Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders

Thursday, June 13, 2024

Ministry of Death or Simply the Law of Moses? Armstrongism’s Dubious Tailoring of the Torah

 

The Sabbath-breaker Stoned. Artistic impression of episode

narrated in Numbers 15. James Tissot c.1900 (Fair Use).

 

Ministry of Death or Simply the Law of Moses?

Armstrongism’s Dubious Tailoring of the Torah

 

By Scout


“But any prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.” -- Deuteronomy 18:20-22, a law in the so-called Ministry of Death - part of the Law of Moses that Armstrongists assert to be cancelled.

 

A family member of mine worked for an American oil company in Saudi Arabia back in the Fifties. While he was there he witnessed a public execution and related this grim event to us when he came back to the United States on a break from work. He even brought photographs although none were close-ups. A man and a woman in an Arab village had been caught in adultery. They were both executed on the village plaza encircled by a crowd of villagers. The man was beheaded and then a sword was driven through his heart. She was shot with a pistol. Many societies throughout history have had some form of death penalty for perceived malefactors. Ancient Israel was no exception (Leviticus 20:10).

In the theocracy of ancient Israel, the Law of Moses (See Note 1) required the death penalty for certain crimes. Armstrongist theology claims that the Law of Moses is still in force and written on the hearts of believers. How then does Armstrongism address the death penalty laws required by the Torah? Of course, Armstrongists do not see these death penalties as still in force. But this exclusion is based on an erroneous view of the Law of Moses and of 2 Corinthians 3:1-11. There is adequate scriptural evidence that the death penalty clauses in the Torah are still a valid part of the Mosaic legislation and cannot be set aside.

 

The Mistaken Armstrongist Interpretation of Paul’s “Ministry of Death”

 

How is it that classical Armstrongism asserts that the Law of Moses is still in force, is written on the hearts of Christians, and yet death penalties required by the Law of Moses are not exacted by the Armstrongist church? The Armstrongist doctrine that deals with this issue is found in the article titled “Is Obedience to God Required for Salvation?” by Roderick C. Meredith. Meredith identifies the clauses in the Torah that require the death penalty with the phrase “ministration of death” in 2 Corinthians 3:7 (KJV). I will use the term “ministry of death” which is found in many translations. Background for Meredith’s article is found in Herman L. Hoeh’s article titled “Which Old Testament Laws Should We Keep Today?”

The Armstrongist explanation of this topic is lengthy so I will review just a few points – enough to demonstrate the faulty nature of the Armstrongist interpretation. Meredith’s interpretation focuses on 2 Corinthians 3 and follows the line of argument that the laws concerning the death penalty, or the Ministry of Death, are contained in the civil law and were “added” to the Ten Commandments 430 years later along with the sacrifices (Gal 3:19) and were only intended to last “until the offspring would come to whom the promise had been made”. Since Meredith provides no exegesis for this supposed later addition to the Torah in his article cited above, it seems to be simply an unsupported assertion. And, a question left hanging is why are these death penalty clauses grouped theologically with the sacrifices and then later abrogated? There is reason for the sacrifices to be dropped. The sacrifice of Jesus replaces them. But Meredith states that the death penalty clauses are “a physical type of the eternal punishment” which is yet future for those who do not obey the Law of Moses. There are no grounds for their discontinuance when the sacrifices were discontinued. Nevertheless, the Armstrongist conclusion is that the death penalty clauses of the civil law vanished along with the sacrifices after Jesus (See Note 2 below). So, Meredith’s interpretation permitted the Worldwide Church of God to not execute people for Sabbath-breaking, for instance, yet to paradoxically believe that the Law of Moses was still in effect.

Meredith does not deny in his article that one ministry is being replaced by another in 2 Corinthians 3:7-11. But his claim is that it is not the Law of Moses that is being replaced but a sub-part of the Law of Moses – the Ministry of Death – laws that require the death penalty. How does he tease out the Ministry of Death from the larger body of legislation so that it may be treated separately? It is not clear how he arrives at this outcome. Meredith does seek to make a distinction between the Ten Commandments and all the remaining laws by asserting that the Ten Commandments were on tables of stone but the “civil law” (his term) was scribed on plastered stones as described in Deuteronomy 27:1-6. And his “civil law” contained the various death penalties. But he does not seem to have established this through exegesis and, further, this does not sort out the death penalty laws for any kind of special status or treatment. He gives us no reason to believe that Deuteronomy 27:1-6 does not refer to the totality of the law communicated through Moses. The Jewish Study Bible notes that the term “Torah” is used in v. 3 but it grants that the term is “elastic” enough to include many interpretations and that there is a significant debate in traditional and critical scholarship about what got written on these plastered stones. Yet, it is this uncertain inscription on plastered stone that forms somehow the crux of Meredith’s argument. What he seems to have, in the final analysis, is a hypothesis based on vocabulary alone that the Ministry of Death mentions death and is, therefore, connected to the various death penalties in the “civil law.” But this deduction does not match the context Paul gives us in 2 Corinthains 3. I will turn to that next.

The general Christian belief is that Paul is speaking of the Law of Moses throughout 2 Corinthians 3. Paul, in this passage, does not break up the Law of Moses into categories for differential treatment anywhere in this passage. Further, the Jewish view is that the ministry of death refers to the fading Old Covenant (See the Jewish Annotated New Testament). Paul is contrasting the New Covenant with the letter of the Law of Moses as a whole. (2 Corinthians 3:6). Paul makes the famous statement, “for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” The “letter” is of general applicability to the entire Torah. The entire Torah has a letter meaning, and violation of the letter meaning leads to sin and finally death (Hebrews 10:28). Paul does not seek to confine the application of the “letter principle” to just certain parts of the Torah as Meredith does.. If Paul were referring to only the death penalty laws, as Meredith contends, and Paul did not explain that, it would be doctrinal malpractice. Further, Paul would not logically contrast the New Covenant as a pathway to salvation only with the sacrifices and civil law of the Law of Moses. The latter, by themselves, would not serve as a comparable pathway to salvation but would be truncated and ineffectual without the entire Torah. So, Christianity logically and exegetically equates the Ministry of Death to the Torah in toto.

Paul also makes a metaphorical connection between the letter of the Law of Moses and his later statement about the “Ministry of Death”. Paul writes of the “letter” of the Old Covenant Law in v. 6. Then he writes of the “letter” of the Law in v. 7 (see Bible Hub Interlinear). In both cases, Paul uses a form of the Greek word “gramma” for “letter” (the “Ministry of Death” should be translated “the Ministry of Death in the letter” according to Ellicott’s Commentary). While that is a literary connection, a more solid circumstantial connection is the fact that Paul associates the Ministry of Death with the radiance of Moses’ face. This radiance occurred when Moses came down from Sinai with the Ten Commandments. And it occurred later whenever Moses went in to speak with God (Exodus 34:29-35). While the use of the veil is unclear in this passage, what is clear is that the radiance is associated with all communications from God beginning with the Ten Commandments and encompassing the remainder of the Torah. When Paul refers to the Ministry of Death he is not referring to isolated, scattered death penalties contained within the Law of Moses. Paul is referring to the Law of Moses itself and in toto. The Law of Moses is called the Ministry of Death because, as he wrote in v. 6, “for the letter kills.”

Armstrongists frequently use the idea that when Paul is speaking about the termination of a body of legislation, he is always talking about the sacrifices and/or the Ministry of Death. It is important to note that in the entire chapter of 2 Corinthians 3, Paul does not mention that he is speaking of only some sub-part of the Law of Moses. He cites the radiance on Moses’ face and this we know from Exodus pertains to the giving of the entire body of legislation - the Decalogue and all else. In v. 15, Paul makes a broad scope statement, “whenever Moses is read” without carefully parsing the Torah into sub-parts. And Paul balances the Ministry of the Spirit against the Ministry of Death after pointing out that the Ministry of Death is ending (vv. 7-8). A replacement is occurring which involves two Ministries that are at parity in some way. They are at parity only when both are considered as pathways to salvation. Yet, as mentioned earlier, the Ministry of Death, as defined narrowly by Meredith is not a comparable pathway to salvation – it is only a small piece of such a pathway. There are other exegeses that define the scope of the Law of Moses, but the language and characterization of 2 Corinthians 3 are adequate to understand that the total New Covenant and the total Old Covenant are under consideration.

An easily understood case that contradicts Meredith’s view is in Exodus and was cited earlier (Exodus 35:2). The Law requires the death penalty for breaking the Sabbath commandment, one of the Ten Commandments. It is clear that the death penalty clauses were not simply transient, civil concerns peripheral to the Decalogue and could be easily disannulled along with the sacrifices as Meredith claims. Here a death penalty is associated with the Fourth Commandment of the Decalogue itself – making the Fourth Commandment a part of the theoretically transient Ministry of Death by Meredith’s reckoning.

Summation

 

The unavoidable conclusion is that the “Ministry of Death” is a synonym for the Law of Moses. Paul states that the “letter” kills. To claim that the Law of Moses is still in force is to claim that its inherent death penalties are also still in force. There is no exegetically valid reason to believe that the death penalties included in the Law of Moses were ever selectively cancelled. This difficulty for Armstrongist denominations is a consequence of taking legislation that was designed for a national theocracy and attempting to re-purpose it and scale it down for modern denominational governance. And the church that believes that the Law of Moses is still required cannot relegate the death penalty to the State because the State does not follow the Law of Moses in its judgments and executions. All of this is not an issue for Christianity because Christian theology holds that the Law of Moses with its inherent death penalties was discontinued and replaced by the Law of Christ (See Note 3 below).

Note 1: It would be naïve of me to try to define “The Law of Moses” as to its textual boundary and any putative sub-parts in the Bible. How it is defined does not affect the argument I make in this article. It is enough to say that Armstrongists exclude the Decalogue from the Law of Moses and most Jews and orthodox Christian denominations include it. Defining the Law of Moses is the topic of significant debate. Both Armstrongists and Christians believe it is much more monolithic than it actually is. The idea that Moses sat down and wrote the five books of the Pentateuch just does not work. The Torah was derived from a number of sources. From the Jewish Study Bible, Second Edition, p.5: “We do not know how these various sources and legal collections, which now comprise the Torah, came together to form a single book.” It is likely that it was redacted by scribes during the Babylonian Exile or shortly thereafter. Basing a doctrine on how the text of the Torah is organized at a detail level when that detail is uncertain is imprudent. Though the Torah may be highly complex in origin, Jesus spoke of the Law and the Prophets. He did not dissect the Law into parts. For New Testament purposes, the Law may be treated as a monolith. It is well worth it to read the introduction to the Torah in the Jewish Study Bible.

Note 2: If the death penalty clause is canceled, what happens to the remainder of the law? No doctrine explaining this has ever been established to round out the Armstrongist view. If the death penalty is required for someone who is a false prophet and the death penalty clause is canceled after Jesus, what happens to the rest of this law? Does the cancellation of the death penalty clause cancel the entire law or does the law live on in a new formulation? How then are false prophets to be legally processed under the Torah? This issue is an important operative part of the Armstrongist doctrine of the Ministry of Death but appears to have never been addressed in Armstrongist literature. This leaves a gaping hole in the Armstrongist implementation of the Law of Moses.

It is worth noting that capital punishment does not exist in the New Testament as a part of church governance. The only foundation for capital punishment as a church action would be the Law of Moses which contains death penalty clauses but the Law of Moses is obsolete. However, there is Divine capital punishment, for instance, in the case of Ananias and Sapphira.

Note 3: Notice carefully that I am not taking an antinomian stance in this article. I believe in laws and morality just as did Paul did. Like other Christians, I believe that the Ten Commandments are in force in the New Testament. But the New Testament Law is the Law of Christ not of Moses. I believe it is important to make a clear and explicit statement about this. If you claim that the Law of Moses is no longer in force, as Paul did, Armstrongists will make the fatuous claim that you are a “law hater” or some similar epithet because they admit of no other law, apparently, than the Law of Moses. There is a solid body of legislation contained in the New Testament and it is the Law of Christ. So here is my pro-law position stated clearly for the record.

 

 


82 comments:

  1. Romans 7. Ministry of death was the law of sin in the flesh. The sin is defined by the transgression of the letter engraved in stone.

