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Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
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Wednesday, December 27, 2023
How Logic Works In Armstrongism
Armstrong Logic
This is an image created by the Etruscans as an offering
Lev 23:5-6 KJV In the 14th day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the 15th day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: 7 days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Herbert "logic": And on the 15th day of the same month begins the 7 day feast of unleavened bread.
Esther 3:7 In the first month, that is, the month Nisan.......... Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
Conclusion: DUB is Nisan 14-20. The 15th, one day, is the NTBMO feast of eating and drinking (celebrating the exodus).
11:07 Lev 23 is clear. Ezek 45 much less. So to use the latter as proof that the Passover/FUB is from 14-20 when the former explicitly states 14th is PO and 15th is FUB and the FUB is to be 7 days ie 15-21 then I believe the onus is on you to prove your claim.
This is spot on what Armstrongism was like. Dead on bullseye.
I recall once, back in the day, I was sitting in a venue listening to Steven Collings talk about how Javan is Japan because they both sound alike. ....except Japan is not Javan by any stretch of the imagination.
I can't count how many times I've heard silly linguistic false etymology exactly like what you're showing here. "Easter is Ishtar because they sound alike, and you're all pagans!"
The idiots kept naming their church and splinters something sounding huge, plus "Church of God", claiming to have the right name, but failing to realize that the Catholic Church beat them to it . The full name is Catholic Church of God. And, Catholic simply means "Universal"!
4:36: OK. Attempt to “prove” with more verses/Hebrew/Greek...... Ex 23:14-16: only 3 “chags”-Hebrew. “Times” is stroke/step, not “seasons”. Lev 23:2: mistranslated. Chapter lists “moeds”, fixed times, feasts & sabbaths Ex 12:16-17: convocation, then feast of UB, NTBMO, on 15th - Num 33:3. Ex 12:18: can refer to beginning of 14th to beginning of 21st. Deut 16:2-4: eat UB with Passover 7 days, not 8 days. Lamb sacrificed first day. Josh 5:10: Passover kept, all of it, on 14th, including eating at night - Ex 12:8. 2Chr 35:1, 14: Confusing tradition began?, kill in daylight 14th, eat night of 15th Mat 26:17: Passover/lamb killed first day. Jesus ate it night before Jews did. Mark 14:1: Passover after 2 days, and UB after 2 days Mark 14:12: Passover/lamb killed first day Luke 22:1: Feast of UB called Passover. Luke 22:7: Lamb killed on day of unleavened bread. John 19:14: Preparation of lambs on 14th for eating on the 15th-Jewish tradition John 19:31: Jewish Passover high day on weekly sabbath that year Luke 23:54: mistranslated. …sabbath (14th) began to grow light (darkness leaving) Acts 12:3-4: Herod took Peter during days of UB, took Peter on Passover?
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread
Nu 28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD. Nu 28:17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
I really cannot understand how someone can quote Lev 23:5-6 and then argue that the fourteenth is the beginning of the feast of Unleavened Bread; this may need to be qualified as 11:07 has argued that the feast is only one day based on a literal reading of Lev 23:6; but Ezek 45:22 & 25 note that it is a feast of seven days.
I have engaged him numerous times but to no avail.
In regard to the latter part of your note: “Lev 23 is clear. Ezek 45 much less.”
below is Leslie Allen's translation giving THE SENSE of Eze 45:21-23:
“On the fourteenth day of the first month you should hold the passover, AFTER WHICH unleavened bread is to be eaten for seven days. The head of state is to provide on that day a bull as a sin offering for himself and all the people in the land. During the seven days of the festival he is to provide as a holocaust to Yaweh seven bulls and seven rams, unblemished beasts, on each of the seven days; also a young goat as a sin offering each day...”
A Eze 45:21a In the first month, IN THE FOURTEENTH DAY of the month, ye shall have the passover B Eze 45:21b A FEAST OF SEVEN DAYS; unleavened bread shall be eaten A1 Eze 45:22 And UPON THAT DAY shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering. B1 Eze 45:23 And SEVEN DAYS OF THE FEAST he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
"[In] the combined passover and festival of unleavened bread in the spring ... [the] ... sequencing ... [of the] ... two-part celebration in vv 21/22/23-24 represents an AB/A'/B' structure. In each case there is some emphasis upon the sin offering. In particular, the passover sin offering has no parallel in the Pentateuch. This emphasis aligns with v 17b and implies the regular need to purify the sanctuary and so protect its holiness from the people's sins" (Leslie C. Allen, Ezekiel 20-48, WBC, p.266).
The 'athnach placed under "passover' sets up the AB sequencing in v.21.
