what your getting into from day one. You ruin your childrens inheritance youre doing side by side with DCP.
I appreciate Marcs approach to not make this personal and to stick to the theology. It would behoove people to remind themselves that attacking people PERSONALLY for religious or political beliefs is generally not considered a fine character trait. Id avoid it. If somebody has a criminal charge theyd like to discuss Id be all ears. If somebody has any personal questions about him as a person as somebody who knows him pretty well Id find that type of question rather irrelevent to a site dedicated to tearing down the theology
The Sun[burned] Kid at 8:45:00 AM said...“Common does not make him evil and its not like after people interview and beg to get behind the gates and attend with him its somehow a secret either. This crap is taught right up front. You know EXACTLY what your getting into from day one.”
ReplyDeleteNot true. That is not at all how David Pack's Bait & Switch scam worked.
I remember that back when Dave Pack first came up with his new idea that everyone had to give him virtually everything they had, Dave said, “We all knew it was coming.” Well, personally, I did not know that it was coming. I must have been left out of the loop. Not a prophet. Last to know. It was a bit of a surprise to me.
Also, the “all things common” mentioned in the Bible is different than the “common” teaching that Dave suddenly claimed to have “restored.” In the Bible, people gave this money voluntarily and were not told that they had to give it “or no salvation if you don't,” as Dave has said. Furthermore, in the Bible, this money was distributed to everyone as they had need. It was not at all like Dave's “common” where everything gets distributed to Dave alone as he has wants.
My understanding is that the money has been and remains for..... "the paradise". There doesnt seem to be an expected standard of living beyond simply creating this massive communal headquarters property and absurd payroll to go along with it.
DeleteFor discussion sake do you have any examples of what DCP is using this money for beyond payroll and mortgage on the property itself? Is there any examples of malfeasance among the leadership and their spending habits? Fancy cars, trips, clothes, jewelry, girlfriends, etc we dont know about? Please dont mention the horses. Im sure there are rabbits and deer on the property eating all the grass too.
If I had to guess the entire financial commitment goes to monthly basic overhead alone. If anything it is shocking to me this pitifully tiny church group has maintained this thing as long as they have. Common to me seems like its literally the only financial option at this point especially after the date setting ruined any practical growth and crushed monthly tithepaying retention within a shrinking membership.
Horrible business model but clearly nothing seems hidden here. If common gets tossed alot of people lose their job and the members lose their shiny headquarters. Im not sure anybody still involved there is rooting for that. If they are Im sure theyre not the ones doing any of the recent giving
Hazardous and Toxic Abuse
ReplyDeleteDave Pack's RCG religion is all about getting people to put up with being lied to and robbed for a lifetime. Dave tries to get people to believe that they have to put up with this sort of hazardous, toxic, abusive environment in order to get saved.
Sunburn said: "Common does not make him evil" ... beg to differ, it sure does. Twisting scripture to take advantage of people is most certainly evil.
ReplyDeletetwisting scripture? you cant be serious. you just defined theological differences lmao
Deletegive me a better example of "evil". my comment had to do with all the ridiculous nazi references. anybody have anything they can speak of on DCP along the lines of genocide or the burning and gassing people or worldwide war or something like that? or just that hes too much hippie commie waiting for jesus for your liking? that he bought some old ass second hand horses that the folks on the commune can ride and you dont like it. god forbid he builds a playground or something just imagine the evil
Donating your entire net worth into something you believe and then preaching thats what everybody needs to do along with you isnt evil. Do you understand that? Is it whack ass crazy? Sure but thats all. Comparing him to Hitler or calling him evil is straight up out of line
I for one am getting a more accurate perspective, and appreciate it, Sundown. We haven't seen a lot over the years that would tend to humanize your Dad, or to provide an understanding of his motivations. Thank you for sharing your insights.
ReplyDeleteYour Quote: "Common does not make him evil". I stand by my statement, ... "Twisting scripture (all things common) to take advantage of people is most certainly evil".
ReplyDeleteI said nothing about Hitler, I just disagree with your assertion that twisting the idea of common to increase revenue for horses or tulips does not make him evil.
