Growing up in the Dutch Reformed Church, I never heard any authentically and well trained pastor be anything else in their own minds than just that, a pastor. All of the ones who spoke in the Church of my youth were graduates of the Westminster Theological Seminary in Baltimore, MD. It never crossed anyone's mind to see themselves as an "Apostle", "Prophet", "That Prophet", "Elijah to Come", "Messenger of the Covenant", "Joshua the High Priest" or one if not both of the Two Witnesses. Note: Personally, in the Church of God, I have met 23 of them
To do so would have met with howls of disbelief and the IMMEDIATE dismissal of such a man from the pulpit or any consideration in the ministry. They would have been seen for what they actually were...delusional.
No sanely trained man or women in the actual NT Gospel would ever see themselves spoken of in the scripture. Their career would be short, and I am sure medical and psychological counseling would be both demanded and provided if they ever hoped to re-enter the ministry of my mainstream Christian denomination.
Only when I came into the Worldwide Church of God did that change, and an emphasis was put on a scripture that was not generally paid much attention to in the Church of my youth. At least not all of it and they had theological and historical reasons not to do so.
Ephesians 4:11-13- And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work.However, in WCG and now magnified in the splits, splinters and slivers, which with the Restored Church of God under Dave Pack and the Continuing Church of God under Dr Robert Thiel, which are, slivers, the concept has gone bat shit crazy in application. Gerald Flurry and Ron Weinland along with "a few other leading loons" also fit the type. It seems WCG drew such personalities that only erupted onto the scene when the time and circumstances were just right for them.
What started with HWA being the ONE Apostle, it's been all downhill from there with men like Dave Pack seeing themselves as spoken of in the scriptures, always the OT ones. If you think someone like Dave Pack won't come to recognize himself as something just short of the Messiah, stay tuned. Delusional thinking creeps upward as each previous title becomes personally unsatisfying to the one wrapped in their own delusions.
The first delusion with religious content that I spotted in WCG for sure was in First Year Bible Class. Rod Meredith said...
"There is God the Father, Jesus Christ, Herbert W Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, MYSELF....and a few other leading evangelists..."
Whoa thinks I! I NEVER heard such talk or placing oneself in such a lofty pecking order. It was my first hint of times and title taking to come... It made me uncomfortable if not somewhat amazed to hear that come out of man's mouth.
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What Are Delusions of Grandeur?
Delusion of grandeur is a false belief in one’s power or importance. It may be a symptom of a mental health disorder and can cause confusion between what is real and what is not.
A delusion is a false belief held by a person. It contradicts reality or what is commonly considered true. The strength of a delusion is based on how much the person believes it.
Specifically, a delusion of grandeur is a person’s belief that they are someone other than who they are, such as a supernatural figure or a celebrity. A delusion of grandeur may also be a belief that they have special abilities, possessions, or powers.
Delusions are generally the result of a mental health disorder. However, not all people with delusions meet the full diagnostic criteria for any mental health disorder.
Many types of mental health disorders classified as psychotic disorders can lead to delusions. These include:
Psychotic disorders can change a person’s sense of reality. They may be unable to tell what is real and what is not.
Any delusion has four main characteristics:
- The person having the belief believes it to be true, even when the existing norm and other people know it to be untrue.
- The person having the delusion will not listen to any other viewpoints about the belief and will not consider change when evidence challenges the delusion.
- The content of the delusion is impossible or implausible.
- The delusion impacts the person’s daily life.
Delusions of grandeur can take many forms, such as beliefs of:
Having a special ability, object, or talent
The person with the delusion may believe that they have a secret talent, object, or ability that no one else has or even knows about. For example, they may believe they possess a secret record from Elvis Presley that no one else knows about.
Being a famous person
A person with a delusion of grandeur may actually believe that they are a famous person and that the real famous person is an imposter or decoy.
Having a secret connection
This delusion involves believing in a special and sometimes secret connection or relationship with someone or something important. For example, a person with this delusion of grandeur may believe they are a spy or that they alone are responsible for relaying messages to the president or other world leaders.
Religious grandeur
A person with a religious-themed delusion of grandeur may believe that they are a religious leader.
(Personal Note: Made even more delusional and grandiose by seeing themselves spoken of in the scriptures and the one true so and so)
Delusions of grandeur can be difficult to identify because the person having them believes the delusion to be true. Also, delusions can be hard to distinguish from what is called an “overvalued idea,” or a belief a person has that isn’t totally accurate, but isn’t exactly a delusion, either.
