Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders

Tuesday, May 23, 2023

COGWA: We don’t do watered-down?

 


COGWA: We don’t do watered-down?

By

Lonnie Hendrix

The Church of God: A Worldwide Association website proudly proclaims “Christianity is easy … when you remove its standards, blur its focus, and strip away its purpose. And a lot of churches are happy to do that for you. We aren’t one of them.” They go on to say: “Our job—the mission Christ gave to us—is to share God’s message of life, hope, and truth with the world. We don’t believe that message needs to be updated or polished or reinvented for the modern age.” Superficially, that sounds good - God doesn’t change, so we don’t either! However, when you get into the weeds of what they actually believe and teach, that focus does tend to blur, and some cognitive dissonance becomes apparent.

They say that the Bible doesn’t need to be updated, but then they turn around and preach that Israel’s identity in the modern age needs to be
updated! Unfortunately, like other groups which emerged from the trainwreck of Herbert Armstrong’s Worldwide Church of God, COGWA continues to teach a version of Anglo-Israelism. As part of their Life, Hope & Truth website, they have posted an introductory article by Mike Bennett titled 
Where is America in Prophecy? The articles listed there (“Blessings of Abraham,” “United States and Britain in Prophecy,” “Why is God Angry?” “U.S. Economic Collapse,” “What Will Happen to America?”) are supposed to answer the question: “What names does the Bible use and what does God foretell for the United States of America?” In Dave Treybig’s Who Are the United States and Britain in Prophecy?, we read that “the British Commonwealth has clearly been the group of nations best matching the prophecies related to Ephraim.” Likewise, according to Mr. Treybig, “As for Manasseh, the United States best fits the biblical description of being a “great” nation (Genesis 48:19) due to its economy and military strength…” But COGWA doesn’t “believe that message needs to be updated or polished or reinvented for the modern age.”

In the May/June issue of their Discern Magazine, Jeremy Lallier wrote an article titled The Danger of Cut-and-Paste Christianity. Jeremy asks, “What do you do with the parts of the Bible that challenge your worldview?” In other words, Mr. Lallier recognizes that parts of the Bible don’t seem to mesh with our modern notions about sexual orientation, tolerance, compassion, violence, and our own life experiences. He wrote: “The Bible is also a book that doesn’t always mesh with our own views about how things should work. There will be stories in the Bible where the words God says and the actions God takes are not the words you think He should say or the actions you think He should take.” He continued: “Whenever we come across parts of the Bible we don’t understand, don’t like, or don’t want to grapple with, we can start mentally cutting and pasting God’s Word until we arrive at a final product that makes sense to us. We replace what the book actually says with the version we’ve created in our minds.”

Unfortunately, while Mr. Lallier and COGWA appear to recognize the dangers inherent in “Cut-and-Paste Christianity,” they seem to be oblivious about how this applies to them! Like many of their counterparts in the ACOG movement, they simply cannot see that they have performed their own cut-and-paste operation on the Torah and other scriptures. They don’t see any dilemma in cutting out clean and unclean meats, tithing, and festival observance and pasting them onto the New Covenant while ignoring other provisions of the Law. They don’t see any dilemma in embracing the Torah’s prohibition of homosexual behavior and ignoring its provisions relative to wearing blended fabrics, receiving tattoos, regulating polygamy and slavery, mildew mitigation, and agricultural practices. Sure, like their counterparts, they justify their cherry-picking with elaborate arguments about different kinds of laws, etc., but the end result is the same!

COGWA also seems to be completely oblivious to the fact that our understanding of many things has greatly expanded over the last two to three thousand years. For them, the writings of the Bible seem to be frozen in time and space. In other words, there is no room for growing in grace and knowledge. For COGWA, it is apparent that the “letter of the law” takes precedence over the “spirit of the law.” Again, like many of their counterparts in the ACOG movement, they seem unable to differentiate between things that reflect the cultural milieu of ancient times and things that represent eternal spiritual principles that are applicable to all times and places.

