This was on a Sabbatarian Facebook group the other day. Armstrongism has had a long record of mocking Christians and others who figuratively portray Jesus in art.
The following person took all the junk we were ever spoon-fed and wrapped it all up into one statement:
Never ceases to amaze me when I tell and (show Proof), that the depictions (Images) people see on the internet, art, photos, in church buildings, synagogues, temples, etc., drawings, etc. of a Jesus Christ looking like a hippy, wearing a dress, drunkard, a dope-head, uncouth, unshaven, feminine looking, looking like a drag queen (without the makeup), a transgender, etc., people seem to get somewhat hostile, arrogant, judgmental(condemning), They don't seem to realize such images of Christ originates (starting about 300 years), "after" the apostles and started in Rome, and Jesus Christ looked nothing like those images that have depicted Him as what I have listed herein. But people have been sooo ingrained with those images for "soooo long", that to the general public violating the second Commandment means nothing and is a normal way of seeing Christ......They don't care that it is blasphemoussooooo sad.....I tell those who get angry to read Romans chapter 1 and then 1 Corinthains chapter 1:14. I tell them God The Father taught Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ taught the Apostles....They in turn taught the brethren.....But like sooo many before them, they "Tune" all of it "Out"....
He even produced a video (sound only) of him speaking on the subject. If you thought Bouncing Bob Thiel was a poor speaker, wait till you hear this good old boy.
If these Armstrognites took the amount of energy they expended on getting all pissy over some pictures, imagine what would happen if they rechanneled that energy into actually following that Jesus they ridicule yet know so little about.
What is this guy expecting? Jesus to be all butch like Bob Thiel, Rod Meredith, and Dave Pack?
ReplyDeleteIf Jesus was a Jewish guy & could blend in to a crowd easy & had to be identified by a Judas kiss, then as a regular Jewish guy, Jesus may have looked like Jerry Seinfeld or Einstein or Moshe Dayan or Bill Maher
DeleteWouldnt it be a hoot if Jesus actually did sport scruffy long locks? I mean, how many barbers were in Galilee anyway?
ReplyDelete“But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, “The Lord rebuke you!” (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses’ body.)”
ReplyDeleteJude 1:9 NLT
And yet accusing people of blasphemy for having imaginations is ok.
Armstrongism appeals to vanity and really is the leaven of the Pharisees. It’s easier to point fingers and say “You are an idiot for drawing pictures of Jesus Christ” than to realize that by calling someone an idiot or accusing one of Christ’s servants, you are in danger of judgment yourself. The hypocrisy is palpable, but only when you surrender and allow Jesus to correct and wash you.
In the book of Isaiah, we read: "See, my servant will prosper; he will be highly exalted. But many were amazed when they saw him. His face was so disfigured he seemed hardly human, and from his appearance, one would scarcely know he was a man. And he will startle[f] many nations. Kings will stand speechless in his presence. For they will see what they had not been told; they will understand what they had not heard about." (52:13-15)
ReplyDelete"Who has believed our message? To whom has the Lord revealed his powerful arm? My servant grew up in the Lord’s presence like a tender green shoot, like a root in dry ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. He was despised and rejected— a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way. He was despised, and we did not care. Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for his own sins! But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed. All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all. He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. Unjustly condemned, he was led away. No one cared that he died without descendants, that his life was cut short in midstream. But he was struck down for the rebellion of my people. He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave. But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands. When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of his experience, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among the rebels. He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels." (53:1-12, NLT)
Now, that sounds to me like Christ's appearance was NOT important. Notice the focus is on what he did for all of us. I wish the Armstrong Churches of God would focus on the same things that Scripture focuses on! I'm thinking about gagging on that gnat and swallowing a camel!
The Pharisees, too, rejected Jesus because He was not what they expected.
ReplyDeletePeople complain about the way the artistic community portrays Jesus. I believe the films have gotten one thing very right. He might not be as people initially expect, but they are soon mesmerized by His words.