    A check at Bible Hub indicates Exodus 35:2 could, possibly?, include the meaning that one who does work on the sabbath will die prematurely.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Will the firefighters, ambulance drivers, & emergency room staff die premature if they are on the clock if you bring them a sick relative on sabbath or if you call 9-11 on sabbath to report a forest fire creeping up your yard or to help after a tornado rips off your roof, or to report a missing kid on sabbath...

      Delete
  2. Thank you Scout for your post.
    Thought provoking.
    That picture of the stoning looked quite realistic.
    ‘The Law’ I believe was also laying the foundation for a civil society however repugnant or primitive it (the Law) may look to ‘modern’ eyes.
    Certainly the Israelites who fled Egypt were heavily influenced by Egyptian society and had to be remodelled to become a functioning state different from the cultures around them.
    Interesting story about Saudi. In their Vision 2030 economic programme their cruelty extends to this day, and lethal force is used against townspeople and villages who object to having to be removed or rehoused to make way for this ‘Vision’.
    The Middle East of the ancient Israelites is alive and ‘well’ even to this day, unfortunately among her neighbours.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Anonymous said:

    Thank you for the thoughtful commentary.
    ''It is enough to say that Armstrongists exclude the Decalogue from the Law of Moses ..''

    There is a statement by Jesus which clearly includes the ten commandments in ''the law''. I don't need to further explain as it's easily enough found.

    The law of Moses includes the ten commandments and those who try to separate them out on the spurious argument that the law of Moses only includes ritualistic and ceremonial matters are not informed and they are working to some agenda to make out they, in their claims of keeping the ten, are special and chosen. That is, it appeals to their vanity.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Anonymous said..

    I found your content informative. Thankyou for the time taken making this post.

    One of the conclusions is that you ' believe that the Ten Commandments are in force in the New Testament. But the New Testament Law is the Law of Christ not of Moses .. ''
    I understand where you're coming from.

    I came to the view some time ago which I think is not unlike yours that the Ten Commandments (the Mosaic Covenant) were given to the people of Israel and no one else;

    The New Testament shows the Law covenant given at Sinai existed only until Christ. It was an interim measure (Matt 11:3; Lk 16:16; Jn 1:17; Romans 5:13, 20; Gal 3:17; 3:25-4:5; Eph 2:15; 2 Cor 3:9-11).

    2 Corinthians speaks of the ‘fading’ splendour of the law covenant now that the ‘greater glory (light)’ of the new covenant in Christ has arrived.

    Hebrews reminds us that the new covenant in principle makes the old covenant obsolete - one that according to the writer was already passing away (Hebrews 8:13 And “By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” The book of Hebrews shows clearly that the old covenant was inferior and had been superseded by ‘better’ realities in Christ (Hebrews 7:19, 26; 8:6; 9:23; 11:6);

    Thus it is the law of Christ that is the New Covenant.

    Confusion will always arise, however, when one says ten commandments are in force in the New Covenant. This is so because I think because the claim will then arise that one must be a sabbath ''keeper'', which Armstrongists say is the test commandment and the sign of the true Church (which they say was/is themselves).

    So, I came to a view that the ''law of Christ'' replaces all of the Old Covenant laws of Moses - one may of course choose to rest on sabbath if that is their faith but this is a different thing to saying that the ten commandments are still in force.

    I don't need to write more for now as I found this following comment in Got Questions to be useful:

    https://www.gotquestions.org/law-of-Christ.html

    regards

    ReplyDelete
  5. OC - law without the Spirit; NC - law with the Spirit

    2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance...

    “What is unsettling here is that Moses’ ministry, though glorious, is associated with death. How can Paul affirm that Moses’ ministry was one of glory and at the same time assert that it “brought death”? The foundation of Paul’s argument appears to be self-contradictory and hence self-defeating. In order to make his case, Paul must support the validity of both of these declarations.

    “In support of his first pronouncement, Paul reminds his readers that the law came “engraved in letters on stone.” This reference to the law as “letter” recalls 3:6, pointing back to the function of the law as that which sets forth God’s covenant stipulations, while as the same time “killing” those who, without the Spirit, cannot fulfill them. The reference to the law being “engraved on stone” points back to the fuller expression “tablets of stone” in 3:3, a description that highlights the law’s divine origin, authority and permanence (cf. Ex 24:12; 31:18; Deut 4:13; 5:22; 9:9-11).

    “But now, in 2 Corinthians 3:7, Paul is specifically referring to the second giving of the law in Exod 32-34, which contains the only other mention in the Pentateuch of the stone nature of the tablets (see Ex 34:1, 4). There the law is described in this way three times in order to underscore that the second giving of the law is like the first. Moreover, 34:1-28 both begins and ends with a reference to the tablets. Just as Moses first received the law within the cloud of God’s glory (cf. 24:15-18), so too Moses’ reception of the second set of stones tablets provides the framework for the renewed manifestation of the glory of God.

    Ex 33:5 For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.

    “In support of his second and pivotal point — namely, that the ministry of the glorious law nevertheless “brought death” — Paul reminds his readers of the result of the law’s coming: “so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory.” Against this backdrop of Exodus 34:29-35, the significance of this statement is readily apparent. Paul is careful to point out that although he people saw God’s glory for short periods of time, most likely to authenticate Moses’ message (cf. 34:34-35), it was impossible for them to “look steadily” (atenisai) into Moses’ face, since doing so would mean their destruction (33:3, 5). Here Paul follows the LXX’s translation of Exodus 34:29-30, 35, where the Hebrew reference to the “radiance” of Moses’ face is rendered as the “glory” (doxa) of God. This translation rightly indicate that more is at stake in their inability to gaze at Moses than simply the condition of their eyes. As a “stiff-necked people,” Israel cannot endure the glory of God (32:9-10, 22; 33:3, 5; 34:9).

    2Co 2:15 For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
    2Co 2:16b To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.

    “Viewed in this light, the switch in terminology from the depiction of the law under the old covenant in 3:6 as a “letter,” because of its function as that which killed, to the depiction of the law in 3:7a as “the ministry that brought death,” is motivated by Paul’s desire to express carefully the exact locus of the comparison between the old and new covenants.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Part 2

    “The issue at stake is not a contrast between the law and the gospel understood as two qualitatively distinct means of salvation. IT IS NEITHER THE LAW NOR THE GOSPEL ITSELF THAT KILLS OR MAKES ALIVE, BUT THE ABSENCE OR PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT (3:6C). APART FROM THE SPIRIT, THE GOSPEL BRINGS DEATH TO THOSE WHOSE HEARTS ARE HARDENED (CF. 2:16; 4:1-6). The issue at stake is the distinct consequences brought about by the respective “ministries” of Moses and Paul. Paul associates Moses’ ministry, not the law as such, with death,” since it was Moses mediation of the glory of God that brought the judgment of God on a rebellious people. This realization leads Paul to his final point concerning the glory of the ministry of death in 3:7” (Scott J. Hafemann, 2 Corinthians, NIVAC, pp. 145-47).

    Dt 5:29a O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always

    “As the expression of God's abiding will, it is not the law per se that kills, or any aspect or perversion of it, but the law without the Spirit, that is, the law as "letter." Devoid of God's Spirit, the law remains to those who encounter it merely a rejected declaration of God's saving purposes and promises, including its corresponding calls for repentance and obedience of faith. Although the law declares God's will, it is powerless to enable people to keep it. Only the Spirit "gives life" by changing the human heart...” ” (Scott J. Hafemann, 2 Corinthians, NIVAC, p.132).

    "The "letter/Spirit" contrast encapsulates the distinction between the role of the law within the Sinai covenant, in which it effects and pronounces judgment on Israel, and its new role within the new covenant in Christ, in which it is kept by the power of the Spirit. The contrast here is not between the law and the Spirit, as if the Spirit now replaces the expression of God's will, but between the law as letter and the Spirit. By choosing the designation "letter" (gramma) Paul brings out the nuance of the law under the old covenant (cf. 3:14) as that which remained expressed merely in writing, acknowledged as God's Word but not kept, rather than being obeyed from the heart by the power of the Spirit. The law without the Spirit remains merely a lifeless "letter" ” (Scott J. Hafemann, 2 Corinthians, NIVAC, pp.132-33).

    Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    “Paul in reading the torah as a narrative has come to see Jesus as the decisive chapter in an otherwise unfinished story. He is the one to whom the torah is directed. But that does not mean a negation of the legislative dimensions of the torah, only a fresh perspective on it.

    1 Cor 9:21 .... (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law) ... (NIV).

    “He can call it “the law of Christ” (cf. 1 Cor 9:20-21). By that he does not mean a different code or document; it is the Mosaic law, but summed up in the command to love and interpreted in the light of Christ” (Charles B. Cousar, Galatians, Int., pp.82).

    ReplyDelete
  7. Scale of values

    Rev 2:18a And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; THESE THINGS SAITH THE SON OF GOD...
    Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
    Rev 2:23 And I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    "Debating the Bible, especially Torah, and coming up with creative readings to address changing times was a mark of faithful Judaism. Jews were not "legalistic" about handling the Law, which is still a common Christian caricature. Even though scripture was God's word and binding, they understood that the Bible - including Torah - was not a rulebook to be followed to the letter at every point" (Peter Enns, The Bible tells me so, p.174).

    "In biblical ancient Israel and contemporary cultures law was not always in the form of hard and fast statues intended to be applied to the letter in formal courts. It seems, rather that judges operated more informally with precedents and paradigms guided by tora (which means guidance of instruction) and their own wisdom, experience and integrity.... The emphasis was on the imperative to do justice and act fairly without bribery or favouritism, but much was left to the discretion and judgment of those responsible (Deut 16:18-20; 167:8-13)..." (Christopher J. H. Wright, Old Testament Ethics for the People of God, p.406).

    "At the polar opposite extreme from the dispensationalist demotion of the Old Testament as regards ethical authority lies the theonomist exaltation of the Old Testament as the permanently valid expression of God's moral will for all societies. The difference could be expressed as its simplest by saying that whereas dispensationalists say that no Old Testament law is morally binding since the coming of Christ, unless specially endorsed and recommanded in the New Testament, theonomist argue that all Old Testament laws are permanently binding, unless explicitly abrogated in the New Testament..." (Christopher J. H. Wright, Old Testament Ethics for the People of God, p.403).

    "The theonomist' preoccupation with enforcing the penalties of Old Testament law for (assumed) equivalent modern offences attaches too much important to the literal (and literary) form of the biblical penalties and fails to reckon with two points. First, in many cases it is probably that the penalty specified was a maximum penalty that could be reduced as the discretion of the elders or judges handling the matter.

    Dt 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
    Dt 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
    Dt 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.

    "This is clear in the law governing the use of the whip as punishment (Deut 25:1-3). Forty strokes was the maximum penalty; the law assumes that fewer than that, at the judges' discretion, would be normal. The fact that in a few specific cases the law prohibits any reduction of penalty (for deliberate murder, Num 35:31; idolatry, Deut 13:8; and false testimony in court, (Deut 19:16-19) suggests that lesser penalties were permissible in other cases.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Part 2

    Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

    Pr 6:32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.
    Pr 6:33 A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away.
    Pr 6:34 For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
    Pr 6:35 He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.

    "Wenham has suggested that the death penalty for adultery may have been allowed to be commuted to monetary compensation, though would-be adulterers should not count on it (Prov 6:32-35).

    "Secondly, what is important about the penal system of Israel's law is the scale of values it reflects rather than the literal prescriptions themselves. As we saw in chapter 9 above, CAREFUL STUDY OF ISRAEL'S PENOLOGY SHOWS THAT THE RANGE OF OFFENCES FOR WHICH THE DEATH PENALTY WAS APPLIED WERE TO DO WITH THE CENTRAL CONCERNS OF PROTECTING THE COVENANT RELATIONSHIP AND THE FAMILY/HOUSEHOLD UNIT WITHIN WHICH THAT RELATIONSHIP WAS PRESERVED AND EXPERIENCED. The graduations of penalties also shows a clear priority of human life over property, of need over rights, and other priorities that challenge the sometimes distorted values of our modern judicial systems. It is certainly possible to set the scale of moral values reflected in Israel's penalties over against those of our own society and then to observe our shortcomings and suggest reforms in order to bring our own system of law and justice more in line with biblical priorities. But this need not take the form, as it does in theonomists agendas, of seeking to reimpose Old Testament penalties as they stand. This point seems to be reinforced theologically by the fact that in the New Testament it appears that neither Jesus nor Paul wanted to apply the full weight of the Old Testament penal system, for adultery or for false teaching" (Christopher J. H. Wright, Old Testament Ethics for the People of God, pp.406-07).