Moreover, this insistence that the message doesn’t need to be updated goes to the very heart of the ACOG’s (and the larger Christian community’s) problem with attracting interest from younger folks and other more liberally inclined segments of our society. In an online article that originally appeared on News Nation titled Younger generations are 'reckoning' with religion: Theologian, we read: “‘We are reckoning with the ways that so much of our traditional teachings don’t align with the kind of people that we’re trying to be, and that is, in and of itself, the biggest issue,’ said theologian Candice Benbow.” Continuing, we read: “‘When we’re looking at younger generations and populations of people, they are really asking questions about what does it mean to do life with people? What does it mean to honor people’s individuality? What does it mean to honor people’s lived experiences, and not be so beholden to dogmas, that, when you think about it … have taught us really not to see people as people,’ Benbow said.” For those who may be interested, the website which published the research, Public Religion Research Institute, can be found here: https://www.prri.org/topic/religion-culture/

Unfortunately, in the name of defending the inerrancy of Scripture, COGWA has fallen into the same trap that has ensnared most of the other ACOGs (and many other mainstream denominations and groups). To be clear, the Bible and Christianity ARE still relevant! However, the failure of groups like COGWA to update and/or reevaluate their messaging in light of the many scientific and cultural advances of the last five hundred years has severely curtailed the appeal of their messaging and caused a large part of their potential audience to ignore and/or dismiss them out of hand. In a similar fashion, they stubbornly refuse to even entertain the findings of modern Biblical scholarship or the thinking and interpretations of folks who have done deep dives into the original languages and writings which we call the Bible. But don’t hold your breath waiting for a change! As their website indicates, they will probably be preaching the exact same message when the last member turns out the lights for the last time! What do you think?

 

62 comments:

  1. Reading the promises God made to Abraham and looking world history confirms Anglo-Israelism in my books. The holy spirit has also confirmed both this doctrine and the holy days to me. Plus I can read the bible for myself so I don't need so called deep dive experts to tell me what it says. I don't need mental seeing eye dogs.
    Since this author is so at odds with these groups theology, why focus on them at all?

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    Replies
    1. With all do respect Anon 7:19, British Israelism is a false doctrine. I used to believe it as well. A deacon in one of the COG groups challenged me on the doctrine. He couldn't answer not 1 of my many questions. There was 1 question he asked that I couldn't answer at the time but I am able to answer it now. I went through the scriptures, concordance, historians, maps, biblical timelines, and history with him. You can actually disprove BI with the bible along if you know where to look. The booklets you get from COG groups have some errors in them. Do your research

      Delete
  2. Let's face it. Orthodox "Christianity" sets the bar so low that anybody can make it just by believing. Why should belief matter? Why would a mere OPINION ensure our salvation? There is no logic to it. It is merely drilled into people's heads by repetition. It makes no sense. It only makes sense if the whole thing is fake. In Judaism, people made it just by being born Jews. That was stupid too. So a new fake system had to replace it. A new excuse was needed.

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  3. Let's face it. Your imaginary beliefs about "orthodox" Christianity y is so far off base it is laughable. It makes you look like a fool when you say stuff like your did. Your naivety or sheer stupidity has blinded you to what really matters and it is most curtly NOT law keeping.

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  4. Let's face it. Your imaginary beliefs about "orthodox" Christianity is so far off base it is laughable. It makes you look like a fool when you say stuff like your did. Your naivety or sheer stupidity has blinded you to what really matters and it is most curtly NOT law keeping.

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  5. Everything I thought I knew about beliefs, how they are arrived at by humans, and how they regulate our behavior, got pitched sideways as I watched a certain political movement burst on the scene in 2016 and eradicate all propriety and convention. I've never seen such sickness in my lifetime on the planet. Confidence in all of our most cherished institutions, the bedrock of our existences as a civilization, has been deliberately destroyed. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of how horrifying it must have been for typical citizens in Iran as their very regressive revolution unfolded in the late 1970s, yanking them back into the 1100s. Shedding knowledge in favor of stupidity. And, all to support the emergence of authoritarian power. It pales our experiences in Armstrongism into insignificance.

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  6. People are always misquoting Jesus. This article is no different.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfheSAcCsrE

    ReplyDelete
  7. ... in Iran as their very regressive revolution unfolded in the late 1970s, yanking them back into the 1100s. Shedding knowledge in favor of stupidity

    Rejecting lies, degeneracy, foreign domination, and subversion and standing up for family values. Good for them.

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  8. Numbers 14:4 "Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt." This is what the Iranians have chosen to do." Family values? Ask the women in these countries about their family values?
    Yes, Taliban values appeals to many.

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  9. Remember fake names on your anti God blog, that's only existed since the UCG COGWA split Let no deceit be in your mouth.
    OUCH!!

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  10. Lonnie,

    This could have been a good article, but too often you detour into seemingly justifying homosexuality and the like. This is much different from foolishly believing HWA's "new revelations". For almost two thousand years of orthodox Christianity homosexual practice was recognized as wrong and taught against in the New Testament.