What if some people we all know are resurrected, and Jesus introduces Himself to them, and gets a response like, "No! You can't be! You don't
look at all like Mr. Armstrong said you would be!"
For years, ACOG teaching has been that Jesus had the Roman hairstyle of the day, like the Caesars. But, there was also the Galilean haircut, which was parted in the middle. How frequently do we believe people in that era had an opportunity to get a haircut? Thay didn"t have Supercuts back then to text them when it was time for their next haircut! As it is, according to Supercuts, I'm a month overdue right now!
If long hair were such a damning thing, what's up with the Nazirite Vow?
I wouldnt call Thiel --- "Butch". He is far from that, and a better moniker might be "boyish".
ReplyDeleteShow em a black Jesus and suddenly hair length doesnt matter though.
ReplyDeleteThe group is a 3 ring circle jerk of bashing other people who really do want to follow God. The group, well not so much.
ReplyDeletesome kind of "Ray W. Smith Ministries"
Deletehttps://youtu.be/KqiwQxnU448?feature=shared
do they have basically 3 people?
RSK said...
ReplyDeleteShow em a black Jesus and suddenly hair length doesnt matter though.
That’s exactly why Black Jesus is up there
Jesus wasn't black and Jesus did not have long hair. FACT!
ReplyDelete"Jesus wasn't black and Jesus did not have long hair. FACT!"
ReplyDeleteSays who? Herbert? Meredith? Thiel? Pack? Waterhouse? GTA? Flurry?
I personally need to wait till Mr. Bob Thiel gives me the answer to this dilemma.
ReplyDeleteIf Jesus was close to the average Jew at that time in appearance, he was 5'1" and weighed about 110 pounds. His pigmentation was like that of a Mizrahi Jew: dark-skinned, very curly hair, brown eyes, aquiline nose.
ReplyDeleteHe did not look like Jerry Seinfeld or Einstein or Bill Maher. These are Ashkenazi Jews and they are anywhere from 30 to 70 percent European
As I have written before, based on his "Gentile" apperance, Jesus probably would not have been admitted to Ambassador College.
The only Jesus in the picture that accompanies this article that looks like a First Century Jew is the third guy down from the Northeast corner. That is an actual reconstruction of what a Jew at the time of Jesus would have looked like. I think that he is mistakenly referred to as a Black Jesus. None of the Jesus images in the picture are Black.
For those who ardently want God to have a body in his essence, they must realize that God and Jesus would be people of color. My guess is that will change things quickly for some.
When I typed the word "art" into the search engine, it pulled up this definition: "the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power"
ReplyDeleteThose paintings may not look like the actual Jesus (we don't know), but the various artist's depictions of our Savior obviously employed their imagination and creativity and captured some of his humanity, Divinity, and personality. Take a moment to look at some of the historic depictions of Jesus online or in a museum, and you will find something of his intensity, sorrow, strength, vulnerability, kindness, compassion, and power (unless you're blind). And, finally, any depiction of our Savior which helps humans anywhere around the globe to relate to him has performed a good and worthwhile service (IMHO).
Mentioning Bob is kind of like calling for Betelgeuse. He'll somehow mystically appear, and find your request 6:22, and may even respond anonymously.
ReplyDeleteSo, Bob, while we have your attention, I'm going to ask the question that's on everybody's mind. President Biden is in the Middle East at a very dangerous time. Is anything bad going to happen to him while he's over there?
Thanks in advance for your insights!
"The only Jesus in the picture that accompanies this article that looks like a First Century Jew is the third guy down from the Northeast corner. That is an actual reconstruction of what a Jew at the time of Jesus would have looked like. I think that he is mistakenly referred to as a Black Jesus. None of the Jesus images in the picture are Black."
ReplyDeleteBlack Jesus is right next to the third guy down on the right side. He has long dreadlocks
I imagine Jesus to be more like the guy in the bottom row, second from the left.
