HWA declared himself to be a false prophet
I realize that there are many twists and turns to the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) story, but it is sobering to me that so many COG members in the offshoots (e.g., UCG, LCG, COGWA) know so little about the actual history of the WCG.
Perhaps a stellar example of this is the appalling ignorance of Herbert Armstrong’s (HWA) often histrionic behavior and failed prophetic utterances. Some claim that all HWA did was speculate about the future, but that is not true according to HWA himself. HWA in his radio broadcast apparently linked his prophetic interpretations and utterances to the standard in Deuteronomy 18.
Deuteronomy 18:18-22 New International Version
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The most readily accessible example of this reckless behavior can be found in David Barrett’s excellent study of the collapse of WCG: “The Fragmentation of a Sect”. Barrett cites the late Richard Nickels a well-known researcher and COG historian. Nickels concluded that HWA labeled himself a false prophet based on this direct quote from an early World Tomorrow radio broadcast:
“A terrible famine is coming on the United States, that is going to ruin us as a nation inside of less than twenty years. Alright, I stuck my neck out there. You just wait twenty years and see whether I told you the truth. God says, if a man tells you what’s going to happen, wait and see. If it doesn’t happen, he was not speaking the word of God, he’s speaking out of his own mind. If it happens, you’ll know God sent him.”
HWA clearly spoke out his own grandiose self-delusions and not for God resulting in incredible harm to those who trusted him. There are still many ignorant people even now in the COG, and it is time to share the above documentation with them – graciously -- especially the young members of UCG, LCG and COGWA.
Aristophanes
It would be interesting if someone could produce a recording of the broadcast this quote was taken from.
ReplyDeleteHere it is, spread it and share.
DeleteIt's featured in "called to be free" https://youtu.be/UB-mxI6OC_A
Also here: https://herbertwarmstrong.com/video-commentary/
DeleteSorry, but I was there and we were NOT told that it was definite. It was considered a theory which might not be right. I was advised not to make important decisions based on it. You are ensnaring yourself by your own thinking.
ReplyDeleteLet me mention a complication. The scriptures from Deuteronomy refer to someone who is somehow recognized as a credentialed prophet. I do not know how this was done in ancient Israel. I will do some research but just wanted to mention this now. The question then becomes whether the scriptures in Deuteronomy are really appplicable to HWA if he was not an acknowledged prophet. He may have just rated as an "interpreter" of the Biblical Prophets rather than a Prophet proper. I believe that everything he said putatively stemmed from an interpretation of Bible prophecy.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I can recall that might be an official assertion of his status as a Prophet is the fact that many seem to refer to him as The Elijah. But did he ever refer to himself as an Elijah?
I don't mean to be legalistic but I am being legalistic.
Scout
Yes he referred to himself as a "voice crying in the wilderness" what is he proclaiming there? And, you're making up logic. Deuteronomy is not warning us about a legit prophet, it's warning us about fakes and phoneys, like hwa
DeleteHerbert Armstrong was a false prophet however numerous people in the church of god groups would rather not acknowledge the reality with regards to Herbert Armstrong.
ReplyDeleteHe made numerous expectations during his time, and a considerable lot of them have not happened. Some were plain wrong. This qualifies him as a false prophet if he claimed to to be a prophet.
ReplyDeleteOf course nobody wants a member of their tribe or team to be repudiated, so they find ways of excusing him or downplaying his impact.
ReplyDeleteFact, HWA cited certain things to manipulate people into modifying their behavior. During the 1950s and 1960s, the vast majority of members actively believed that we church members would flee in 1972, and Jesus Christ would return in 1975. If you as a member did not believe this during that time period, you were considered to be not all in, not with the plan, Laodicean. Some people maintain today that they never believed that back then, never even read "1975 in Prophecy", "The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy", or "The Book of Revelation Unveiled at Last", and were only there because HWA had the "truth" about the Sabbath. I call BS on that, just as I call BS on them denying that children were punished to the level of abuse, or beaten as it is commonly known. Anyone who comes on here with that sort of revisionist, white-washing type of talk is a liar, and full of $hit, and they KNOW it!
