See Useful Charts for more excellent videos by Matt Baker (former WCG member) on the Bible, its history, and related subjects. There are also many other secular subjects covered too, like genealogies of nations, royalty, historical figures, and scores of other fascinating topics through chart timelines
Baker effectively shuts down the childish high school-level research and teaching of Armstrongist Bob Thiel and his so-called historical and biblical "facts".
For some added fun check out:
Not to worry, the Anons won't watch it.
ReplyDeleteNot only that, but when you look at Ephraim and Manasseh , what is so sad is that these COGs don’t mention how they came back during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. How those tribes came back and followed the covenant at that time. These COG’s embrace a lost tribal group of Ephraim of Manasseh. They know that Chronicles and Ezra and Nehemiah were the last to write in the old testament phonologically, but they don’t want to put the scriptures together and let the bible interpret the bible as they claim to teach others.
ReplyDeleteSee:
1 Chronicles 9:1-3 So all Israel was recorded by genealogies, and indeed, they were inscribed in the book of the kings of Israel. But Judah was carried away captive to Babylon because of their unfaithfulness. And the first inhabitants who dwelt in their possessions in their cities were Israelites, priests, Levites, and the Nethinim. Now in Jerusalem the children of Judah dwelt, and some of the children of Benjamin, and of the children of Ephraim and Manasseh:
Nehemiah repeats the remnant:
Nehemiah 11:2-3 And the people blessed all the men who willingly offered themselves to dwell at Jerusalem. These are the heads of the province who dwelt in Jerusalem. (But in the cities of Judah everyone dwelt in his own possession in their cities—Israelites, priests, Levites, Nethinim, and descendants of Solomon’s servants.)
Nehemiah calls them Israelites, (they weren’t lost), and this is after both captivities.
I thought obedience was better than …… (these tribes were obedient), but they are silent on them.
Oh and what I like about this video is that he brings out Ezra 6:17 offering for all Israel twelve male goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
Why doesn’t Ezra (God’s word) just mention just “two” of the tribes, since only Judah/Benjamin tribes returned? It’s sad.
A very good summary of why Anglo-Israelism is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteTruetius maximus, R. They're thinking "How dare you try to confuse me with the facts? I'm loyal to my agenda!"
ReplyDeleteCOGlodytes like to say they prove all things, but theyll throw a hissyfit if you suggest USBIP isnt supported by history, archaeology, lingustics, genetics, etc. I offer up the recent "Neo iz just makin up werds" comment used om tbe last thread of this type, lol.
DeleteAnon 12:34:00 PM PDT
ReplyDeleteYou are so correct. There are numerous scriptures pointing out the folly of BI.
The ‘lost tribes’ did not go on to populate Britain or the US etc etc etc.
They were lost only to the extent that they were without true shepherds as Jesus pointed out.
Armstrongism is dying a slow but sure death, quickened by its adherence to the bizarre theory of BI.
On a somewhat related note, has anyone tried to do the math regarding the divided kingdoms? Jeroboam gets ten tribes, according to the text. Who are they? Reuben, Gad, Manasseh, Dan, Issachar, Naphtali, Zebulon, Asher, his own tribe Ephraim, and... well, thats nine.
ReplyDeleteSimeon? Actually south of or encapsulated within Judah. Miiiiight have been administered by the northern kingdom but that seems like a long shot.
Benjamin? Listed as being part of the kingdom of Judah, IIRC.
Levi? Never had any territory, just.cities within the nation. Did majority rules count in this case?
For an article, I once went into the Assyrian and Babylonian records of the numbers of Israelites who who had been repatriated following captivity, reviewed similar lists from Ezra and Nehemiah, I covered Samaritanization, and also numerous ones who had left the northern kingom prior to captivity so that they could continue keeping the feasts, and even went into the comments of various New Testament leaders remarking about members of the supposedly lost tribes being present in Jerusalem during Jesus' time. The fact is that you can can actually prove from the Bible that the lost tribes were never lost and left as distinct groups in some unknown place to be discovered today. They were largely lost to the assimilation process, and are considered to be Jews.