ReplyDelete"Mentioning Bob is kind of like calling for Betelgeuse"
ReplyDeleteIs that Betelgeuse or Beetlejuice?
i've had some Jewish friends who had thick, extremely curly ethnic hair. Back when Afros were popular, there was also what was called the "Jewish Natural." These were not Sephardic Jews, either. So apparently, hundreds of years of Ashkenazzing around Europe was not able to tame this genetically dominant hair type.
ReplyDeleteOne lady I knew had hair that was like a light brown, but it was all frizzed out like Roseanne Roseannadana hair.(Jewish actress Gilda Radner portraying a Puerto Rican TV reporter).
Scientists tell us that there is no such thing as "race" because genetically we are all 99.9% the same. Why would the idea of Jesus being black be considered as such a blasphemous insult? Ask your local racist! He'll tell you all about it! I did't want to comment on Ray's accent, because even most Rednecks are not racists!
Yup, the Jewfro!
Delete"Mentioning Bob is kind of like calling for Betelgeuse"
ReplyDeleteMentioning Bob is like calling down Legion.
As opposed to the fine upstanding humble Christian NO2HWA is.
ReplyDeleteThe Muslims have it right. Nobody knows how Prophet Mohammad looks like because nobody was allowed to picture him unlike followers of Jesus Christ. Shame on you Christians who need image of Him to worship Him and make justifications for that. Sheesh.
ReplyDeleteWhen you read the gospels, do you try to picture what certain actions or stories may have looked like? Do you see a woman pushing her way through the crowd to touch Jesus? Or do you blankly read the pages of scripture without connecting it to any images? The Lord God created us with imaginations and gave us lots of imagery to picture. The world around us is evidence of His majesty. Have you ever considered the beauty in nature? Or contemplated the stars in the heavens? When you look at his handiwork, are you worshipping the handiwork or are you witnessing it the power and glory of God? When an artist decides to paint something that speaks to people and brings someone who may not be able to read to the knowledge of the grace of Jesus Christ, how can you speak against the artist and say they’re causing that person to sin?
DeleteWhen you seek to accuse a brother or sister, remember you are disobeying God and demonstrating you have no love. Love doesn’t keep a record of wrongs or assign motivations to people. You should be cautious.
is 8:37 from a condescending ccog person? accusing people of being an accuser?
DeleteNot meant to be a condescending comment…
DeleteI was replying to this comment:
“
The Muslims have it right. Nobody knows how Prophet Mohammad looks like because nobody was allowed to picture him unlike followers of Jesus Christ. Shame on you Christians who need image of Him to worship Him and make justifications for that. Sheesh.“
It is a funny situation though, how COGlodytes get very worked up about "long haired Jesus". You would think the teachings matter more than the appearance of a man for whom no real contemporary descriptions exist, but you cant tell by listening to them. It would be like bickering over whether Moses really had a long beard as he's often portrayed.
ReplyDelete"Black Jesus is right next to the third guy down on the right side. He has long dreadlocks"
ReplyDeleteYup. I see the picture now. I was scanning for a really ebony Jesus. Overlooked.
There is an interesting article titled "The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms". The link is:
https://biologydirect.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6150-5-57#:~:text=Nebel%20et%20al.,~12%25%20in%20Ashkenazi%20Jews
The reseasrch indicates that the Ashkenazi Jews are autosomally quite close in genetic distance to Italians. Whereas, the Ashkenazi are at quite a distance from Iraqi Jews who anthropologists believe are most like the Jews of the time of Jesus.
When believers in British-Israelism see an Ashkenazi Jew, with a European appearance, they believe naively that the Jews and Northwest Europeans are quite similar. This is fueled by the conventional but erroneous wisdom that Jews have always strived to preserve their racial purity. The European admixture of the Ashkenazi makes BI more credible in the minds of those who do not inquire further. Yet in the time of Jesus, the Ashkenazi branch of the Jewish people did not exist. Yet, most of the Jews in the picture look like Ashkenazis.