We were taught three math equations in Bible Class at AC in the mid-'60s that "proved" that we'd be through and fleeing to Petra in 1972, and that Jesus Christ would return in 1975. Others of my classmates were sitting in Bible class that day and have attested to my truthfulness in making that statement right here and at some of the other sites throughout the past decades. Where do you think madman Dave Pack has gotten his patterns? You think that's something new? He got that BS straight from HWA. The only difference is that Dave seems to be stuck in a pattern of perseveration, whereas HWA backpedaled when he realized that the garbage with which he spiritually raped us just wasn't going to happen!
Some of you people are going to continue to imagine reasons to believe that Herbert Armstrong was an end time apostle, and that when he made his dogmatic statements about the future to manipulate us, he was not being a false prophet. Well, call it what you will, but people died and were impoverished unnecessarily because of his words about the immediate future.. He let his own wife (who was actually his conscience) die from a condition which was totally curable, while seeing doctors himself! He hid behind the sabbath, and implemented despicable tyrannical policies in his church fully knowing that as long as he lauded the sainted sabbath, people of a certain mindset would give him a pass on almost anything! Shame on anyone who does not hold him accountable, and on anyone who will not even bother to do their due diligence as they choose a belief system.
Don't get me wrong, I really do love Armstrongites! I just wish they'd repent of their Armstrongism. And knock off the rose colored glasses routine when speaking of the so-called "golden era", That was not a golden era, it was our own, personal tribulation!
HWA never was a prophet. And today neither are GRF, DCP, Dr. BT, RW, and many others...
ReplyDeleteHow do you come to these conclusions NO2HWA? Rubbish that many new to splinters don't know the WCG history....exposing much again....
ReplyDeleteDo you promote the Catholic Barlett book because your one of Barletts named sources ???
How do you keep misusing the ellipsis?
DeleteUsing your standard I suppose Paul (and maybe all of the Apostles) was a false prophet. He fully expected Jesus to return in his lifetime.
ReplyDeleteYou keep hoping that if you can prove HWA wrong on something you will be absolved of your obligation to keep the Sabbaths of the Lord and follow His instructions in your daily lives.
As I was reading the beginning of the article, the first thought that went through my mind was HWAs "prophecy" about the weather soon to cause a famine. And that he did, in fact, say alright, so I have stuck my neck out, but you see if what I said won't happen, blah blah blah. Then the author mentioned the very same example. I listened to HWA say it on one of his radio broadcasts about 2 years ago. The thought occurred to me that current cog members are either unaware of this or have chosen to ignore it and wrap it up in "conditional" language to assuage their cognitive dissonance. I see Anon @8:13 took such an approach. Heartbreaking.
ReplyDeleteThe folks who think he was a prophet and/or apostle will not accept the Biblical ground rules for one who makes such claims. One wrong guess...forever disqualified, not to mention that the New Testament gift of prophecy is vastly different now. Every born again believer, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, has been given all the gifts of the Spirit. But prophecy in our time is not about foretelling future events. All we need to know about the future has already been revealed by God through the genuine prophets thousands of years ago. Prophecy active in the Body of Christ in our time is about exhorting others to rest in Christ and edify the Body.
As to apostles, they had to be chosen and instructed by the Lord Jesus Himself. Anyone claiming to be a modern day apostle is speaking contrary to the Word of God and merely seeking praise for themselves and speaking out of the deception of their own hearts (Thiel, Pack and Flurry, especially). If the current crop of cog leaders is not the literal embodiment of the definitions given in Scripture of false apostles/prophets, I don't know what is. But some will simply never accept the obvious evidence right under their noses. They will go to their grave firmly convinced HWA or their own dear leader is a genuine prophet/apostle. To them, the sky is green and no amount of evidence shown them will ever get them to see it's actually blue. A tragedy that will cost them everything. But at least they will finally be with their idol forever. They should have read their bibles far, far more than they have, because all this is plainly explained. They will all be without excuse, but it's never too late to repent and let God do what only He can do. I pray for such miracles for these folks every single day.