ReplyDelete"Anna, a prophet, was also there in the Temple. She was the daughter of Phanuel from the tribe of Asher, and she was very old. Her husband died when they had been married only seven years." -Luke 2:36
ReplyDeleteThe idea that Jacob, who lived around 1800 BCE, would give rise to people of three different y chromosome haplogroups is facetious. Yet, some BI fans believe he gave rise to peoples who bear haplogroup R, J and I. I could make the case but will not at this time.
ReplyDeleteIt is odd that some Armstrongists will go postal over Critical Race Theory which seeks transparency about the history of the United States and yet advocate the historical fantasy of British-Israelism. They want to deny the expansion of truth on one topic and nurture delusion on another topic for religious purposes and at the same time speak of their religion as "The Truth." Sigh.
******** Click on my icon for Disclaimer
The hypocrisy of the fake names on here who love to proclaim they don't believe in British Israelisim whilst still accepting wages and travelling expenses and only the Lord knows what else, from Church organisations who do. Happy to accept the perks whilst dissing on these ministerial invented blogs. Hypocrites.
ReplyDeleteNever have been or will be a ministurd, sorry.
DeleteOh, give it a rest, buttercup! Well over half the ministry and leading evangelists recognize for a fact that BI has no relevance for any of us today. The only people who need this to be accurate are those that have rejected Christ and need to rely upon Old Testament prophets. The New Covenant has no place for this false lie.
ReplyDelete12:34 writes:
ReplyDelete“Oh and what I like about this video is that he brings out Ezra 6:17 offering for all Israel twelve male goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
Why doesn’t Ezra (God’s word) just mention just “two” of the tribes, since only Judah/Benjamin tribes returned? It’s sad.”
Maybe Rabbi Ephraim Oratz needs to see this video, see quotes below:
Ezr 6:17b and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.
"for all Israel. Although only Judah and Benjamin returned at that time (Metsudah David). twelve. The number included those tribes who had not returned or of whom only very few came back..." (Judah J. Sloki, Revised by Rabbi Ephraim Oratz, Ezra, Soncino Books of the Bible, p.147).
Ezr 4:1 Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the LORD God of Israel;
"The author has insisted throughout these chapters [1-6] that the temple community in Palestine is the true Israel. The Temple was built by the command of God of Israel (6:14), whose name also brings closure to these chapter in 6:22. And the group that worships in this God's house has the right to call itself Israel. Although painfully small, and with representatives of only three tribes, this community is nevertheless completely Israel, it is all Israel in this place. The twelve goats for the sin offering express this catholicity" (Ralph W. Klein, The Books of Ezra & Nehemiah, NIB, Vol. 3, p.714).
Ezra 9:8 But now for a brief moment favor has been shown by the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant and to give us a secure hold within his holy place, that our God may brighten our eyes and grant us a little reviving in our slavery.
“A little grace has been granted by God to His people; a small remnant had found its weary way back to its home and had driven a single peg into its soil; a solitary ray of light was shining; a faint breath of freedom lightened their slavery. How graphically Ezra epitomizes Jewish ewxperience in these few words” (Judah J. Sloki, Revised by Rabbi Ephraim Oratz, Ezra, Soncino Books of the Bible, p.166).
Ezra 9:15b we are left a remnant that has escaped, as it is today. (ESV).
Ezr 8:15 I assembled them at the canal that flows toward Ahava, and we camped there three days. When I checked among the people and the priests, I found no Levites there. (NIV).
"Concerning Jewish life in Babylon... The biblical literature offers hints here and there that life on the whole was pleasant and the people adjusted remarkably well to their new local. This judgment is confirmed by the few cuneiform records which testify to Jewish life. Yehezek Kaufmann argues that there is no evidence of anti-Semitism among the Babylonians and that, in fact, the Jews frequently enjoyed economic well-being and even rose to high political office.
