Anglo-Israelism ISN'T A Harmless Belief!
When confronted with the fact that Anglo-Israelism has been thoroughly discredited, I've heard numerous Armstrongites over the years justify its continued toleration among them by declaring "Oh well, it's not a matter of salvation anyway!" Now, while this statement is certainly true, it leaves one with the distinct impression that we shouldn't get our panties in a bunch over someone's acceptance of the teaching. Is that, however, the correct way for us to treat this heretical belief? Should we simply shrug our shoulders and walk away? In the final analysis, is Anglo-Israelism a harmless delusion?
From the title which I have chosen for this post, you already know my answer to that question! You, however, may still be wondering why I'm so interested in labeling this belief as harmful. In other words, what is/are my reason(s) for singling out this doctrine as being detrimental to Christians?
In enumerating my justifications for designating this teaching as harmful, I think it is important to begin with what this doctrine does to the way that we perceive Almighty God. In short, Anglo-Israelism distorts our view of God. The teaching portrays God as hiding the identity of his people from the world. In other words, according to this doctrine, God has intentionally deceived both his own people and the other peoples of the world about the "true" identity of the children of Israel! Hence, we can see that this doctrine implies that God is a controlling, interventionist, manipulative, secretive, and deceptive entity. Is such a view of God consistent with what is revealed about him in Scripture? I don't think so.
In similar fashion, this pernicious teaching distorts one's understanding of a number of other very important areas of the Christian faith. For instance, Anglo-Israelism engenders in its adherents a false sense of their own spiritual understanding and status as a Christian. Many of the folks who hold this belief feel like they're in on God's secret - that they have an inside edge on other folks. Indeed, many of them believe that their understanding of the identity of modern Israel is one of the very things which identifies them as a Christian!
Along the same lines, we should point out that this teaching distorts one's understanding of biblical prophecy. The identification of the English-speaking peoples of the earth as the modern-day descendants of Israel causes these folks to misapply all of the prophecies that were directed at ancient Israel! In other words, this teaching causes these folks to misapply God's messages to Israel through Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, etc. to the peoples of the United States and British Commonwealth. Hence, the entire premise of their interpretation of biblical prophecy is flawed and leads them to erroneous conclusions about what the Bible predicts for both our own time and the future!
It should also be pointed out that this distortion of prophetic understanding has led to the distortion of their understanding of the Christian message! Instead of a message focused on Christ and salvation through him, these folks are focused on a warning message for the English-speaking peoples of the world! Instead of fulfilling the Great Commission which Christ gave to his Church before his ascension into heaven, they are busily occupying their time and energy by being the "watchman" of Israel! If that doesn't qualify as a serious distortion of God's intention and will, I don't know what does!
In the same vein, Anglo-Israelism also distorts and devalues the universal nature of Christianity. What? You remember what Paul wrote to the Galatians and Colossians don't you? He told them that there is neither Jew nor Greek in the Christian faith - that we are all ONE in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11). Moreover, in the Gospel of Matthew, we are informed that Christ instructed his disciples to "teach ALL nations," NOT just the Israelite ones! (28:19) Likewise, this Israel-centric approach distorts and devalues Christ's role in bringing salvation to all of humankind and reigning as the universal ruler of the Kingdom of God!
Finally, Anglo-Israelism distorts a number of other understandings that are very important to the way someone who professes to be a follower of Jesus Christ should view the world. This teaching distorts a Christian's understanding of race/ethnicity. Instead of seeing humankind as being of one blood, it reinforces the view that God has intentionally favored one people over all others - that the advantages enjoyed by the English-speaking peoples of the earth were God ordained! This has, in turn, led to a sense of superiority - a sense of being exceptional among all of the peoples of the earth. In similar fashion, this has distorted the perceptions of many adherents of Anglo-Israelism regarding history more generally speaking - both their own history and those of the other peoples of the earth. Moreover, this pernicious teaching has also made a significant contribution to the disdain that these folks have for science and human expertise. In short, the rejection of genetic, archaeological, and linguistic evidence which contradicts this teaching has further alienated these folks from reality and the ability to think logically.
Hence, we can see that Anglo-Israelism is NOT a harmless delusion! The spiritual consequences of adhering to this heretical teaching are serious and far-reaching. Thus, while it may be technically correct to say that this isn't a matter of salvation, it would be foolish to dismiss this as a "harmless" diversion.
Posted by Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix
The biggest danger of BI is that it takes the focus off of the grace of God, and and focuses on you being a member of a racial group. The New Testament teaches we're spiritual Israel by God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteWatching COGdom pick through the prophets for "duality" can be very annoying. Most of the OT prophets lived in a time when Israel and/or Judah were living between two great powers (Egypt and Assyria) and the historical aspects of the prophets' writings are just fascinating sometimes. You lose that when you yank a verse or two out of its context and try to say it's about the Western nations, like Bob Thiel and his constant requoting of the "Will not your creditors rise against you..." verse.
ReplyDeleteIm starting my own cult too!
ReplyDeleteWrite for my new book ...URUGUAY ISRAELISM !
I disagree with you on one issue Lonnie. BI does impact one's salvation. All the cog members and leaders believing they are a lost Israelite tribe, ties them inextricably to the law. That, to my understanding, is why they believe they MUST keep the 10 commandments (and some of the 613 others in the Torah) and celebrate the Jewish holy days and keep the Sabbath, etc. It is crystal clear that whether Jew or Gentile, all who receive Jesus as their Savior, are not under the law. Any who cling to that law, due to belief in BI, have severed themselves from the Body of Christ and fallen from the Grace of God. If that isn't salvivic, I don't know what is.
ReplyDeleteBI is the root of every false doctrine these groups teach. Even if it were true, which it is not, but even if it were and even if one believes it, for the life of me, I cannot understand why they won't see that there is no more separation of Jew/Gentile. On our side of the Cross, it is only Jesus who saves a believer, not the law. Not a single Apostle in the New Testament told any audience, Jew or otherwise, to keep the Commandments of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was fulfilled by Jesus and we have transitioned to the New Covenant, again, whether Jew or Gentile. They taught that faith in Jesus alone and His fulfilling all 613 of the OC laws and statutes, saves us and the indwelling Holy Spirit guides us to keep His Commandments...a totally different command. I think the average cog member sees, "if you love me keep my Commandments" and automatically thinks these mean the 10 of the Mosaic law. Very different from the OC, but I don't think they see that. As long as they cling to BI and the OC, they cannot be saved. Please read your Bibles current cog members. This is what it means to rightly divide it. For all people, everywhere, there was a transition once Jesus died and rose again. Where there is a change in the priesthood, there is by necessity a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12). I pray some will see this..eventually.
BI certainly explains why my Australia is an Anglo-Saxon possession. Indonesia for example has over 200 million people on its over crowded islands, yet the large continent of Australia has only 26 million. Australia sticks out like a sore thumb. God obviously kept the Asians away for thousands of years in order to fulfil His promise to Abraham.
ReplyDelete“When confronted with the fact that Anglo-Israelism has been thoroughly discredited....” -- MJ/LCH
ReplyDeleteThe world is full of all sorts of religious and irreligious people saying all sorts of things. They say that what they believe, or want to believe, has been proven. They say that what they do not believe, or do not want to believe, has been debunked or discredited or “fact checked.” The world is full of incredible religious and irreligious confusion, so what is true and what is false has not yet been satisfactorily resolved.
The idea behind the USA and Britain in Prophecy was that God gave the USA and Britain great material blessings. The USA and Britain also had the Bible, which they translated into various languages and spread all around the world.
Now, the USA and Britain are rejecting the Bible, the laws of God, and even God. The USA and Britain are currently descending into complete nonsense and utter depravity. Rather than spreading the Bible around the world, the USA and Britain are now trying to spread anti-God depravity to other nations. Interestingly, Russia is currently trying to resist some of this western depravity.
Next comes God's withdrawal of His blessings and God's sending of serious national punishment on the USA and Britain.
Nowadays, many people are starting to rage away against the USA and Britain and Anglo-Israelism.
The irony is that the USA and Britain were neither Sabbath keepers or COGlodytes. The religiously-affiliated among them were beholden to "Mystery Babylon's harlot daughters". They didn't receive "great material blessings" because of their godliness - according to BI, they received it because of their supposed ancestry!
DeleteBI was taught as a salvation issue because the doctrine taught that BI nations were Israelite nations and were therefore under the Old Covenant and had to keep the law. They were not Gentiles and were therefore not covered by the Acts15 conference. Mystery of the Ages states that the New Covenant is not in force now and will not be in force initially for Gentile nations even after Jesus’s return. COGWA still holds to this teaching officially. I imagine most of the other COGs do as well.