The man is toxic.
ReplyDeleteHey Sundown, you don't happen to live in Wadsworth Ohio do you? You sound familiar.
ReplyDeleteCan't we all just get along?
ReplyDeleteWould you anonymous folks knock it off with the Hitler comparisons. For real. That's just silly. Does Dave hurt people? Yes. On THAT level...of course not. Throwing "Nazi" around is like throwing "racist" out there because the more you do it, the less it means. It also reduces your argument and point of view to about 5th grade level.
Anonymous June 9 @ 12:37pm - You nailed Common. Good commentary.
Sundown Kid - Common is not a "day one" teaching. If they did that NOBODY would walk in the door. Some don't hear about it until much after they have been invited. The ministers need time to "feel out" if a new member has substance. And then they break out the margarine. You have to EASE someone into giving up all their "spare" funds and property. On day one? You'd see a silhouette hole in the front door.
DCP is doing nothing "criminal" and everyone should know this because there are so many disgruntled ex-members/ex-employees that would be privy to such information, they'd be blowing the whistle as they were marched to their car in the parking lot. There is no illegal smoke there. If there was, then this would all be so much easier.
Is he a false apostle, false prophet, false teacher, a religious fraud, and the only man suited in the entire world (in his own mind) to do what he does? Yes. I do not think he's "a monster" but that is a subjective opinion.
Let's keep the blows above the belt. Well, unless it's really funny. :)
A newly emerging view of DCP would seem to be that he is a purpose-driven ascetic who has attracted similarly minded ascetics. His followers are consenting adults.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the reason he pisses most of us off is that he takes an already extreme religious philosophy to further and deeper extremes. He also has no tolerance for those who suddenly take umbrage with the asceticism.
Normally, most of us would only feel threatened by a group of extremists if they were increasing in numbers and threatening, neither of which he appears to be at this point in time. He's an old guy whose life's driving hope and dream seems less likely with each passing day.
I would find it very interesting to hear the stories of forced or pressured giving in these other rinky dink doing a big work splinters. I think it happens alot. In fact I know it does or at least did. I still think DCP announcing from the pulpit this was now POLICY is what got him in hot water. These other outfits can pressure pressure pressure but as long as they dont freaking announce this kind of thing from the pulpit they have plausible deniability that the giving is all done willingly. But from my perspective its actually something that should kind of be applauded that he came right out and said it? The whole movement is crazy but shouldnt the leaders that everything their thinking is right on the tip of their tongue 10 seconds later be applauded as the least concerning of the crowd?
ReplyDeleteHe doesnt live extravagantly. Nobody on the commune does. The only thing he spends money on way to much and has for years is landscaping. Hes massively OCD about landscaping. Since I was little like 3rd grade age landscaping was something I had to do for freaking hours every week during the growing seasons. Bushes in bushes out. He would plant tree after tree after tree thousands and thousands of dollars we did not have on landscaping rental homes into the nicest yards in the neighborhood. Wed get maybe a hundred bucks for school clothes each year but hed go spend 10 times that on bushes and trees for an effing rental property. I resented that so much but now looking back it was just part of the sickness. It was literally a disorder. Not one that made him evil just OCD and weird weird weird.
But anyway do the math on how these churches have to operate. If I recall the annual expected income in these tithe offering armstrong model splinters was something like 120k of income for every 100 members. Well if youre down to under 1000 members then how in the hell can they sustain themselves with just that? They do not own the compound outright in cash there is mortgages on everything. I cant even begin to imagine the mortgage let alone overhead that goes along with that property. 40k a month minimum? maybe more? is it double that? You got all that landscaping and cut in roads just imagine the cost of this joint. Even the fence Marcs referred to that had to cost a chunk. Then you have like 30-40 employees even if theyre making 30 grand a piece which is peanuts thats still what like a million easy each year in just payroll on top of the rest of it?
It doesnt add up. It doesnt . You got to have some serious commitment with some hardcore ideology to keep this commune functional.