    ReplyDelete
  9. The Wahhabi that dominate Saudi Arabia are particularly puritanical. I got a little chuckle out of George W Bush's SOTU one year (was it 2003?) where he was going on and on about how the Taliban of Afghanistan were so strict with the populace and many of the examples he gave were also practiced by the Saudis.

    ReplyDelete
  10. The ten commandments are hard wired into the human brain, so that settles the matter for me. People are still morally worthy of death for crimes such as murder, kidnapping and slavery, but the big problem is that such judgments are not consistently and impartially applied. It's unjust for them to be applied to ordinary people but not to the politically favored or those in power. After all, they killed Christ but set Barabbas free. Which is why Joseph spared Mary from storming when she was pregnant with the Christ child.
    Many of us have witnessed or heard of such partially in ACOG-land.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Are they? Seem to be a lotta graven images around from time immemorial...

      Delete
  11. Anonymous 9:37 wrote, “Confusion will always arise, however, when one says ten commandments are in force in the New Covenant.”

    Good point. This does require some further explanation. For instance, Christianity does not recognize the Sabbath as a physical seventh day. It recognizes Jesus as our Rest. So, the Fourth Commandment is still in force but it has been transformed in the New Testament. The other 9 commandments are mentioned in various places in the NT. And if there were not explicitly called out, they would be carried forward under the NT force of “love God and love your neighbor.” Most Christian churches recognize that the moral intent of the Torah is still in force, if not the letter.

    Armstrongists recognize moral intent even though their commitment to a seventh-day Sabbath makes them want to deny it. Hoeh claims that the Decalogue is God’s eternal moral law and that it was established at the creation. Armstrongists do not recognize the timelessness of God so you have to work out what they mean by “eternal.” They mean from the creation forward into eternity – eternity as a sequence of moments.. In Christianity, the eternal moral law is something that reflects God’s nature without respect to time. For Armstrongists, the eternal moral law is something that is creation bound. There can’t be a seventh-day unless there is an ordered Cosmos in place.

    But if you raise the question, to an Armstrongist, what happens to the law against adultery when there is no longer human life and marriage as we know it, they will be able to tell you that the letter of that law will no longer be relevant but the moral force of it will be. They recognize that there is a difference between moral intent and physical implementation but they balk at applying that to the Sabbath, for instance.

    Scout


    ReplyDelete
  12. Part 2 cited, "IT IS NEITHER THE LAW NOR THE GOSPEL ITSELF THAT KILLS OR MAKES ALIVE, BUT THE ABSENCE OR PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT (3:6C)."

    If it were not for your HWA capitals, I might have passed on this one. In fact, it is incorrect. I disagree with Hafemann on this point. He is once again seeing the Law of Moses not as the charter for an ancient theocracy but as a modern denominational observance.

    In fact, the Law of Moses kills whether the Holy Spirit is available or not. As I have pointed out, there are many places in the Law of Moses where the death penalty is prescribed. You join this to the fact that the Holy Spirit extends support but does not guarantee perfection and you have a formula for some people being executed. The Law of Moses itself has built into it an earthly capital punishment requirement. It is the operative ministry of death. And the attempt to denature the Law of Moses as Meredith has done in Armstrongist theology does not work. This is why that not only was the Holy Spirit made available but the Law was changed. Two moments of change – not one.

    Armstrongists accept only one moment of change. Now the Holy Spirit is available and perfection under the Law of Moses (now more stringent) is achievable. So, they are all working assiduously to qualify for the Kingdom. Lots of luck with that one.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  13. "what happens to the law against adultery when there is no longer human life and marriage as we know it,.."

    God often calls departing from His ways adultery.

    ReplyDelete
  14. High-handed sin

    Before looking at sins of ignorance and presumption, the stoning of the man that gathered sticks on the Sabbath may also be considered a “new beginning warning”:

    Lev 10:1 And NADAB AND ABIHU, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
    Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
    Lev 10:3 Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I WILL BE SANCTIFIED IN THEM THAT COME NIGH ME, AND BEFORE ALL THE PEOPLE I WILL BE GLORIFIED. And Aaron held his peace.
    Lev 10:4 And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp.
    Lev 10:5 SO THEY WENT NEAR, AND CARRIED THEM IN THEIR COATS OUT OF THE CAMP; as Moses had said.

    Ac 5:1 But a certain man named ANANIAS, WITH SAPPHIRA his wife, sold a possession,
    Ac 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
    Ac 5:4b why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    Ac 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: AND GREAT FEAR CAME ON ALL THEM THAT HEARD THESE THINGS.
    Ac 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, AND CARRIED HIM OUT, AND BURIED HIM.
    Ac 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, CARRYING HER FORTH, BURIED HER by her husband.
    Ac 5:11 AND GREAT FEAR CAME UPON ALL THE CHURCH, AND UPON AS MANY AS HEARD THESE THINGS.

    “Unintentional Sin verse Defiant Sin (15:22-31)

    Nu 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

    Nu 15:30 But the soul that doeth aught presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
    Nu 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

    Nu 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

    “...torah (nomos, law) is composed of both narrative and legal code, never exclusively the one or the other” (James A. Sanders, Torah and Paul, p.138)).

    “The goal of this chapter “is to contrast unintentional and defiant sins. The former may be forgiven by means of sacrificial atonement; the latter may not. This contrast is especially important following the defiant sin of Numbers 14, and the overall effect is to warn, “The only type of sin you should ever commit is that done completely by mistake!” Any other type of sin is already one step close to rebellious apostasy” (Jay Sklar, Numbers, The Story of the Bible Commentary, pp.213-14).

    Note:

    "The books of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers identify three general categories of sin: those committed by mistake (‘unintentional sins'), those that are clear signs of rebellion (‘high-handed sins'), and those that appear to fall between (‘intentional but not high-handed sins')" (Jay Sklar, Leviticus, TOTC, p.42).

    Lev 4:2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘When anyone sins unintentionally [sagag] and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD'S commands— (NIV).

    “The sense of the verb sagag will be adequately caught if in all the verses concerning here in Leviticus 4-5 [Heb], the phrase “sin unintentionally” is rendered by “goes astray in sin” or “does wrong” or the like.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Part 2
    “In Numbers 15:22-29 the translation “wrong” or “wrongly” or “in error” will better replace “unintentional or “unintentionally”... “Unintentional” seems better to fit sagag and its cognates only in the manslaughter passages (Num 35:11-22; Josh 20:3-5), and even there “inadvertently” or “by mistake” would actually fit better” (R. Laird Harris, Leviticus, EBC, Vol.2, pp.547-48).

    Num 15:30 And the person who doth aught with a high hand [beyad] ... Jehovah he is reviling, and that person hath been cut off from the midst of his people; (YLT).

    1 Ki 11:26 And Jeroboam son of Nebat, an ... servant to Solomon, he also lifteth up a hand [wayyarem yad] against the king;
    1 Ki 11:17a and this is the thing for which he lifted up a hand [herim yad] against the king

    1Ki 11:30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:
    1Ki 11:31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee: (YLT).

    1 Ki 11:40a And Solomon seeketh to put Jeroboam to death...

    “The action of Ahijah persuades Jeroboam to initiate an insurrection against Solomon’s autocracy, but it gains nothing more than exile in Egypt (11:40). God will grant Jeroboam’s his desire to rule (v. 37), but it will not happen because of his own initiative, it is the work of the prophet to stir people to action in order that God’s purposes may be accomplished through them in his time” (August H. Konkel, 1 & 2 Kings, NIVAC, p.223).

    Num 15:30 But the person who sins defiantly, whether a native or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD. That person shall be cut off from among his people. (BSB).

    “The text now describes what to do when a person sins “defiantly” (Num 15:30-31), or, more woodenly, sins “with an uplifted hand,” a phrase used elsewhere to describe raising one’ hand in defiant rebellion against a human king (rendered “rebelled against” twice in 1 Kgs 11:26-27a). When done against the Lord, the heavenly King, this refers to apostate rebellion; the person has not simply sinned but completely rejected faith in the Lord through disobedient action, “blaspheming the Lord” and utter “despising” his word (Num 15:30-31). Such a person must be “cut off” (v.31), a phrase referring to exile or even death. For unintentional sin, the Lord guarantees an automatic means of forgiveness: sacrifice. [But for important qualifications, see the end of the chapter: Live the Story: Why Does Grace not Make Sin Safe?]. But for apostasy, no such automatic means is guaranteed. Kings do not typically encourage treason by providing an automatic way of escape from it.

    “The Penalty for Defiant Sin Illustrated (15:32-36)

    “Coming immediately after a description of defiant sin, this story provides an illustration of it. It begins with the Israelites finding a man gathering wood on the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath was foundational to Israelite faith since the Sabbath was the sign of the Sinai covenant. To fail to keep it was to deny the covenant relationship and the Lord of that relationship (Exod 31:12-17), like ripping off and trampling a wedding ring — the sign of covenant relationship with a spouse — only much more serious, since this was an act of treason against the very King of heaven. Not surprisingly, other laws state that those breaking the Sabbath face the penalty usually given to the treasonous: death (Exod 31:14-15).

    Nu 15:34 AND THEY PUT HIM IN WARD, BECAUSE IT WAS NOT DECLARED WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO HIM.
    Nu 15:35a AND THE LORD SAID UNTO MOSES,

    “In this instance, however, the Israelites are unsure what to do and approach the Lord for legal direction (Num 15:34). [The same happens in Lev 24:10-23; Num 9:6-14; 27:1-11; 36:1-9].

    ReplyDelete
  16. Part 3

    “Perhaps their uncertainty is because earlier laws explicitly forbid building a fire on the Sabbath (Exod 35:3) but not collecting sticks, making them unsure if the Sabbath had been broken. Or perhaps they understood that the death penalty to function like a maximum sentence but also thought that lesser sentences might be allowed and thus asked how to proceed in this instance.

    “In either case, the Lord’s response is clear: this man must be put to death. The Lord knew the act was not “unintentional” sin (Num 15:27-29) but “defiant” sin, a rebellious “blaspheming of the Lord” and “despising his word” (vv. 30-31). In short, this man was not simply collecting wood; he “was committing an act of rank apostasy, denying the Lord’s covenant as well as profaning that which he had set apart as holy”. This was intentional treason and the penalty for the treasonous is applied: this man had chose his own fate.

    “Executions were performed outside the camp (cf. Lev 24:23), perhaps to ensure the ritually defining dead body (Num 19:11) did not pollute the camp. Bringing the man “outside the camp” would also have been a fitting picture; the one who had rejected the Lord was now forcibly removed from the Lord’s people. That the Israelites did just as “the Lord commanded Moses” (15:36) is a welcome note of obedience after the rebellion of Numbers 14" (Jay Sklar, Numbers, The Story of the Bible Commentary, pp. 214-16).

    “Why Does Grace Not Make Sin Safe?

    “While the Lord is exceedingly gracious, this does not mean that it is safe to sin. This passage makes this clear by stating that sacrificial atonement is available for unintentional sin (Num 15:22-29) but not for “defiant” sin (vv. 30-31), that is, completely rejecting the Lord, turning our back on him, and going our own way. The wood gatherer is a tragic example of this (vv. 32-36); those who turn their back on the Lord experience the most fearful thing possible: the Lord turning his back on them.

