I was willing
Lonnie Hendrix
Many of the regular readers of this blog will recall that CGI’s Jeff Reed invited some of the folks who regularly appear on this blog to appear on the program which he hosts with Mike James, Prove All Things. In fact, Jeff and Mike devoted an entire episode of that program to Banned by HWA back in August (without any guests from the site).
In response, despite a great deal of trepidation about participating in their forum, I publicly and privately accepted Jeff’s invitation. I reasoned that the courage exhibited by Jeff via wading into our forum demanded that I reciprocate. Moreover, both Mike and Jeff assured me that the forum would be friendly and nonconfrontational. Indeed, there was even some discussion about doing more than one appearance, but I suggested that we wait and see whether or not we were pleased with the initial experience before committing ourselves to do more.
Since that invitation and reply, however, there has not been any effort to follow through on the proposal. To be completely transparent, I did reach out to Jeff about a month ago and inquired whether or not they were still planning on doing the episode and was assured that they were. Subsequently, there hasn’t been any communication from either side about the proposal.
In the meantime, NO2HWA published a post by me that was critical of Canadian CGI Pastor Adrian Davis’ messaging about public health measures related to Covid-19. Interestingly, none of the CGI leadership team has chosen to respond to the post. Indeed, as far as I know, nothing was done to address Pastor Davis’ open defiance of CGI leadership on the matter or to respond to his insistence that they repent of expressing support for public health measures. So, it appears that the courage which was previously demonstrated has evaporated – that it was only a “flash in the pan.”
Whatever the reason for the inactivity and silence, I wanted to make clear to our readers that I did not back out of my commitment to appear on CGI’s forum. The decision not to move forward with the project is/was entirely their own. I continue to be open to challenges to the views expressed here and am willing to defend those which have been expressed by me in various posts appearing here and on my own blog. Moreover, I would also like to take this opportunity to invite Vance Stinson, Jeff Reed, and Mike James to comment here whenever they wish to explain their perspective or defend themselves against any criticism of their doctrines which may appear here in the future.
Lonnie, sorry to hear things did not work out for you with them. I was on their show twice and had to drop from a third due to an employment scheduling conflict. I like Mike and Jeff, personally. We would talk long before they hit record and one time spoke for almost an hour after they hit "stop." They struck me as fair and rational guys. Mike even took me out to lunch last year when he was in my area for the FOT here in Ohio. Hopefully they will get back to you on this. I'd be curious to hear what you talk about.
ReplyDeleteMarc
Thanks, Marc.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I disagree with them on many issues, I regard Jeff, Mike, and Vance as brothers in Christ. Personally, I have no need or desire to do anything more than what I have been doing here and on my own blog. I will be just fine if I never appear on their program. Best wishes to you and keep holding David Pack's feet to the fire - that's right where they need to be!
Didn't Jesus say (in effect) that talk is cheap - and we're supposed to "know" people by the works they do? Such as keeping their word?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be surprised if they've been busy with Feast of Tabernacles and all its planning/logistics/sermons.
ReplyDeleteThere really isn't any possibility of ecumenism with or amongst Armstrongites, although it is always good to at least test the waters just in case there is that very rare opportunity for the high road. There can be an occasional issue or topic for which there appear to be opportunities for unity, but these generally disintegrate somewhat quickly.
ReplyDeleteWell well, why NOT go on the show?? Something to hide??
ReplyDelete"Interestingly, none of the CGI leadership team has chosen to respond to the post."
ReplyDeleteAnswer not a fool according to his folly.....
Anonymous 11:31,
ReplyDeleteDid you not read the post? Maybe CGI has something to hide?
Silence on their part gives rise to speculation.
ReplyDeleteThe possibilities for them with Marc are different from the possibilities with Lonnie. Showing themselves as being friendly and possibly an alternative for the people leaving the RCG but retaining the basic doctrines is perhaps low key recruitment? It has been perfectly obvious that Lonnie has moved beyond returning to their fold. Plus, Lonnie has taken on people who are very powerful in CGI. Both Marc and Lonnie are verbally adept, and affable, certainly neither one of them fitting the bitter strawman mold created by HWA's marketing department!
Jeff had established a pattern of friendship here which was becoming reminiscent of Ian Boyne, who was their fellow long term member of CGI. Abruptly, Jeff's participation has ceased, but it's very possible that it is due to F/T activities and its aftermath, as someone else has pointed out. However, Ian realized prior to his sudden demise that we here are not just the bunch of senseless or arbitrary enemies that Bob Thiel, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Jon Brisby, and Ron Weinland see us as being. In fact, Ian commented on several occasions that in his attempt to reform Armstrongism, he considered us to be a valuable resource.