Scout
ReplyDeleteYour legalism that HWA never claimed to be a Prophet, end time Elijah, end time Apostle etc, would not stand up in court. This "loop hole" that a church leader never claimed some exalted bible title is used by many denominational church leaders.
It does not stand up in a court of law because once the leader is made aware of this belief in his group, AND HE FAILS to renounce the claim, he has effectively accepted the title.
It's like someone starting to paint your house without your approval. If you do nothing to stop what they are doing, your silence is regarded as approval in the eyes of the law. You are now legally bound to pay them for their service.
Armstrong regularly claimed to be an Apostle, and the end time Elijah. Other titles that were floated around and never disowned by the Armstrongs and promoted by many, including Gerald Waterhouse, were "The two witnesses" , and "Zerubabel",
ReplyDeleteTechnically it was Stanley Radar who first convinced Herbert Armstrong to promote himself from a evangelist to a Apostle.
DeleteThis is a continuation of my previous statement at 8:48. First, the idea of a prophet has two distinct meanings. It can mean someone who accurately foretells the future. It can also mean someone who speaks with inspiration. The former includes the latter but the reverse is not true. Here I am writing about a prophet who foretells the future.
ReplyDeleteA distinction must be made between a prophet and an interpreter of prophecies:
1. If someone who claims to be a prophet predicts that a mega-hurricane is going to strike the East Coast of the USA this season and kill hundreds of thousands of people and it comes true, this person is a prophet. (Although we might need to consider the possibility of a false positive where the prediction was coincidental. There is a chance greater than zero that this could happen in any hurricane season.)
2. If someone claims to understand the Bible, when other people do not, and interprets the prophecies of the Bible written by actual prophets, this person is not a prophet but an interpreter. His forte is not prediction but exegesis.
I think HWA fell into the second category. He was an interpreter and not a prophet. I do not recall any formal statement that HWA held the office of prophet. I think there were plenty of people in the Pews who did not make the distinction between prophet and interpreter who did consider HWA a prophet but this was at most informal. Some thought he was The Elijah. The Millerites had other Elijahs in their history.
The OT prophets have a fulfilled status. Jesus said he fulfilled both the Law and the Prophets. Prophets in the NT have a different status than OT prophets. Agabus was recognized as a prophet but nothing that he might have written is included in the canon. John of Patmos delivered a long work of Apocalyptic Literature, known as the Book of Revelation, but about half the early church leaders did not consider it to be scripture. It’s inclusion in the canon by Athanasius apparently was as much political as anything else. Paul stated, “If any man think himself to be a prophet...”, which makes it sound like one can be a prophet by self-proclamation but from context we know Paul was being sarcastic about some errant and self-vaunted church member.
Go figure.
Scout
Visit Armstrong dares you..
ReplyDeleteHERBERT W. ARMSTRONG SAYS HE IS A PROPHET
and more...
Is there a significant difference between a false "prophet" and a false "predicter", or is this just some mechanism to absolve HWA and Co for decades of fearmongering?
ReplyDeleteNo. But it absolves me from staying too long....... Simply because HWA did not intentionally lie..... It was all logical and transparant at the time....... Except for the poor losers lying here..... with hindsight... Nck
DeleteCo-Worker Letter, December 1947
Delete"YOU, dear Co-Worker, are not going to be permitted to enjoy your home, your freedom, your present privileges and pursuits, many more years. Just a few more years - perhaps six or seven - perhaps twelve or fifteen - and a re-united Fascist-Nazi Europe will STRIKE - America's great cities will be blown out of existence in one night without warning..."
So you may read that and think "not a prophet, just a predicter"...