    Lev 6:2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
    Lev 6:3 Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:

    “Three points may be made by way of clarification. First, although not mentioned here, there is a third category of sin that falls in between unintentional and defiant sins. Leviticus gives example of sins that are not unintentional and yet sacrificial atonement can be made for them, meaning that are not in the “defiant” category (Lev 5:1, 5:-6; 6:1-7). Just what qualifies a sin for this category is debated, but the category exists. [“... they differ from defiant sins in that our response to them is one of repentance and turning back to the Lord instead of turning away from him in hardened rebellion” (Sklar, Leviticus, [ZECOT], 20m47]. So why does Numbers 15not mention it? Given the context of defiant sins in Numbers 14, the simplest explanation is perhaps that intentional sins, of whatever type, must be avoided at all costs. After all, it is not the person who sins by mistake that is in danger of apostasy but the person who sins intentionally; the step between intentional sin and defiant sin is very short, very slippery, and very easy to make. This chapter therefore leaves the middle category out in order to underscore: “What you do, do not sin intentionally; a avoid intentional sin of whatever type as though your life depends on it — because it does!” We do well to ask, “is this our perspective when it comes to sin? Do we view it as a mortal enemy and do all we can to fight it, or do we view it simply as a spiritual inconvenience that we might need to pay a bit more attention to?”

    ReplyDelete
  17. Part 4

    Nu 14:19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
    Nu 14:20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

    “Second, forgiveness for defiant sin was still possible, as the previous chapter makes clear (Num 14:11-35). Instead of sacrificial atonement, however, a mediator interceded on the people’s behalf, and even when forgiveness was granted, the resulting discipline could still be severe: the first generation of Israelites will die outside the promised land, not inside it.

    “This leads naturally to the third point: Jesus’ sacrifice is so great that it can atone for any category of sin, and yet the New Testament still repeats dire warnings against committing defiant sin. How does this work? Because Jesus’ sacrifice is so powerful, it can clean any sin, no matter how deep the stain (Heb 10:14-22). To switch the metaphor, he is a priestly mediator who “always lives to intercede for [us]” (7:25). This means we can come to him with bold confidence for forgiveness and cleansing of our sin, no matter how dark and deep! But if we do not — if we reject him, turning our backs and walking way — then we have rejected our only hope of forgiveness. This explains the warnings of places like Hebrew 10:

    If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot... It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (vv. 26-29a, 31)

    “This is sobering language; many moderns will not feel comfortable with it, but our discomfort does not lessen its truth. If the consequences for treason against earthly rulers results in grave penalty, how much more for treason against the king of heaven” (Jay Sklar, Numbers, The Story of the Bible Commentary, pp. 218-19).

    ReplyDelete
  18. Scout

    Another great thought provoking presentation. You must have found those mysterious Armstrong articles you were searching for.

    2 constants I see in Scripture:

    1. Sin is the transgression of the law
    (1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, 7:7), AND


    2. The wages of sin is death
    (Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 5:12, 6:21-23, Hebrews 10:28).

    The only question is, WHO is God's designate to carry out and bear the punishment?

    A whole lot of theology to consider here!

    ReplyDelete
  19. The Law of Moses asserts a number of laws which require the death penalty. The following law is a canonical example:

    “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy Sabbath of solemn rest to the Lord; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire in all your dwellings on the Sabbath day.” (Exodus 35:2)

    It was the function of the Mosaic theocracy to execute people who broke certain laws (See Wikipedia article titled “List of capital crimes in the Torah”). This, or course, required a judicial infrastructure. Arraignment had to happen, witnesses had to testify and judgment had to be passed down. And, finally, a group of citizens had to execute that penalty. The methodology of choice was stoning. But, historically, the death penalty was seldom invoked by the Sanhedrin and capital punishment imposed by the Jewish Courts was terminated in the First Century by the Romans.

    Jesus was involved in a death penalty case during his ministry. It involved a group of scribes and Pharisees who brought a woman implicated in adultery before Jesus. They were hoping Jesus would transgress the Law of Moses by denying the execution. This account is found in John 7:53–8:11. His decision in the case underlined the great difficulty there is in judging in a theocracy where sinful human beings are making the judgments. It is notable that Jesus did not use this occasion to cancel the death penalties contained in the Law of Moses. All of the people involved in this case were under the Law of Moses. This does give us an insight into what God thinks about the juridical system of ancient Israel that applied the Old Covenant laws: “Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

    In the Old Testament, the death penalty laws were not specified in a separate text block appended to the Law of Moses. The death penalty laws are scattered throughout the Mosaic legislation. So, the penalties are not set up to be easily stripped out and discarded from the Biblical text. The organization of the Mosaic legislation, then, does not anticipate a renunciation of the death penalties at some post-Sinai date. As we would say in modern technocratic language, the Biblical death penalty texts are not modular but integrated. This points to the fact that the scribes and editors of the Hebrew Bible saw the Torah as a whole rather than a collection of sub-parts.

    The Law of Moses was designed to be a national law for ancient Israel. Governance requires laws and penalties for the preservation of social order. Hence, the death penalties were integrated textually in the written Law of Moses and in practice in ancient Israelite society.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  20. To most, the idea that a church would be enforcing the death penalty for errant congregants taxes belief. But this is not so implausible if the church believes that the Law of Moses is still in force and written upon the hearts of its members. As we have seen, the death penalty requirements found in some Torahic Laws are a legitimate part of the Law of Moses and are a part of what Jesus exemplified in Matthew 5:17-18. The question then becomes, “Why haven’t Armstrongists implemented the death penalty in their congregations along with the other requirements of the Law of Moses they have elected to follow?”

    If the theological foundation is there, do Armstrongists have the heart for it? I think they do. There were many Armstrongists, when I was a member of the denomination, who believed that the Government of the United States should have exterminated the Native Americans because they held the mistaken belief that the British colonists were Israelites and the Native Americans were Canaanites. So, for these people, the death penalty is not issue – there is only a question of how it would be implemented in a modern context.

    Further, there are many incidents where members are disfellowshipped. I have heard ministers express very unsympathetic sentiments toward those who have been disfellowshipped. Yet, in some cases the disfellowshipping would, by Armstrongist standards, result in the person who has been cast out being consigned to annihilation in Gehenna fire. So, I believe that within the Armstrongist ministry, there is the heart for the death penalty and this is already manifested in the practice of disfellowshipping.

    I know this view is difficult to accept but it is a direct and exegetically supported consequence of believing that the Law of Moses still demands adherence by Christians. Exodus 35:2, then, casts a different and darker light on Sabbath keeping. Not only must the Sabbath be kept but it must be kept up to a prescribed standard and if the standard is not met, the violator should be executed. If this were thoroughly understood, maybe those who argue so fervently in favor of the Law of Moses and the Sabbath would pause to reconsider their position.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  21. The Hebrew word for "put" in the phrase "shall be put to death" is not in almost all verses with that phrase in the KJV, including Ex 35:2. An exception is Jer 18:21.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Is it good form to parse the Law into various parts without clear exegesis? I don’t think so. While the Torah has texture and structure, it remains a single ideology. Herman Hoeh parsed out the Decalogue and said that the term Law of Moses did not include the Ten. Meredith parsed out a collection of laws that contained death penalties and said they were a different package and could magically vanish. It is true that the Torah is an accumulation of pericopes. And it is likely that studious scribes in Babylonian Exile packed it all together into a single snowball. It may have all originated with Moses, the ur-author, but somewhere along the way it had been divided up into multiple lines of development. So, the Torah is a composite. See the Documentary Hypothesis. But it is treated as a whole, a unary ideology, in the New Testament. Both Jesus and Paul simply call it The Law.


    The paramount theological consideration for Armstrongists and some other apocalyptic Millerites is to defend the observation of the seventh-day Sabbath as a requirement for salvation. If this is lost, Armstrongism loses its center-piece and its principal distinctive is gone. One strategy for mounting this defense is to decompose the actual Law of Moses into sub-parts and designate one of the sub-parts as the Law of Moses. Sleight of hand. If the actual Law of Moses is so recast, then that sub-part that supports the Sabbath can be isolated and placed safely beyond the reach of New Testament theology by claiming it is not a part of the Law of Moses. This is a teleological strategy that holds the Sabbath sacrosanct and interprets the Bible around that central fact.

    So where is the “Doctrine of the Decomposition of the Law of Moses” in Armstrongist theology? This is a doctrine that would require careful exegesis and would form the principle on which Armstrongism pivots in implementing the modern observance of the Torah. It cannot be mere groundless assertion. In fact, there is no such extant doctrine but there are some Armstrongist articles that assert this idea though nothing that really exegetes it. So, it must be thought of as a theory. And there is a large array of components that could comprise the Law of Moses under this theory: commandments, laws, statutes, judgments, rituals, decrees, civil laws, ceremonial laws, customs, law code, sacrifices and ordinances (See Note 1 below). These diverse legal prescriptions are not sorted in the Biblical text as if they were issued by Moses in categories. Put the word “statute” (Hebrew, choq) into a search engine and you will find it scattered throughout the Torah. All this legal complexity should be unified in a single doctrine for modern denominational application.

    But if you are an Armstrongist, don’t think about adopting a policy of benign neglect towards all this complexity. Roderick C. Meredith made an ominous and broadly inclusive statement, “Remember, (Mat 5:17-20) that even the least commandment is still very much in force.” Not exactly. Some parts of the Law of Moses have been theologically elided in the Armstrongist interpretation but not as much as Armstrongists would think. Since Armstrongists declare that keeping the law is a requirement for salvation, it is easy to see that precise clarity on what is in force and what is not is of extraordinary importance and its explanation should be a foundational denominational document, always prominently displayed – 613 laws in formidable array with their modern Armstrongist implementations noted. But that document does not exist and has never been published – that I know of.

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  23. (Continuation)

    In spite of the Armstrongist attempts to decompose the Law of Moses, the Law is one cohesive unit – a monolith. There is no “divide and conquer.” It stands as a singularity and falls as a singularity. In the Pentateuch, there is no evidence in the historical account or in the organization of the text that the sacrifices and the death penalty clauses were added as a second phase. And Jesus spoke of the Law and the Prophets. Nowhere did he decompose the Law. And in Luke’s account in Acts 15, when the Circumcision Party contended that the Law of Moses must be kept in order to achieve salvation, the Party did not decompose the Law of Moses and focus just on the sub-part containing the sacrifices. And when Paul used the allegory of Sarah and Hagar in Galatians 4, he does not decompose the Law but considers it as a whole. When Paul states that the Law was added 430 years later, he does not decompose the law and state that the added piece is comprised only of the sacrifices and the Ministry of Death. And to seal the whole thing up, Paul states in Galatians 5:3 that the Law is a unit, a monolith – you can’t keep just select parts of it. Either you are keeping all of the Law of Moses, including circumcision and the sacrifices, or you are not keeping any of it.

    And scattered throughout the Law of Moses is a collection of death penalty clauses designated by Armstrongists as the Ministry of Death.

    Amen.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  24. There's no evidence of a change from.... remember the sabbath day .....to remember the sabbath rest in Christ.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous 4:35

    I cannot now take on this issue of whether the Sabbath has been transformed within the framework of the topic of the Ministry of Death. But we can briefly examine the rudiments of the topic.

    It would not be good form for us to let you choose just one of the laws of Moses and claim that it must be kept unchanged. Paul stated that the Law of Moses must be kept as a complete package (Galatians 5:3). Your observation of the Sabbath and few other select laws is like the man Paul refers to - a debtor to do the whole law.

    Before we consider the exegesis of Jesus as the Rest for the church, tell us how you keep the entire law, not only the Sabbath. When you or anyone in you family has a skin rash, do they shout "Unclean!" to anyone who approaches them. Once you establish that you keep the whole law, we can then continue to speak of the Sabbath in particular. Otherwise, your incompete conformance to the law makes the Sabbath question moot.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  26. One of my favorite quotes is by the late Dr. Desmond Ford, who said "Abuse does not cancel out use. A knife can cut an apple and a throat. The law is forever the standard of righteousness but never a method of righteousness".

    The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says the same thing.
    " The law remains as a rule of life for the believer, thus it is not abrogated. It remains as the STANDARD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. The man in Christ sees the law embodied in Christ, and the imitation of Christ involves obedience to the law, and fulfills the law, not simply as a standard outside, but as a living principle within. The function of the law is not to give life but to guide life", (ISBE, 1936, vol.3, pg.1849-50).

    Your (Scout) debtor quotes are against using the law as a means of achieving justification/ salvation, (see again Galatians 5:1-4, Acts 15:1).