ReplyDeleteWhile I would agree with DW's characterization of the Christian's complete dependence on Jesus Christ for our salvation, and that we are no longer obligated to observe the dos and don'ts outlined in the Torah, I disagree with the premise that knowledge is what does or doesn't make us a Christian (that's a Herbie notion). According to Scripture, a person must repent of their sins, accept the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice on his or her behalf, receive God's Spirit, and live a life of loving others. What one believes about the Law, Sabbath observance, Christmas, what happens when we die, transubstantiation, etc. does NOT having anything to do with whether or not you are a Christian - PERIOD! Our beliefs do NOT alter God's reality or plans in ANY way! Even so, our beliefs can be very destructive of our spiritual understanding and behavior (as I believe this post demonstrates). We must not forget that Christians in the First Century exhibited a wide range of beliefs and behaviors and still managed to accept each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. After all, if our stances on these peripheral doctrinal issues are disqualifying, then salvation is conditional - not entirely dependent on Christ's work!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 12/8 @ 9:30,
May I suggest the following post in response to your above comments:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2022/11/the-golden-age-of-righteousness.html
No, it hasn't been discredited, but in the delusions of the scoffers.
ReplyDeleteIt is crucial to understand where the descendants are to have any - ANY - comprehension of prophecy. Those that reject it understand very little, and set upside down the little that they do know.
There is a simple, elegant proof that totally discredits Anglo-Israelism. Archaeogenetics is able to identify by y chromosome haplogroup the various migrations of peoples into Western Europe and the Middle East. Here is what it looks like in both arenas from the earliest to the latest migrations:
ReplyDeleteFor Western Europe:
Haplogroup I - Hunter Gatherers - Scandinavians and others
Haplogroup G - Farmers - small populations in various European countries
Haplogroup R - Steppe pastoralists - The Western and Eastern Europeans including Britain
and other Northwest European countries
For the Middle East
Haplogroup E - North Africans, Egyptians, Berbers
Haplogroup T - now scattered
Haplogroup J - Jews, Arabs
What you will notice is that there is no haplogroup R found in great numbers in ancient burials in the Middle East. The British (and other Northwest Europeans) never lived in the Middle East. If they had lived in the Middle East, there would be a rich layer of haplogroup R skeletons in burials in the territory of the ten tribes. There isn't.
Armstrongist organizations that want to spend money on archaeological projects in Palestine should tackle this seeming paradox first. They need to explain why the Western Europeans left no bones in Palestine. Once they successfully explain this, they can credibly move on to other projects.
A good article to read is:
"Ancient DNA from Chalcolithic Israel reveals the role of population mixture in cultural transformation," published in Nature Communications, 2018.
Lonnie is right. BI is mostly about the prideful heart.
Not to worry, I'm sure you'll get the "I don't know what that means and I won't look into it because the chances are high I'll get deceived." If only they'd had that attitude with COG writings, lol.
Delete"Mystery of the Ages states that the New Covenant is not in force now and will not be in force initially for Gentile nations even after Jesus’s return. COGWA still holds to this teaching officially. I imagine most of the other COGs do as well."
ReplyDeleteIt would be helpful if Anon 11:10 could give some sort of documentation for these statements. Where for example is this stated in the Mystery of the Ages, or at least which chapter? Also, is there any official COGWA doctrinal statement, or article, etc. that would support the above?
Thanks!
5:27,
DeleteI’ll provide one such reference. in ch.7 of Mystery of the Ages the first lines under “What is th New Covenant”:
“ In short, under the New Covenant, which Christ is coming to usher in, what we shall see on earth is happiness, peace, abundance and justice for all.”
Each COG that does not believe this should say so. Ralph Levy quietly said that cogwa does not believe the teaching in Mystery of the Ages that Noah will separate all the different races in the Millennium. But, I’ve not actually seen the official repudiation.
It’s well past time for the COGs to own up to their teachings rather than simply say, “we must hold fast to the Truth” without addressing their teachings.
What do they believe? What don’t they believe? They know they will either have to repudiate a vast number of teachings or defend them ineffectively.
SO, instead, they take the cowardly and disingenuous approach of not addressing many of their beliefs while at the same time saying “we have the Truth”.
This is both dishonest and deceitful.
Shame on them.
3.22 PM
ReplyDeleteIf you want to come here and set up a DNA riddle, that's fine. But it's not OK to expect your readers to jump through loops mastering a complex technical topic so that they can answer your riddle. They do not "need to explain why.." or "successful explain this.." so they "can credibly move on to other projects."
We can ignore your riddle and happily move on.
That "prove all things" didn't resonate so well with you, eh?
DeleteCults have to have exclusive knowledge that the "outside world" doesn't have to prove that they are the true chosen ones. This is just one of the techniques used to snare people in. BI is just one of those doctrines that are only understood by the "true believers." It is also racialist which the COG certainly was & probably still is. I can remember when black brethren were not allowed to wash white feet at Passover time.
ReplyDeleteWell Lonnie, spoken like a true Protestant.
ReplyDelete" Instead of seeing humankind as being of one blood, it reinforces the view that God has intentionally favored one people over all others - that the advantages enjoyed by the English-speaking peoples of the earth were God ordained!"
God did favor one people over all others, and He is using them to bless all others, but you can't see that. Remember, a "people" is not a race, but a collection of individuals. It can be of many races. It's obvious that your thinking is contaminated by the world's way. Mankind is of one blood, which destroys your argument that somehow BI is a racist belief. You will see it, one day.
About ten years ago, I watched a well produced, well documented PBS show on Christianity. It referred retrospectively to the first centuries AD (or CE) as being a time in which the teachings of Jesus Christ transitioned from being limited to an exclusively Jewish setting, and proved to have a greater application, also being fully functional in a wide variety of cultural settings. Christianity, during that period of tremendous growth, became a world class religion. Peter's vision of the heretofore "unclean things", aided by the work of Paul, opened participation to the gentiles, all of the non-Jewish peoples around the world.
ReplyDeleteThe core problem with Armstrongian theology has always been Herbert's conspiracy theory regarding Simon Magus and an allegedly "lost century" during which time the church was supposedly hijacked, even though passages in the New Testament, and actual existing history (primary sources directly from the first century) counter this idea. Irenaeus in particular vehemently counters this. HWA's church, had it existed in the first century would have been considered to be the "Judaizers", alternatively known as the "circumcision party", whose members insisted that in order to become a Christian, one must first become a Jew. This is why the theory of British or Anglo Israelism has remained so important within the Armstrong context, although actually countered by the writings of Paul, who considered Jewish heretage to be inconsequential.
Schools of thought in which racial groups are treated either as superior or inferior are considered to be racist at worst, or chauvinistic at the very least. This is in many ways a limitation, a byproduct of small mindedness which limits understanding. Armstrongism, with HWA's nearly nonexistent understanding of genetics, limits God's promises to Abraham to those he taught were the physical spawn of Abraham, the lost Israelites. Traditional teachers of Christianity have recognized Jesus Christ as being the spawn of Abraham, and Jesus' followers, the Christians, as therefore being heirs to the promises to Abraham. This expands the concept from its physical limitations, and becomes a spiritual thing potentially encompassing all of humanity. It is the antithesis of racism, and would appear to more adequately reflect God's own attitude towards all of His children.
Lonnie, that was exactly my point. Salvation is unconditional based on what you stated in your comments above. But BI leads cog members to rely on other things, either to receive and/or maintain their salvation. That is what was distinctly rebuked by the Apostles. That mindset of law keeping/holy days, etc, is the epitome of saying that Jesus did not entirely fulfill every last law, ordinance and statute of the Old Covenant. And that is where I think so many get a bit lost. Cogdom bringing in Jewish ties also pettifogs the issue. The Jews are still waiting for His first appearing and the Christians await His second. So where does that leave the believers in BI, doctrinally speaking?
ReplyDeleteI could not agree with you more, that it is our belief in Him and His completed Work that saves someone. That and that alone. Hence my argument that adding to, or changing in any way that finished Work of Jesus can change Who/who we are putting our faith in, hence can impinge on salvation. It is believing the Gospel of the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, according to the Scriptures, that is our sole means of salvation and to change or add to that in any way whatsoever, changes "who" our faith is in. It's potentially another Jesus and another gospel.
I agree with you 99.999% of the time. On this one, we see it slightly differently. I look forward to hashing it out with you in eternity!
You know a deceived person doesn’t know that they are deceived. The error of BI is: People will tend to believe that they are better than the “non Israelite people” in the same church organization. This is pride, and God gives grace to the humble. He resist the proud. And pride comes before the fall. So Worldwide fell, and they still haven’t learned their lesson.
ReplyDeleteIt’s hard having the proper relationship with your neighbor when you “believe” that you are God’s chosen people, but they guy across the isle is not. Especially when the church NOW is the Israel of God (Gal 6:16) which includes gentiles.