There are alot of things Im upset with. There are things that have made me want to knock him the hell out trust me. But evil because of the theology and the teachings? As a nonbeliever I just look at him as a old school hardcore OT preacher. He follows that book literally word for word just like he was taught. You dont twist the scriptures its the scriptures that have twisted him all his life. Annihilate your enemies? Curse them? Lightning from heaven? Dont spare the rod? Temples of gold? Crazy prophets who write tons of awesome super confusing verses to spend a lifetime trying to navigate? Hours each day on your knees begging god to open your eyes as he commands you? Yeah his mind was fried years ago by this crap and he was mostly an awful father but hes the most open and honest and straight up nothing hide crazy with the theology and that makes him the least harmful of any of them left. If youre with him I have literally zero pity for you. None
Hey Marc,
ReplyDeleteIs not being a false apostle, false prophet, false teacher, a religious fraud called "evil" in the Bible? Matt 7:15. So, while it may be wrong to compare Dave to Hitler, is it wrong to compare him to Satan? He is a ravenous wolf who is devouring his prey. This is what Satan does. This guy is clearly possessed by a being far greater than any humans on this earth. If he was God's true apostle or prophet (or whatever he says he is), then he would put the needs and care of the brethren well before his own. I have known too many people who have been devoured by this man both financially and mentally. So, yes, we can all get along, but I am not sure not seeing this man as a monster is a correct subjective opinion.
Kind of disingenuous watching Davie C's son come to his defense. Taking shots at other organizations is humorous sunburn. The man is evil and you just can't admit it can you.
ReplyDeleteThats not why Im here man. Im here for myself. Not him. If Im coming off that way I apologize. Im just speaking my truth and I intend to be as open and honest as possible about it.
DeleteBut you post on a site dedicated to destroying him and Ive been referenced here for years. My life history has been posted to this place and I just felt it was time to share.
And btw sundown kid was my nickname in the local papers growing up in wwcg. I was mocked horrifically as a child and it was just another example of a long list of shit I had to take the same way all of us did. If you post here it means were all survivors one way or the other Id appreciate not spinning that username into something I would have expected from those trying to hurt me in high school. I say that respectfully.
Also maybe frame everything I say from the lense of me being a non believer who has raised his children to believe there is no god? At least one that I understand to teach them? I guess you can all judge me for that but it also kind of helps you understand where Im coming from? If youre in one of these splinters like in my mind youre 100 times more like him than me so its just like my vantage point you know?
DeleteBoth sets of my grandparents, all my uncles and aunts, my mother when she was alive, all my cousins.... they all believe this stuff and to some degree after how ever many years the pissing match over whose right and whose wrong im far enough removed now that i just view it all as high comedy. So its not intended to defend or anything but you can be sure Im not going to be clicking over on the polls on this site like whose the worst or something either? I dont view any of them as evil even tho I do think theyre all completely crazy as it relates to their religious understandings?
So if you allow me to post here... I think the last thing youll find me to be is disingenous. Perhaps I should remind myself not to take a combative tone and if i come across that way please point that out so i can knock it off. Some of these comments are emotional for me its just as simple as that. Seeing your father compared over and over to hitler is just tough you know? Even years of not having any direct contact with him for a variety of reasons thats hard to read. My goal here is personal, not for him..... and if I can shed light on his impact on PEOPLE then I think my experience is pretty relevent. Wouldnt you agree? If you can agree at least to that then hopefully youll understand where Im coming from even if we dont always draw the same conclusions on the back end
Anonymous June 10 @ 5:04am - Good point. And I agree with you. The Bible condemns Dave in a very strong way. However, I will not call him "a monster" just as I would not say "raca" for the same reason.
ReplyDeleteYou probably did not watch Part 2 of my interview with Dawn Blue. I got very angry at a point when I was explaining how Dave Pack has hurt people I know. In that interview I said his words and actions were "evil" and "wicked." / "By their fruits you shall know them" and his fruits are also wrong and wicked and evil. -- Better?
Viewing Dave's teachings through the Bible lens is pretty frightening. For him. "IF you think I'm arrogant brethren, pray for me." And I did. For YEARS. He won't be able to stop himself.
Sundown Kid - Good to get your perspective and context. It further paints the full picture. True: If there was no Common, there could be no campus. Without Common STILL coming in, the campus would fold.