"In any case it is clear that by the time of the decree of Cyrus most of the exiled Jews were of a generation that had never known the motherland firsthand. That is, they had been born in exile; and though they thought and dreamed of Jerusalem, they were very much people of Babylon. The older generation and the idealists among them longed for home, to be sure, but it is a striking fact that Shehbazzar, Zerubbabel, and the other leaders of the first return apparently were unable to recruit a majority of the Jews to accompany them back to Judah. This is of course understandable given the relatively hospitable way of life in Babylon and the grim prospects of beginning life again in a land of death and ashes...
"Furthermore, the descendants of the urbane creative and successful Jerusalemites were undoubtedly the most inclined to remain in Babylon rather than return to what most surely would have been a radically inferior lifestyle" (Eugene H. Merrill, Kingdom of Priests, pp. 471-72, 493).
NEO writes:
ReplyDelete“Yet, some BI fans believe he gave rise to peoples who bear haplogroup R, J and I.”
Please explain what you mean in relation to Beth Long’s comment below, I have also included a couple of other comments:
"... a Y-DNA analysis shows many Jews to have Q, R1a, and R1b direct male ancestors. These are not Middle Eastern haplogroups" (Beth Long, groups.jewishgen.org/g/main/topic/70310138).
"... my project ... indicated such a presence of Jewish R1b with origins in the Middle East.... Peter Hrechdakian, the admin of the Armenian and Assyrian DNA Projects, also offers data that further confirms an established R1b presence within the geographic area that was once Assyria" (Sean Silver, groups.jewishgen.org/g/main/topic/70310138).
“Twenty years ago, a haplogroup estimate of R-M343 or R-M269 was assumed to be a marker of non-Jewish paternal ancestry. With new scientific tools, we now know that, instead, it might indicate descendance from any number of known Jewish lineages, small and large, with probable ancient origins in the Middle East, western Asia, Africa, or the Mediterranean. These geographic origins are all consistent with ancient Jewish history and migration, not indications of the large-scale introduction of recent northern or eastern European Y-DNA into the modern Jewish population.
“The Jewish R1b Project at FTDNA is the central locus for collecting and exploring the various R1b lineages and volunteer administrators who can offer expert advice on the most efficient tests to determine which lineages each Jewish R1b belongs to. In addition, the Jewish R1b Project encourages and helps with spin-off sub-projects to study more specific subclades. The only way to determine which lineage a Jewish R1b man belongs to is advanced Y chromosome testing to and the most specific, recent haplogroup downstream of R-M343 or R-M269. (A downstream haplogroup (subclade) is a smaller (newer) haplogroup that a particular SNP defines as a more recent branch of a larger, older haplogroup. For example, R-DF27 is downstream of R-P312, meaning it's a kind of "descendant" haplogroup of P312. P312 has many distinct downstream haplogroups, such as U152, L21, etc.)” https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337741839_Jewish_men_in_the_most_common_European_Y-DNA_haplogroup_a_new_narrative_for_Jewish_R1b_The_FTDNA_Jewish_R1b_Project).
sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins/2014-klyosov-article-on-jewish-dna-genealogy
“It also becomes clear why the search for the missing 10 tribes of Israel by DNA genealogy is difficult, if not impossible. For what and who should one look? Haplogroups? Haplotypes? We already have identified at least three haplogroups that may belong to the Y-DNA line of the Biblical Abraham, and hence the 12 tribes of Israel - J1, J2 and R1a” (sites.google.com/site/levitedna/origins/2014-klyosov-article-on-jewish-dna-genealogy).
I liked the presentation, but the motivation for the belief was not racist (though the belief itself can be thought as such). The motivation was to add further weight to our still being under the Law. By claiming we are Israel, wcg could better, though falsely, claim we too are people of “the covenant” of Sinai.