Anonymous 1:27 said: "But it's not OK to expect your readers to jump through loops mastering a complex technical topic so that they can answer your riddle."
ReplyDeleteSo let me simplify it for you. BI predicts that we should find the skeletons of ancient Western Europeans buried in the ground in Palestine. Not hard to understand. Science has found there are no such skeletons. Therefore, BI is totally and demonstrably false.
If you simply cast this aside and move on, you move on into willfull ignorance. And one day you get to explain to God why you spat in the face of the truth. It's very simple.
Anonymous at 5:43 AM said...“Ralph Levy quietly said that cogwa does not believe the teaching in Mystery of the Ages that Noah will separate all the different races in the Millennium. But, I’ve not actually seen the official repudiation.”
ReplyDeleteWith all the currently planned massive “climate migration” and the “white replacement” plans, on top of the USA and Britain going into a future captivity for their sins, HWA might prove to have been right.
The USA and Britain will have to be brought back to their own land, and the invaders will have to be expelled.
DW,
ReplyDeleteEverything you’ve been saying is remarkably similar to recent conversations I’ve had with others. I completely agree.
DW,
ReplyDeleteYou may be right about this. We (including me) may be deceived on various points. Like sinning, Christians are NOT immune to harboring erroneous beliefs. At any rate, like you, I look forward to the time when we will both understand everything clearly. :)
I continue to wonder that so many, like DW did in a recent post, claim that Jesus came to keep the Law. The ‘Law’ was not made for a righteous man and Christ was inherently righteous. Yes, He was born ‘under the law’, and did no sin. He didn’t come to prove or demonstrate that He could and would keep the Law. That would make the Law of more power and influence than God! We are to worship the Christ because He is God, not because He managed somehow to ‘keep’ the Law of Moses. The Law was given to unrighteousness people as a guide and tutor UNTIL Christ should come. Jesus didn’t need the law as a guide. He came to redeem mankind and give Himself as a perfect sacrifice. How that works is still somewhat of a mystery, but that is how God chose to save men and demonstrate Their great love and determination. It was not to keep something that was added to help sinful man until that new covenant and Way was revealed.
ReplyDelete8.50 AM
ReplyDeleteHuman skeletons turn to dust after about one hundred years, so I'm not surprised that Western European skeletons are not found in Palestine.
A lot of tombs around the world would like to have a word...
DeleteThere's many skeletons thousands of years old that are still intact enough to do DNA tests on. They find them in Israel and other Middle Eastern nations all the time. Since most of the people there are J or E, haplotypes found in Semitic people, that rules out any chance of any Western or Eastern people being descendants of Abraham, since Jews and other Middle Eastern are J or E haplotypes, not R, which the vast majority of Europeans have.
DeleteIt is the glory of God to conceal a matter.
DeleteThere's a video on YouTube called "Mistaken Identity: British-Israelism". It's really easy to follow and understand.
ReplyDeleteWith an air of superiority and virtue signaling, leave it to Looney Lonnie to beat an already dead horse to death. Nothing new here that hasn’t been discussed over the years here on Banned by HWA. NEO did a series of excellent Posts on this subject matter awhile back. NEO may have even commented on this Post anonymously. When he’s not busy smearing people he doesn’t even know, Looney Lonnie must have some sort of unresolved business with his late Father that drives him to be relevant by his periodic Posts here on Banned . Richard
ReplyDeleteRichard. I used to enjoy your posts here but you have turned into a vindictive bitter ass over the last year. Sad to see.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 10:47
ReplyDelete"Human skeletons turn to dust after about one hundred years, so I'm not surprised that Western European skeletons are not found in Palestine."
Think for a moment. If that were true, how would we know anything about pre-historic man? The National Park Service reports that they still find the bones of amputated limbs on Civil War battlefields. You might have a look at the article I cited in my original comment.
No layer of Western European bones are found in Palestine because Western Europeans never lived there at any significant population level. Western Europeans originated in Eurasia, near Siberia, and migrated westward into Europe.
But of course an Armstrongist archaeological expedition might go to Palestine and find that missing layer of bones. Until they have found it and published in the academic press, they should withdraw "The US and Britain in Prophecy" from printing and circulation.
The above post was intended to demonstrate the moral deficiencies of Anglo-Israelism - Anything that it says about me or my moral fitness is incidental (although most writings probably do reveal something of the character of their author). I do agree with Richard that NEO has composed several excellent treatises which discredit the teaching - none of which my father would have read or liked. Finally, the readers here may have noticed that I'm not the one posting comments about the daddy issues of people who are complete strangers.
ReplyDeleteLOL. ! Thanks for the backhanded complement. It’s hard to be “bitter” when at the moment you’re sipping a glass of wine at a tiki bar on The Gulf of Mexico in South Florida on a beautiful sunny 85 degree day. Just sitting here getting caught up on the news from Banned by HWA and read Loonie Lonnie’s worthless virtue signaling dribble. I thank God and I count my many blessings for the situation that I find myself in life and the decisions I made in life including leaving Armstrongism back in the mid 1970s to the estrangement of the rest of my own family. I am also very thankful that I didn’t turn out in life like Loony Lonnie with all his daddy issues and his extremism. Richard
ReplyDeleteIt was noted above that:
ReplyDelete“Where there is a change in the priesthood, there is by necessity a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12).”
Before arguing that there has been no change in the priesthood, I would like to say that I agree with Paul seeing that “law keeping/holy days” appears to be frowned upon by some.
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do ... God sending his own Son ... condemned sin in the flesh:
Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[OC - law without the spirit; NC - law with the spirit].
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are [present tense] priests that offer [present tense] gifts according to the law:
“That Jesus’ high-priestly ministry must be exercised in the heavenly sanctuary is further shown by the fact that there would be no room for him to exercise it in the earthly sanctuary. In the earthly sanctuary, whether we think of the earlier tent-shrine or the later temple in Jerusalem, the high priesthood was confined to one family; and far from belonging to that family, Jesus did not even belong to the tribe from which it came. On earth Jesus was a layman, excluded by the law from all priestly functions [but see below]... But to our author, this simply emphasizes the dignity of Jesus’ high priesthood; for a high priesthood exercised in an earthly shrine is far inferior to that heavenly high priesthood which depends for its exercise on a perfect sacrifice offered once for all and consequent admission to the sanctuary above” (F.F. Bruce, The Epistle to the Hebrews, Revised, NICNT, p.183).
(As an aside, the mother of Eleazar, the second high priest, was from the tribe of Judah; it is suggested that Mary’s father was from the tribe of Levi and her mother from the tribe of Judah).
BI uses Jeremiah 33:17 as a proof text that David would have a “man” sitting on the throne of David from the time of Jeremiah onwards. But the context argues against that:
(Everlasting covenants have ‘if” clauses and hence can be broken; cp. 1 Ki 2:4; 8:25; 9:4-5; Ge 17:13-14).
Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time...
Jer 33:16 In those days... Jerusalem shall dwell safely
33:17 is a prophecy for the Messianic Age; as is 33:18
Jer 33:17 ... There will not be cut off [karat] for David an individual sitting on the throne of the household of Israel
Jer 33:18a And for the priests, the Levites, there will not be cut off [karat] an individual before me making whole offering rise... (John Goldingay).
"Yahweh goes on to affirm a matching undertaking about the Levites that takes up the formulation of the Davidic promise. Once again, there will not be cut off... Jerusalem will know the rule of David and the ministry of the Levites. So Jeremiah is not only confirming the promise about David in 1 Kings, he is also providing the Levites with a matching promise" (John Goldingay, The Book of Jeremiah, NICOT, pp.698).
Jer 33:20Thus saith the LORD; if ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
An argument “is offered to prove the reliability and permanence of Yahweh’s promises. The regular succession of day and night was established at creation (Gen. 1:5; 8:22). It was part of the nature of things. It is here described as Yahweh’s covenant (berit) with day and night which could never be broken.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteIf this were broken so that day and night did not function as the proper time, then one could expect Yahweh's covenant with his servant David and with the Levitical priests to fail. But the thought was absurd. David's son would sit on the throne, and the Levitical priests would serve (seret) Yahweh" (J. A. Thompson. The Book of Jeremiah, NICOT, p.603).
While the sacrificial system was suspended in AD70 it will be reinstituted after the end-time Babylonian captivity; the parallel is the suspension in either 587 or 586 BC and reinstitued after the neo-Babylonian captivity.
Eze 45:18b In the first month on the first day you are to take a young bull without defect and purify the sanctuary.
Eze 45:19 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple, on the four corners of the upper ledge of the altar and on the gateposts of the inner court.
Eze 45:20 You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple. (NIV).
Christ's sacrifice does not annul the dynamic nature of certain sins and sever ritual impurity; hence a need for the Leviticial priesthood in the Messianic Age.