Hopefully, this will continue to process itself in a positive way, but as I commented above, there usually is not a heck of a lot of ecumenism within Armstrongism. We just do not see splinters reuniting, or ex members returning to the fold. The animosity still runs too deep. There is nothing on the horizon similar to the reunification and subsequent growth of COG-7.
I think the Prove All Things broadcast is a good idea and done in a professional way. I don't really view it much as a debate format which it, most likely, would have ended up becoming with Lonnie as a guest. I still view it as very valuable.
ReplyDeleteI remember Ted going into the lions den on the John Ankerberg show years ago. I thought he held his own pretty good. Would like to see more of that with some of the spokesmen within the COG7 ranks.
I watched a piece of it but found it too longwinded and meandering for me. But thats OK, maybe some others will enjoy it.
ReplyDeleteDave's feet should be IN the fire.
ReplyDeleteMike James and Jeff Read are certainly a "breath of fresh air" in context to most COG history.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, Tonto, even though I realized years ago that looking for a "good" church within the Armstrong realm is a futile exercise not unlike comparison-shopping for diarrhea. When you run across some of these rare good guys, it makes you wish you could have met them in a completely different setting. But, we don't get to make such choices, they happen as they happen.
ReplyDeleteIn the absence of any remarks from Jeff or Mike, I think that we must assume that one or both of them decided that having me as a guest on the show was not a good idea. Remember too, both gentlemen were familiar with my posts and history when they made the original offer to appear on their program, and I'm the one who insisted on a civil, nonconfrontational exchange of ideas.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't lost on me that Loonie Lonnie made this post on October 11 - only 4 days after the Hamas brutal attacks on Israel. The world has witnessed atrocities of the beheading of soldiers and little children, rape, and murder according to reports. Israel is calling the attacks "their 9/11". Many are saying this has the potential to escalate into World War III. Friday is supposed to be a day of Global Jihad. All New York City Police are on duty tomorrow in uniform. It seems to me that Loonoe Lonnie's post melts into insignificance compared to what has transpired in the world since last Saturday.
ReplyDeleteRather odd that a blog about Armstrongism has nothing to say about what's happening in the Middle East right now. I seem to remember lots of things said about the Middle East, and Gog and Magog. Maybe these CGI men that Loonie Lonnie mentions are busy watching and monitoring the escalation of the war. I could be wrong, but doesn't CGI have a publication called "Watch"? Maybe they are busy Watching?
I don't know what world Loonie Lonnie lives in, but his timing for this insignificant post is way off - oblivious to the real world around him.
I am no prophet like little Bobby Theil or even Cartoon Bob, but I am troubled by what happened in Israel last Saturday and what's been transpiring in the last 2 years. Here are my concerns and opinions published on my Facebook Page:
WORLD WAR III – Remember in 2016 when Democrats were saying Trump would get us into World War III if elected? It did not happen! Peace through strength works. There were NO new wars under Trump and the historic Abrahamic Middle East peace accords were enacted. Since Biden was installed, we are now in the preliminary stages of a GLOBAL WAR – America will be sucked into it – at a time when America has the weakest leadership in our history; is completely unprepared and asleep just as we were in the days leading up to 9/11; financially bankrupt; and our strategic Petroleum supply which President Trump built up has been depleted for political gain by Biden to keep gas prices in check.
Last Saturday’s Hamas terrorist attack on Israel has changed the world. We have seen the depravity and pure evil the terrorists have inflicted upon innocent Israeli citizens. Beheading of babies and soldiers, rape, and murder. New Axis powers are developing Ukraine to support Israel; Hezbollah has now joined in with rocket attacks on Israel from Lebanon and Syria; Iran provides support for the terrorists, and Russia is aligning itself with Iran. The countries of Brazil, Russia, India, and China have created the BRIC economic alliance to rival the United States and this alliance could also morph into a military alliance. China is threatening Taiwan. The Marxists, the Socialists, and the Communists have joined forces with Radical Islamists.
Retired 4-star General Jack Keane said recently if we ever got into a hot war with China, "China would attack our homeland quite massively” Not only that, ”We lost 18 straight simulated war games against China”.
Under Joe Biden, our porous southern Border has allowed 6M - 10M undocumented immigrants in the last 2 years and we do not know who they are or where they came from. Therefore, you can assume the SLEEPER CELLS are already here in the United States. If you don’t think so, then you are either very naïve or you might not remember the 9/11 terrorist sleeper cells.
In my mind (and I hope I am wrong) this is America’s perfect storm! NOW is the time to 1) Watch; 2) Prepare and 3) Pray.