ReplyDeleteimninalu.net, a Jewish website, also has a good refutation og British Israelism. It also has a lot of interesting articles on other ancient people and their modern day descendants.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 12:40
ReplyDeleteI have explained this before. The Jews are not natively haplogroup R or Q or E based on their genetics and genealogy. I don't feel much inclined to go through it again and I can't find my earlier articles using the search engine on this blog or I would give you a reference. The material you cite is not what you think it is. Beth Long is looking at Ashkenazi and many of them do have Q and R direct male ancestors due to intermarriage with Gentiles. Ashkenazi are 30 to 70 percent European. I also did an article indicating that the archaeogentics of the Assyrians indicates that they are also haplogroup J as are the Jews. One day I will write another article or find the old articles. In the meantime go ahead a believe what you believe.
******** Click on my icon for Disclaimer.
To Anonymous 12:39
ReplyDeleteThe Bible doesn't say a few. That's just what you want to believe
1 Chronicles 9:1-3 So all Israel was recorded by genealogies, and indeed, they were inscribed in the book of the kings of Israel. But Judah was carried away captive to Babylon because of their unfaithfulness. And the first inhabitants who dwelt in their possessions in their cities were Israelites, priests, Levites, and the Nethinim. Now in Jerusalem the children of Judah dwelt, and some of the children of Benjamin, and of the children of Ephraim and Manasseh
Nehemiah repeats the remnant:
Nehemiah 11:2-3 And the people blessed all the men who willingly offered themselves to dwell at Jerusalem. These are the heads of the province who dwelt in Jerusalem. (But in the cities of Judah everyone dwelt in his own possession in their cities—Israelites, priests, Levites, Nethinim, and descendants of Solomon’s servants.)
Again, your focus are the lost tribes, not the ones that returned and obeyed the Lord. Nehemiah clearly separates Israelites from Judah and Benjamin in this listing and the verses that follow. Chronicles actually mentions the two tribes that correlates to Israelites. FUNNY
In conclusion BI has nothing to do with forgiveness, reconciliation, justification, sanctification, and ultimate salvation of the soul. But you keep thinking that it's so important to you. If it makes you happy so be it.
8:18 writes:
ReplyDelete“Chronicles actually mentions the two tribes that correlates to Israelites. FUNNY”
Why is this funny in light of the history of the divided kingdom?
2Ch 11:14 The Levites even abandoned their pasturelands and property, and came to Judah and Jerusalem because Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them as priests of the LORD.
2Ch 11:16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the LORD, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the LORD, the God of their fathers.
2Ch 11:17 They strengthened the kingdom of Judah and supported Rehoboam son of Solomon three years, walking in the ways of David and Solomon during this time.
2Ch 15:9 And he [Asa, 910-869 B.C.] gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and the strangers with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that the LORD his God was with him.
"The Chronicler's concern with "all Israel" is one of his most pervasive themes; from the vantage point of the post-exilic community, he had not simply written them off. Here Asa enjoys the loyalty of many Northerners, as had Rehoboam before Him (11:13-17). The Chronicler speaks of actions in the North on the part of several of the kings of Judah. Asa's son Jehoshaphat ... sent a teaching delegation to the North (19:4). Hezekiah invited Israelites from Beersheba to Dan to celebrate the Passover (30:5, 11); Josiah's reforms reached into "Ephraim, Manesseh, Simeon, and as far as Naphtali" (34:6; cf. 34:21, 33)" (Raymond B. Dillard, 2 Chronicles, WBC, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1987), p.121).
A modern analogy, for those of the northern kingdom who joined with the southern kingdom of Israel, when the country divided after the death of Solomon - a split in the former Solomonic Empire - was the American- and British-born Royalist American colonists who remained loyal to Great Britain and King George and moved to other parts of the British Empire as the result of the secession of the thirteen colonies from the British Empire. It is estimated that 46,000, about 1.5% of the US population of 3 million in 1783, moved to Canada.
8:18 also writes:
“In conclusion BI has nothing to do with forgiveness, reconciliation, justification, sanctification, and ultimate salvation of the soul.”