But then come the strings:
"I tell you, ON THE AUTHORITY OF JESUS CHRIST, IT IS COMING! Many of you NOW, are in financial condition to DO A LOT MORE than you are doing for GOD'S CAUSE - to help me get out this Message over the air and in print..."
So again, I ask, does it matter if he was a prophet or predicter?
Wow some people are really delusional. Only a moron would come up with some kind of logic that only a true prophet can be a false prophet.. lmao where in the bible does anything remotely say that? I'm gonna go out on a limb and conjecture these fools know in their heart of hearts theyre spinning heresy to defend a heretic, but they need to stay in a cult because it's a perfect cover for clandestine societal cast aways, like pedophiles and other sexual deviants. Anyone who compares HWA molesting and raping his daughter to the weakness of David, is clearly a moron and pedophile themself as well. David was attracted to a milf across the street, not a child, his own even, you imbeciles
ReplyDeleteI see that somebody has played the false flag card! Claim that someone is Catholic in Armstrongism, and that's supposed to make everyone rise up in Hisloppian indignation and equate that person to the Beast, the whore of Babylon, and the devil himself! If we were living in Salem, and Armstrongites were pilgrims, they'd want to be burning Bartlett and No2HWA at the stake, or perhaps stoning them first.
ReplyDeleteMy question for such people would be, Catholics? You mean those who collected and canonized the New Testament documents so that we'd have them as part of the Bible today? You mean the believers from the gentile churches raised up by Paul who were governed by James's edict as he spoke for the first Jerusalem Council? The early bishops who were part of the real chain of the laying on of hands, the chain which history traces back to those selected or ordained by the original apostles, some of whose names actually appear in the books of the New Testament? Or, do you mean the Sunday-keeping followers of Jesus Christ who fervently believed that they were keeping the weekly memorial of Jesus' resurrection, and actually confirmed their beliefs through their martyrdoms as they were tortured and murdered in the persecutions inflicted by savage Roman emperors right along side the sabbath-keeping Jewish Christians during the first centuries of the Christian Era?
It amazes me today that people are so naive, shallow, and lazy that they continue to believe HWA's narrative based on the fairy tales of Hislop, and ridiculous theories regarding Simon Magus and Nimrod instead of actually reading Irenaeus's "Against Heresies", and period literature regarding Peter and Paul confronting Simon Magus, and Simon's death by fall from self-levitation gone bad. They have not read Ralph Woodrow"s second book, repudiating and disproving his own first book as well as the earlier work of Alexander Hislop, on which his first book was based. It's just appalling the damage HWA leveled upon those he considered to be his adversaries, or competitors, such as COG7 and the RCC. He handled such groups with the same ad hominem attacks and shoddy research as was woven throughout his theology. Proof-texting, collecting all the "pro" evidence which supported his various positions, while throwing out all the very valid "con" evidence which cast doubt upon or outright disproved his teachings. If anyone countered or confronted HWA with real evidence, they had to deal with HWA's explosive temper, a temper which ensured the spiritual unity around his beliefs, doctrines, policies, and theories. Unity based on such violent anger is not one of the fruits of the Spirit. He was cagey, often couching his ego with fake humility, using phrases like "the one whom you have called God's Apostle", as if it were a title conferred upon him by his followers, and not his apologist Herman Hoeh, who always fed the man's insatiable ego.
Yes, I guess it's time to break out Lou Reed's first attempt at a hit record, an attempt to fire up another new dance craze! Come on, everybody, do "The Ostrich"!
First, let me say that I am a Trinitarian Christian and I do not support HWA and I am not a member of any of the denominations in Splinterland. I just believe that we need to know what we are talking about. The term prophet has a precise meaing in scripture and cannot be bandied about as if it were semantic dribble. I am not defending HWA. Did HWA ever formally assert that he was a Prophet? Maybe he did. I would like to see the evidence. It may be lurking in some remote corner of Armstrongist literature. And I do not mean the use of the term "forecast" or even a colloquial use of the verb "to prophesy" or any other term that has only implications. I mean an organizationally recognized prophet.