    The recognition that COGWA has watered down the Gospel is the main point. Their new 20th century religion watered down the Gospel. With a stirring voice and claimed prophetic vision, Herbert Armstrong brought in those that wanted more than the Gospel. The New Age had begun and Herbert Armstrong was riding its wave.

    As a mostly failed marketer, Herbert Armstrong hit on niche marketing and found and attracted the niche of people that were dissatisfied with the Gospel. They wanted something new, and Armstrong gave it to them.

    He told us that virtually all Christians before him and after the first century were fake.

    He told us that faith was inadequate (talk about watering down) and we had to follow his version of the gospel and avoid all the pagan Christians that built our greatest institutions (hospitals, orphanages, colleges, art centers, etc.), ended slavery, raised the position of women, gave hope to billions, protected the helpless, etc. Not perfectly of course, but a vast improvement.

    Armstrong and the COGs water down the great accomplishments and successes of individual Christians and of Christian churches and organizations. They water down the good that we can currently do in this world by saying, "it isn't their time, just ours." They water down the current hope and salvation we have in Christ, by focusing on primarily future hope and salvation.

    I'll stop there, but I hope others might provide additional comments on how Armstrongism and the COGs have watered down the Gospel and Christ.

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  11. I appreciate the analysis contained in this essay. The author makes a diagnosis that is accurate and prescriptive for healing. But I also agree with his later assessment when he states, "But don’t hold your breath waiting for a change!"

    Let me offer an observation about this resistance to change. Armstrongism has made a business off of being theologically contrarian. So, for the little denominations of Splinter Land to gravitate to doctrinal orthodoxy is to lose their business model based on that contrarianism. With each update to doctrine they make, they can expect to lose members and revenue. So, business interacts with theology.

    Some in Splinter Land would tout their loyalty and faith in the certainty of their Armstrongist beliefs. But Faith is open-minded and willing to prove what is good. Faith engages a process of growth. Faith is unafraid. Presumptive Certainty is close-minded, does not grow and is bound by stasis. And at its core, this kind of Certainty is full of fear – fear of the loss of the revenue engine that contrarianism once was back in the Golden Days of the WCG, fear of even a beneficial shift in theology.

    Peter Enns in his book titled “The Sin of Certainty: Why God Desires Our Trust More Than Our “Correct” Beliefs”, stated:

    “Church is too often the most risky place to be spiritually honest.”

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  12. It's pretty obvious that most commenters on this site never really understood Armstrongism. A lot of their ignorance stems from never having thoroughly read and understood the literature. Now they have moved on to other beliefs they don't really understand either. A lack of serious and level-headed study seems to be the norm. Even the "experts" can't agree on Jesus, or even whether he actually lived. What a mess.

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  13. As I reread Lonnie's post, I retract that he is seeming to justify certain wrong behaviors. But, it is not a good example of instruction that is found in the Torah that does not have current application, as it is also taught against in the New Testament.

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  14. HENDRIX WRITES:
    They don’t see any dilemma in embracing the Torah’s prohibition of homosexual behavior ...

    MY COMMENT:
    There are plenty of places in the New Testament that also prohibit homosexual behavior. This therefore is not just some cultural or "time and place" consideration, and is a universal condemnation. Sodom and Gomorrah occurred BEFORE there was a written Torah.

    As far as the US/BC thing, no one, in a straight reading of the Bible , would EVER come up with the idea that King Charles sits on the throne of David. I am a "sola scriptura" believer. To believe in the US/BC requires faith in very disputable and twisted "Irish Legends" and myths, and ignoring all DNA evidence, historical and linguistic history, and much more. US/BC is a Gnostic teaching, and a mystery religion that has no place in Christianity.

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  15. Anon732,
    You always say this same thing. Sorry, I was there. I have a good memory, a high IQ, received top marks at AC, was more diligent than most in my behavior, and am a happy and thankful Christian that feels it is my duty to point out the false doctrine that the wcg and cogs teach.

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  16. COGWA might water things down a little bit with such things as its Winter Family X-mass Weekend custom.

    Lonnie Hendrix tries to water things down a whole lot more with his suggestion that homosexuality is not as bad as God says it is.

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  17. They all still teach BI. Herbert's 1975 in prophecy showed the world that he had not a clue what he was speaking about. If there ever was a beast power it is the USA. If the USA was ever to fall in war, it would not be by Germany or any other EU country, it would be by the hands of a unified Russia and China in warfare.

    No, the armstrong spitoffs are all lying thru their teeth and they know it.