I agree.
8:18 again writes:
“The Bible doesn't say a few.”
Please explain.
A couple of observations:
1Ch 9:1b The people of Judah were taken captive to Babylon because of their unfaithfulness.
1Ch 9:2 Now the first to resettle on their own property in their own towns were some Israelites, priests, Levites and temple servants.
1Ch 9:3 Those from Judah, from Benjamin, and from Ephraim and Manasseh who lived in Jerusalem were: (NIV)
"After the Chronicler's presentation of the great Israelite genealogy [pre-exilic] in 1 Chronicles 2-8, we now come to the time of the Chronicler himself. He bridges the gap from the downfall of Judah and Jerusalem to the resettlement in the land in two brief sentences (9:1b-2)" (Louis C. Jonker, 1 & 2 Chronicles, UBCS, p.78).
(The 'athnach is under Israel in v.1, noting the major verse division).
1 Chr 9:6b The people from Judah numbered 690.
1Ch 9:9 The people from Benjamin, as listed in their genealogy, numbered 956. All these men were heads of their families.
1Ch 9:34 All these were heads of Levite families, chiefs as listed in their genealogy, and they lived in Jerusalem.
“The following verses then list the descendants of Judah and Benjamin, but no descendants for Ephraim and Manasseh..." (Louis C. Jonker, 1 & 2 Chronicles, UBCS, p.79).
To Anon 3:07
ReplyDeleteAgain, your premise is to prove physical Israel during the new testament age is ridiculous. So thank you again for being on the site and being triggered by the topic, spending your time on something you don’t agree with.
The wonderful thing about Paul as you mentioned in a previous post, about the Jer. 31:31-34, is that we all know that takes place in the millennium. But Paul quotes the passage to the jewish Christians in Hebrews 8:10 and Hebrews 10:!6 as a means of conversion under the New Covenant. YOU use Jer. 31:31 as a means of justifying physical Israel, while Paul uses it as a means of conversion. Two different approaches, two different attitudes. Paul uses the internalization of God’s Law to the Gentiles as well Romans 2:!5 & Romans 7:25 & 2 Cor. 3:3). HE even tells them that they are the Israel of God (Gal 6:16) AND YOU WOULD HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. This is why Christ told the Laodicean era to put the eye salve on the eye because you’re focusing on the physical (rev 3:18).
The Israelites in Chronicles/Nehamiah blended in within the area. That’s why you would have Anna still being in Jerusalem from the tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36-38)
As the Hebrews should have been eating strong meat. He tells them that there is no continuing city (physical), no longer a levitical priesthood (physical, no longer animal sacrifices (physical). And the internalization of God’s Law.
The prophets mention a remnant of Israel (physical) during the millennium (Isaiah 66:21) and in the great white throne judgement (remember the levitical system is done away with after Christ became High Priest. BUT YOU GUYS HAVE ALREADY MADE IT INTO THE KINGDOM, YOU ARE ALREADY SAVED, YOU ALREADY QUALIFIED AND MADE IT INTO THE FIRST RESURRECTION. SO YOU CAN NOW PUT ISRAEL BACK TOGETHER AGAIN LIKE HUMPTY DUMPTY.
How about qualify yourself and try and make it into God’s Kingdom (Family) first. The resurrected David and the apostles and others will work on saving Israel on God’s time. Not on Armstrong’s time.
So again, what nation did the Levites make up since they are apart of the 144,000? And where are they today being sealed with the Holy Spirit. As GTA would say also you can’t name one christian organization that has 12,000 Jews from the tribe of Judah that are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Again, you use your verses to justify physical Israel, meanwhile the apostles wrote to focus on conversion.