    You are correct, that if the law is to be the method of salvation, one must keep it ALL (James 2). But that's true with any title for the law you use.

    The law is good if used lawfully. Whether you call it the law of God, of Moses, of Christ, or Lonnie's standard of Love, if you are keeping it as a path to salvation you are missing the boat.

    Jimmy Swaggart takes it a step further. If you use a law of your own making, or are trying to fast, pray or study your way out of sin thus bypassing Jesus Christ, you too are fallen from grace.

    Scout, we know you are fighting a particular ARMSTRONG heresy. We get it. But "abuse doesn't cancel out use", whether it be the "law" or fasting!


    ReplyDelete
  27. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God - ICor 7:19.

    It does look like Paul did some parsing of the law of Moses.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous 9:06

    Paul was saying in this passage as a paraphrase:

    "The physical attribute of circumcision is unimportant. Do not be concerned about the fact that you do not have a foreskin. What is important is keeping the commandments (The Law of Christ: The Sermon on the Mount and other principles, first taught orally and later documented in the New Testament writings.)"

    Elsewhere in the NT, Paul explains that circumcision is now of the heart. That is why he can say above that circumcision is unimportant. If the Law of Moses were still in effect an had to be kept as a package, Paul could not make this statement about physical circumcision.

    I do not see any parsing going on here. The letter of the Law of Moses is gone but its moral force remains. Perhaps, you could explain your statement further if I have not understood.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  29. BP8 6:35

    I would agree with you. If someone preaches that the keeping of the Law of Moses is on the critical path to salvation, that mistaken and heretical idea does not render the Law of Moses to be of no value. Though the letter has been abrogated the moral force remains. The moral force behind circumcision is a changed heart. The moral force behind the Sabbath is that we rest from sin in Christ. (The physical seventh-day Sabbath is metaphor for or foreshadowing of the reality of Jesus.) The letter of the law no longer has any gravitas. It is not a standard of righteousness. Or Pauline Theology must be denied and the NT cast in the trash barrel.

    What Miller Jones points out is that the moral force behind the entire Mosaic package is about love. Paul says the letter kills. (Some people naively think they are keeping the Law of Moses in its full legislative array at the performance level that God expects and they are not. Jesus told the Pharisees they were not keeping the Law and the Pharisees were way ahead of any present-day Armstrongists who are trying to qualify for the Kingdom through law keeping.) In this principle, Paul and Jones are on the same page.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  30. How would you know the moral force of the law without the letter of the law - Rom 7:6-7?

    ReplyDelete
  31. “Either you are keeping all of the Law of Moses, including circumcision and the sacrifices, or you are not keeping any of it.”

    When the Jews were in the Babylonian captivity they weren’t “keeping” the “sacrifices”. But when they returned sacrifices were resumed - the type. After the end-time Babylonian captivity, when the Jews return a temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will resume - the antitype.

    Dt 12:11 Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:

    Eze 20:40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.

    (1) Sacrifices are required to be offered at the place of God’s choosing out of the tribes of Israel:

    “The Deuteronomistic historians acknowledged the fulfillment of the place formula in a succession of locations: Shechem, Shiloh, Bethel, and ultimately Jerusalem” (Daniel I. Block, Deuteronomy, NIVAC, p.311).

    Ps 78:67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:
    Ps 78:68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

    Under the Temple dispensation of the OC, mount Zion was the place where sacrifices were offered. In the Temple dispensation of the NC, once again, God’s “holy mountain” will be the place where sacrifices will be offered.

    Lev 5:10b and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him. (AV).
    Lev 14:20b and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and he shall be clean.

    Note: The NC sacrificial system, like the OC sacrificial system, is for the “purifying of the flesh” (Heb 9:13).

    "The problem with the Levitical sacrifices was that "it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" (10:4); but neither had the law of Moses promised that the sacrifices would have had that kind of efficacy" (Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., The Promise-Plan of God, p.365).

    In the NC, with God dwelling in the midst of His people - Israelites and Gentiles (Zec 2:10-11) - sacrifices will be required for atonement and fellowship.

    (2) Sacrifices are only to be offered by Levitical priests

    Dt 21:5a And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him,

    Eze 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok ... they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:

    Zadok was the first high priest in the First Temple; after the return from captivity his descendant, Joshua was the first high priest in the Second Temple; in the return from the end-time captivity the descendants of Zadok will minister in the Messianic Temple.

    Eze 43:12a This is the law of the house;

    “Biblical tradition regards Moses as the mediator of Israel's divine constitution, the Torah; it recognizes no other legislator - except Ezekiel...

    "Ezekiel introduces rigor into the separation and gradations of areas in the sanctuary precincts; moreover, his requirements are more stringent than those of the Pentateuch...

    "Ezekiel's program is a revision - and up-dating and a rectification - of selected topics of existent priestly legislation and practice very similar to, if not identical with, that of the Pentateuch..." (Moshe Greenberg, "The Design and Themes of Ezekiel's Program of Restoration," pp.233-35).

    ReplyDelete
  32. Part 2

    Ne 10:29 ... to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

    In the Messianic Age there will be ‘changes’ to God’s law. For example:

    Eze 45:21a In the first month on the fourteenth day you are to observe the Passover
    Eze 45:22 On that day the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.

    “... the focus of the celebration has changed. On the day of the Passover, the prince is to provide for himself and the people a bull for a purification offering (hatta't).This shift parallels the change in the nature of the sacrificial victims. Whereas the function of the original Passover was apotropaic, to ward off Yahweh's lethal actions, and subsequent celebrations provided annual reminders of the original event, in the Ezekielian ordinance the memorial purposes of the Passover are overshadowed by the purgative concern. Thus, while the Passover, the most fundamental of all Israelite celebrations, is retained in Ezekiel's new religions order, its nature and significance has been changed..." (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-28, NICOT, p.666).

    The “original” passover sacrifice was a “sacrifice of peace-offerings” (zebah selamim) cp. Lev 3:1). The sacrificial animal was either a lamb of goat, which was eaten. In the future passover the sacrificial animal is a bull which can’t be eaten.

    Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
    Dt 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

    "The law is referred to here (and this is the very point which has been overlooked), not according to its accidental and temporary form, but according to its essential character, as expressive of the holiness of God, just as in Matt. 5:17... The laws, which were afterwards given in the plains of Moab, are also included in the expression "in Horeb." For they were merely a continuation and further development; the foundation was fully laid at Sinai" (E.W. Hengstenberg, Christology of the Old Testament, Vol.4, pp.190-91).

    “... Israel's law would never cease to be known as the law of Moses. Rightly so: for the principles laid down in his time, before the settlement in Canaan, remained the principles of Israel's law for all centuries to come" (F.F. Bruce, Israel and the Nations - The History of Israel from the Exodus to the Fall of the Second Temple, pp.3-4).

    It is suggested that, though referred to as the “Ezekialian Torah, it is included in the Law of Moses as a “continuation and further development” of the law of God, just as is the “law of Christ” — the Mosaic law ... summed up in the command to love and interpreted in the light of Christ” (Charles B. Cousar, Galatians, Int., pp.82); or as David Wilbur puts it “... “law of Christ” is most appropriately understood to refer to the law of Moses as it is taught and exemplified by Christ”.

    Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

    1 Cor 9:21c being not without law to God,
    1 Cor 9:21d but under the law to Christ

    1 Cor 9:21c and 9:21d are a synonymous parallelism:

    "... the nature of Hebrew poetry always involves some form of parallelism and the one common form is that called synonymous parallelism (where the second line repeats or reinforces the sense of the first line). In this type of parallelism, then, the two lines together express the poet's meaning; and the second line is not trying to say some new or different thing" (Gordon D. Fee & Douglas Stuart, How to Read the Bible for all its Worth, p.189).

    Yes Scout, I know you disagree.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Part 3

    “Law and the Lord went together. Law is congenial to God and it must be to his people.

    “The Laws of God

    Mal 2:7a For the priest's lips should keep knowledge,
    Mal 2:7b and they should seek the law at his mouth:

    “It should not surprise us, then, that the actual laws given in the Old Testament are often associated with God. The great word for “law” in the Old Testament is torah. Modern scholars usually see the fundamental idea conveyed by the word as ‘instruction’. They may well be right, all the more so as the term is used of the instruction the priests give. Thus Malachi lays it down that ‘the lips of the priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction’ (Mal 2:7). Again we read, ‘the teaching of the law by the priest will not be lost, nor will the counsel of the wise, nor the word from the prophets’ (Je 18:18). But torah is frequently used of ‘law’ in our sense of the term, as when we read, ‘The same law applies to the native-born nd to the alien living among you’ (Ex 12:49).

    Hos 4:6b because thou hast rejected knowledge,
    hos 4:6d seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God,

    “The interesting thing for our present inquiry is that either way torah is constantly associated with the Lord. It is said to be the ‘the law of Yahweh’ or ‘his law’ or, if God is speaking, ‘my law’. In prayer one may say ‘thy law’. Sixteen times we read of the ‘the law of Moses’ which amounts to much the same thing. No-one held that Moses originated the law; he simply passed on what God said to him (e.g. Ex 20:1-17). As for the priestly torah, this too came from God, as we see from the word in Hosea, “because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the torah of your God...’ (Ho 4:6). Constantly torah is associated with God. The word occurs 220 times in the Old Testament and there seems to be more than seventeen occasions when it is clear that it is not God’s torah that is in mind.

    “This phenomenon is repeated with other law words. There are a couple of words for ‘statute’; hoq, which is linked with the Lord in eighty-seven of its 127 occurrences, and huqqah which is so linked in no less than ninety-six cases out of one hundred and four. The term mishpat is the usual term for ‘judgment’, but it may also be used in the same sense ‘law’; it is usually in the plural when used in this sense. The word is linked with Yahweh about 180 times and its agrees with this that the participle of the corresponding verb is used to refer to God as ‘Judge’. In this or in some other way the verb is used of God sixty times.

    Ps 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

    “The list could be continued with other law terms, but there is scarcely the need. Enough has been cited to show that the Old Testament writers did not regard law as a burdensome requirement, devised by human ingenuity to make life difficult. Rather it was the wise provision of a loving God to ensure that his people had guidance they needed to enable them to live well-adjusted lives, lives pleasing to God and which fulfilled the best purposes for men” (Leon Morris, The Atonement - Its Meaning and Significance, pp.181-82).

    ReplyDelete
  34. Sometime after posting the above I had a look at Simon J. Kistemaker’s comment on 1 Cor 9:21. He wrote and quoted this:

    “If the believer is within Christ’s law, at the same time he is within God’s law and obeys his will. Because Christ mediates God’s law, Paul must abide by the constraints of that law in the setting of Christ’s covenant. “Whatever God demands of him as a new-covenant believer, a Christian, binds him: he cannot step outside those constrains. There is a rigid limit to his flexibility as he seeks to win the lost from different cultural and religious groups; he must not do anything that is forbidden to the Christian, and he must do everything mandated of the Christian. He is not free from God’s law; he is under Christ’s law” [D. A. Carson, The Cross and the Christian Ministry [Leadership Lessons from 1 Corinthians]... pp.119-20]” 1 Corinthians, NTC, p.308).

    When I added Donald Carson to my to buy list I noticed a book that I had intended to buy a while back but the cost of the hardback had put the brakes on it. The book was entitled: “Galatians: A Torah-Based Commentary in First-Century Hebraic Context” by Avi Ben Mordechai.

    So I then did a search to see if there was a cheaper price available and I came across the video “Galatians Intro Part 1” by Avi Ben Mordechai — youtube.com/watch?v=0AKYNYpwgIw — well worth viewing though one may not agree with all he says.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous 5:41 wrote, "How would you know the moral force of the law without the letter of the law"

    You would not have a law defined at all if there were no letter. I have a feeling the question you are asking is how can you practice the moral force of the law without practicing the letter. Circumcision is the canonical example. Circumcision is now a changed heart. The letter, the actual physical act of circumsion, became a literary concept - a metaphor. The English language is rich in metaphor. Few people have an issue with this. That the Sabbath is no longer a physical, seventh day and is now rest in Christ is easily grasped. Jesus cast many shadows and the Sabbath was one of them. The shadow is insubstantial but the solid body that cast the shadow is Jesus. Paul uses the metaphor of a person casting a shadow to characterize Jesus' relationship with the Law of Moses.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  36. Part 1 wrote, "After the end-time Babylonian captivity, when the Jews return a temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will resume - the antitype."