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  18. Anonymous at 6:22 AM said...“With all do respect Anon 7:19, British Israelism is a false doctrine. I used to believe it as well. A deacon in one of the COG groups challenged me on the doctrine. He couldn't answer not 1 of my many questions. There was 1 question he asked that I couldn't answer at the time but I am able to answer it now. I went through the scriptures, concordance, historians, maps, biblical timelines, and history with him. You can actually disprove BI with the bible along if you know where to look. The booklets you get from COG groups have some errors in them. Do your research”

    You are just making a bunch of big claims here without actually showing any proof at all.

    GIVE SOME DETAILS. Show the best you have.

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    Replies
    1. Why don't you start it? Why don't you do your own research? That's what's wrong with people in the COG groups. They never do there research. I bet you don't even know the name of the person who baptized HWA.

      Delete
  19. Tonto at 7:44 AM said...“US/BC is a Gnostic teaching, and a mystery religion that has no place in Christianity.”

    Tonto go bad. Now Tonto hope HWA was wrong.

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  20. anon945, here is something simple. You presumably support British Israelitism and that the U.S. is Manasseh, so here is the breakdown of U.S. heritages:

    18.7% Hispanic
    12.3% German
    12.1% African
    12.0% Irish
    10.0% English
    5.9% Asian
    4.8% Italian
    3% French
    2% Scandinavian Nordic
    1.1% Native American Pacific islander
    4% simply claim mixed

    This leaves about 14.1% to find some Manasseh in. This is obviously a minority population. Some of that percentage too is a smattering of other nationalities in this country and would also contain the scattered tribes of Levi and Simeon that Armstrong said would be scattered among the tribes. Maybe that is another couple percentages? That probably would leaves a population percentage under 12% which is less than the percentage of those hated Assyrians (Germans) who are responsible for the first captivity and highly exaggerated scattering.

    Still, the Armstrongist says the U.S. is Manasseh.


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  21. Here is a worthy read on the anglo israelism movement.
    https://armstrongdelusion.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/a-broken-key-the-case-against-british-israelism-part-one/

    https://armstrongdelusion.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/a-broken-key-the-case-against-british-israelism-part-two/

    https://armstrongdelusion.wordpress.com/2011/08/06/a-broken-key-the-case-against-british-israelism-part-three/

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  22. jim at 11:25 AM,

    The USA's southern border leak under the Democrats is deliberately diluting the nation even more. There seems to have arisen a great hatred of the white people in the USA. Enemies would like to displace the white people and replace them. Perhaps this is punishment that has something to do with the white people totally rejecting God and becoming utterly depraved with the LGBTQ agenda.

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  23. "Confusing genders is something God says is wrong and is contrary to His created order. Deuteronomy 22:5 says, 'A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the LORD your God.'" - What Does the Bible Say About Gender Identity? by Doug Horchak in March/April 2023 issue of "Discern" magazine

    God says it's an abomination - case closed. Just how receptive do you think young folks who actually have transgender friends or family members are going to be to such a message? How do you think liberal/progressive folks are going to receive such a presentation? Do you think they'll even finish the article or even entertain the views expressed there if they do?

    Jesus certainly never compromised with God's morality or contradicted it, and yet his ministry clearly focused on the sinners in the First Century. Moreover, in ALL of the stories contained in the four gospels, he exercised compassion and patience in how he dealt with those folks. He always reserved his fire for the religious elite of his day. NOTICE Christ's approach in the New Testament. His ministry was one of healing and going after the lost sheep - the ones who weren't obeying God's laws!

    The messaging of COGWA and the other ACOGs ignores or dismisses large segments of our society. The attitude seems to be "God says that you folks are perverts and abominations, and you're going to end up in the Lake of Fire unless you repent." OR "You perverts are causing the downfall of America/Western civilization!" They're writing a bunch of folks off - the very ones whom they should be reaching out to - if they were truly interested in following Christ's example! Who is your audience? If you're intent is to preach to the choir - to try to appeal to folks who already see things the same way you do, then I guess COGWA's messaging is just fine!

    Finally, COGWA and the other ACOGs have a built-in bias against science and education. They don't do nuance or subtlety. A recognition that sexual orientation is NOT the same as engaging in homosexual activity would go a long way toward putting together an outreach to gay people and the folks who support them. Folks didn't understand sexual orientation two or three thousand years ago. We have a better grasp of that now, and our opinions and messaging should reflect that. If it doesn't, you're not likely to be taken very seriously by anyone who is aware of what we've discovered about such things.

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  24. Anonymous at 11:41 AM,

    Casey Wollberg said in the last paragraph of Part 3:

    “In other words, there’s no such thing as a fucking 'soon coming Tribulation', except in the pea-sized brains of morons and pious frauds who have a hard-on for reading their fantasies into Iron Age propaganda from a book full of superstitious myths. This nonsense has no connection with reality. Now, stop worrying and enjoy your goddamn life.”