F.F. Bruce above noted that:
"On earth Jesus was a layman, excluded by the law from all priestly functions".
Jesus was not a priest in a strict sense, but:
2 Samuel 5:6-9 The king and his men marched to Jerusalem to attack the Jebusites, who lived there... David captured the fortress of Zion... David then took up residence in the fortress and called it the City of David... (NIV).
1Ki 2:35b and Zadok the priest did the king put in the room of Abiathar.
"When centuries later, Jerusalem fell into David's hands and became his capital (2 Sam. 5:6ff), he and his heirs became successors to Melchizedek's kingship, and probably also (in a titular capacity at least) to the priesthood of God Most High" (F. F. Bruce, The Epistle to the Hebrews, NICNT, p.124).
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Ps 110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
[Verse 7 as been added to support the argument that Ps 110, as a royal psalm, was originally composed for the ruling human Davidic kings - that later came to have a Messianic application].
Eze 45:17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths - at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel.
It is suggested that the Davidics, as temple builders and temple patrons, are ‘priests' after the order of Melchizedek; after the death of Joseph, Jesus inherited the not only the kingship but also the "earthly" Melchizedek priesthood.
To fill up the number of characters for a post:
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations [goyim] which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles/booths.
"The one festival uniting all nations in worship is to be the feast of booths... In God's Kingdom the gentiles would be brought within that covenant when they came to worship in the Temple the King, the Lord of hosts..." (Joyce G. Baldwin, Haggai Zechariah Malachi, TOTC, p.206).
ReplyDeleteOn December 9 at 6:08:00 AM PST, DW commented to Lonnie about a minor disagreement: "I look forward to hashing it out with you in eternity!"
How much better the world would be if we could all resolve to defer our major as well as our minor agreements till eternity! The worst would already have come to worst, so we would have leisure to hash things out as long as we want with no deadlines, no fear of disfellowship or other retribution.
If we still exist, our outlook will have broadened to the point where our earthly passions and the turmoil they entailed will seem trivial. If we no longer exist, our various disappointments, frustrations, and angers will have vanished. That result could not be considered a happy one, exactly, but at least the tranquility would be universal and completely unblemished.
No one knows objectively which fate is in store. I am not a man of faith, but I have a default assumption, and it is is that second option. For those of you who expect scriptural authority for one's opinions, I turn to Ecclesiastes 3:19-22.
"19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?"
"The irony is that the USA and Britain were neither Sabbath keepers or COGlodytes. The religiously-affiliated among them were beholden to "Mystery Babylon's harlot daughters". They didn't receive "great material blessings" because of their godliness - according to BI, they received it because of their supposed ancestry!"
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting observation, and further investigation into the religious beliefs of the founding fathers brings up other issues that some would find problematic. For instance, if you were to study the religious beliefs of the founding fathers, you would find that while Thomas Jefferson considered himself a Christian of sorts, and valued what he considered to be teachings of Jesus Christ, he did not believe in His divinity, meaning he didn't believe that Jesus Christ was God. He also didn't believe in His miracles, or resurrection. See https://www.monticello.org/research-education/thomas-jefferson-encyclopedia/jeffersons-religious-beliefs/ Benjamin Franklin is said to also have had doubts about the divinity of Christ.
I have heard COG ministers speak out of both sides of their mouths on this issue, depending on whatever point they might be highlighting at a given moment. For example, when they are speaking of the sins or moral degradation of modern day U.S. or Britain, they will often point to the Christian beliefs or moral convictions of the founding fathers or early settlers, using these things as evidence of why God will "punish" these modern nations. But, when they are speaking of the "great blessings" God has bestowed on these nations, it comes down to the idea that these peoples were physical descendants of Abraham, and they were blessed as a result of promises made to Abraham and his offspring, that in their view could not be explained or kept in any other way.
The above reasoning however, creates a conundrum of sorts. If the blessings of these nations was given solely because of their ancestry, and their own obedience, beliefs, or moral behavior was never a condition or reason for the blessings to be bestowed, then how can you justify punishment for what would be considered disobedience? And, how do you define what you mean by that, if the "Christianity" of the the founding fathers passed as simply belief in a creator, but not necessarily the belief in the divinity of Christ, or His miracles, or resurrection?
Furthermore, it seems a bit hypocritical to on the one hand praise the beliefs of the early settlers or founding fathers, even though in most cases those beliefs wouldn't match the COG definition of "true Christianity" while at the same time condemning others today who hold similar beliefs and deeming them "false" Christians. You simply can't have it both ways.
Concerned Sister
"The above reasoning however, creates a conundrum of sorts. If the blessings of these nations was given solely because of their ancestry, and their own obedience, beliefs, or moral behavior was never a condition or reason for the blessings to be bestowed, then how can you justify punishment for what would be considered disobedience?"
DeleteWhile its never stated as honestly as it should be in the literature, the implication is that they are punished for not listening to HWA when he came on the scene. Which is preordained because HWAs brand of BI pulls the warnings to the kingdoms of Israel and Judah and projects them into the future.
Isn't it just terrible, 12:55? His Camelot was interrupted by Joe Biden, and he just hasn't been the same ever since.
ReplyDeleteAll very good challenges which I enjoyed reading. The only caution we need to be careful of is becoming judgmental and condemning. It's easy to do as human beings. In the spirit of, prove all things and test the spirits personally I can only go so far regarding certain subjects, especially acarology even though I do watch and read about such history and findings. Biblically speaking I do believe that we are all in a Laodicean era and that the whole world is deceived, yet there are those that do have a good understanding of the Bible and are trying to worship God and want to love God and one another regardless of one being a Sabbath/Holyday keeper or not. If one truly believes this is what he/she has proven that God wants them to do, who are we to say otherwise? The Sabbath keeper can prove that it should be kept, the Sunday worshiper can claim the same, so the arguments and condemning begins. We know if it is not of faith, it is a sin. God will sought it all out at the right time. My point is that we on either side can be guilty of setting ourselves up as superior. Let us pray for one another in the unity of Christ and seek to bring true Christians that truly want to worship Him together as one Body, one Spirit, one Truth, one Baptism and only one Church God's people. A house divided against itself WILL NOT STAND. Yes, there are many wolves in sheep's clothing but if we are in Christ, we have a promise that He will lead us in all truth, never leaving us nor forsaking us, let us rejoice and rest in that. The time is here that we need to be bound together in the Spirit of God because we know that the Devil has wicked spirits in high places looking to divide, conquer and destroy. BE SAFE and sorry if this seems I climbed a soap box, but this has been heavy on my heart for awhile.
ReplyDeleteConcerned Sister nicely elucidated one of the central dilemmas relative to the messaging which results from the Armstrong brand of Anglo-Israelism. The logic simply does NOT work! It makes absolutely ZERO sense to say that the English-speaking peoples of the world have been blessed because of their supposed descent from Abraham and turn right around and declare that all of that is going to be withdrawn because of bad behavior! As Concerned Sister alluded to in her comments, the English-speaking peoples of the earth have NEVER been a "righteous" people in the biblical sense of that word. Moreover, history is literally full of ups and downs for these folks - numerous triumphs and tragedies. Do these folks understand how many empires England has won and lost over the last millennia? And what explains the ascendancy and decline of the Spanish Empire? These are questions that Armstrongites cannot answer!
ReplyDelete"punished for not listening to HWA".
ReplyDeleteWe could expound on the ego and vanity of this type of preaching forever! In his day, HWA wrote himself into the Bible every bit as much as we see Bob Thiel, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland, and others doing in the present day. Because HWA had a small but somewhat visible following, it lent credibility to his hook, or the warning he was disseminating. Those claiming to be the heirs to his mantle are all but invisible! We also now have seen that HWA died without his hook or warning ever having come to pass, but the impact of this is largely lost on many of those who wasted their entire lives buying into HWA's gnosticism, and simply believe that his BI-based prophecies were delayed. Most of the people who came into Armstrongism seeking protection from enslavement and torture from the Germans are already dead, and if you did a Jay Leno type street walk, nobody would even remember HWA or GTA! It totally escapes me how the little guys who have Armstrong-style churches smaller than your average metropolitan mega-church could believe that they are now the ones getting out the message so that Armageddon can start and Jesus can return. I guess this is why the people I named above are so delusional and cartoonish.
The first thing anybody who hears about BI is going to do these days is Google it, and discover what an absurd and impossible theory it really is. One could almost respect the Low IQ-Anon people more than those promoting British Isrealism. Actually, I understand that the BI theory has somewhat of a following amongst the white separatist militias which have unfortunately come back into prominence within the past 6 years.
Decades after his passing, it is not possible to believe that people living today would be responsible for anything ever preached by HWA. People barely remember Michael Jackson!