ReplyDeleteFurther, let me respond to 8:39 because this comment is a classic of poor rebuttal. This person uses terms such as delusional, moron, fools, heresy, pedophiles, deviants and actually accuses me of being a pedophile because I believe we should be precise in our statements. All the while never making an argument of any substance. The term asinine does not do this kind of comment justice. Something having to do with horses hiney might work. Fellas and gals, this is not the kind of comment you want to write. It is an indicator of low educational values.
Scout
Right, 8:39! I'm wracking my brain, but is there any example in the Bible of a true prophet falling away and becoming a false prophet?
ReplyDeleteDeuteronomy seems to infer that false prophets are simply people who speak presumptuously, not under direction from, or inspiration from members of the deity. The passage provides instructions as to how one might recognize a false prophet. I'm thinking that the words chiefly describe the bogi, from non-Yahweh-based religions, i.e., the pagans. There were contests with bogus ones described in several places in the Bible, like the competition between Pharaoh's entourage and Moses and Aaron. And, the one many years later, to see whose God (or "god") would ignite the water soaked wood around the offering. God actually toyed with some of these folks, like causing Baalam's donkey to speak with him.
Samson fell. Saul fell. Moses got pissed at several points, and God punished him. David experienced a moral failure and got punished. Didn't Gideon, after all his good, actually end up leading the people back to idolatry? I just can't recall any of the prophets falling and becoming false ones, or being wrong. Apparently they were very unique and special. That would seem to make the leaders of Armstrongism who constantly failed while inflicting their manipulative predictions never "real". You recognize in hindsight who was of God, and who was presumptuous. Even exaggerating or embellishment is a lying witness. God doesn't want people lying to get His work done. That is such a bad example that it would automatically bring a curse on such a person's ministry, and curses are not always financial. You can be rich and increased with goods, and your work ends up coming to nothing! Sound familiar?
8.59, I doubt that any one person convinced HWA to pronounce himself an Apostle unless the thought had been building in his mind for a while, and he considered it safe to do so at the point in time. Julius Caesar probably went through through a similar process when trying to make himself emperor.
ReplyDeleteIt was HWA who convinced HWA to make himself an Apostle.
"...the one whom God has placed in the office of APOSTLE AND GENERAL PASTOR Herbert W. Armstrong..." -- Good News, Sept 1957, p. 11.
ReplyDeleteMost of Herb's followers don't know what he actually said. It was burried. His devoted followers won't check it out thoroughly, if at all. Their minds are made up.
ReplyDeleteIt's "always" like that. Truth is burried by its enemies. MANY world leaders have said that the world is run by "men in black suits" yet if you tell people that they think you are nuts. They mock and won't check it out properly. Their minds are made up.
Beliefs are stubborn things. Facts rarely get in their way.
Using your standard I suppose Paul (and maybe all of the Apostles) was a false prophet. He fully expected Jesus to return in his lifetime.
ReplyDeleteActually, it is the standard set by the unknown author of the book of Deuteronomy. So, by the Bible standard, Paul was a false prophet.
There were three arithmetic ways to come to 1972/1975. (if I recall them correctly)
ReplyDelete1. Two 19-year time cycles from 1934 when HWA started preaching. Turned out to be irrelevant.
2. A 6000 year count from a presumed creation date of 1026 BC. Obviously wrong.
3. A 2520 year count for the Times of the Gentiles. Actually it came to 2015 but HWA decided to subtract 40 for Nebuchadnezzar's madness. That struck me as defective at the time, and now obviously wrong.
Nevertheless when it came down to it it was only considered a theory.
You have no basis for arguing with my first-hand experience.
You find bits of data in hindsight and think you can be conclusive.
Why 40, 1:13? Nebuchadnezzar's supposed insanity lasted seven years.