    Wow! So scholarly. And he thinks he has refuted not only BI but the Bible too.

    ReplyDelete
  25. 11.25 AM, interesting list but there are many scriptures about God gathering scattered Israel such as Isaiah 54:7, Ezekiel 11:17, Jeremiah 50:4-5, Deuteronomy 4:27-31, Isaiah 5:26 etc. How do do think God will accomplish this unless there are genetic markers telling Him every persons genetic history? God's list is far superior to yours, and just because America, like England has foolishly allowed a high percentage of gentiles into their country, doesn't take away from God giving these countries to certain tribes of Israel.

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  26. Lonnie, I really appreciated your article, as always. For all in the comments here who seem to be a bit fixated on homosexuality, just remember, under the New Covenant, it is not just homosexuality Jesus decried. He loathes heterosexual immorality. He loathes lust be it hetero/homosexual, in our hearts, even if we don't act upon it. I don't think we give anywhere near enough thought to just how deep all of our sins run. There are sins of omission, commission, forgotten, etc in addition to the known and listed ones. God never told us that heterosexual sins are less grievous to Him than homosexual ones. All sin is an abomination to a HOLY God. The worst of which, according to Scripture is idolatry.

    I don't know about you guys, but I give praise, thanks and glory to God morning, noon and night for the propitiation of Jesus Christ! Every single one of us would be doomed if it were not for His completed atonement, on our behalf. I am a sinner, saved by Jesus Christ, sins forgiven (past, present and future) and have been made right with God. If you are in Christ, your sins are remembered no more and have been removed as far as the east is from the west. IF you are in Christ.

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  27. 1:28

    Y chromosome haplogroups can be used to differentiate groups of people. (As an Armstrongist, you may not want to go there. It does not have a happy conclusion for you.) The haplogroup for Jews is haplogroup J. For the British and other Western Europeans, the haplogroup is principally R1b. For Eastern Europeans there is more R1a.

    Throughout Europe as a whole, from the Urals to the Atlantic, people have varying mixtures of three genetic groups. This is known from what is called autosomal studies. The three groups are haplogroup R (R1a and R1b), haplogroup I and haplogroup G. Two facts about the people of Britain:

    1. They are no different from other Europeans. British are composed of the same three groups of people - maybe in slightly different proportions. Autosomal content in the genomes related to haplogroup G, for instance, increase as one travels from north to south in Europe. The three-group rule also applies to Europeans who have migrated to North America. There is no separate genetic marker for people who are putatively Manasseh. The British are actually quite close in the three group admixture proportions to the Ukrainians. Only in the East you find R1b replaced by R1a as the dominant haplogroup R strain.

    2. The marker for the Jews is haplogroup J. This excludes the British who are haplogroup R1b. This points clearly to the fact that the people of the British Isles (Celts and Anglo-Saxons) are Gentiles.

    This takes a little tenacity but have a look at the following two articles. Keep in mind that most of the people who have followed this blog for a while have already read this material:

    https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2023/01/bubonic-plague-massacres-captive-women.html

    https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2022/06/two-biblical-cases-against-british.html

    Viel SpaĂź beim Lesen!

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  28. 7:32

    "It's pretty obvious that most commenters on this site never really understood Armstrongism."

    If it so obvious, why don't you cite something. Some of the people who contribute here went to Ambassador College. I wonder if you did.

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  29. DW,
    I don't think anyone came down hard on the homosexuality issue here in the comments. Behavior was always the focus, not the individual or tendency. Of course care and empathy must always be shown to the individual. It is not an easy thing to deal with and I've always had respect for Lonnie in how he deals with it. I simply felt Lonnie used it in the Torah example clumsily. I would have said the same thing if he replaced homosexuality with adultery as both are also prohibited in the New Testament.

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  30. Christ forgiving our sins does not mean that the natural consequences of sin are removed. On the contrary, they are still present. For example, those who dropped out of school still have poorer paying jobs even after repenting of not embracing the opportunity given.
    The moral of the story is: IF YOU PLAY, YOU PAY.

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  31. "Christ forgiving our sins does not mean that the natural consequences of sin are removed. On the contrary, they are still present. For example, those who dropped out of school still have poorer paying jobs even after repenting of not embracing the opportunity given.
    The moral of the story is: IF YOU PLAY, YOU PAY."

    It always amazes me how infuriated COG legalists get with grace. They expect, no DEMAND! a punishment for what ever they deem as a sin.