Richard
Richard, prophecy hacks respond to EVERY event in the world with WW3 talk, be it North Koreas saber-rattling, Ukraine,
DeleteAfghanistan, Iraq, or Israel. Everything is always "the first step"! It should come as no surprise that a bunch of ex-Armstrongists approach it cautiously.
some of those chaps, like Bob, have already commented that a conflict like this could pull in Iran to jump in soon, along with eventual devastating results for Damascus, Syria
DeleteI wouldn't be surprised if Lonnie's buddy Bill Watson pulled some levers to put a kabash on the whole thing.
ReplyDeleteNuthin' but luv...
Ok but 1st Bill Watson had to get a fresh black hair colour application. His age would normally have at least a few or more gray hairs, but not zero as we see him on the telly.
DeleteThere are certain things I just can't allow to pass without comment. Politicians all bring their good and their bad. Nobody has a perfect agenda. I do not know that the Hamas attacks would have been prevented by the presence of Mr. Trump as president. Or that Russia would never have attacked Ukraine. I am just thankful that there has not been an insurrection, election officials in fear of their lives, or massive riots under our current administration. And, nobody is designing international viruses as retaliation for tariffs.
ReplyDeleteI hope this brief and non-angry comment is allowed to go through in the interest of balancing out Richard's contribution above.
The very sad and dangerous situation within Israel and Gaza has absolutely nothing to do with this post, but I have absolutely NOT ignored it. On my own blog, I posted these comments on October 9th:
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, many within the Judeo-Christian community of the United States will see the current conflict in the Middle East in starkly simplistic terms, and they will wrongly assume that God is on Israel's side in their contest with Hamas. However, the same human nature which has motivated so many of the wars and conflicts before this one is on prominent display here. We are, of course, thinking of what the Apostle Paul called the works of the flesh (e.g., enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions). Both sides are motivated by things like fear, vengeance, impatience, pride, and lust. In other words, the exact opposite of the traits which are features of the Divine nature (e.g., love, kindness, compassion, empathy, forgiveness, mercy, humility, patience). We humans are preoccupied with assigning blame and picking a side in the conflict to support.
Are we truly interested in God's perspective on this war? I think that a good place to start is the fifty-ninth chapter of the book of Isaiah. We read there: "Their feet run to evil, and they are swift to shed innocent blood; their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their highways. The way of peace they do not know, and there is no justice in their paths; they have made their roads crooked; no one who treads on them knows peace." (Verses 7-8, ESV) There is a principle at play here that James applied to Christ's disciples among the Jews. He wrote: "What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions." (James 4:1-3)
Hence, the solution to this current conflict will NOT be found in American support for Israel, Israeli military action, improving intelligence gathering, building walls, punishing Hamas and Iran, or a host of other measures which will almost certainly be taken in the wake of this mammoth tragedy. The solution will only be found in permanently changing the nature which caused this conflict - the change that Christians believe can only come through the acceptance of Jesus Christ and his work and message. Unfortunately, when I look at the current situation in the Middle East, I don't have any confidence in the ability of the humans involved in this conflict to stop it or permanently resolve the issues which gave rise to it. For me, I look at what is happening, and it becomes crystal clear to me why Jesus Christ instructed his followers to pray "Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
And, the following day, I posted this comment:
The death toll is rapidly approaching 2,000 souls (and a considerable number of women and children are included in that total). May God frustrate the plans of the wicked and bless and protect the innocents!
I continue to pray for God's intervention and that the innocent people who have suffered these horors will be comforted and blessed.
You know, Lonnie, there are probably those who would pray that the God of Israel give Israel victory against Allah's people. I've had Muslim friends tell me that out God is actually the same, just has a sligjtly different name. Islam is consodered to be one of the three Yahweh-based religions.
DeleteIn Torah, Yahweh forbade Israel from launching attacks against the descendants of Ishmael, the descendants of Lot through his daughters, and others spawned by Israelite patriarchs and Canaanite wives or concubines.
Also, Christians fled persecution by going to Egypt, and sought solace amongst the followers of Mohammed who treated them very well. So, historically, Muslims and the Christians and Jews do have key time periods of peaceful alliances and coexistence. It is difficult to imagine that considering the animosities of today, but nonetheless true.
Sorry, I was typing too fast - "horrors"!
ReplyDeleteThese events naturally ignite the passions of all involved. To be clear, Hamas is an evil organization. The things that were done to innocent Jewish people (including women, children, and the elderly) were horrendous, and there is no excuse or justification for what those Hamas fighters did. Hamas is brutal, ruthless, and without compassion or conscience. Indeed, they don't even treat the people whom they control in Gaza well! Their charter eschews diplomacy and negotiations and calls for war against all Jews.