I agree with Miller that it is not about Jesus's appearance. But GTA made a statement about this long ago. He observed that Jesus, in appearance, was intermediate among all the races of the world. If there is any value in knowing something about Jesus' appearance, I think that is it.
But it really messes with Herman Hoeh's idea that Jesus was White and, therefore, God is White. Obviously, Hoeh was thinking in terms of Jesus looking like an Ashkenazi. But then, in Hoeh's day there were no genetic studies. Now we have no excuse for this kind of error, either theologically or biologically.
You shall not make ......any likeness...
ReplyDeleteOf anything above or below, as I recall
DeleteIs it entirely smart to portray Jesus as holding or displaying His heart out in view, glowing within the tunic
Delete““You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.”
ReplyDeleteExodus 20:4-6 NLT
To worship an idol means to worship the idol. Not to create something that makes you reflect on Lord your God. You sit before a logo when you go to church, I assume because it makes you reflect on God. Are you worshipping that image?
Did the tabernacle break the commandment?
We have to be careful here. The KJV does not say "idol", it says "graven (carved) image". We are not supposed to even make carved images. Why? Because they lend themselves to being worshipped as idols. We're not supposed to even start down that road. "Idol" in the NLT is a misleading translation, because it implies that it's okay to make a graven image as long as we don't see it as being an idol, or potential idol. The second commandment is about not even starting down a wrong road. Not that I think that the KJV is always the best translation, sometimes it goes way off the rails. But in this case it translates the verse accurately.
DeleteYet, Solomons temple featured images...
Delete“ ou sit before a logo when you go to church, I assume because it makes you reflect on God. Are you worshipping that image?”
ReplyDeleteExactly! They sit before a podium seal of the mistranslation of the lion, lamb, and little child each week. They are very foundational symbol is a miss translation of scripture which pretty much describes all of Armstrongism.
Jesus was human during the time He walked the earth. If it's wrong to have a painting of him as a man, it's wrong for there to be photos of any of us as well. It is idolatry to artistically depict Him in his glorified state, and then worship that idol.
ReplyDeleteThere is one theory that at least some of the early paintings were patterned after the image left on the shroud of Turin. Everything about Jesus was so miraculous that it is indeed possible that there is some substance to that theory.
Shroud Of Turin? a lunatic from Australia named BRIAN LEONARD GOLIGHTLY MARSHALL looks like the wacky wax or stain image screen printed into that burlap shroud...and him & & his loony wife think Brian literally is Jesus. The shroud is primitive experimentation with screen printing like on our t shirts.
Delete11.37. It's also wrong to allow Troll-guys comments to appear.
ReplyDeletethe "Banned" site here is likely operating under the honourable creed similar to Prime Directive on Star Trek, of avoiding to interfere by sifting freedom of speech out...(to the extent where society won't totally dismantle the site at least)🚫
DeleteOften it is still somewhat safe to defend the rights of free speech even if it's not p/c
so over time, the trolls here may still present a value of light worth?
Cory:
ReplyDeleteI knew an AC student who theorized that the first commandment prohibited the creation of any kind of image whether for worship or not. No drawings, no cartoons, no sculpture, no nothing. I don't know if he still holds to this position.
The Jewish Study Bible does not provide a large study of this issue. It just states that only images for idolatrous worship are prohibited and refers to V.5 in Exodus 20.
I heard GTA once mention that the only seeming inconsistency in the Bible that he knew of was the making of cherubim for the temple in violation of the first commandment. I do not recall how he further explained this.
I believe that it is a less to Biblical literalists that in the the first commandment, dealing with God himself, at the beginning of the Torah, there is already room for midrash.
Was this the account of GTA's opinion of cherubim on ark, inconsistencies, etc.? :
Delete"The obvious thrust of the Second Commandment is that “images” were not to be made for the purpose of worship!
However, a simple amount of research will prove that Almighty God Himself approved the use of various figures and representations of cherubim as a part of the tabernacle in the wilderness, and the temple of God!