Glad to get some insight from the Sundown Kid. I have always felt Dave was a victim of Herbert and maybe his own ambition.
ReplyDeleteSundown, when you were at the compound, didn't you also agree with and push the Common doctrine?
ReplyDeleteMark Wolf: Dave is now a "victim"? Laughable.
LOL hell no!!!! Youre confusing me with somebody else. I quit attending wwcg in about 1992 while I was still attending AC. Never baptized never involved after about age 20. I havent believed any version of it for 30 years now and im not sure before that I was old enough to draw any conclusions other than if I didnt believe it I was gonna lose my food and my roof haha.
DeleteI have remained aware of alot of the palace intrigue since then but thats the extent of it
To be specific....when the compound/commune/campus groundbreaking was taking place maybe around 2011 or 2012??... that was the last time i went up there. I felt bad even being there.... unintentionally prancing my kids around there felt like a publicity stunt for the membership and made me feel gross to be there and at that time I flat out told him I would not be coming back. It hurt him I think but whatever. It had just got to a point where him seeing his grandkids and us watching a cavs game on tv or the indians or something didnt feel like a reason enough to go anymore. He had just gone to far down the rabbit hole you know?
I have family in all the other splinters It just is what it is. I have very limited contact with any of them altho Id say we do remain casually friendly if theres a funeral or wedding or something I will sometimes go but usually if I show up its surprising. They all know Im not involved that way. They are all good people by most peoples definitions if you keep the theology out of it. Feels like it would be the same if they were amish or mormon or something but what are you going to do right? You just move on
So yeah....I grew up in this but thats about it. Met HWA in his home many times. Every uncle I had was a minister in this thing. Majority of evangelists I knew well. It was a really really weird experience in the church for me growing up but it all ended a long time ago. My reason for posting here now is hard to decipher but this docuseries thing going on in Wadsworth and some long conversations with Marc and Dennis has made me want to speak a bit? Both of them I think highly of despite both their beliefs being about as different as can be.
I am not here to defend any aspect of whats going on up there tho. I promise you that
Mark,
ReplyDeleteClearly you do not know "Herbert" or what you refer to him as. While yes, he did have many traits that were not right, there is not one part of him that you can reference that Dave is alike him. Dave has always been Dave. He wanted to be someone for a very long time. He destroyed many people's lives well before RCG ever started. He would pick a person...and pick, pick, and pick at them. He would condemn them from the pulpit. It is my understanding that he is still doing this today. This is without just cause. He has been moved from here to there, to there because he could not be an example, light, or shepherd in congregations. Again, he is a ravenous wolf. How long have you been in the Church, Mark? Did you come into RCG? Because it is unfortunate you have not known what true love, giving or leadership is like. Dave is going to be held accountable from God leading His people away.
Mark Wolf, maybe Charles Manson was just a "victim" too. Nice logic, LOL
ReplyDeleteThe Bestest Way
ReplyDeleteIt is best never to take Dave Pack too seriously and never to give him any money.
It is much easier to feel sorry for Dave Pack for having gotten himself possessed by Satan if neither you nor anyone you care about has been lied to, deceived, robbed, left financially destitute, and spiritually destroyed by him and his bad behavior.
In my opinion, when you add doctrines about yourself to the Church, which Herbert did, when he claimed apostleship. When he claimed leading the one true church Christ established. When he created doctrines revolving around his ordination and beginning of the Radio Church of God. When you do those things you create a cult. When you teach this to young impressionable kids, which Dave was at the time, then you can destroy a person depending upon how much that person buys in. That is what I mean when I state my belief that Dave was a victim of Herbert.
ReplyDeleteAs far as me. I am just a student of the movement. I was baptized by an RCG minister that is still there I think, but that was a good 15 years ago. Was not great at "obeying" so was disfellowshipped shortly after that.
The core doctrines still intrigue me. The Armstrongism cult doctrines do not. Would consider myself more old school conservative evangelical now. But have a hard time disproving some of those old holy day/sabbath doctrines.
