Why is it that the Church of God ministry and its leaders have always been so afraid of questions? If one dared to ask a question about doctrine, church issues, or the Bible, the spittle would start flying, faces would turn red with veins popping as they angrily shut you down. How DARE YOU question God's anointed! How DARE YOU!
How many times did you witness Herbert pounding his desk as he bellowed at the members? Remember red-faced Rod Meredith with his veins popping in his forehead yelling at members?
One thing I have always done at the church I attend when leading new member classes is to tell people to question. Just because a minister says something, does not mean you have to agree with it. It is not necessary to always have the answer and just when you think you have the answer another question should arise. That's the only way a person grows mentally or spiritually.
Armstrongism has always despised questions. Sure, they would allow questions at Bible Study services, but if a question was too deep or too close to the power structure, it was either mocked or placed in the "we will get to this later" pile. Most of the time mocking and ridiculing was the route to go. Humiliate people in front of others and they will never question again. Lesson learned.
I am an [elderly] man who was disfellowshipped from the Worldwide Church of God in 1974. My problem with the WCG ministry (or their problem with me) was that I refused to simply accept what they taught as if their words came directly from God’s lips. They tired (and were often seriously offended) by my constant questions, to the point where one day they simply asked (forced) me to leave the WCG.
Since then, (except for a hiatus of some twenty years), I have tried to keep abreast of the many changes and upheavals of the WCG and its many offshoots. Although I have had no affiliation with any of these groups, I have over the past fifty years tried to engage several of the ministry (about 12-14) in a discussion of their more egregious teachings. Not one of these men would honestly consider my concerns, let alone discuss them with me. They have collectively, for many years now, simply chosen to ignore my queries so that I no longer even try to reach out to them.
The anger and contempt I once had for the ministry has been replaced by feelings of disappointment and sorrow. And yet, no matter how wrong-headed I consider many of these men to be, I have chosen to believe that somewhere in their hearts and minds, some (perhaps even most) of them truly believe they are doing God and their members a service. Exit and Support Network
Why are they afraid of questions? Because they have a specific set of answers for a specific set of questions that cannot change because it's based on a dogma that is only biblical in part. To exercise the mind beyond that, means the only thing they can resort to at that point because of their limited knowledge of the Bible, is to call you a heretic and then boot you out.
ReplyDeleteArmstrongism has always despised questions’.
ReplyDeleteHow true.
And to this day.
I recently put a comment up on the lcog YT Tomorrows World.
Pointed out what I perceived as obvious errors and provided my sources and was dismissed by their reply, with the ‘we will see how things pan out’. I do take that as a little acknowledgment that they didn’t have an answer to my concerns about their board cast.
It reminds me of a record player stuck in its ‘grove’ and unable to free itself.
How refreshingly different is the gospel of Jesus Christ and His openness to one and all.
There were also a number of insolent, impertinent weirdos who had naturally disruptive personalities that somehow glommed on to the church. I have to wonder if that might be what we're dealing with here.
ReplyDeleteOh, oh I see. You mean we are the weirdos. Not me, but I've certainly ran across some.
Delete"I have over the past fifty years tried to engage several of the ministry (about 12-14) in a discussion of their more egregious teachings."
ReplyDeleteMore fool you.
There are few and far in between that will have actual real discussions with you about questions asked without getting their feathers ruffled. I know of one that will actually tell you that he doesn't know the answer if he doesn't.
DeleteHeh, I got raked at a job once because if someone on my crew asked a question I didnt know the answer to, I'd write the question down and go find out for them. Apparently that was frowned on. It was a strange moment and I moved on pretty quickly.
DeleteI'd like to ask Premier Weston why his LCG mailroom was permitted to post prayer requests up where his staff got to laugh & jeer & ridicule those who wrote in for help.
ReplyDeleteRCM was a Golden Gloves boxer. Being involved in the martial arts take a certain type of courage. But he was, I think, an intellectual coward. He wouldn't tolerate questions in first year Bible. He would interrupt, talk down to people and give his pat answer without considering the question with any degree of seriousness. He was probably afraid that if he allowed himself to really examine some issues, he would find that he was in error. He had too much invested in the church to question anything and put at risk his position, title, home on Waverly Drive, etc.
ReplyDeleteI'd be interested in hearing some of his questions. Maybe he had good, substantive questions, or maybe he was one of the kooks always trying to stump the minister.
ReplyDeleteI can remember the Dankenbring followers that would infiltrate our congregation and try to convince us that Passover was really on the 13th.
Is smoking a sin? That was the question that derailed a Bible Study I was once at. Seemed like half said yes and half said no. I understand why sometimes questions are frowned upon.