    Under grace the person knows that they are forgiven and what ever "consequences" they might be suffering they know that Christ is walking next them through that wherever that journey is taking them on, resting in full confidence that regardless of what they may have done their salvation is secure in Christ.

    Far too many COG Members demand a spanking god that dishes out judgment without mercy. They need to see sinners suffer. All of that nonsense is thanks to Herb, Meredith, Waterhouse, McNair, Rittenbaugh, and others who thrived on a vengeful god.

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  32. “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." - Jesus Christ

    Unfortunately, we sometimes forget that God is in the process of SAVING the world. Like DW, I thank God that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and gave his life as a sacrifice for my sins and yours, and that he was resurrected to sit at the right hand of God and act as our advocate. Praise God, the Spokesman, and the Holy Spirit! Amen!

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  33. "Never really understood Armstrongism".

    Define "understood". Do you mean "grasped the concepts", or do you mean "embraced the concepts as truth and attempted to live them"?

    Are you implying that if one understands, it is unavoidable that one will see it as ultimate truth?

    I did go to Ambassador College, and as I continued to learn, found Armstrongism to be deficient and wanting. It appeared to be for simple-minded people who are easily manipulated, defective, and damaging to the human psyche. Toxic is an overused cliche, but yes, it was also that.

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  34. Blessings and Curses

    Britain and the USA translated the Holy Bible from the original Hebrew of the Old Testament and the original Greek of the New Testament into English. That gave the common people of these great countries the blessing of access to the knowledge of the laws of God, which tell what is right and wrong in God's opinion.

    Now, most people in Britain and the USA have turned against the laws of God in all sorts of ways. Merely quoting some of God's laws that oppose the LGBTQ agenda is now considered to be a “hate crime” in some places.

    The things that God calls “sins” and even “abominations” are now starting to rage away in Britain and the USA. People will get to see for themselves how that works out in actual practice. They might not like all the results. For example, male perverts and predators no longer have to hide in closets, but now get to walk openly into women's formerly private spaces. In the past, everyone including the pervert knew that this was wrong, but now everyone including the police do not know right from wrong. They are suffering from one of the curses for disobedience to God's laws that is called “confusion of the mind.”

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  35. A lot of people who went to AC had some knowledge but still didn't get it. It's not just about head knowledge. Look at how fast so many of them--the vast majority--"flipped" when Tkach took over with his superficial silliness, which was no better than Armstrongism.

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  36. The "tendency" is created before three years of age in many cases, or due to abuse at an older age. Do your research and stop listening to the LIARS who are so prevalant today. Sheesh. It is a destructive mental illness.

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  37. "why don't you cite something"

    I've cited a zillion things. Still, they remain obstinate.

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  38. You haven’t cited a damn thing here. Just anonymous mouth diarrhea.

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  39. While I attended services many years ago, the congregation was asked to pray for a young man who had fallen off a cliff. It came out that he was having a "leak" at the edge of a cliff, and a gust of wind swept him off the edge. He survived but typically such people never fully recover. Lifelong pains and restricted body movements are the norm. Christ's sacrifice, grace, forgiveness will not remove the natural consequences of such mistakes. Which is why Christ quoted to Satan "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." Which is why God stresses over and over in the old testament to carefully obey His laws. This emphasis on God forgives on this blog is painting the wrong picture.

    "For with what judgement you judge, you will be judged" implies a soft on crime approach. And it doesn't work. When a narcissist gets away with abusing a victim, the frequency and intensity of the abuse increases. In my my experience, the soft on crime advocates are the abusers. It's the fox preaching to the chickens.

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  40. Anon454.

    Good clarifying comment.

    "Under grace the person knows that they are forgiven and what ever "consequences" they might be suffering they know that Christ is walking next them through that wherever that journey is taking them on, resting in full confidence that regardless of what they may have done their salvation is secure in Christ."

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  41. @ 7:32

    Armstrongism is contradictory:

    If HWA was divinely called in the early 30s, why did he have to "prove" sabbatarianism at a secular library?

    And if WCG was "divinely inspired", why did they have to burn somewhere between 10 - 50 million dollars building an accredited university in Texas? (only to dump it on the real estate market for pennies-on-the-dollar a few years later!)

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  42. @ Tonto


    Your CoG7, like the ACoGs, makes orthodox-sounding statements to hide their heresies:

    But Wikipedia 'outs' them as having Arianist roots:
    ..the source of HWA/ACoG/CoG7 Arianist/ditheist/Armstrongist christological heresies.