Right, Mark. Herb told us that the gospel had been hijacked, and somehow, at some point, was made all about Christ. I believe HWA was probably blinded to the fact that he had largely made his church all about himself, and in exactly the ways you outlined. He did the same thing he had accused "the world's" theologians of doing.
ReplyDeleteSundown Kid 8:45:00 AM PDT said:
ReplyDelete"..DCP himself inherited large sums of money from multiple family members.."
Little update for you and all on that...when I years ago spoke to those one in his family, they informed me that Dave cheated, lied and connived the inheritance business from his father and ripped off the rest of the family.
Compare him to Nazis?? . . . I agree that doesn't work.
Better comparisons for Dave would be people like
Bernie Madoff
Elizabeth Holmes
Bernie Ebbers
They knew how to rob you and make themselves look good doing it
So you spoke to somebody in the family and now your trying to update somebody else in the family who was involved intimately with all aspects of that situation to what actually happened?
DeleteI was literally managing said business for several years by the time it all went down and it was a complicated family affair. Working directly for my grandfather I had BY FAR the biggest potential influence on the outcome and imo nobody got screwed,except probably me:( There certainly wasnt any lying or conniving just some people didnt get what they wanted at that time. I left shortly thereafter and opened my own operation not far away and within a few years later absorbed it all back under a much larger umbrella including a partner business relationship with who you would have gotten your story from. Its a long complicated 30 year tale but with a very happy ending. Were all doing great and more successful than ever in longstanding harmony :)
What matters, or at least the only damn thing that should matter here.... is I have no defense for his theology or the Trump University hes running in Wadsworth. TU was a con right? Thats the con I see if we want to call it a con. Super smart man charges big bucks for people who want to be super smart themselves listening to important sounding rambling in a multiple part series. Thats what this sounds like. Your comparison for Madoff is possibly sound too. Wont deny it. Speculative but not impossible. Im not close enough to him now to know one way or the other. If DCP has intent to steal or cheat now I at least feel certain he didnt start out trying to cheat people....maybe like Madoff did he may now be realizing the betrayal and still is doubling down because theres no way out. So maybe thats DCP now. Maybe it really is. Thats hard for me to say but how can you defend it right?
I guess Id just remind that religion is a different animal then wall street. There is that at least. For as nuts as this seems to you and I and the rest of the people here theres a whole bunch of people that seem to sit there taking notes and still want to go along with it. None of Madoffs victims had that oppurtunity. That is quite a big difference. The longer this goes on the more it appears the con and the conned seem to be a team. I mean when you do a 500 part sermon series outlining exactly what your con is thats kind of a weird con you know? Never heard of a con like that before. Maybe the ones who have left over the last 10 years when all this crap wasnt even Armstrongism started coming out I can see a betrayal there. Honestly a pretty big one you know? I get how Marc can feel because he apparently sat there with actual eyes and ears and then left.....but at some point enough time goes by that eventually goes out the window. Like how can you not see this and be like oh hell no!!! Those who remain are all just taking notes soaking it in year after year eventually you gotta let the spirit hippies enjoy part 897 of the sermon series while they retire each night in paradise right?
Ok thats enough. Sorry for the rambling
Marc,
ReplyDeleteSeems to me a lot of times while reading/hearing your words that you kind of defend this Man DCP. He is a beast/monster as in frightening, strange, and cruel or (Serpent/Viper-cunning, malignant, wicked, poisonous snake, literately and figuratively. The Headquarters "Church"/flock/prey, feeding themselves and not the flock (Eze 34). With "force and with cruelty have you ruled them", consuming the flock. He has a narcissistic personality believing He is superior to others with a sense of entitlement. He has no guilt whatsoever. So, keep exposing/rebuking the fraud and hopefully soon I will see the vengeance of our Hevenly Father (Class action lawsuit for large number of individuals having been injured or wronged).
Eze 3:20
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:21
Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
1Ti 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority...
Prophesying is SPEAKING truth. SONS AND DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESY TRUTHS.
Isa 61:1
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;"
Jas 1:27
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
We need to look for this type of Assembly. Then, we can have FREEDOM IN MESSIAH.