In speaking to the spiritual Levites of his day, even Peter mention a people who were not God’s people but now are God’s people due to conversion. V.10
1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
The FUNNY thing is: How you guys love using these extra non biblical sources to justify your position. Just use the Bible. Because when it's a doctrine that you oppose that other denominations use extra non biblical sources, you say "that's not God's word and it's not inspired". FUNNY
Hi 1:28
ReplyDeleteLot of points to address in your reply; but I only want to address one. Hopefully we can agree to disagree on our understandings.
You write:
“... no longer a levitical priesthood (physical, no longer animal sacrifices (physical)... remember the levitical system is done away with after Christ became High Priest.
I disagree; the Levitical priesthood has not been done away with and nor have animal sacrifices.
Heb 7:12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.
Heb 8:4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
For the success of the Messianic Age there needs to be two priesthoods - one in heaven, which does not require you to be a Levite; and one on the earth, which does require you to be a Levite.
Jer 33:19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah:
Jer 33:20 “This is what the LORD says: ‘If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time,
Jer 33:21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne.
The covenant with day and night has not been broken so God’s covenant with Levi has not been broken.
Eze 40:46 and the room facing north is for the priests who have charge of the altar. These are the sons of Zadok, who are the only Levites who may draw near to the LORD to minister before him.”
Eze 43:19 You are to give a young bull as a sin offering to the priests, who are Levites, of the family of Zadok, who come near to minister before me, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Eze 44:10 “ ‘The Levites who went far from me when Israel went astray and who wandered from me after their idols must bear the consequences of their sin.
Eze 44:15 “ ‘But the priests, who are Levites and descendants of Zadok and who faithfully carried out the duties of my sanctuary when the Israelites went astray from me, are to come near to minister before me; they are to stand before me to offer sacrifices of fat and blood, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Eze 45:5 An area 25,000 cubits long and 10,000 cubits wide will belong to the Levites, who serve in the temple, as their possession for towns to live in.
Eze 48:11 This will be for the consecrated priests, the Zadokites, who were faithful in serving me and did not go astray as the Levites did when the Israelites went astray.
Eze 48:12 It will be a special gift to them from the sacred portion of the land, a most holy portion, bordering the territory of the Levites.
Eze 48:13 “Alongside the territory of the priests, the Levites will have an allotment 25,000 cubits long and 10,000 cubits wide. Its total length will be 25,000 cubits and its width 10,000 cubits.
Eze 48:22 So the property of the Levites and the property of the city will lie in the center of the area that belongs to the prince. The area belonging to the prince will lie between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin.
Eze 20:40 For on my holy mountain, the high mountain of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD, there in the land the entire house of Israel will serve me, and there I will accept them. There I will require your offerings and your choice gifts, along with all your holy sacrifices.
Eze 45:21 “ ‘In the first month on the fourteenth day you are to observe the Passover, a feast lasting seven days, during which you shall eat bread made without yeast.
Eze 45:22 On that day the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.
In the Messianic Age animal sacrifices will be required, hence the need for a Levitical priesthood. It is of note that the Passover sacrifice is now a public sin offering [better purification offering].
Okay Annon 2:44:00
ReplyDeleteYea, Great points indeed!!! And you are correct to disagree. And the three verses in Jeremiah 33:18,21,22 that mention Levites I already know and considered giving them before. (the have to do with God’s people throughout the ages)
Regardless of there being two priesthoods. The individuals worthy to be priest and carry out the priestly duties in the millennium DON’T HAVE TO BE FROM THE TRIBE OF LEVI. Those who qualify for the kingdom will be kings and “priest” from all over the world (revelation 5:9-10). Notice that they were redeemed from the BLOOD of Christ in verse 9, so they were not redeemed by the levitical system. Also they come from every tribe and TONGUE (not just english speaking peoples) and nation.
And since they are reigning (as priest) on earth (during the millennium), it didn’t require them to be Levites. And even Christ who is from the tribe of Judah, He doesn’t descend from Levi, but He is High Priest (Hebrews 7:14)
That’s the main gist of my point, that all this “descended peoples” rhetoric that is futile when considering entrance into God’s family. That is what this post is originally about. Again show me where there 12,000 Levites on this earth that are sealed with God’s Holy Spirit. Or show me 12,000 Jews who are Christians in a Church of God group.