DeleteTo me the issue is not whether HWA fit some textbook defnition of a prophet but whether in practice he made a false prophecy. Also important is whether he claimed to predict the future in the name of the Lord, which he did. Finally, he then denied having done so.
ReplyDeleteSo he uttered a false prophecy, which in practice makes him a false prophet. He did it in the name/authority of the Lord (while claiming to be the greatest apostle in 2000 years) which makes him a false prophet of YHVH. So he misrepresented himself and YHVH. Then he denied it all, which makes him a liar. By the bible standard he deserved the dealth penalty.
RSK: "Why 40, 1:13? Nebuchadnezzar's supposed insanity lasted seven years."
ReplyDeleteQuite. Reasons for questioning.
Plus why should that time be subtracted from the Times of the Gentiles? That was not a period when the gentile Nebuchadnezzar was exactly ruling the world.
Unless I'm not remembering right. Did the math come to 1982? Maybe.
And of course I meant 4026 BC.
But more recent work by Dr.Hoeh brought the 6000 years to ~2027-28.
Adam and Eve were created aged about 25. The 6000 years probably started from the Fall and banishment, not their creation.
The first year begins-Gen 1:14-at the time of the FOT-Ex 23:16? Then next spring occurred the Fall on the 14th of Abib?
ReplyDeleteRSK wrote, "So again, I ask, does it matter if he was a prophet or predicter?"
ReplyDeleteYou're really struggling with this. Let me 'splain. I made a distinction, if you are referring to my comment, between a prophet and an interpreter. Both may involve predictions. A false prophet is someone who makes a bogus prediction and it doesn't come true. A mistaken interpreter interprets, say, a passage from Isaiah and says it means the Assyrians are going to attack the USA. But it doesn't happen. He has made a mistaken interpretation. Both the false prophet and the mistaken interpreter can be very similar in motivation. Maybe they are both trying to manipulate people. But the interpreter can also just be mistaken.
I am not even considering the moral content of these two types. I am just saying there is a distinction. The distinction comes into play when we apply those verses in Deuteronomy that speak of a false prophet. The moral, spiritual content can apply to both the false prophet and the errant interpreter even though the letter applies to only a false prophet. I'm just saying that these are two different categories. Both can be equally as bad. At the time that the laws in Deuteronomy were given, there were no interpreters because all the prophets and their prophecies were yet future. Nothing to interpret. Technically speaking, HWA is not a false prophet. He is, if there are immoral intents, a false interpreter. The moral issue has to be determined by examininig other evidences. See, like I said, very legalistic.
Scout
"You're really struggling with this. Let me 'splain. I made a distinction, if you are referring to my comment, between a prophet and an interpreter."
DeleteI'm not referring directly to your premise. I refer to the common post-HWA rationale of "he never claimed to be a prophet". I am suggesting that the difference (if there really is any) may be simply irrelevant.
Whether HWA formally assumed the title of prophet is irrelevant, considering the fact that from the beginning of his writings he used titles and phrases in his earliest Plain Truth articles, such as "What is Going to Happen!" (June-July 1934) or "What is Prophesied for 1935!" (March 1935).
ReplyDeleteThis pattern of "prophesying" continued through the decades as demonstrated by the title of the booklet 1975 in Prophesy.
To argue that because he didn't formally assume the title of prophet he should get a pass, or somehow doesn't meet the definition of a false prophet is simply splitting hairs and comes down to semantics. He spoke presumptuously, and God didn't back him up. And he didn't just do it once and think better of it. It became a life long pattern that can be traced through his writings and speeches.
Concerned Sister
Hey all the fakeity fake names remind yourselves, or more likely self, how many decades has Herbert been dead ?
ReplyDeleteIt's like Telsa employee's having a blog bad mouthing Henry Ford......
Herbert is dead but is still ruling the splinters from the grave. Consider the influence of Ellen G. White, John Calvin, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell etc, on their present day denominations.