    You have written too much for me really to respond to without several days of research and writing. Let me respond to the statement above, however,, with which I disagree.

    While it is possible that sacrifices will resume by some inapparent calculus, I think not. When one understands the superseded role of sacrifices as a shadow of Jesus, it is hard to find a new role for them in the eschaton. Ezekiel was a prophet. Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. They were all a shadow of him. They pointed to him. They have no non-contingent existence. In this context, I believe prophecies that mention sacrifices in the OT are metaphorical. They were a historical metaphor for the future salvific force of Jesus. The fact that they are presented in some detail in their original context does not make them any less a metaphor. Finally, a new human-built, physical temple, a requirement for physical sacrifices, is not mentioned in the Book of Revelation. Instead, John of Patmos describes God as the future Temple. Ezekiel's sacrifices and temple, the Sabbath and circumcision are all similar metaphors for Jesus the Anointed.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  37. Scout.
    I think most of us agree with you concerning the moral force and spirit of the law. The constant debate as I see it is usually over "terminology". What do we call this moral force and what does it consist of?

    Nobody is suggesting we "keep the law of Moses in its full legislative array at the performance level", although a question I have is, how should one respond as an individual if specific conditions arise that the law addresses?

    In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul writing to new covenant Gentile believers, uses as an authority the terminology " the law of Moses " (not the law of Christ or LOVE) to describe the moral force in action. He quotes Deut.25:4 verbatim and his conclusion---it is written for US, new covenant Christians, "for our sakes", not just the old covenant Israelites.

    Interesting language. He didn't have to use that terminology to make the point but he did. He draws a spiritual lesson from it as it applies to the church, but the question I have, would not the letter still be applicable if the original conditions of the original command be manifested? If you own an animal doesn't it need to be fed? Does not man still need physical rest? Can't the sabbath day supply that rest and still picture our spiritual rest in Jesus Christ?

    Paul is preaching God's word on " what the Lord has ordained" via the law of Moses. He is not enforcing it or kicking people out over it, but leaving it to the individual that they may perceive the Lord's will and meet this obligation.

    You say, "either you are keeping all the law of Moses or you are not keeping any of it". Once again, in his typical fashion, I think multi-part man has the correct answer.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous 12:06 cited Kistemaker, "If the believer is within Christ’s law, at the same time he is within God’s law and obeys his will."

    It is difficult to assess this statement because I do not know what Kistemaker means by "God's Law." An Armstrongist would immediately and erroneously equate this term with The Law of Moses. My guess is that few Christian theologians would do that. God’s Law is the reflection of God’s character and pre-existed the Cosmos, human beings and angels. God gave behavioral regulations that align with his character to humanity and this is the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ. These codes are not the essence of God’s law but instantiations of it for created human beings in their created context. Further, the Ten Commandments are God’s laws for humans but not for other sentient creatures such as angels. The law proscribing adultery does not pertain to angels because they do not marry. Marriage is an institution created for humans. And adultery is a violation of the marriage institution and the law against adultery cannot meaningfully exist unless there is a marriage institution which cannot meaningfully exist unless there are human beings.

    If Kistemaker is using the term “God’s Law” in the essential sense of reflecting God’s timeless character, I am in full agreement with what he says. If he is equating “God’s Law” to the Law of Moses, I am in full disagreement. Jesus does not mediate the Law of Moses to us. He mediates God’s essential law to us that, of course, overlaps in many ways with the Law of Moses and has the same moral force. Both laws originated with God. But Paul says that the law of Moses, which he terms the ministry of death, was glorious but it does not come up to the New Testament laws.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  39. BP8 7:23

    I believe there is much good in the Law of Moses. It continues to be an ethical code that is worthy of applying. "You shall not muzzle the ox" makes sense to me in both agricultural and non-agricultural contexts. I am not surprised that Paul draws on it.

    What it is not is the pathway to salvation. To make it such is a principal heresy of Armstrongism. Armstrongist theology teaches that the Law of Moses in the letter, updated and made more stringent by Jesus, is written on the converted heart and defines the righteous behavior required for salvation.

    I believe a person can keep as much of the letter of the Law of Moses as they want. They just can't use that as a pre-condition to salvation. If you want to keep the Sabbath at the Pharisaical level, knock yourself out. I don't keep it because I understand Jesus to be my rest and I believe that observance of the physical seventh-day tends to obscure that fact. Others may be fine with this.

    And if you want to make the letter of the Law of Moses the pathway to salvation you can't just select some of the laws and keep them. You have to keep the entire package. Paul refers the the letter of the Law of Moses as the Ministry of Death in 2 Corinthians 3. He refers to what he teaches as the new covenant as the Law of the Spirit. And the ministry of death is exceeded by the ministry of the spirit in glory. It is clear that he sees them as two distinct bodies of legislation with one being better than the other. But he is talking letter as compared to the spirit. It is also clear that the non-letter moral force of the Law of Moses still has traction. (I am aware that in some few cases the letter still has traction as well.) Distinguishing between letter and spirit is an area that most Christian churches have never delved into systematically. But most Christian churches, contrary what HWA liked to state, believe that the moral force of the Law of Moses is still in effect.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  40. Off-topic — below is a Bible Study on the wall decorations of the holy place in Ezekiel’s Temple.

    members.optusnet.com.au/futurewatch/33a00600.jpg

    The above image may be helpful in viewing below. While there is no mention of height differentiation between the holy and holy of holies this is an eclectic feature of my 3D model of Ezekiel’s Temple.

    Ezekiel 41:18- 20

    Eze 41:18a And it was made [‘asui] with cherubim and palm-trees,
    Eze 41:18b and a palm-tree is between cherub and cherub, and two faces are to the cherub; (YLT).
    Eze 41:19a and the face of man is unto the palm-tree on this side, and the face of a young lion unto the palm-tree on that side;
    Eze 49:19b it is made [‘asui] unto ['el] all [kai] the house [habbayit] all round [sabib] about [sabib]. (YLT).
    Eze 41:20a from the earth ['erets] unto above the opening are the cherubs and the palm-trees made ['asuyim],
    Eze 41:20b and on the wall [weqir] of the temple [hehekal]. (YLT).

    "Vv. 18-21 treat of the ornamenting of the inside of the sanctuary, i.e., of the holy place and the holy of holies. Vv. 18 and 19 form, like vv. 16 and 17, a period extended by parentheses. The predicate ‘asui, standing at the beginning of v. 18, is resumed in v.19b and completed by 'el kai habbayit sabib sabib" (C. F. Keil, Ezekiel, KD, Vol.9, p.379).

    Eze 41:18a and carved (we‘asuy) cherubim and palm decoration (Daniel Block).
    Eze 40:17a And he bringeth me in unto the outer court, and lo, chambers and a pavement made [‘asui] for the court all round about (YLT).

    "Both here and in v.19 MT we‘asuy is awkward, but it is encountered earlier in 40:17. Targ, reads a noun, glyp krwbyn, "engraving of cherubs" " (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-48, NICOT, pp.555).

    "Finally 'asuyim agrees with the subject, which precedes, as in 40:17" (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-48, NICOT, pp.555).

    Eze 41:25 And there were made [‘asui] on them, on the doors of the temple,

    "... cf. vv 18, 25 and contrast the normal form in v 20" (Leslie C. Allen, Ezekiel 20-48, WBC, p.225).

    Eze 41:18a cherubim and palm trees were carved [‘asui].
    Eze 41:16b Wooden paneling covered the wall from the floor up to the windows... (Stephen Cook).

    "Were carved. I take the qal passive participle of the MT, "it was carved," to refer back to the wooden panelling of v. 16. The cherubim were carved into the wood" (Stephen L. Cook, Ezekiel 38-48, AB, p.163).

    1Ki 6:29 And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers [peture sissim], within and without.

    "... the walls were decorated with beautiful carvings of cherubim and palm trees, motifs obviously borrowed from Solomon's temple ( 1 K. 6:29-36)" (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-48, NICOT, pp.558).

    ReplyDelete
  41. Part 2

    Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
    Eze 1:6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.
    Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
    Eze 10:20 This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims.

    "Unlike the four-headed creatures of Ezekiel's earlier visions (chs. 1, 10) these cherubim have only two heads, one human, the other like a lion. This form may have been necessitated by their context: they were not freestanding figures but carved and incorporated into the walls" (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-48, NICOT, pp.558).

    "Two faces. The cherubim show only two faces, not four as seen earlier in Ezekiel 1:10 and 10:14, 21, because here the medium of carved relief entails three-dimensional projection onto a two-dimensional plane. One spatial axis is necessarily omitted. Consult Block (1998, 558) and Tuell (2009, 292)" (Stephen L. Cook, Ezekiel 38-48, AB, p.163).

    "The faces of the ox and the eagle must then be on the back, unrepresented, side" (Steven Tuell, Ezekiel, NIBC, p.292).

    Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

    1Ki 6:27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house... and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.

    "According to Eliezer of Beaugency the palm fronds extend outwards so they touch each other and hide the faces of the cherubs, i.e., the face of the man and the lion on each cherub. The cherubs [should be seraphs] in Isaiah's vision (Isa 6:2) cover their bodies by spreading their own wings. The tabernacle cherubs touch each other with their outspread wings. In Ezekiel's temple, the wings of the cherubs are folded and they take their place by the spread palm fronds" (Jacob Milgrom & Daniel Block, Ezekiel's Hope, p.93).

    1Ki 6:28 And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.

    "No mention is made of "open flowers" (peture sissim) or of gold overlay, which had figured prominently in Solomon's ornamentation" (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-48, NICOT, pp.558).

    "In comparison with the ornamentation of the wall of Solomon's temple the lack of "open flowers" (ptwry ssym) is observed. Whether this is a conscious elimination or simply somewhat grater unpretentiousness in the decoration of the temple, such as can be observed elsewhere, cannot be said with certainty" (Walther Zimmerli, Ezekiel 2, p.388).

    Eze 40:16 and upon each post were palm trees.

    "In comparison with the ornamental decoration of the gates (40:16 and elsewhere) the enrichment of the adornment by the motif of the cherubs can be observed..." (Walther Zimmerli, Ezekiel 2, p.388).

    ReplyDelete
  42. Part 3

    Eze 41:17b and on the whole wall round about the inner and the outer, there were fields [mdwt] (?) (Walther Zimmerli).

    "... if the walls are divided into fields, on one field at any rate there is a continuous sequence of cherubs and palm tree, so that what are envisaged by the mdwt are fairly broad "strips" (Walther Zimmerli, Ezekiel 2, p.388).

    1Ki 6:23 And within the oracle [dbyr] he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
    Eze 10:1 And I looked and saw above the expanse, above the heads of the cherubim, the likeness of a throne of sapphire. (BSB).

    "The form of the cherubs of the wall relief mentioned here is to be distinguished from the throne-bearing cherubs of chapter 10, as are the cherubs in the dbyr of Solomon's temple described in 1 Kgs 6:23-28 from the cherubs of the wall representations in 1 Kgs 6:29. In both cases, however, they doubtless basically fulfill a protective function" (Walther Zimmerli, Ezekiel 2, p.388).

    "Nor is the significance of the winged sphinxes [sic] and palm trees explained, though skillfully carved sculptures will have certainly enhanced the beauty of the interior. The present arrangement of palmette trees flanked by a pair of animals facing each other is attested not only on ancient ivories; the design was common in other art forms as well. But more than aesthetics is involved in this design. In these figures aspirations of life and prosperity (palm) and security (cherubim) coalesce. In Israelite thought, the divine resident of this house was the source of both" (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-48, NICOT, pp.558).

    "The all-seeing cherubim or sphinxes are vigilant guardians of God's tree of life..." (Leslie C. Allen, Ezekiel 20-48, WBC, p.233).