Back to the Bible
ReplyDelete2Ch 17:7 In the third year of his reign he sent his officials Ben-Hail, Obadiah, Zechariah, Nethanel and Micaiah to teach in the towns of Judah.
2Ch 17:8 With them were certain Levites - Shemaiah, Nethaniah, Zebadiah, Asahel, Shemiramoth, Jehonathan, Adonijah, Tobijah and Tob-Adonijah - and the priests Elishama and Jehoram.
2Ch 17:9 They taught throughout Judah, taking with them the Book of the Law of the LORD; they went around to all the towns of Judah and taught the people.
2Ch 17:10 The fear of the LORD fell on all the kingdoms of the lands surrounding Judah, so that they did not make war with Jehoshaphat.
2Ch 17:11 Some Philistines brought Jehoshaphat gifts and silver as tribute, and the Arabs brought him flocks: seven thousand seven hundred rams and seven thousand seven hundred goats.
2Ch 17:12 Jehoshaphat became more and more powerful; he built forts and store cities in Judah
2Ch 17:13 and had large supplies in the towns of Judah. He also kept experienced fighting men in Jerusalem.
2Ch 17:19 These were the men who served the king, besides those he stationed in the fortified cities throughout Judah. (NIV).
"The second and third of Jehoshaphat's achievements are peace (v.10) and wealth (v.11)... The fact that they are mentioned straight after the 'Back to the Bible' campaign suggests that they are the result of God's word" (Martin J. Selman, 2 Chronicles, Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries (TOTC), D. J. Wiseman, General Editor, (Leicester: Inter-Varsity Press, 1994), p.406).
"The furious debate in some quarters over whether America was born a "Christian nation" is ironic. The historical record shows that America was not born Christian, but grew to be very Christian centuries later...
"Evangelical movements in the late 18th and early 19th centuries sent preachers out to Christianize the unorganized settlers. They competed against religious ignorance, but also against each other and the established churches. Their message of a democratic faith, in which the poor, the uneducated, and even the fallen, not just the pre-elected elite, could someday sit at God's throne eventually brought the upstart Protestant movements, such as Methodism, Baptism, and others, like Mormonism, increasing success.
"Later, over the course of the nineteenth century, middle-class Americans in great numbers formed and joined churches and by the twentieth century, they had made church-going a norm. Importantly, it was around 1900, give or take a generation, that religious fundamentalism took form in reaction to the growing role of science. That "old time religion," ironically, may be only about a century or so old.
"The "normal" religious life many Americans seem to remember is the life of the 1950s, when church-building and church-attending boomed - not coincidentally, along with the Baby Boom. Those years were the peak of church membership and attendance in American history - much higher than in Early America - but not that much higher than today.
"We err if we project that 1950s culture back to the early days of America. And we underestimate the accomplishment of legions of traveling ministers who eventually, rural hollow by rural hollow, Christianized America" (Claude S. Fischer, A Christian America? What History Shows, madeinamericathebook.wordpress.com, March 26, 2010).
"Even the American taste for superlatives was stretched by the nature of the good times in the fifties. There had been nothing like it before in the history of the world... A whole new middle class, made up of 60 percent of all American families, was created... Some 13 million new homes were bought in the decade after 1948; 83 percent of American homes had a television; the number of two-car families doubled between 1951 and 1958; and the number of hot dogs went from 750 million in 1950 to 2 billion in 1960" (Harold Evans, The American Century, p.435).
To Concerned Sister,
ReplyDelete“If the blessings of these nations was given solely because of their ancestry, and their own obedience, beliefs, or moral behavior was never a condition or reason for the blessings to be bestowed, then how can you justify punishment for what would be considered disobedience?”
“Furthermore, it seems a bit hypocritical to on the one hand praise the beliefs of the early settlers or founding fathers, even though in most cases those beliefs wouldn't match the COG definition of "true Christianity" while at the same time condemning others today who hold similar beliefs and deeming them "false" Christians. You simply can't have it both ways.” ____________________________________________________________________________
Exactly, they want it both ways, or (they want to have their cake and eat it too). How can England whose religion essentially became the Church of England (which is basically catholicism without the papacy), and America who is predominantly made up of Protestant and Catholic Churches have a covenant with God?? It’s weird, especially to someone who is a historian or studies history avidly.
You mention Thomas Jefferson, I mean what religion did he practice. Here is a man who was married but had children with his slave mistress. Is that true Christianity? The Louisiana Purchase was signed when Jefferson was in office, and this is what opened up the blessing floodgates to the American West and land ownership.
We do know that some Puritans didn’t keep Christmas, but as you mentioned, the early settlers didn’t keep the Sabbath, Holy Days, clean meats etc… the Puritans were actually leaving England (Church of England) for religious freedom. How does that work, they act like Britain (BI) had the true religion? Why do they criticize the catholics and protestants of TODAY, but don’t criticize the protestants, anglicans, and catholics of YESTERDAY?? They actually glorify them. It’s strange especially since the 1600’s-1800’s slavery and colonialism occurred in these same places, but it doesn’t matter it’s all for the physical birthright blessings.
As far as obedience is concerned, Armstrongism took this verse below out of context;
Genesis 22:18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
First of all it doesn’t say, specific nations or tribes shall be blessed, it says ALL. Second of all this prophecy already started to be fulfilled after the Holy Spirit was given and the gentiles started to be converted.
As the Apostle Paul mentioned: Galatians 3:8-9 And the Scripture (GENESIS), foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Paul correctly quotes Genesis and Abraham’s example and applies it within the new testament Christians who were Galatians, physically non Israelites from all other nations. Armstrongism does a 3,000 year rewind and tries to applies this Gen 22:18, which is laughable and sad. It’s about spiritual blessings.
All they had to do was put the scriptures together like they “mostly do” everything else. But this doctrine they’re dug deep and won’t correct.
But remember now, the settlers from England were (Ephraim) but once they reached the shores of America, the magic wand is waved and they instantly turned into Manasseh. Yea
Or to use one of our resident commenter's phrases, early America was comprised of a lot of ham-eating, Sunday keeping, Christians falsely so-called! (Lol)
ReplyDeleteIt was noted above:
ReplyDelete“Paul correctly quotes Genesis and Abraham’s example and applies it within the new testament Christians who were Galatians, physically non Israelites from all other nations.”
This post looks briefly at Paul’s “Second Temple” exegesis of “seed [zera‘]” in Genesis.
Ge 13:14 The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, “Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west.
Ge 13:15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring [zera‘] forever. (NIV).
“Here, “offspring is the Hebrew word zera', which is more literally rendered “seed.” The word is singular in form but can be either be singular or plural in meaning - a linguistic phenomenon often referred to as a “collective noun” (common in English examples including “sheep” and “fish”). What is clear is that, in the context of the promises in Genesis, zera’ has an undeniable plural meaning. Indeed, that is the very point of the promises, not that Abraham will have one offspring, but that there will be too many to count! Even though zera’ is a singular form, it clearly as a plural meaning in Genesis...
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
“Paul’s rendering of “seed” as singular in meaning because it is singular in form is a deliberate exegetical decision on his part.
“... Paul’s handling of the OT promises betrays an exegetical approach that would be deemed inappropriate by contemporary conventions, but hardly so for ancient, Second Temple standards. The fact that zera’ clearly means multiple, innumerable offspring in Genesis is not Paul’s point of departure...
“What is “proper” exegesis for Paul is determined by his time, not ours, and this recognition must factor into any contemporary discussion of how we explain the NT use of the OT (and subsequently how we are to be faithful to an apostolic model). The fact that such an exegetical manoeuver would not be persuasive today ... should not dissuade us from making the necessary observation that Paul’s handling of Scripture here in Galatians 3:15-29 is a function of his Second Temple context. Our first task is to be understood what Paul is doing...” (Peter Enns, Three Views on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, pp.181-85).
Acarology, or archaeology?
ReplyDelete1.33 PM
ReplyDeleteHow long a dead body lasts varies depending on temperature, humidity, the amount of moisture in the soil. In desert conditions, human bones turn to dust in about 20 years. The Egyptians mummified dead bodies for a reason. Not finding bones in warmer climates is to be expected.
Concerned sister
ReplyDeleteMost of the founding fathers were deists, ie, they believed in God based on observing nature. Only men of good morals could come up with the contents of the declaration of independence and the bill of rights. The pilgrims at Plymouth were also religious. When their settlement was on the verge of collapsing, they carefully studied their bible's and abandoned their collectivistic/commie policy which was the cause of their failure. According to a book published in the 1930s, America shut down on Sundays, which they considered their Sabbath. God judges people and nation's based on the understanding that they have, and will not condemn them for the honest mistake of keeping the wrong Sabbath day, or not keeping His holy days out of ignorance.