The great difference is that wherein God allowed Moses and the children of Israel to decorate the tabernacle in the wilderness with the figures of cherubim, and ordered Moses to hold a brazen serpent aloft to stop a plague of snakes, it was authorized of God, and done for the purposes of God, and not as a representation of “God” or something to be worshipped.
Some modern cults have even eschewed photographs, and many a pagan tribe believes there is something of “magic” or “witchcraft” in the taking of pictures!
But a picture is not a “graven image” for the purpose of worship, and is certainly not a breaking of the Second Commandment!
All that I have said concerning pagan nations of the world in relationship to the First Commandment applies equally to the second. The two are closely intertwined."
https://www.garnertedarmstrong.org/the-ten-commandments/
One of the many things I began to see about Armstrongism even as a child was that the ministers bash other Christian religions. When I was ten years old, and we attended the Feast for the first time in 1958 in the then new steel tabernacle in Tejas, it was the first time we had ever seen HWA in person, the first time I had actually known about others such as GTA, or RCM. GTA described the Pope as being "just a fat little old roly-poly man, and wondered why people should even listen to him. Dean Blackwell ridiculed what he called "hard shell" Baptists for their strictness, and then related that whenever he baptized a new member who had been Baptist, he'd invite them to his house and sometime in the course of the evening, he'd open up a brand new pack of Bicycles (popular brand of playing cards) and get up a game at the dining room table,
ReplyDeleteThis continued. Rod Meredith always called Ellen G. White "Mrs, Egg Whites". They made fun of AA Allen, and Kathryn Kuhlman. Remarks were made about Billy Graham "really" knowing that he was wrong in teaching Sunday-keeping. They told us the Orthodox Jews separated the sheets of toilet paper for sabbath use because tearing at the perforations would be working on the sabbath, and that an observant Jew could only swat a mosquito on the sabbath if it bit him. They didn't just say that Jesus looked like a hippie in the very popular pictures most Christians had in their homes. They said He looked like a homosexual, or at the very least, effeminate.
We had never heard such criticisms of others in the Methodist church my family had attended before. As kids, we made friends with all the kids in our neighborhood regardless of their religions. We might ask what church they went to, but beyond that, we respected what ever their answer was. The thing is, HWA and his lackeys made fun of anyone and everyone who had different beliefs or opinions from those he taught. The worst thing we were taught was not to get too close to our neighbors or classmates, because they didn't know the truth and the Germans were going to get them. People who come here to this blog from the ACOGs wonder why we have to bash HWA and his church and the ministers. The truth is, we are just turning the bashing they taught us around, and throwing it back at them. We are doing unto them what they have done to others. This is a very horrible distinction, not a good way in which our former church was different from the others. But, it is especially bad to ridicule others' concepts of Jesus. That poisons peoples' minds even worse than racism often poisons the minds of "whi' peepo"
Cory,
ReplyDeleteAs Anon717 stated, you must put this into the context of Ex. 20:5. Else, what is the point of verse 5. If the meaning as you assert is that no images should be made, then is verse 5 in effect saying, "But, if you do choose to disobey and make these images, don't bow down to them"?
I think it is obvious (very obvious) that it is only a prohibition against graven images that you intend to bow before.
Anonymous Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:54:00 AM PDT - your observations are spot-on. Even so, I do think that what we are doing here can be distinguished from what Herbie and his disciples did to those who disagreed with them. There is quite a difference between unsupported ridicule and accusations and evidence supported criticisms.
ReplyDeleteEarl and Cory,
The Pharisees liked to parse Torah, and Christ made very clear that he didn't like that approach. The Hebrew Scriptures make clear that idolatry involved much more than physically bowing down before graven images. God accused the nation of Israel of idolatry because of the machinations of their diplomacy with other nations, and their admiration of their military might. Likewise, in the New Testament, Christ made clear that the intent behind the first four of the Ten Commandments was to Love the Lord your God with your whole heart and soul. That being the case almost anything could become an idol - It seems to me that what is in a person's heart is crucial in determining whether or not he/she has committed the sin of idolatry.