    "An aesthetic principle belittles their meaning. The palm tree is a near Eastern tree of life and the cherubim symbolize divine oversight. In Israelite thought the God who resided in this house controlled both" (Jacob Milgrom & Daniel Block, Ezekiel's Hope, p.93).

    "Pairs of rampant animals facing each other and centered on a palm tree are seen not only on ancient ivories but in other art forms as well... Cf. the ivory carving from Arslan Tash showing a tree between two ram sphinxes facing each other (Barnett, Ancient Ivories, plate 47b..)" (Jacob Milgrom & Daniel Block, Ezekiel's Hope, p.94).

    "Arslan Tash, ancient Hadatu, is an archaeological site in Aleppo Governorate in northern Syria, around 30 kilometres east of Carchemish and the Euphrates and nearby the town of Kobanî" (Wikipedia).

    "Note that Barnett's term for cherubim is "sphinxes" " (Stephen L. Cook, Ezekiel 38-48, AB, p.163).

    Eze 41:20a from the earth ['erets] unto above the opening are the cherubs and the palm-trees made,
    Eze 41:20  From the floor to the ceiling were cherubs and palm-trees carved.  (LXX, Brenton).
    Eze 41:16 Paneling covered the walls from the floor up to the windows and even the window sections. (NAB).

    "Above door height. The LXX has the carvings go all the way to the ceiling ("coffering"; cf. NLT), but the temple's wood paneling does not extend that far..." (Stephen L. Cook, Ezekiel 38-48, AB, p.163).

    ReplyDelete
  43. “I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.” John of Patmos, Revelation 21:22. This seems to be explicit language describing the new heavens and new earth.

    In the spirit of Midrash, I would like to sound a counterpoint to Part 1, 2 and 3. At the time of Ezekiel’s prophecy, the First Temple had been destroyed and many Jews had gone into exile in Babylon. To these exiled Jews it appeared that God had abandoned them. They were in need of a word of encouragement about their land, their now destroyedTemple and their God. They were given this through Ezekiel’s temple vision. God not only removes but restores. There is the creation, then the Cross and then the Restoration of all things. It is a beautiful symmetry that brings all into reconciliation with God. The Cosmos will then, in the eschaton, reflect God’s perfection and purity.

    But the operation of the temple and its services is about separation from God and seeking reconciliation through priesthood, sacrifice and liturgy. This separation is scheduled to go away. There is no enduring need for a temple and its sacrifices as we know it, hence, the statement of John of Patmos.

    There is a connection between Ezekiel’s temple and the passage containing Revelation 21:22 . It has to do with trees that yield fruit for healing. This is described in Ezekiel 47:12 (JSB). It is also described in Revelation 22:1-2. In Ezekiel that trees are watered by water flowing from the Ezekiel’s temple. The explanation of this in Revelation is that the water flows from the throne of God. There is no temple, as John of Patmos stated. Ezekiel’s temple is an allegory.

    Ezekiel spoke to Israel in restoration terms that they would understand. But the actuality is contained in the vision of John of Patmos. I may be cynical but I believe the pre-occupation with Ezekiel’s temple is a support for the argument that the Law of Moses (read “the Sabbath”) should now be kept and will be kept in the future with sacrifices even restored. This is folly.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  44. You many think it is folly but I do not.

    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:15a And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: ... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Rev 20:11a And I saw a great white throne
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    Rev 21:3 ... Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    Before the goal of God’s plan can be realized - certain events have to take place.

    The goal of God is expressed in the tripartite covenant formula as in Rev 21:3 — God will dwell with his people, he will be their God and they will be his people.

    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. (ESV)

    Because of sin and uncleanness of human-beings God cannot fulfill his goal until there is no more sin and uncleanness. God has assigned Jesus to achieve this goal.

    Ex 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

    A foretaste of the realization is seen in the OC and will be in the NC.

    "What a man does through agents he may be said to do himself" (Leon Morris, Luke, TNTC, p.157).

    The “me” and “I” refer to God written from the “principal” perspective; but it is fulfilled by His “agent” Jesus Christ; cp. if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father (John 14:9).

    Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

    Building on the principle of agency, 2:10 is indirect messianic prophecy (cp. also 14:5 LXX with 1 Th 3:13:

    "The section begins with a call to joy, followed by the reason for such jubilation (cf.9:9). The reason given is the personal coming of God himself to live among his people in Jerusalem (Zion). This language is ultimately messianic - indirectly or by extension from God in general to the Messiah in particular... Indirect messianic prophecy refers to passages that can be literally and fully realized only through the person and work of the Messiah - e.g. passages that speak of a personal coming of God to his people..." (Kenneth L. Barker, Zechariah, EBC, Vol.7, p.619).

    So it was Jesus who was to dwell in the Mosaic tabernacle. That is He had a dwelling presence in the tabernacle while in heaven - cp. Solomon’s prayer at the dedication of the Temple in this regard.

    Ex 29:46 ... I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may DWELL AMONG THEM...
    Ex 29:43 ... the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory
    Lev 26:12 I will walk among you and BE YOUR GOD, and you will be MY PEOPLE.

    1Ki 6:13 And I will DWELL AMONG THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, and will not forsake MY PEOPLE Israel.
    2Sa 7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become THEIR GOD.

    So the typical fulfillment of the antitype in Rev 21:3 was first fulfilled in the ‘tabernacle’ dispensation of the Old Covenant; which was followed in the ‘temple’ dispensation of the OC - the two administrations make up the Hagar dispensation of the OC.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Part 2

    Zec 8:3 This is what the LORD says: “I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem.
    Eze 43:4 The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east.

    Jesus Christ, after fulfilling the second half of his prophetic week will have return to Zion symbolized by his glory entering Ezekiel’s Temple. The first foretaste of the covenant relationship was a disaster but the future one will be a success.

    Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be THEIR GOD, and they shall be MY PEOPLE.
    Eze 43:7a And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will DWELL IN THE MIDST OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL for ever

    The new covenant with the house of Israel and Judah of the messianic Age will be the Keturah Administration of the NC.

    Eze 46:24 Then said he unto me, These are the places of them that boil, where the ministers of the house shall boil the sacrifice [zebah] of the people.

    Having Jesus’ glory dwelling in the NC temple will once again be very dangerous for human beings — as King Uzziah found out (2 Ch 26) — hence the need for the reinstating of the Levitical priests and sacrifices - sacrifices being for atonement (e.g. sin offerings) and fellowship (e.g. peace offerings [zebah selamim]).

    "The concern for and protection of the holy. In ancient Israel, as elsewhere in the ancient Near East, a sanctuary was not a place to be entered lightly and unthinkingly. Rather, the sanctuary was seen as a danger zone, somewhat comparable to a nuclear power plant. In a nuclear power station, strict precautions have to be taken because of the special dangers of radioactivity, which can cause catastrophic effects if it is handled carelessly. Access to some areas of the site is strictly limited, and special clothing has to be worn for some processes to prevent lethal contact between those operating the plant and the radioactive material, and to prevent radioactivity being transmitted by them to the outside world. In an analogous way, the priests had to take special care in their dress and their conduct to avoid danger to themselves and to prevent dangerous levels of holiness being brought into contact with the general public.

    "Nowhere is this caution more evident than in Ezekiel's vision. This is hardly surprising, given Ezekiel's own experience of seeing the Jerusalem temple defiled and subsequently destroyed by God's holy wrath. Anyone who personally witnessed the carnage caused by the meltdown at the Chernobyl nuclear power station would understandably be concerned to tighten up regulations to guard against its repetition. In precisely the same way, Ezekiel's vision represents a tightening of the "holiness code of practice," a raising of the walls and reinforcing the steel of the containment chamber around the temple. Ezekiel is all too aware of something distant from our contemporary thinking: that it is a fearful thing for sinners to fall into the hands of the all-holy God" (Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel, NIVAC, pp.503-05).

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them ... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Christ and the Saints are going to replace Satan and demons in the heavenlies and rule the earth from there - this is the heavenly kingdom that Paul looked forward to 2 Tim 4:18.

    2Ch 9:8 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God ... to do judgment and justice.

    Jesus will appoint his relatives to rule for Him on the Throne of David while he is in heaven, just as His forefathers ruled for him in the OC.

    It is suggested that the end-time proclamation of the kingdom of God, entails three essential elements: (1) the present kingship/rule and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ; (2) the soon coming heavenly kingdom; (3) and the soon coming earthy "kingdom of the Lord over Israel" and the earth.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Part 1, 2 cited, “Rev 21:3 Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

    What you have written furnishes us with a brief tour through your views on eschatology but does not address the topic of Ezekiel’s Temple directly. The quoted statement above comes closest to being germane. In this scripture the term translated as tabernacle is “skēnē” in Greek which can mean an abode or dwelling or habitation. It is not a good fit for the word “temple.” The word used for tabernacle in this scripture is neither “naos” nor “hieron”, both used of the Jerusalem temple. I believe a cogent argument could be made that skēnē used in the context refers not to a temple but to the New Jerusalem which John of Patmos refers to as the City of My God.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  47. I will get back to Ezekiel’s Temple directly when I have more time - this coming Sabbath.

    Just a short note following on from Rev 21:3

    Rev 21:3  and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, 'Lo, the tabernacle [skēnē, noun] of God is with men, and He will tabernacle [skēnōsei, verb] with [met’] them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them—their God,

    Joh 1:14  And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle [eskēnōseni, verb] among [en] us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth. (YLT).

    John 1:14a The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us (Leon Morris)

    "The Word "lived for a while among us." Properly the verb signifies "to pitch one's tent;"... In Jewish ears the word might arouse other associations. The place of worship during the wanderings of Israel in the wilderness, the place where God had vouchsafed his presence, was "the Tabernacle," and that noun corresponds to the verb used here. That John wants us to recall God's presence in the tabernacle in the wilderness seems clear from the immediate reference to "glory," for glory was associated with the tabernacle. When, for example, it was first set up, "the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle" (Exod. 40:34). It is possible that we should see other symbolism here also. There seems to be no doubt that John saw Jesus as a new and greater Moses...

    "Many authors see a reference to the Sinai theophany rather than to the setting of the tabernacle. The point of contact with Exodus 33 are especially numerous:

    Exodus 33:7 Now Moses used to take the tabernacle (skene LXX).

    33:9 the pillar of cloud (the Shekinah) descended
    1:14a the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us

    33:10 all the people saw the pillar of cloud
    1:14b we beheld his glory

    33:11 Yahweh spoke to Moses face to face
    1:17 the law was given through Moses

    33:20 you cannot see my face
    1:18a no one has ever seen God

    33:23 you will see my back; but my face shall not be seen
    1:18b the only begotten Son ... has made him known

    (The above works better in a table).

    "All this strengthens the view that John wants us to view Jesus as the new and greater Moses" (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, Revised, NICNT, pp.91-92).

    ReplyDelete
  48. Part 1,2,3

    To use John 1:14 to interpret Revelation 21:3 is a conflation. The NRSV translates Revelation 21:3 as follows. I include verse 2 because it is important for context:

    “And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them;”

    The logical flow of these two verses requires that we see a usage of the term tabernacle in the sense of a dwelling place. To see it otherwise, is to violate that logical flow and unjustifiably separate these two verses in meaning. The phrase “the home of God is among mortals” does not suddenly depart from context and refer to Ezekiel’s Temple. Further that would be incompatible with the explicit statement of John of Patmos: “I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.” The New Jerusalem descended and there was no Temple building in it. Because God is the Temple.

    John 1:14 uses the word skene and may refer to Jesus as the tabernacle (the forerunner of the temple). But it is not necessary to make that deduction. It could simply mean he “dwelt” among us. But if it were a play on words and implied a connection to the idea of “tabernacle” in the sense of the forerunner of the temple, that would be consistent with John 2:19 where Jesus identifies himself as the Temple and with the words of John of Patmos in Revelation 21:22.

    The fact is, the earthly temple foreshadowed Jesus just as the Sabbath did. And once Jesus is here, there is no reason for it to continue to foreshadow. Both the Temple and the letter of the Law of Moses terminated circa 70 AD.