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  43. 957, physical Israel follows spiritual Israel, so it won't be long before America's economy and military is shredded to the equivalent of pennies-on-the-dollar as well.
    Venezuela here we come.

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  44. Just anonymous mouth diarrhea.

    Speak for your self, Anon. Heck, you could be the same person talking to yourself. .

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  45. Define "understood". Do you mean "grasped the concepts", or do you mean "embraced the concepts as truth and attempted to live them"?

    Both. In addition, they did not have very deep knowlegde, generally speaking. Further, they did not do much background research.

    Example: all those dingbats who abandoned Armstrongism then started keeping pagan practices of traditional Christianity. If they had actually studied history they would have known there was tons of evidence that those things were not Christian. They acted like Herbie got it all from Hislop, and well, we can just ignore that one guy Hislop, and so it was all balderdash, so let's just go right back to it. That is just so phenomenally ignorant it defies any sense.

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  46. A friend sent this comment to my private email:

    Valid points. Yet all Christian churches cherry pick, don't they? (Interestingly, there are apparently over 1,200 types of cherries in the world!) For example, I have known of several people who converted to Catholicism because they concluded that the RCC was the original and most authentic of all the Christian churches that they knew, yet they're the oldest cherry-pickers of all, IMO. In fact, even the Latter-Day Saints claim that they alone are the genuine article. If they're not cherry-pickers, then who is?

    My spouse stopped attending any of the churches of God over 20 years ago, and our children stopped also when they left home. Once they moved to another city a few years ago, they (of their own choice) started attending a UCG congregation. There is much they don't agree with, but I get the sense that they enjoy the company of some of the friends they have made there. Recently, one of the children visited the local COGWA congregation and told me everyone was extremely warm and welcoming. Again, they probably would have less in common with folks there than at UCG but I guess they both feel a certain comfort being with a church of God, even though neither are baptized or attend the Feast or accept doctrines such as British-Israelism. The one who visited COGWA also visited many different Christian churches during their college days but none of them ever really clicked for them. Again, they are not theologians but do seem to find something of value in attending. Mostly the people, I would say.

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  47. Tkach's $50m Ambassador-U Texas:
    up in smoke barely after it opened!
    biggest tithe-burn in the history of Christendom!
    all the while paying himself massive "salary"!
    the more they make, the worse they are [HWA]!

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  48. 644,

    Grammar including neither sentence fragments nor run on sentences would help your posts make better sense.

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  49. Miller,

    I would point out to your friend that it matters what one cherry picks and the extent to which it is used. The COG cherry picking to the damage of the Gospel is most serious. Cherry picking to the extent that almost all your doctrines hinge on the cherry picking of each doctrine or the entire doctrinal system collapses (as is present in the COGs) is extreme cherry picking. Most other churches will address other verses rather than avoid whole chapters of galatians and Romans as the COGs do.

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  50. 6:44, the most damnable influence of Hislop on HWA/WCG was not the pseudo-history which was presented in "The Two Babylons". No, it was the fact that HWA gleefully copied Alexander Hislop's "research" methodology, as is quite evident to anyone who has ever read "The True History of the True Church", listened to HWA's theories about a lost century of church history and Simon Magus, his fictions regarding the activities of Nimrod, or all of the Garner Ted Armstrong articles on evolution. Of course a similar writer, also an HWA fave, was Immanuel Velikovsky.

    The terms "Ambassador College" and "research" are non sequiturs. Debate style research was taught and used, in which persuasive facts are collected and lifted from context to support and win one's side of a debate. While this is a good exercise in rhetoric and oratorship, it is by no means scientific, or even actually real! Science follows an evidentiary trail and draws conclusions which are tested and retested. One deliberately attempts to prove the conclusions wrong in order to verify them as correct and factual. Armstrongism fell apart when learned church members decided that it was not presumptuous to test the church's set of gnosticism, and actually disproved the vast majority of it. And, their work has been shared on all of the so-called "dissident" sites for decades now, including this one.

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  51. Another example:

    I knew someone who had grown up in the church from childhood, and at age 30 or so, did not understand Herb's teaching about Pentecost, i.e. WHY there are "firstfruits," that is WHY we were "called now in this age" rather than after Jesus returns. They just didn't get it.