What I meant by being down away with, I meant currently now. Since Christ will purify the sons of Levi (Malachi 3:3) during the new testament age. Daniel makes a clear distinction of those who “understand” (Daniel 11;33;35) and those implementing the daily sacrifices (who did not accept Christ sacrifice).
We must discern the sign of the times. I’m not concerning myself with a priesthood that is not in currently effect. Christ shed blood will suffice for me. I’m not trying to rule over others yet, I have to battle with ruling myself.
Hi 8:52, thanks for the response. Just a couple of points (in two parts) of my understanding:
ReplyDeleteRev 2:13 I know where you live - where Satan has his throne... your city - where Satan lives. (NIV).
While the saints will “reign on the earth,” they will not be literally on the earth; just as Satan was not living and reigning in Pergamum in the first century.
My favourite Biblical observation, for understanding this key concept of the ancient near East, was by a woman, a gentile woman at that:
2Ch 9:8 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy ... to do judgment and justice.
When the angel says that Christ will be given “the throne of his father David And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever” he will not be literally ruling on the throne during the Millennium. After the end of the second half of His prophetic week He will delegate that rule to his relatives, who will rule for Him.
A related concept is the “principle of agency”. The accounts of the encounter of Christ and the centurion are revealing:
Mt 8:5b there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mt 8:8a The centurion answered and said,
Mt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way;
From Luke’s account it is seen that Christ and the centurion never met face to face nor spoke to one another. The centurion spoke to Christ through his “agents”.
Ge 19:18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord [Adōnāy - used by the MT only to refer to God]:
In the ancient world a person's agent, or agents, where regarded as the person himself. So Christ could say to Thomas “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. So in Matthew’s account seeing the centurion agents was seeing the centurion.
Eze 43:5 the glory of the LORD filled the house.
Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever
My favourite seven and half verses in the Bible are Ezekiel 43:1-7a. Just as in the old covenant, when the Davidic kings sat on the throne of David and ruled for Christ, or were meant to, Christ had a dwelling presence in Solomon’s Temple, so in the Millennium Christ will once again dwell in the holy of holies, in Ezekiel’s Temple.
(God had a “dwelling presence” in Solomon’s Temple through his agent the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ; and so again, Christ will be God’s agent ‘dwelling’ in the Millennial Temple).
As certain sins (those atoned for by the sin/purification offering) and severe ritual impurity are dynamic and are attracted to the holy, blood of animal sacrifices will be required to purify the Temple (cp. Eze 45:19-20), to maintain Christ’s dwelling presence in the Temple.
Under the old covenant with Israel there were two covenants within that covenant - the Davidic and the Levitical - kings and priests. In the new covenant with Israel there will be the Davidic and Levitcal covenants as per Jeremiah in previous post. But there will be, and is now is, a covenant with the Church who will also be kings and priests (Rev 5:10) in the renewed covenant - in essence a combining of the two roles in one ‘person’.
Ge 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem ... the priest of the most high God.
Priests of the order of Melchizedek are also kings.
As there will be human kings and priests on the earth there is no need for ‘spirit’ kings and priests, at least in the terrestrial realm of the earth.
Nu 18:20 Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them...
So just as the Levites had “no part among” the children of Israel in inherited land, the saints as spirit-beings will have no ‘inheritance with human-beings. Once changed to ‘spirit’ the spiritual realm is now home; only on rare occasions do spirit-beings enter the terrestrial realm.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteEph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in the heavenlies
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus:
(2:6 is a prolepsis: “the representation of a thing as existing before it actually does or did so”).
Christ and the saints, as members of the kingdom of God/Light, a kingdom that flesh and blood cannot inherit, will replace Satan and the demons in the heavenlies being ‘good' principalities, powers, and rulers. This is the kingly role of the saints. The Mount Zion of Rev 14:1 is the heavenly Mount Zion.