ReplyDeleteWCG - and some of their offshoots - idea of difficult questions are ones they have the pat answer to - like why one Bible account has 70 people with Jacob, and another has 75.
ReplyDeleteAnalyzing how the account of Exodus has any basis in reality does not come up on their difficult questions - because there are no good answers.
It was kind of cool to be a hoody teenager back in the old WCG days. We knew who each other were and hung out together at services. The authorities somehow never caught on, and they actually had some of us serving beer at potluck feast days, which ended up being party time, bigtime for us. On one of these occasions, feeling no pain, we amused ourselves by making up stupid questions for Bible Study, like, "Is it OK to smoke on the Day of Atonement?"
ReplyDeleteWe thought we were being obtuse, and outrageously funny, until further on down the line when some of the actual questions submitted by the brethren outdid any of our satirical questions with their real ones. One Bible Study, oh, I'll just spit it all out, and you guys can judge for yourselves! It must have been embarrassing for the minister later on when it finally dawned on him that he had really stepped in it that night.
Somebody asked why Ezekiel complained about eating human dung, and asked God to allow him to eat cow dung instead. The minister, no doubt having taken Zoology in his advanced education at Ambassador College, went into a complex explanation of why the human digestive system was far more efficient, meaning that the human excrement would be much more toxic. Nobody seemed to pick up on the very obvious, which was that God didn't command Ezekiel to eat the dung, but to cook with it! This farce was a perfect illustration of the group think in which COG members were entranced during all official gatherings!
It's the same story reading dissident sites from other Christian denominations. One poster wrote that after questioning a doctrine, was told to read only their church literature and not read the bible. These churches all venerate their peculiar blend of truth and error, and put this concoction before God. Which is why the common phenomena of people joining a church, natively believing everything they are told, and when they eventually perceive contradictions with their bible, they often go with their church rather than God. It's at this point that God stops answering their prayers. They failed their "mark of the beast" test.
ReplyDeleteTalking about smoking, decades ago I watched an old WW2 black and white war movie starring Van Johnson. He called cigarettes "coffin nails." So even back then they understood tobacco's dangers.
I've got my fresh carton of Newports for election night. If the racist party's candidate retakes the office of POTUS, I am so going to enjoy my first cigarette in about twenty five years, cause nothing will matter any more. I'm also checking into how to best cut loose some
ReplyDeletefunds to Black Lives Matter, Planned Parenthood, and other pro-humanity-pro-democracy groups. Womens' rights groups as well.
" If the racist party's candidate retakes the office of POTUS, I am so going to enjoy my first cigarette in about twenty five years, cause nothing will matter any more."
ReplyDeleteComments like that just amaze me. It shows how easily the antichrist will gather a following.
Morally, there is not much difference between Trump and Biden. Policy wise, however, the one that had this country on the road to prosperity is vilified, while the one that is destroying it at an unbelievable speed is praised.
It also amazes me that Black Lives Matter, Planned Parenthood, and other "women's rights groups" are viewed as pro-humanity when they are the absolute opposite.
Since God has been pushed aside in this country people's ability to think clearly has gone down the toilet.
Enjoy your Newports.
I am not convinced that 3:02 was serious.
DeleteI'm real and serious, RSK at 9:35! Those are my attitudes. Obviously I will be assessing and reassessing, but these Neanderthals are actually going after birth control now that they've got Roe v Wade gutted!
DeleteThe normal party platforms we know and count on have been hijacked by the "Squad" on the left, and rhe "Crazy Eight" on the right! With the thin majorities, the normal slightly left of center or slightly right of center members of Congress need the crazies' votes to pass any legislation whatsoever. W
What is it now, 23 Republicans now walking away from the House, and not seeking reelection because you can't succeed as a Representative unless you're MAGA?
Looks like checkmate to me!
There you go, 7:21! You, as one of the blind deceived, are part of the problem, and you can't even see what is happening. An insurrectionist who relies on the militias for his backing, and has openly discussed modifying the sacred document known as the Constitution, could very well become our country's first dictator, and just because you like what he has to say about abortion, and illegal aliens, you're willing to let him get away with the 90% of his agenda that will destroy life as we've known it. This is not a man who wants to preserve God, the Constitution, and the American way! This is a megalomaniac of a man who wants to redefine all of that and impose his version of it in on all of us in horrible, deceitful, authoritarian ways. Did you think this was "just another" election, and all the candidates are normal??? You are deifying the real man of sin!
ReplyDeleteHere is the tell-all one liner: "If you ask an ACOG minister a question, it's not going to result in an intellectual discussion!"