The Anglo-Saxon blessings resulting from Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, is the equivalent of inheritance being passed down to future generations. Their moral stature is irrelevant. God will not punish the Anglo-Saxons because of their faulty understanding of the bible, but because of their moral depravity. All cultures condemn lying, stealing and murder.
God is just.
To Anon 6:27
ReplyDelete"Most of the founding fathers were deists, ie, they believed in God based on observing nature. Only men of good morals could come up with the contents of the declaration of independence and the bill of rights. The pilgrims at Plymouth were also religious. When their settlement was on the verge of collapsing, they carefully studied their bible's and abandoned their collectivistic/commie policy which was the cause of their failure."
______________________________________________________________________________
Good morals? So individuals with good morals "own people" and call them "their property", rape slave or native women and sell their children to other men? While at the same time proclaiming liberty denying liberty to other individuals. Religious? There's lots nations that have religious foundations, but is it the true religion? James 1:27 tells us: Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
See the COG's and Armstrongism try and make it seem like the founding fathers had a relationship with God and Christ. They make it seem as though they were apart of God's True Church or entered into a covenant with their Creator. They didn't observe God's calendar, which does look at nature with the new moons, or observe nature when considering clean meats. You think Andrew Jackson had good morals, what he did to the Native Americans? So you guys ideology is somehow, God now is looking down in 21st century and now He must punish America/Britain for their recent sins. But God has/had to ignore the sins committed in the 18th, 19th (even through there was a civil war) and 20th century.
In the beginning of your post, you say, "Only men of good morals".... then near the end you write, "Their moral stature is irrelevant" ??? What??
So we disagree, okay, but what we must agree on is that, God doesn't change. . His judgment must be the same. Because He is no respecter of persons. To my understanding, God blesses those who obey (Deut. 28:2). So why would this change in the NT era? You could be right, but I doubt it. Again, believing or not believing in BI has nothing to do with reconciliation, my salvation or my conversion.
The prayer life of someone who believes in BI will be significantly different from someone who doesn't. Which is why some posters on this blog attack BI with a passion. They are motivated by pure envy. The same reason that caused them to kill Christ.
ReplyDelete"The same reason that caused them to kill Christ." It's actually the exact opposite in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteJohn 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. See his own kindred killed him.
Christ & John the Baptist actually warned of something very similar or related to this.
Matthew 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’
John 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.
You're right the prayer life would be different. It would focus on a "every TONGUE, tribe, people and nation (Rev. 5:9-10). It would be about asking God's help to do the works of righteousness to be a new creation rather than boasting about ones ancestry (flesh) Galatians 6:13-15.
Many Native American tribes believed in a "Great Spirit" or Creator, and even believed that this spirit took an interest in human affairs, and at times intervened in the lives of human beings. We might call these miracles. To my knowledge, they reached this conclusion through observation and in most cases without any direct access to the Bible or Christian teachings. It could be argued that this belief went beyond mere deism, since the idea of miraculous intervention was also acknowledged, and many deists, including Jefferson, didn't believe in miracles.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if Sunday blue laws are a sign of morality and devotion to God, then modern day Germany must be a very moral and devoted society! The Federal Republic of Germany currently has on its books a law referred to as Ladenschlussgesetz, or shop closing law, which compels retail stores to close on Sunday and religious holidays, in that country. It's also interesting to note, that Constantine the Great was the first to enact a Sunday blue law, limiting trade, etc. on that day.
I am not arguing that God isn't just, or that the punishment of peoples or nations due to gross immorality isn't fair or warranted. We have the Biblical example Noah and the flood, of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as the story of Jonah, who was sent to the capital of the Assyrian Empire, Ninevah, to warn them of destruction if they didn't turn from their sins. We also have God's repeated warnings to Israel that if they did not keep His commands and uphold the covenant He made with them, they would be cursed, punished, and scattered. Further, we have the statement regarding any nation in Jeremiah 18:7-10.
And, while I agree that the promises made to Abraham did include physical blessings to His descendants, those blessings came with certain expectations in the form of a covenant, that Ancient Israel repeatedly broke. The blessings to Abraham however, were not limited to only be bestowed upon His descendants by blood line, but they were designed to expand to include any and all who would eventually come to accept and place themselves under the rule of Jesus Christ! The New Testament not only spells out how people receive those blessings now, but also gives a stern warning to those who would presume to boast in claiming Abraham as their ancestor. "Produce fruit, then, in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham." Matthew 3:8-9. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:28-29
In the end, it doesn't really matter who is or isn't descended from Abraham. All are of one blood, and while God establishes the times and boundaries of every nation, all are commanded to repent and accept Christ.
From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.
God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’ Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination.
Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.” Acts 17:26-31
Concerned Sister
Concerned Sister you are correct!
ReplyDeleteYou came with scriptures, not some 1930s book or non inspired text, but Gods Word. The goal is to be the offspring of God to be born into the family of God.
3.22 PM
ReplyDeleteGoogling haplogroups shows that the topic is much more complex than you make out. Many forums have debated your point, with some disagreeing with your conclusion. Others have point out that since we have no sample of Abraham's DNA, we cannot know his haplogroup.
Deists believe there is a God, but He is detached from interaction with the universe. The also believe that religious knowledge comes from human reasoning.
ReplyDeleteNone of this squares with the Bible. In fact, many of the Founding Father's had serious issues with the word of God. Thomas Jefferson was perhaps the most extreme in that he created his own version of the Bible.
These are touted by the COG groups as good religious men who laid a religious foundation for the US.
However,. If you actually read the Constitution and Bill of Rights, you'll discover that they want relion excluded from government.
Moral men? Jefferson had illegitimate children, as did Franklin. Dalliances were seen as a "men will be men" fact of life.
Beyond that, the racism and prejudice they had is appalling. "All men are created equal" should really read "All wealthy white men are created equal" because the reality is that poor white people and people of color were treated abominally.
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, IF ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
ReplyDeleteEx 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.
When Christ pours out his spirit in the Messianic Age the nation of Israel will obey God and keep His covenant and the Israelites will be a peculiar treasure to him above all people.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Ac 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
In the first half of his prophetic week Christ raised up Israel the Church and commission her to be a light to the Gentiles and bring salvation to the ends of the earth.
In the second half of his prophetic week Christ will raise up Israel the Kingdom and commission her to be a light to the Gentiles and bring salvation to the ends of the earth.
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Christ/Israel, as individual, is “first cause” and the nation of Israel is “second cause”; or put another way, Christ is “principal” and Israel is “agency”.
Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11 And many nations [goyim] shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
"Zechariah affirms two things here that are always held in a delicate balance in Scripture. The first is the special place of Israel in God's purposes, represented here by Judah and Jerusalem (8, 12); the second his intention, finally to include people of many nations, and to own them as my people just as surely as he owned Israel (11). Again we are in touch with a theme that arcs right across the biblical revelation. It is a programme announced in the promises to Abraham, who was called to 'leave' (be separated from) others, to live in a special, covenantal relationship with God, so that through him, all peoples on earth might be blessed. The programme is realized in the person of Jesus Christ, the true seed of Abraham, in whom all the promises of God are fulfilled. It is vital that we realize, however, that the fulfilment in Christ does not obliterate the special place of Israel in God purposes, it brings it to perfect realization. Only by bowing the knee to the true seed of Abraham, the one perfect Israelite, can one be saved. There is no Saviour but Israel's Messiah, and no God but Israel's God... Zechariah expresses that same truth in terms of pilgrimage to Zion. There is only one place to which all must come in order to be saved. Only there will God dwell with his people..." (Barry Webb, The Message of Zechariah, BST, p.82-83).
Ge 12:2a And I will make of thee A GREAT NATION
Ge 12:2b ... and thou shalt be (hayah) a blessing (berakah):
Isa 19:24a In that day shall be (hayah) Israel...
Isa 19:24c a blessing (berakah) in the midst of the land:
Zec 8:13a And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen,
Zec 8:13b O house of Judah, and house of Israel;
Zec 8:13c ... and ye shall be (hayah) a blessing (berakah)
"... the way the language of blessing and curse is constructed creates an unmistakable link to another tradition of blessing and curse: the Abrahamic tradition.
Part 2
ReplyDelete“Although the word pair curse/blessing is typical of the Deuteronomic covenant texts, the verbal phrase in which the word "blessing" occurs in 8:13 ("you will be a blessing") is reminiscent of the promise of Abraham in Genesis 12:2. There God promised to bless Abraham, and he will in turn become a source of blessing to the nations. Zechariah represents a similar trend. The people had been an example of curse among the nations, but they will become a source of blessing to the nations" (Mark J. Boda, Haggai, Zechariah, NIVAC, p.385).