The key marker of delusions of grandeur is that they are not tied to a person’s experience. So, a person who regularly gambles and believes he is close to winning, even if he’s not, isn’t necessarily delusional. This is because the belief is tied to the action.
A delusion, on the other hand, is usually not related to anything happening in life at the moment. A delusion of grandeur would be more like a belief you can fly or that you are secretly the star of a reality TV show.
A delusion of grandeur is easier to spot if it occurs with other mental health symptoms. Delusions of grandeur are more common with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. If a person has a history of bipolar disorder and has had delusional thoughts in the past, delusions are more likely to happen again.
In some cases, delusions can also be brought on or intensified by the use of substances such as alcohol or marijuana.
Also keep watch for the effects the belief has on the person’s life. If the false belief is so great that it has changed how the person lives life or performs daily activities, it could be a delusion.
I AM SPARTACUS!!!!
ReplyDeleteI am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I amI am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I amI am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I amI am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am ,I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am, I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am , I am I
a liar.
DeleteI wonder how this works. What is a typical day in the life of one of the delusional ones like? Do you get up in the morning, thinking, "Ah! Another day of being an Apostle! Isn't this awesome?"
ReplyDeleteDoes such a person hold back in any way or express modesty? Does Bob Thiel tell someone who works in his local supermarket that he's a prophet? When someone cuts him off in traffic, and then flips him off, does he say to himself, "Boy! If that person only knew that he just cut off a prophet!". How does his imaginary status play out with his wife? Or, is she in on it, deluded into thinking that she is "Mrs. Prophet?"
It must be so difficult to work with this on so many levels! If something bad happens to someone in Bob's circle, does he think "Yeah, buddy! Shoulda listened to me about football!"
As nearly as I can tell, a normal person would actually rather be a garbage man than a prophet! Why does a little bit of Armstrongism distort how participants regard themselves, and mute the normal human function of embarrassment?
What started with HWA being the ONE Apostle, it's been all downhill from there with men like Dave Pack seeing themselves as spoken of in the scriptures, always the OT ones.
ReplyDeleteWell, Dennis, you must admit that it would be hard for any of these deluded men to claim the title of "end-time Diotrephes."
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhat started with HWA being the ONE Apostle, it's been all downhill from there with men like Dave Pack seeing themselves as spoken of in the scriptures, always the OT ones.
Well, Dennis, you must admit that it would be hard for any of these deluded men to claim the title of "end-time Diotrephes."
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More accurate though it might be :)
Tonto said...
ReplyDeleteI AM SPARTACUS!!!!
I am , I am , I am
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"Oh Zuul...you nut" lol (Gate Keeper of Goser in Ghostbusters as I recall!)
“End time Diotrephes” —- now that is funny!!
ReplyDeleteI recall RCM claiming his position under the Armstrongs made HIM the the fifth most powerful or greatest in authority in the entire universe!
Claiming all these exalted titles does have its benefits.
ReplyDelete2Thessalonians 2:4 "..so he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God."
The sad reality is that many followers fall for the con, believing these false claims, giving their holders undue influence. Authority figures such as parents, school teachers, work bosses etc, do this in degrees, all the time. A common ploy is to critically peck on their victims or use narcissistic devaluation. It's a game of psychological warfare. Which is why mocking and belittling these self exalting authorities in one's mind in order to maintain proper perspective is appropriate.
Does Bob Thiel tell someone who works in his local supermarket that he's a prophet?
ReplyDeleteA prophet does not need to "tell" anyone that she or he is a prophet. A prophet prophesies, and people are convinced by the accuracy of his or her message.
There is no Biblical example of a prophet who whines or equivocates. Nor of any prophet who, instead of trusting God, seeks to deliver his enemies into the hands of the world's legal systems.
As to Dennis's article, I would argue that true Biblical prophets aren't puffed up like modern prophets. Biblical prophets know that it's God's message that is special, not the deliverer of the message. A Biblical prophet's message is "Tremble at these words from God" and "Thus saith the Lord, not me." The true prophet says, "These are God's words, listen to them." That's very unlike Bob, who is constantly saying, "I prophesied that!" even when the so-called prophecy was murkier than Bob will admit.