Below has A/A1 = the 14th; and B/B2 = 15th-21st
A Eze 45:21a In the first month, IN THE FOURTEENTH DAY of the month, ye shall have the passover, A1 Eze 45:22 And UPON THAT DAY shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
B Eze 45:21b A FEAST OF SEVEN DAYS; unleavened bread shall be eaten. B1 Eze 45:23 And SEVEN DAYS OF THE FEAST he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
"In particular, the passover sin offering has no parallel in the Pentateuch." **************** Num 29:36-39: But you shall offer.........one goat for a sin offering.....These you shall do unto the Lord in your set feasts...
The passover was a set feast - Ex 12:14. In Ezekiel: on the 14th the prince shall prepare for himself and for all the people a bullock sin offering, and on the 14th he shall prepare to the Lord, in addition to the offering for himself, the burnt offering and goat sin offering.
Hi 5:43. I won’t spend much time in responding to your post as my response won’t be accepted.
Leslie Allen is correct. Your argument does not prove otherwise.
In the Mosaic Torah the Passover was a sacrifice that was killed between the two evenings on the fourteen day of the sacred year and eaten in the night of the fifteenth.
Your quote Numbers 29:39 which in part reads “in your set feasts”.
There are only three feasts :). It would have been better to read “in your moedim”.
Nu 28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD. Nu 28:17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. Nu 28:18 In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein: Nu 28:19 But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish: Nu 28:20 And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram; Nu 28:21 A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs: Nu 28:22 And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.
In Numbers 28 the male goat sin offering is not prescribed for the Tamid, Sabbath and the fourteenth of the first month. But in Nu 28-29 it is prescribed for the New Moons, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Alarm-blasts, Atonement, Tabernacles and the Eighth Day.
“Since Passover observance is primarily in the family, and the present text is focussing on sacrifices for public festivals [moedim], Passover is noted here only briefly in order to give full picture of the calendar” (W. H. Bellinger, Jr., Leviticus, Numbers, NIBC, p.288).
Ezekiel's sequencing of Passover/Unleavened Bread agrees with Exodus 12:3-6 and Numbers 28:16-22.
Just more lies about Armstrongism
ReplyDeleteLev 23:5-6 KJV In the 14th day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the 15th day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: 7 days ye must eat unleavened bread.
ReplyDeleteHerbert "logic": And on the 15th day of the same month begins the 7 day feast of unleavened bread.
Esther 3:7 In the first month, that is, the month Nisan.......... Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
Conclusion: DUB is Nisan 14-20. The 15th, one day, is the NTBMO feast of eating and drinking (celebrating the exodus).
11:07
DeleteLev 23 is clear. Ezek 45 much less. So to use the latter as proof that the Passover/FUB is from 14-20 when the former explicitly states 14th is PO and 15th is FUB and the FUB is to be 7 days ie 15-21 then I believe the onus is on you to prove your claim.
This is spot on what Armstrongism was like. Dead on bullseye.
ReplyDeleteI recall once, back in the day, I was sitting in a venue listening to Steven Collings talk about how Javan is Japan because they both sound alike.
....except Japan is not Javan by any stretch of the imagination.
I can't count how many times I've heard silly linguistic false etymology exactly like what you're showing here. "Easter is Ishtar because they sound alike, and you're all pagans!"
Lies? I think not! Tuatha de Danann anybody?
ReplyDeleteThe Tuath De, the tribe of the gods, with supernatural powers and a predilection for sorcery.
DeleteThe idiots kept naming their church and splinters something sounding huge, plus "Church of God", claiming to have the right name, but failing to realize that the Catholic Church beat them to it . The full name is Catholic Church of God. And, Catholic simply means "Universal"!
ReplyDelete4:36: OK. Attempt to “prove” with more verses/Hebrew/Greek......
ReplyDeleteEx 23:14-16: only 3 “chags”-Hebrew. “Times” is stroke/step, not “seasons”.
Lev 23:2: mistranslated. Chapter lists “moeds”, fixed times, feasts & sabbaths
Ex 12:16-17: convocation, then feast of UB, NTBMO, on 15th - Num 33:3.
Ex 12:18: can refer to beginning of 14th to beginning of 21st.
Deut 16:2-4: eat UB with Passover 7 days, not 8 days. Lamb sacrificed first day.
Josh 5:10: Passover kept, all of it, on 14th, including eating at night - Ex 12:8.
2Chr 35:1, 14: Confusing tradition began?, kill in daylight 14th, eat night of 15th
Mat 26:17: Passover/lamb killed first day. Jesus ate it night before Jews did.