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  52. Jim 11:25 said: "...You presumably support British Israelitism and that the U.S. is Manasseh, so here is the breakdown of U.S. heritages:

    18.7% Hispanic
    12.3% German
    12.1% African
    12.0% Irish
    10.0% English
    5.9% Asian
    4.8% Italian
    3% French
    2% Scandinavian Nordic
    1.1% Native American Pacific islander
    4% simply claim mixed

    This leaves about 14.1% to find some Manasseh in. This is obviously a minority population. Some of that percentage too is a smattering of other nationalities in this country and would also contain the scattered tribes of Levi and Simeon that Armstrong said would be scattered among the tribes. Maybe that is another couple percentages? That probably would leaves a population percentage under 12% which is less than the percentage of those hated Assyrians (Germans) who are responsible for the first captivity and highly exaggerated scattering.

    Still, the Armstrongist says the U.S. is Manasseh."

    My comment:
    Problem is you're looking at nationalities not Y-haplogroups imo. Out of the top ten 6 are European for starters. Then the question is what is the dominant Y-haplogroup of all of these immigrants? I understand that due to European men having sex with Native American Indian women or African slaves that there are men within these latter two groups who might actually have European Y-haplogroups. In any case I think it's more important to know the dominant Y-haplogroup of the American population rather than focusing on the nationalities.

    -----
    3:18 said: "...The haplogroup for Jews is haplogroup J."

    My comment:
    Nathaniel Jeanson in his excellent work "Traced" puts forward the theory that Y-hapogroup J1 and J2 are of Japheth. The former "Possibly early Hittite lineage which became a later Arab Muslim lineage" and the latter "Possibly ancient Persian lineage, which joined with Turkic migrations in later AD era" (color plate 235). Jeanson proposes Y-haplogroup L is of Shem and "Might be the Edomites or Lost Tribes of Israel" while Y-haplgroup T is of Shem and "Likely lineage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the Jews."
    Either way I believe the evidence shows that there's much more yet to be discovered about which Y-haplogroups descend from which Biblical persons.
    -----

    And re Matt 7:1-2

    As John 7:24 adds to the quote I believe it's got nothing to do with being tolerant of sin and not judging anyone who is living in sin since judgement exists everywhere be it in the courtroom, classroom, congress, church or home etc. What Christ was pointing out was that if you sit in judgement of another you must be guiltless of the same sins (or worse sins) than the person you are judging otherwise you're a hypocrite like the Pharisees were (see John 8 and the "woman caught in adultery" as a prime example).

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  53. ALL of the male descendants of Terah would have the SAME Y haplogroup. ALL of the male descendants of Abraham and Lot would have the SAME Y haplogroup. That means Israelites, Abraham's descendants through Keturah, Ishmaelites, Edomites, Moabites and Ammonites. Hence, clearly, male Israelites would have shared the SAME Y haplogroup that the males of other Middle Eastern peoples possessed.

    The context of Christ's remarks in the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew make very clear that Christ is talking about human sins/flaws/faults (read verses 1-6). Christ's comment in the seventh chapter of the Gospel of John was in reaction to being judged/condemned for healing on the Sabbath (see verse 23). Also, I would point out that the story of the woman caught in adultery in verses 1-11 of the eighth chapter of that same Gospel (John) makes very clear that Christ was talking about judging sin in others. And, YES, it would be blatantly hypocritical to do so in the light of our own sinfulness - that is the point! After all, we have all sinned and fallen far short of God's glory and righteousness. Christ didn't condone sin, but he did love and welcome sinners. Moreover, these reactions to sinfulness in others are also consistent with the Golden Rule (treating others the way in which you would like to be treated).

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  54. 9:09, do you attempt to determine the haplogroups of Shakespeare's characters in his plays as well as the characters in the Bible?

    It's not a ridiculous question. Archaeologists have not been able to confirm the existence of the characters you cited.

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  55. I don't agree with your commentary on COGWA! Having gone through now TWO apostasies (once in the Worldwide Church of God and once in the Restored church of another god), and after much research, COGWA teaches the truth about the Bible and they have a multitude of Christian tools to offer anyone wishing to further their understanding of the Bible. You must be on the "athiest" list like so many people are in the world, leaving no room for anything positive from any offshoot of the WWCG!!!

    Believe me, after 440 sermons that David C. Pack, of the Restored Church of God now has and listening to most of those twisted sermons on false prophesy and false doctrines and blaspheming of God, I don't think there is any offspring out there who can force multitudes of people into counseling.

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  56. What a joke if you believe COGWA teaches the truth. They have apostatized twice now and the last time they did it they took as much money and members as they could with them. They preach legalism and outright lies. Their worship of the law over following Jesus and grace damns them for their ignorance. Get out now and heal your spiritual life!

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  57. Oh noes!!!!!!! Robin is upset that she got called out for attending a cult.

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  58. I was in COGWA and yes, I absolutely guarantee they water it down.

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