ReplyDeleteThat said, we must NOT lose sight of the fact that the majority of Palestinians and Middle Eastern Arabs are NOT affiliated with or supportive of Hamas (I don't believe there have been any widespread elections within Gaza since the 2006 elections which brought them to power- if I'm wrong, someone correct me). Just as what happened to the Israelis at the musical festival and in the villages surrounding Gaza was wrong, the indiscriminate killing of people who had no part in the atrocities that Hamas perpetrated would also be wrong. One of the hallmarks of Hamas' evil is the fact that they have woven themselves into the civilian Palestinian population to protect themselves - using their own innocent people as shields against attack. In other words, they know that Judeo-Christian people generally place a high value on innocent human life.
I do agree with Richard on one thing - NOW is a time for prayer!
The Hamas-Israel war: any "tie/connection" (for lack of a better word) to Genesis 16:12 referring to Ishmael?: "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him, and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren" KJV
ReplyDeleteMaybe, just maybe, CGI is now "wrestling" with their own tithing and number of feasts doctrines, detecting that something may be askew.
ReplyDelete"Ok but 1st Bill Watson had to get a fresh black hair colour application. His age would normally have at least a few or more gray hairs, but not zero as we see him on the telly."
ReplyDeleteRumor has it that Bill Watson recruited Ronold Reagan's hairdresser.
Back in the day, our captors always counseled us that, "Oh don't worry about the Russians, brethren! This missile crisis is not the big one! It's the Germans and the Pope we need to worry about, and this doesn't even involve them!"
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the ACOGlodyte leaders still poo poo major world events such as the war in Ukraine, the January 6 insurrection, and the Hamas attack on Israel, and focus their members on the Germans. One would hope that habit patterns had been revised following 9-11, but some have been resistant to any further education regardless of how intense the lesson.
Hi 10:21
ReplyDelete“History is littered with wars which everybody knew would never happen” - Enoch Powell
I wouldn’t write-off Germany too quickly. I like these observations by George Bailey:
"So the dream of the Holy Roman Empire has remained. It has bemused every generation of Germans since Charlemagne... Those captains and commanders who had no original conscious desire to travel the road to empire sooner or later discovered themselves moving along the railbed of historic progression that had been laid in the time of Charlemagne...
"Even when institutions are disintegrating and decaying, their leading ideas sometimes live on. And remerge, often in distorted and even horrendous forms. So it was the Berlin-Rome axis came into being; the link was the Church... There was perhaps no basic differences between the attitudes of Pius XII to Hitler and Leo III to Charlemagne. "Heresies," as Sir Thomas Browne wrote,
do not perish with their Authors, but like the river Arethusa, though they lose their currents in one place, they rise up again in another... Opinions do find, after certain Revolutions, men and minds like those that first begat them. To see ourselves again, we need not look for Plato's year: every man is not only himself; there have been many Diogenes, and as many Timons, though but few of that name; men are lived over again, the world is now as it was in Ages past, there was none then, but there hath been someone since that parallels him, and is, as it were, his revived self.
"If this is true then can we be sure that history has written finis to what was perhaps the grandest design ever conceived by man: the Holy Roman Empire?
"It was not by mere chance that the words "of the German Nation came to be added to the title. Germany was the country best fitted to be the home base of the empire. In the very center of the European land mass it formed, then as now, the geographical, economic, and political heart of Europe. Germany was, then as now, a network of roads and waterways knotted together at its intersections by the great commercial clearinghouses at Cologne, Frankfurt am Main, Leipzig, Frankfurt an der Oder, Nuremburg, Augsburg. Inevitably, this central position meant, through all history, pressure from all sides and the corollary of concentric pressure: pivotal influence; both centrifugal and centripetal force. Germany was naturally, and still is, at the center of all east-west and north-south conflicts, between Habsburg and Bourbon, between Spain and the Netherlands, between Catholics and Protestants, between capitalists and columnists. It has always been clear to all concerned that the role of Germany - or the role played in Germany by others - would be decisive. Consequently the governments of major governments nations have always tried to establish and promote their interests (whatever they might be) in Germany. For this reason the country of the Germans has been invaded, divided, subdivided, bought, sold partitioned, and occupied by foreign governments since the dawn of European history. It was because of this situation that the lateral transfer of the Roman Empire to the Germans was bound to be calamitous. The transfer imposed form, gave direction, and imparted thrust to the German natural inclination to believe: it harnessed a griffin to the sacred imperial dream. Within the dream it generated the most mystical of all political concepts: the Reich...
“With the lateral transfer of the Holy Roman Empire to Germany the Germans became the people chosen by God to implement the Christianization of the world, beginning with Europe. "Germany" became synonymous with the Reich, with the Kingdom of God on earth (a development that made the confrontation between Germans and Jews all but inevitable: one chosen people verses another chosen people)..." (Germans: Biography of an Obsession, pp.363 & 360-61).
Unfortunately a situation has come up that has prevented them from following through. Out of respect for privacy I cant say much else, but trust me they would follow through if it were possible.
ReplyDelete