Mark 14:1: Passover after 2 days, and UB after 2 days
Mark 14:12: Passover/lamb killed first day
Luke 22:1: Feast of UB called Passover.
Luke 22:7: Lamb killed on day of unleavened bread.
John 19:14: Preparation of lambs on 14th for eating on the 15th-Jewish tradition
John 19:31: Jewish Passover high day on weekly sabbath that year
Luke 23:54: mistranslated. …sabbath (14th) began to grow light (darkness leaving)
Acts 12:3-4: Herod took Peter during days of UB, took Peter on Passover?
Hi 4:36,
ReplyDeleteLev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread
Nu 28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
Nu 28:17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
I really cannot understand how someone can quote Lev 23:5-6 and then argue that the fourteenth is the beginning of the feast of Unleavened Bread; this may need to be qualified as 11:07 has argued that the feast is only one day based on a literal reading of Lev 23:6; but Ezek 45:22 & 25 note that it is a feast of seven days.
I have engaged him numerous times but to no avail.
In regard to the latter part of your note: “Lev 23 is clear. Ezek 45 much less.”
below is Leslie Allen's translation giving THE SENSE of Eze 45:21-23:
“On the fourteenth day of the first month you should hold the passover, AFTER WHICH unleavened bread is to be eaten for seven days. The head of state is to provide on that day a bull as a sin offering for himself and all the people in the land. During the seven days of the festival he is to provide as a holocaust to Yaweh seven bulls and seven rams, unblemished beasts, on each of the seven days; also a young goat as a sin offering each day...”
A Eze 45:21a In the first month, IN THE FOURTEENTH DAY of the month, ye shall have the passover
B Eze 45:21b A FEAST OF SEVEN DAYS; unleavened bread shall be eaten
A1 Eze 45:22 And UPON THAT DAY shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
B1 Eze 45:23 And SEVEN DAYS OF THE FEAST he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
"[In] the combined passover and festival of unleavened bread in the spring ... [the] ... sequencing ... [of the] ... two-part celebration in vv 21/22/23-24 represents an AB/A'/B' structure. In each case there is some emphasis upon the sin offering. In particular, the passover sin offering has no parallel in the Pentateuch. This emphasis aligns with v 17b and implies the regular need to purify the sanctuary and so protect its holiness from the people's sins" (Leslie C. Allen, Ezekiel 20-48, WBC, p.266).
The 'athnach placed under "passover' sets up the AB sequencing in v.21.
Below has A/A1 = the 14th; and B/B2 = 15th-21st
A Eze 45:21a In the first month, IN THE FOURTEENTH DAY of the month, ye shall have the passover,
A1 Eze 45:22 And UPON THAT DAY shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
B Eze 45:21b A FEAST OF SEVEN DAYS; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
B1 Eze 45:23 And SEVEN DAYS OF THE FEAST he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
"In particular, the passover sin offering has no parallel in the Pentateuch."
ReplyDelete****************
Num 29:36-39: But you shall offer.........one goat for a sin offering.....These you shall do unto the Lord in your set feasts...
The passover was a set feast - Ex 12:14. In Ezekiel: on the 14th the prince shall prepare for himself and for all the people a bullock sin offering, and on the 14th he shall prepare to the Lord, in addition to the offering for himself, the burnt offering and goat sin offering.
Hi 5:43. I won’t spend much time in responding to your post as my response won’t be accepted.
ReplyDeleteLeslie Allen is correct. Your argument does not prove otherwise.
In the Mosaic Torah the Passover was a sacrifice that was killed between the two evenings on the fourteen day of the sacred year and eaten in the night of the fifteenth.
Your quote Numbers 29:39 which in part reads “in your set feasts”.
There are only three feasts :). It would have been better to read “in your moedim”.
Nu 28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
Nu 28:17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Nu 28:18 In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:
Nu 28:19 But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish:
Nu 28:20 And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram;
Nu 28:21 A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs:
Nu 28:22 And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.
In Numbers 28 the male goat sin offering is not prescribed for the Tamid, Sabbath and the fourteenth of the first month. But in Nu 28-29 it is prescribed for the New Moons, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Alarm-blasts, Atonement, Tabernacles and the Eighth Day.
“Since Passover observance is primarily in the family, and the present text is focussing on sacrifices for public festivals [moedim], Passover is noted here only briefly in order to give full picture of the calendar” (W. H. Bellinger, Jr., Leviticus, Numbers, NIBC, p.288).
Ezekiel's sequencing of Passover/Unleavened Bread agrees with Exodus 12:3-6 and Numbers 28:16-22.