ReplyDelete1006,
ReplyDeleteYou need to breathe….
Trump has already been President and none of your fears of a dictatorship are supported. He didn’t flex military muscle, he didn’t restrict gun rights, he didn’t restrict free speech, he didn’t use lawfare as we see today, he didn’t dehumanize the elderly ir the young (further supported unborn lives), he didn’t use unelected agencies to do his legislative and punitive work, etc.
Those are the things a dictator does, and Trump didn’t. In fact, quite the opposite.
it is the current administration that is doing all of those things. Open your eyes.
thanks 1:55 good points
DeleteYes, he did either do all of those things you said he didn't, (except for gun control) plus he fomented a pretty scary insurrection. He blew through so many of our normal checks and balances that it makes one's head spin. And, now, he's pissed off and bitter and making all manner of retaliatory threats that sound pretty damned dictatorial. Presidents do their worst damage during their second terms when they are no longer worried about being reelected. You need to listen to what he's saying!
DeleteLiz Cheney and/or Mitt Romney would return things to normal. That's a ticket I would fully support. I am a conservative, but it's just not safe to vote Republican just now.
"An insurrectionist who relies on the militias for his backing, and has openly discussed modifying the sacred document known as the Constitution, could very well become our country's first dictator, and just because you like what he has to say about abortion, and illegal aliens, you're willing to let him get away with the 90% of his agenda that will destroy life as we've known it."
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly why Biden (Obama) needs to be voted out.
Anon1006,
ReplyDeleteAre you kidding me! How does a gunless "insurrection" and a militia even relate? You have blindly accepted the media bias. If you are wanting to find a group that hangs on one issue it is the pro-abortion crowd. Protection of our borders even simply to the extent of knowing who is crossing them is not the trifle you seem to dismiss it as.
You didn't see the footage of what was going on at the entrance of the back tunnel? It's available, it's violent, and they were looking to get in to kill Mike Pence! For God's sake, man, take time to inform yourself!
Deleteisn't Biden an insurrectionist when he lets all the unmasked covid immigrants in here
ReplyDelete@1:55AM
ReplyDeleteYou conveniently forget it was The Feds leading the violence. It was clearly a false flag attack to try to blame the MAGA crowd.
The Feds???? That's been totally debunked! In fact, the hundreds of hours of film footage not only proved that it was not the Feds, but also led to the identification and arrest, and conviction of many of the leaders of the violence. Trump says the first thing he's going to do once back in office is pardon the rioters and get them out of prison.
ReplyDeleteOne person I know from our local area went to Washington as part of the Stop the Steal group. I don't know what his level of participation was while there because he wouldn't say much. I tried to help him by sharing that I had been raised in a cult, and had been persuaded by the cult leaders to do some things that I later realized I should have gotten second opinions about. The poor guy found out when he got back that the Feds visited his mother and some of his friends. I haven't seen him since. It reminded me of how we used to get investigated as conscientious objectors back in the day.
Yep, you drank the Flavor Aid.
ReplyDeleteDebunked? Hmmmmm
ReplyDeletehttps://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/03/another-fbi-operative-identified-us-capitol-grounds-jan/
What does any of this have to do with MAGA, Democrats, or Republicans? Why does everything have to get hijacked by this craziness
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't. Unless a comment is made about the original post, which never mentioned politics, I will no longer let political posts through on this thread.
ReplyDeleteEh, this thread sorta just flowed in that direction. It seems to have started with "Saturday, March 9, 2024 at 3:02:00 PM PST". That comment was expressing a fear of Trump being re-elected and how wonderful certain organizations are.
ReplyDeleteThat led to the comment about the antichrist easily gaining a following due to people being so easily deceived.
Then a comment about a false flag attack and deception by the US Government.
It kinda all fits when you consider that the bible says the USA will collapse, the people being divided and going into captivity. We very well could be witnessing that now as an argument could be made that the people are divided.
I can understand you not wanting this place to become campaign headquarters for different politicians, but politics and religion are intertwined. Especially when you consider that the gospel message Jesus Christ brought is about the coming Kingdom of God which will replace man's kingdoms.
Dear Mr. Minister,
ReplyDeleteOur parents were down with the flu, and they asked my friend and I to go ahead and take his parents car, and drive to church and take really good notes so they wouldn't miss anything important. It was about an hour's drive into the city. As we drove, my friend played his Black Sabbath CDs, but I can't help but wonder, is it actually OK to listen to Black Sabbath on the sabbath? His parents are a little more liberal than mine. Mine only let me listen to certain Elton John and Billy Joel songs.
Thanks in advance for your wisdom!
Respectfully,
Rocko