ReplyDeleteIf we use HWA's method of rationalization, if a gay person doesn't call themselves gay, then it should be perfectly clear and totally logical that they are not homosexual, no matter how many times they perform homosexual acts. It follows that they are not guilty of any sin, and won't incur any penalties!
ReplyDeleteScout, if you're just a good ol' Christian trinitarian on an anti armstrong blog, defending Armstrong's phoney fear mongering false prophettry, you're a liar. You sound like youre covering. Go ask "your" trinitarian pastor if Armstrong was a just a poor innocent predictor with some bad forecasts. except you're not really a real Christian, you're a HWA sympathizer jesuit. Do you pray to a Flurry poster?
ReplyDeleteScout, read June 1934 plain truth.
ReplyDeletehttps://cogsf.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/plain_truth_1934_05_jun-jul.pdf
From The very beginning, spewing false prophecy. What if billy graham wrote a distributed paper that said the tribulation and second coming of Christ would begin in 1996, do you think the Southern Baptists would have just said "aww nice try billy, you got that one wrong, but its totally ok, youre totally not a false prophet." Total bs. Anyone who speaks of the future and proclaims authority of God attatched to it, and that thing doesnt happen, that's called false prophecy no matter how you want to look at it. Even without the date predictions, claiming that his unique doctrine was revealed by God, for the first time in 1900 years,is a false prophet trademark. Video proof of false prophecy claimed in Gods name:
https://herbertwarmstrong.com/video-commentary/ Just another of so many. Also scout, maybe you don't think he was a false prophet.. so what was he? and was he a pedophile? is there ever a good reason to molest children?
"Catholics? You mean those who collected and canonized the New Testament documents so that we'd have them as part of the Bible today?"
ReplyDeleteA commonly spouted falsehood. The RCC did not collect and canonize the NT documents. They were already accepted as scripture by The Church. The RCC simply tried to take credit for it.
"You mean the believers from the gentile churches raised up by Paul who were governed by James's edict as he spoke for the first Jerusalem Council?"
ReplyDeleteThe gentile believers kept the Sabbath and Holy Days, as well as the food laws, etc....it's all in the bible.
"Or, do you mean the Sunday-keeping followers of Jesus Christ ..."
ReplyDeleteIt's not possible to be a Sunday keeper and follow Jesus Christ. It's one or the other.
The Sunday keepers were the ones that left the Church, keeping Easter instead of Passover (Jesus taught His followers to observe the Passover, remember?). Some maybe knew what they were doing, but I suspect most simply followed the crowd. Those with God's spirit stuck to the faith once delivered, keeping the Sabbaths of the Lord.
It's sad that they died for their false faith, but that happens all the time. Just look at the Muslims that blow themselves up for their (false) faith.
Concerned Sister wrote, "To argue that because he didn't formally assume the title of prophet he should get a pass"
ReplyDeleteI am not arguing that HWA should "get a pass". That is nowhere in anything I have written. I am saying that there is a category error in how we have designated HWA's engagement with prophecy. Isaiah generated prophecy de novo. HWA only interprets, mostly inaccurately, what Isaiah and other prophets generated. It is a simple idea and does not bear any kind of implication that HWA was not somehow at fault.
Let me create an example of what I am saying. You have two thieves. One runs a Ponzi scheme and the other one is a house burglar. There is a moral profile that pertains to both of them that would best be termed as "criminal". But they are different crimes. There is a category difference that we should recognize. To characterize the house burglar as a "white collar criminal" for instance would be wrong.
Dwight Bulb, who apparently does not shine very brightly, suggests that I am defending HWA and his false "prophettry" (sic) and makes other gratuitous accusations. Apparently, his ability to read logical discourse is impaired.
What this demonstrates is that there are are anti-HWA people who are just as irrational as HWA supporters. This was something that I really had not considered before but now it stands out in sharp relief.
Scout
4:23 wrote, "Also scout, maybe you don't think he was a false prophet.. so what was he?"