(David capturing the Jebusite stronghold which then became the city of David, is the type for his greater Son).
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:17... the Lamb ... is in the midst of the throne
The above pictures the priestly role of the saints in the Temple in heaven during the Millennium.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
As one went up from the earthly City of David to the Temple, so one goes up from the heavenly city/heavenlies to the heavenly Holy of Holies - in the book of Hebrews heaven is the holy of holies (9:24).
I have to go now as there are a couple people in white coats knocking at the front door.
BTW
Jdg 2:16 Nevertheless the LORD RAISED UP [QUM] judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them.
Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will RAISE UP [QUM] unto them.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd:
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant
Referring to the Messiah/Christ as David is an antonomasia:
"the use of the name of a person who was distinguished by a particular characteristic, as Don Juan or Annie Oakley, to designate a person or group of persons having the same characteristic" ictionary.com/browse/antonomasia).
David, seventh or eighth son of Jesse, is a type of the greater/true David, the antitype.
Hello again Anon 3:31
ReplyDeleteSee you’re trying to change the subject. This topic isn’t about the priestly roles in the Kingdom of God (which I’ve heard your stance in a sermon or two in my lifetime). You act as though you are already in God’s Kingdom. But I’m not getting into what sacrifices or offerings are made during that particular time, that’s a different era.
I do know this, when Daniel was in captivity, he offered his prayer during the morning and evening offering. (Daniel 9:21). Again Judah was in captivity and Daniel’s spiritual offering was accepted. And the offerings will correspond to the prayers, see Isaiah 56:7.
The title of the video and the subject post is “Debunking British Israelism”
So where we disagree is; what your “heart of focus” is. Also it sounds like you’re a British man, so I sense the sensitivity. But the heart of focus should be in seeking God’s Kingdom & His Righteousness (Matt 6:33).
The issue with COG groups is that you have this “tribal nationality Christianity.” See Peter when he wrote to a diaspora or scattered group of people throughout Asia Minor, he said that they were a spiritual royal priesthood or a holy nation. 1 Peter 2:9
The other issue that I have is about your application to how Israel (Physical) is to be saved. So yes, it's a remnant because the majority are not called or chosen.
1. They have to go through a conversion process. (This is what you guys leave out most of the time like in your booklets).
2. Ezekiel 36:27 Israel is given God’s Spirit to keep His statutes and judgments during the millennium.
3. Great white Throne Judgment (Israel & Judah is also given God’s Spirit Ezekiel 37:14.
So just like God is not trying to save the world now, He’s not trying to save Israel now!
SO AGAIN: Two Things are presented here (Rev 7:4-8): 1 They are represented as the “tribes of Israel” (in a sense), 2. They are converted being sealed with God’s Holy Spirit.
COG groups focus on the tribes being nations, but at the same time claiming that they are the only people of God?? So where are 12,000 French peoples in your COG group, 12,000 Jews that are in your COG group, 12,000 Levites ARE NOW in a COG group. Again what nation did the Levites make up during the end time? Not understanding that the thing is Spiritual. Just like Babylon is no longer Iraq, it’s spiritual Babylon.
See John already saw diverse people making it into the first resurrection and into the Kingdom (Rev 5:8-10). There’s nothing you or I can do about it. It’s already been recorded and written. This also corresponds with their conversion of internalizing God’s Law with His Spirit found in Romans 2:27-29.
Physical Israel has to be converted first, because they weren’t and still can’t understand the two greatest commandments that hang on all the Law. Physical Israel has the spirit of having respect of persons and prejudice.
I’ll leave you with the Apostle Paul the Benjaminite:
Romans 9:8 This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children. (NLT)
This corresponds with Christ said:
Matthew 8:11-12 And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world—from east and west—and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (NLT)
Sometimes the New Living Translation brings it out more. Our disagreement to agree has to do with the conversion timeframe of "Israel" and what is most important in this current era.