Ge 12:3c ... and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
"Then God stated the highest goal for Abram's calling. All peoples on earth will be blessed through him. The verb may be ... translated "find or obtain blessing." God's primary way of working among the nations is through Abram's seed. Thus, to experience God's blessing, THE VARIOUS PEOPLES MUST INTERACT WITH ABRAM'S OFFSPRING. Having selected one family, God in a sense shows favoritism, but his design is not parochial. God was and is working through one family for the benefits of all families. Through Abram's seed he is achieving his goal in creating the earth, namely, people worshipping only him" (John E. Hartley, Genesis, NIBC, p.133).
Isa 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
Ps 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
Ps 2:9 You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
"... according to the prophet's meaning, to be ruled by the people of God is the true happiness of the nations, and to allow themselves to be so ruled is their true liberty" (F. Delitizsch, Isaiah, KD, Vol.7, p.199).
In the Messianic Age, the House of Judah and House of Israel will fulfill the promises to Abraham; this great nation will be a blessing both physically and spiritually to the goyim.
(Christ and the Church saints will be heaven during the Messianic Age).
Anonymous 3:41
ReplyDelete"Others have point out that since we have no sample of Abraham's DNA, we cannot know his haplogroup."
Abraham was y chromosome haplogroup J. We can determine this from circumstance without a direct sample. People who insist on a direct sample do not understand how human genetics operates. And the ones that I have encountered are ineducable on this topic.
"Christ and the church saints will be in heaven during the Messianic Age."
ReplyDeleteIt's great to hear that during the Messianic Age, I will spend my time watching movies and playing video games in heaven. I will also play table tennis with the angels. I hope they are good at the game.
The poor deceived COGlodytes cannot comprehend the Holy Scriptures stating that there is no more Greek, or Jew, and thereby no lost Israelites, for all one in Jesus (they're not too cozy with Jesus and being at one seems to icky Protestant-ie).
ReplyDeleteThey cannot comprehend DNA either (they're known for their lack of scholarly achievements).
Hopefully they can agree that the Bible does not specifically identify the Tribes of Israel as the US and Western European nations.
Hopefully, they can at least search for the names France, Netherlands, Ireland, Belgium, etc. and agree they are not in the Bible, without debate.
This British Israelism that the COGs cherish as a dear and an essential doctrine is one that Herbie claims that God delivered to him.
The COGs rely on the books US and Britain in Prophecy and Mystery of the Ages as poof of their beloved doctrine.
If these COGlodytes really did prove all things, as they claim to do, they would prove that Herbie stole this doctrine from others.
British Israelism is one doctrine that makes the COGs like Mormons (and their Book of Mormon) – they both rely on books outside of the Bible as the source of their essential doctrines.
Furthermore, the COGs and the Mormons both state that God is not working with those (therefore, no salvation for them) who do not believe in the doctrines covered by their extra-biblical books.
British Israelism is one, among several, doctrines that prove that the COGs are a non-Bible based cult.
5.41 PM
ReplyDeleteBI was an official doctrine of the Anglican church during queen Victoria's reign. There were many BI societies at that time that wrote books and pamphlets on the subject. In fact the doctrine goes back to the 1600s.
So it wasn't a Herbie invention or message to him from God.
Anonymous 3:41
ReplyDelete"Many forums have debated your point, with some disagreeing with your conclusion."
This post has now aged in the queue so I not sure if anyone will see this but here goes. In these other "forums" another factor should be considered. It is that HWA's model concerning the physical blessings on Israel is invalid. This is a huge issue. When debating BI, many will simply fall back upon the acquisition of the Louisiana Purchase as the pivotal point in their continued belief in BI. Even scientific arguments such as genetics are disregarded because of the Seven Times Punishment and the rise of the United States through the acquisition of the Louisiana Purchase.
In brief, here is the problem. HWA did some Millerite arithmetic on Leviticus 26:18 and came up with 2520 years. See Chapter 10 of USBC In Prophecy,1972. This period of punishment was supposed to end for "Israel" around 1800 AD. In 1803, the the US purchased the Lousiana Territory. This is regarded as not only a nice fit with Biblical prophecy by most Armstrongists but incontrovertible proof that the United States is Israel. But this model collapses when one considers who the US purchased the Lousiana Territory from. They purchased if from the French First Republic. And the French are the tribe of Reuben according to Armstrongist BI advocates. And France owned the Lousiana Territory beginning in 1699, 101 years before the expiration date on the Seven Times Punishment in 1800. This means that what happened in 1800 was not the lifting of the punishment as HWA's model prescribes but the handing over of the Lousiana Purchase from one Israelite tribe to another Israelite tribe. And Israel had already been in possession of the putative great Abrahamic blessing for 101 years.
HWA does not mention France in regard to the Louisiana Purchase at all. He only mentions France as a tribe of Israel and identified with Reuben. I believe that this is because bringing France in the picture makes it clear that HWA's intrepretation of the Seven Times Punishment is invalidated. The 2520 year span, an ironclad promise from God, is violated
Whatever that period means, it is not what HWA said it meant. And it does not underpin the BI identification of the United States with Israel.
Neo's observation is absolutely correct and underscores Herbie's lack of familiarity with history (or deliberate distortion of it to fit his thesis).
ReplyDeleteTrooisto wrote:
ReplyDelete"British Israelism is one doctrine that makes the COGs like Mormons (and their Book of Mormon) – they both rely on books outside of the Bible as the source of their essential doctrines."
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Yep, that's where the hypocrisy lies. They tell you, "dust off your Bible", prove all things, but then once you start to prove all of this particular thing, it makes no sense. Even in studying history, it makes no sense. And God is not the author of confusion.
Come on, Neo! Do the math! The math is perfect and keeps us on course. LOL. It's simple: Lev. 26:18 says that if Israel doesn't follow God they will be punished sevenfold (apparently Armstrong knows this really means seven times and that it means for a Duration of seven times.
ReplyDeleteHe further explains that a "Time" is 360 years (a year for each day). Each year was 360 days/yr at the time. So, sevenfold means duration of seven times which is 360 years x 7= 2520 years. This from the Assyrian captivity around 720 AD.
According to Armstrong, this prophecy apparently does not mean 7 times more or seven times longer than something else (as the verse indicates). It just means seven TIMES as defined above.
This is entirely made up. The Hebrew word "seba" is what is translated either "seven times" or "sevenfold" and is translated as simply "seven" almost always, being simply an ordinal number according to Strong's concordance. Other time is means seven times greater, sevenfold, but generally just a number. For instance, Genesis states Seth lived to be 800 and seven (SEBA) years.
Because the King James Version of the Bible used "seven times" rather than "sevenfold" Armstrong made up a meaning for "times" in the scripture, turning what was simply meant as a multiplier (multiplied by 7) into seven periods of 360 years. It's all false. I think he must have known that he was fabricating this. And all for something as silly as saying that the U.S. was now prosperous in 1803 because we got a good deal on the Louisiana Purchase.
The Louisiana Purchase is a nice chunk and all (now), but our strength and wealth was mostly east of the Mississippi for the next 130 years. Texas and its oil was barely even a part of the Louisiana purchase. This area was the Wild West and Indian territory. Hardly a gifting at the time as much pain, death, and brutal work was yet in store to get the bounty from this purchase. Not exactly the Promised Land at the time.
I only vaguely remember this NEO, and appreciate your pointing it out again. I must say that having what I thought to be special knowledge was really cool back in the day. But, now, I'm thankful and prefer simply being one of the many that are Christ's.
Neo,
ReplyDeleteThe above was meant to be amusing/facetious. Hope that came through.
I recall reading some years back that the Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamen belonged to Y-haplogroup R1b, which most Western European men belong to.
ReplyDeleteRe the American Founding Fathers it's my personal belief that they were Christians like the majority of the American people at that time were. I also am of the view that some were associated with Freemasonry. However, my understanding of the latter is that at the time it was a Christian organization, which became predominantly pagan and anti-Christian in the following century particularly under Albert Pike and his influence.
Having said that I believe that the Declaration of Independence, US Constitution and Bill of Rights when composed back then were instruments of a Christian libertarian philosophy that maximized individual liberty under God's law. In my view their focus was preserving absolute and true God-given rights under an absolute and true God. Unfortunately over time this Christian influence has been undermined and even denied particularly since the end of WWII that has seen the American government transformed into an increasingly anti-Christian secularist State. Hence, it's no surprise that we see the consequences of a mass rejection of and hostility to the Christian God and the Christian Bible in every sphere of American society with the censoring of God, the Bible and Biblical law and truth from government, education, media, etc; the promotion of violence with the murder of innocent unborn children; the promotion of perversion with homosexualism, transgenderism, pedophilia etc; the abolition of the death penalty and instead life in jail for guilty capital offenders like premeditated murderers, rapists and pedophiles; the replacement of gold and silver currency for unjust weights and measures like paper money, debased coins and in the future a completely cashless economic system; the sanctioning of usury (interest) for loans; very little, if any, punishment for those in government, religion and other positions of power who lie and engage in corruption and cover ups; etc.