ReplyDeleteWell, err, that is what everything I wrote explains. Maybe you could go back and read it - likely for the first time.
Scout
...a leader with a vehement countenance.....shall stand up (when he's sober)....and shall corrupt and deceive to an extraordinary degree, and prosper.....and think he's the "apostle".....
ReplyDeleteTed at age 27 thought he knew what God was doing, writing that his father was in the office of apostle (anon Aug 5, 11:28 AM).....
HWA was a false prophet, a false apostle, a (w)retch.
For me HWA was a false prophet pure and simple (see for example Deut 18:22; Jer 23:32; and Ezek 14:9) as I’ve said on this site over the years. By the simple fact he made specific predictions about the future (eg in “5 years” or in “10 years” etc) and worse used God and Jesus Christ to support his predictions, the majority of which failed to eventuate proved to me that he was a false prophet. I don’t care he didn’t claim to be a prophet anymore than a liar claims to be a liar or a thief claims to be a thief or an adulterer claims to be an adulterer or a murderer claims to be a murderer—you shall know them by their fruits as Christ said.
ReplyDelete6:44, 6:46, 6:53: I ass-you-me that these sequential comments are from the same individual, as this pattern fits the profile of one of our occasional posters.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I want to thank you for reacquainting all of us with the official (although simplistic) WCG explanations for the problematic facts which I had presented earlier. However, you really should broaden your reading horizons and include literature and historic materials from outside the Armstrong organizations, the primary sources in their original contexts, unmolested by Armstrongism. Factual materials will put you on the path to truth.
Yeah, I do not accept this distinction you are making, Scout. When someone says, as HWA did, that by the authority of Christ such and such will happen, that is prophesying.
ReplyDeleteWhen someone interprets something that is one thing, such as the harlot being a false religion/church. But, when dates are given that is not interpretation and when Franz Josef Strauss is said to be the Beast that is more than interpretation or prediction. that is prophesying something new.
Still, Deut. 18:20-22 indicates it is the lack of the prophecy (that which is claimed will occur by one claiming the authority of God) being fulfilled that determines the false prophet. I'm very comfortable calling hwa a false prophet as he has done that.
6:53 said: “It's not possible to be a Sunday keeper and follow Jesus Christ. It's one or the other…It's sad that they died for their false faith, but that happens all the time.”
ReplyDeleteWhere does God say we are saved by knowing 100% error free truth? In this world it’s impossible not to grow up and live life until your death believing something that is untrue. Further we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ not saved by knowing the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 100% error free truth. So irrespective what day you observe as the Sabbath I do believe there will be Christ followers in God’s Kingdom who didn’t observe the seventh day Sabbath or the annual holy days or know certain truths that others did in their lives and may have been persecuted or martyred for their simple faith in Christ.
@ Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 5:12:00 PM PDT
ReplyDeleteYou're leaving out John 6:44. The Father calls, and until He does no one can follow Jesus. The Holy Spirit will lead no one into error.
If the Bible is a Catholic book.....
ReplyDeletehttps://carm.org/roman-catholicism/if-the-bible-is-a-catholic-book-then-why-does-the-bible-contradict-what-it-teaches/
5:59,
ReplyDeletePlease think through this. The Spirit calls us to Jesus as Savior. He isn't leading you into error, but you can lead yourself into error. Herbert Armstrong changed the day of pentecost, divorce and remarriage, make-up, the number of services during the fot and holy days, medical procedures, contractors working for you on the sabbath, tithe calculations, ministry not paying tithes, Noah's role in separating the races during the Millenium, etc. and with several of these hwa and/or the splinters went back and forth on their understanding.
COG members have different ideas on voting or how they will vote, whether it's okay to contract with someone to let you eat out on saturday, self-defense, etc.
I can assure you that you are not without error in what you believe to be "the Truth"; but those errors aren't due to the Holy Spirit; they are due to you or to the people you choose to believe.
I know there's sugar in your pantry. We are watching you
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