Some of us from the AC Underground leading up to the final countdown to 1975 had our own version of the seal. In our version, the lion was eating the lamb, and the child was running off screaming in terror.
ReplyDeleteFunny thing about that seal. Somebody thought "Wow! Wouldn't it be a gas to rent a tame lion and a lamb for photo ops at the 1967 Ministerial Ball?"
So, they had some chairs set out for the minister and his wife, the lion posed next to the minister, his wife cradling the lamb on her lap, and a child actor next to the wife. Now, just imagine, these folks were dressed to the nines, cause it was a very formal event, meaning tuxedos and gowns. It started out as great fun, until the lamb cut loose with a nice warm stream of urine all over one of the minister's wive's laps! Of course, they didn't want to do anything that would excite even a tame lion, so Mrs. Minister had to just relax and endure. I had volunteered for kitchen duty, as it was something the student body put on for the ministers, and as she came past the front of the kitchen area where the students normally got their trays filled and headed towards the ladies restroom on the far end, that poor woman was very gracious and understanding, but it had clearly ruined her evening and most likely the gown, which may or may not have been rented.
They didn't just say that Jesus looked like a hippie in the very popular pictures most Christians had in their homes. They said He looked like a homosexual, or at the very least, effeminate.
ReplyDeleteHow did Rod Meredith know what a homosexual looked like?
Something deep within me would probably compel me to bow before Stevie Ray Vaughan's Strat #1! Guess I just happen to be lucky that that is not a graven image.
ReplyDeleteLonnie,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. When i referred to Ex. 20:5 I intended to convey that verse 5 would be superfluous if verse 4 meant simply making an image was wrong.
At that point, why give instruction about not bowing down to them when the existence of an image is already established as a sin as Cory and others claim (incorrectly).
So, to fully clarify, images are not wrong without the intent to worship them.
Probably, centuries from now (assuming humans find the solution to climate change), the big argument will be over whether Elvis was Black or Jewish.
ReplyDeleteIt's kind of cool that there can even be such debates, if you think about it. I read somewhere that African-Americans are the most imitated ethnic group on the face of the earth in all of history. I know some of my favorite parts of my own personal culture were influenced by them! In my opinion, Gerald Flurry has most definitely picked the wrong dancers!
It’s ironic that the ACOGs label pictures of Jesus, such as those accompanying this post, as idolatry – since this belief showcases two related heresies at the crux of Armstrongism. Armstrongism is full of idolatry, accompanied with the avoidance of the Lordship of Jesus. Within Armstrongism, Jesus is not presented as supremely reigning as Lord of All, so idolatry fills the void.
ReplyDeleteWhat Armstrongites discuss, preach, and write demonstrates that the law takes a seat higher than their version of Jesus as a soon coming, but not present King. Even British Israelism gets more play than does the Lordship ministry of Jesus.
COGs don’t view Jesus as having an active, daily role in changing their lives through grace, redemption, justification, and sanctification. Instead, Armstrongites prefer the law as the supreme and only means by which they experience growth and connection to God.
The law is more real and acceptable to Armstrongites than the real Jesus is, so the law is their idol. The COGs prefer to either earn their salvation by keeping their version of the law, or at least co-save themselves by qualifying for salvation – while Jesus is simple not enough for them.
Additionally, much could be said about how Armstrongites idolize HWA and their version of church government. Every stray concept, such as focusing on the recurrent troubles facing the world, Germany, Germany, Germany, and multiple Beasties are idols distracting the people from Jesus, as the supremacy and active ministry of Jesus is downplayed in Armstrongism.
Yes, there are Christian groups that use symbols of Jesus, or icons, in their worship – however, these Christians do not believe that the wood, canvas, gold, or marble used to represent Jesus, is Jesus; therefore, that is not idolatry. However, the Armstrongite distaste for all things Jesus displays their lack of gusto for him – Jesus’ image, in any form, doesn’t excite them.