Earl 8:18:
ReplyDeleteI got it. Thanks.
Anonymous 8:54
ReplyDelete"I recall reading some years back that the Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamen belonged to Y-haplogroup R1b, which most Western European men belong to."
There is no doubt an interesting story behind this. Akhenaten was his father and he was kind of a revolutionary. This may reflect a foreign influence and and some history in his family line of marrying out. Marrying out sometimes occurred in royal lines to consolidate political relationships with the royalty of other nations.
In any event, it does not support the idea of a large presence of haplogroup R in Egypt. Ramses III was haplogroup E and that is what you find almost exclusvely in north Africa. One cannot deduce from this isolated instance that somehow Abraham was haplogroup R. According to the Biblical genealogies, Abraham is connected with other people in the Middle East. And there is no presence of haplogroup R en masse in ancient Palestine. But it is certainly possible that someone will turn up an R1b or R1a bone one day. That odd event does not provide a foundation for believing that Abraham is haplogroup R. The bones that archaeologists are excavating in Palestine do not yield haplogroup R DNA.
The people who want to claim Abraham is haplogroup R (to match the haplogroup of the British) seem not to realize that if he were, that would mean the people we call the Jews are not descended from Abraham because they are haplogroup J. Yet when Jesus "came to his own," he came to the haplogroup J people of Palestine. Advocates of BI could claim, against all odds, that Jesus was also an isolated haplogroup R - a Brit wandering around in Palestine. This sophomoric argument would align them with White supremacists, Neo-Nazis and Anti-Semites who claim that Jesus was an Aryan. This view was not unknown in the old WCG.
In response to Anon 8:54
ReplyDelete"Having said that I believe that the Declaration of Independence, US Constitution and Bill of Rights when composed back then were instruments of a Christian libertarian philosophy that maximized individual liberty under God's law. In my view their focus was preserving absolute and true God-given rights under an absolute and true God. Unfortunately over time this Christian influence has been undermined and even denied particularly since the end of WWII that has seen the American government transformed into an increasingly anti-Christian secularist State. Hence, it's no surprise that we see the consequences of a mass rejection of and hostility to the Christian God and the Christian Bible in every sphere of American society with the censoring of God, the Bible and Biblical law and truth from government, education, media, etc; the promotion of violence with the murder of innocent unborn children; the promotion of perversion with homosexualism, transgenderism, pedophilia etc; the abolition of the death penalty and instead life in jail for guilty capital offenders like premeditated murderers, rapists and pedophiles; the replacement of gold and silver currency for unjust weights and measures like paper money, debased coins and in the future a completely cashless economic system; the sanctioning of usury (interest) for loans; very little, if any, punishment for those in government, religion and other positions of power who lie and engage in corruption and cover ups; etc."
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I believe the Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights, is all impressive and noble. But it's not like they established a Theocracy under the guidance of the true God. They established a democracy, and God's way, like the COG's have taught many is a Theocracy. But see what you're doing is calling out the sins of America after WWII onward. You make it seem like no sins needed to be called out during that time.
All the while knowing about God's church through the ages, Paulicans Waldensians, Cathars, Anabaptist etc. but then when we get to the 1700's there's this tranquility . We must go hard in the paint on Constantine and the Council of Nicea and all the way through history until we get to the founding fathers. You guys act like that represented God's church. How about just looking at them like, 2 Kings 17:33 They feared the LORD, yet served their own gods—according to the rituals of the nations. COGs don't hold them to the same critique as everyone else in history.
I believe our U.S. Founding was inspired and blessed. I accept that it was Christian libertarian philosophy that maximized individual liberty, but it was not under OT Law. It was influenced/directed by Christian teachings of morality and faith.
ReplyDeleteThe Waldensians, Anabaptists, etc. did not teach what the COGs teach. They would need to change their beliefs or they would be asked to no longer attend the COGs. The Waldensians were not sabbath keepers for instance. The COGs do not accept Messianic Jews which are far closer to COG teaching than the Anabaptists, Waldensians, or any in the early Pennsylvania and Rhode Island churches. The beliefs simply do not match up.
The Churches of God grew out of Millerism that broke up after Jesus didn't return in 1844 (the Great Disappointment). The original sects were Shakers, Jehovah Witnesses, adventists, then seventh day adventists, then Church of God seventh day and then Armstrongs's Worldwide Church of God. The branch Davidians also came from Millerite and adventist roots.
There was no line of Christians that held to Armstrong's beliefs since the First Century. Even the "I will build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it" is misunderstood by the COGs.
We see so many of the fruits of the Millerite desperation to make sense of their disappointment. Some of those disappointed claimed Christ had in fact returned and that the millenium was here, others claimed the sabbath rest had in fact came upon them (but in their heart they knew it was not true), others felt they needed to start observing sabbath before Christ would return. It was from this disappointment that many on this forum were introduced to the eventual teachings of Armstrong. The cults of Jehovan's Witness, Shakers, and others like the branch Davidians, and yes Worldwide Church of God developed. And, all followed the teachings of a charismatic leader that prophecy Christ's Second Return:
Miller of the Millerites,
James White then his wife Prophetess Ellen White (7th day adventists),
The Shakers believed that Christ in fact returned in the person of their founder Mother Ann Lee (isn't this sad?),
Charles Taze Russel after involvement with the Millerites started the Jehovah Witnesses predicting Christ would return in 1874 and then in 1914 (Later russell said that Christ did return as an invisible spirit that would help his organization... Sad.)
Then Cranmer started the church of God seventh day including the Arian belief that Christ was a created being. Herbert Armstrong came from this group.
Herbert Armstrong started the radio church of God and the worldwide church of God. He was another charismatic leader that made many false prophesies regarding when Christ would return and who constitute the many eschatological roles in the book of Revelation.
That is the history of the COGs. It does not go to Peter Waldo or the Anabaptists. It does not go to 1st Century Christianity. It goes to the Millerites and the sect/cults that developed from it.
And, No, we cannot claim identity to the supposed Ten Lost tribes. But, fortunately, there is neither Jew nor Greek and the greater promises of the New Covenant are available to us. All you who are burdened with trying to make all these fabrications and false prophecies make sense can accept the easy yoke (teaching) of Christ Who is our rest.
Anon 6:54 AM
ReplyDeleteThanks for the info. I definitely cannot claim to know it all re DNA and haplogroups. Mind you I've recently heard of Nathaniel Jeanson's book "Traced" after hearing him give an interview with Answers in Genesis I think it was on YT and am interested in reading it to see what information he provides in support of the Biblical theory of origins.
Anon 7:56 said: "They established a democracy..."
I probably should have clarified my opinion further since it's my personal view the American Founding Fathers established a Christian Constitutional Republic, which has over time degenerated into the increasingly anti-Christian secularist democracy we see today. So we'll have to agree to disagree as regards to the form of government they founded.
And I'm sorry, but I'd happily wager they were "under the guidance of the true God" far more than our "politicians," "priests," "prophets" and "people" are today despite whatever their egregious sins were back then.
Anonymous 9:20
ReplyDeleteI had a brief look at Jeanson's theory. His principal concern is showing that humankind originate about 6,000 years ago. He is a Young Earth Creationist. He does this by correlating population growth with genetic branching. I would agree that there is a positive correlation - more people, more chance of genetic variation. But I am not sure that his way of creating a dynamic model is correct. If you read his book, also read some reviews.
Be that as it may, I don't think he makes any deductions that would overtly support BI. He does chunk up the human genome map in a strange way. There is a Ham sector, a Japheth sector and a Shem sector. (Somehow, on one of his graphics, he places haplogroup J in with Japheth and haplogroup R in with Shem. This seems very odd but I did not explore it further.) I am not sure how he justified this but it does seem very questionable. Essentially, he is chunking up a phylogentic form that does not lend itself to that kind of treatment. Look at the haplogroup hierarchy on Wikipedia and you will see what I mean. But I only looked at this briefly.
Be careful. No doubt Jeanson is a smart guy. But there are smart guys who believe in Armstrongism.
To anonymous 9:20
ReplyDeleteLincoln’s Gettysburg Address begins with the words, “Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, upon this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal“
So after the Battle of Gettysburg (one of the bloodiest battles of our Civil War), Lincoln is thinking back 87 years ago to 1776 of what the founding fathers mentioned regarding mankind. Now again, over 600K even possibly more had to die because these men wrote something that was beyond themselves. See they had an institution that nullified those words, that would eventually lead to a civil war. Correct, we will have to agree to disagree on the establishing “ under the guidance of a true God.”