    Scout


    ReplyDelete
  49. Part 1,2,3

    The idea that the Temple of Ezekiel with sacrifices will exist in perpetuity, or for any period of time after the Crucifixion, is a disturbing concept. The Temple and its sacrifices are about reconciliation with God. Humans are separated from God through sin. And the interface for meeting God and gaining atonement is the Temple and its practices. Once a year the High Priest may enter the Holy of Holies to seek atonement.

    After the Crucifixion, the Temple system of communicating with God and making atonement through sacrifices ended. Jesus has become the glorious replacement for that interface. He is the bridge between God and man. In Christ, we may come boldly before the throne of grace with the one-time sacrifice of Christ as a means of entry. Christ is the Temple and his sacrifice replaces the sacrifice of animals.

    The perpetuation of the Temple/sacrifices model is the denial of Jesus. It is based on the idea that there will always be sin. God will never finally triumph. Humankind will never be freed. There will always be a separation between God and humankind. God and humanity will be forever captive to a system that can never bring perfection. And the Cosmos will continue to reel under the burden of sin. The fact that there will be no earthly temple in the future is a statement of hope in the efficacy of the sacrifice of Jesus.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  50. Hopefully, Scout, we can agree to disagree.

    I believe that Jesus will renew the covenant with Israel and Judah on better promises as per Jeremiah 3:31-34.

    Jesus will also restore the Levitical priesthood as per Jeremiah 33:14-26.

    And Jesus will have a dwelling presence in Ezekiel’s Temple as per Ezekiel 43:1-7.

    Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
    Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

    Isa 56:6  “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— 
    Isa 56:7  these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” (ESV).

    I disagree with “The perpetuation of the Temple/sacrifices model is the denial of Jesus”.

    But as John says, “Time will tell”.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Anonymous 11:11 wrote, "I disagree with “The perpetuation of the Temple/sacrifices model is the denial of Jesus”.

    Time has already told.

    I do not believe that your viewpoint and mine can co-reside. No more than the views of the Circumcision Party could co-reside with Christianity in the First Century. The Book of Hebrews is a treatise on the inefficacy of animal sacrifices. Why then would Jesus, whose sacrifice actually saves, want to reinstitute the animal sacrifices defined by the Law of Moses?

    For the future, sacrifices are defined in the following scriptures. There is no blood and death here:

    Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

    1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

    In 1 Peter above, the priesthood is not the restored Levitical priesthood offering animal sacrifices but the priesthood of the children of God offering spiritual sacrifices.

    Your view on the restoration of the Temple with a Levitical Priesthood and animal sacrifices is so reactionary as to be outside the typical bounds of Midrash. It comports with the semi-Arian, lèse-majesté view of Jesus found in some parts of extreme Millerism, including Armstrongism. It is the denial of the salvific force of Jesus and the exalting of the letter of the Law of Moses, the physical Temple, the Levitical Priesthood and animal sacrifices in contravention to the New Testament.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  52. Scout

    We are all aware of your propensity toward the law of Moses, but is it really necessary to trash the "prophets" as well?

    I see no contravention here. There are several NT scriptures that validate the message of the prophets, one of which is Acts 3:20-21:

    "He shall send Jesus Christ, whom the heavens must receive UNTIL the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His HOLY PROPHETS since the world began".

    The scriptures you present (Heb.13, 1 Peter 2) apply to the dispensation of the Church of God, those taken out for God's name sake, A unique Priesthood, called to be saints, first fruits unto God, joint heirs with Christ, a very different category than that of the world. The future conversion of the heathen follows a complete different path than that of the church, which is Christ's body.

    This restitution of all things begins at the second coming of the Lord. Along with Christ, the saints will judge and rule the nations (1 Cor.6:2, Rev.2:26-27, Matt.19:28). At that time, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness, sometimes the hard way (Isaiah 26:9, Zech.14:16-19). This is the word of God, not Armstrong or Millerism literature.

    What the prophets have spoken concerning Ezekiel's temple, the law going forth out of Zion, and the sabbath and holydays being kept will be literally fulfilled. You can't spiritualize it away!

    ReplyDelete
  53. Scout writes:

    “The Book of Hebrews is a treatise on the inefficacy of animal sacrifices. Why then would Jesus, whose sacrifice actually saves, want to reinstitute the animal sacrifices defined by the Law of Moses?”

    I will address the last sentence first. The material below has been taken from various ‘scribbles” I have put together.

    Why the Millennial Temple and Sacrifices? The same reason for the Old Testament Tabernacle and Sacrifices - the Presence of God:

    ... the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory... And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God. And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God (Exodus 29:43, 45 & 46, AV).

    Then the man brought me to the gate facing east, and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory... The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east. Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple. While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple. He said: “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever... (Ezekiel 43:1-7a, NIV & AV).

    Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee...

    Jesus Christ did “dwell” in the Tabernacle among the children of Israel (cp. Ex 29) and Jesus Christ will “dwell’ in the Millennial Temple among the children of Israel (Ezekiel 43) and the Gentiles - note the highlights...

    After the good news of the new covenant in chapter 31, the “theme of chapter 33 is the restoration of Jerusalem and the reestablishment of its worship... Once more the Lord gives Judah light in her darkest hours” (Charles L. Feinberg, Jeremiah, EBC, Vol.6, p.588).

    Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; (AV).
    Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

    “Jer 33:14-18 contain the promise of the restoration of the monarchy and the priesthood. Jer 33:19-26 further present two special messages from God, in the form of supplements, which guarantee the eternal continuance of these institutions” (C.F. Keil, Jeremiah, KD, Vol.8, pp.301-02).

    The implication is that this fulfillment of the promises made to Jeremiah with ruling Davidic kings and sacrificing Levitical priests is yet future.

    Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? (AV).

    Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD: I will return to Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: (NKJV).

    The theology of this ‘scribble’ is that Jesus Christ will restore the kingdom to Israel; and He will have a dwelling presence in the Millennial Temple as He did in Solomon’s Temple, while in heaven (cp.1 Kgs 8:27 & 30). Christ’s ‘dwelling presence’ in Ezekiel’s temple will require sacrifices by Levitical priests, as argued below, to maintain His presence there - God dwelling with His people is at the heart of the covenant.

    Therefore, the argument, based on Hebrews, that the Levitical sacrifices are obsolete, is a misunderstanding of “ancient rhetorical patterns and pre-modern exegetical principles” employed by the writer. The Levitical sacrifices are not obsolete as the contention is at odds with God’s promises made to Jeremiah, noted by Isaiah and especially revealed to Ezekiel.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Part 2

    Nu 19:20 But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD:... (AV).

    One of the main arguments for sacrifices is that certain sins and ritual impurities are dynamic. Christ’s sacrifice does not make obsolete the dynamic nature of these sins and ritual impurities.

    In the divine-human relationship those who commit sin are deserving of death. God in his mercy provides ‘sacrifices’ to ransom their lives so that the relationship may continue in harmony.

    Certain sins and ritual impurities are especially incompatible with holiness in that they generate ‘impurities’ that defile God’s tabernacle. In these cases, ‘sacrifices’ not only ransom but they also purify.

    In the divine-human relationship sin is betrayal; especially when God and man are in a covenantal relationship.

    This may be illustrated in the husband-wife relationship. Adultery by one spouse affects, when revealed,
    the other spouse. There is the sin of one and the ‘hurt’ of the other, caused by that sin. Put differently, the sin of one ‘generates’ pain in the other. This pain must be healed so that the husband-wife relationship may continue in harmony.

    “... every sin carries its own penalty... A sinful act, in addition, unleashes impurity, which is attracted to the sanctuary” (John E. Hartley, Leviticus, WBC, p.lxxi)

    When certain sins are committed and ritual impurities contracted ,they ‘hurt’ God, defiling His sanctuary. The impurities, generated by these affronts to holiness, must be cleansed from the sanctuary so that the divine-human relationship can continue in harmony.

    “... why the urgency to purge the sanctuary? The answer lies in this postulate: the God of Israel will not abide in a polluted sanctuary. The merciful God will tolerate a modicum of pollution. But there is a point of no return. If the pollution continues to accumulate, the end is inexorable: “Then the cherubs raised their wings” (Eze 11:22). The divine chariot flies heavenward, and the sanctuary is left to its doom. The book of Lamentations echoes this priestly theology: “The Lord had abandoned his altar, rejected his Sanctuary. He has handed over to the foe the walls of its citadels” (Lam 2:7)” (Jacob Milgrom, Leviticus 1-16, AB, p.258).

    ReplyDelete
  55. Part 3

    Scout writes:

    “The Book of Hebrews is a treatise on the inefficacy of animal sacrifices.”

    Heb 9:13 ... the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    There was an efficacy to animal sacrifices in that they purified the flesh.

    "Then the priest is to take some of the blood [of the purification offering] with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar ... In this way the priest will make atonement [kipper] for him for the sin he has committed, and he will be forgiven" (Leviticus 4:30 & 35b, NIV).

    Phil 3:6b blameless with respect to the righteousenss that comes by the law (Frank Thielman).

    "This does not mean that Paul thought of himself as sinless prior to conversion, for his blamelessness would include careful attention to the means of atonement the law provided for those who sin" (Frank Thielman, Philippians, NIVAC, p.170).

    “In this way the priest will make atonement [kipper] for him for the sin he has committed, and he will be forgiven” (Leviticus 4:35b, NIV).

    "The repeated statements of the law of Moses on the effects of the sacrifices offered for sin in the Levitical law is "and he shall be forgiven" (Lev 1:4; 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 16). So effective and so all-embracing was this forgiveness that it availed for such sins as lying, theft, fraud, perjury, and debauchery (Lev 6:1-7)... In fact, in connection with the Day of Atonement, what is implicit in these other lists is clearly stated: "all their sins" were atoned (Lev 16:21, 22; my emphasis). Thus instead of limiting the efficacy of this forgiveness to ceremonial sins, all the sins of all the people who were truly repentant were included. It is important to note that the qualification of a proper heart and attitude is clearly stated in Leviticus 16:29 and 31 where the people asked to "afflict ('anah) their souls" (KJV). Accordingly, only those who had inwardly prepared their hearts were eligible to receive the gracious gift of God's forgiveness (cf. Also 1 Sam 15:22).

    ReplyDelete
  56. Part 4

    "Nevertheless, a major problem appears whenever the Christian introduces the argument of Hebrews 8-10 into this discussion. The writer of Hebrews states in no uncertain terms that:

    The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming - not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship... because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins (Heb 10:1, 4).

    "This surely seems to diminish the high claims that we just finished attributing to the writer of Leviticus. In fact, Hebrews 9:9 adds that "the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshipper." What shall we say then about the forgiveness offered in the Torah? It would be too much to contend that the OT offer of forgiveness repeated so often in the Levitical institution of the sacrifices were only symbolic and offered no actual cleansing from or removal of sin.

    "The only solution is to take the OT and NT statements seriously. We conclude then, with Hobart Freeman, that the OT sacrifices were subjectively efficacious, in that the sinner did receive full relief... But it is also clear that the sacrifices of bulls and goats were not in themselves expiatory and efficacious. The most these sacrifices could do was to point to the need for a perfect, living substitute who would, in the timing of God, ransom and deliver all from the debt, guilt, and effects of their sin. Thus, the OT sacrifices were not objectively efficacious; but then neither did the OT ever claim that the blood of these bulls and goats was inherently effective...

    "The efficacy of the OT sacrifices, then rested in the Word of God, who boldly announced that sacrifices done in this manner and with this heart attitude (Ps 50:8, 14; 51:16 [Heb 10:8]; Prov 15:8, 21:3; Isa 1:11-18; 66:3; Jer 7:21-23; Hos 6:6; Amos 5:21; Mic 6:6-8) would receive from God a genuine experience of full forgiveness...

    "During the OT period, sins were forgiven and remembered against men and women no more (Ps 103:3, 10-12) - in fact, removed as far from the OT confessor as the east is from the west! Thus, the OT saint experienced sins forgiven on the basis of God's Word and sins forgotten (i.e., "remembered against him no more," (Ezek 18:22, my translation)..." (Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Towards Rediscovering The Old Testament, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1991), pp.133-35).

    ReplyDelete
  57. BP8 7:25 wrote, “We are all aware of your propensity toward the law of Moses, but is it really necessary to trash the "prophets" as well?”

    I am “trashing” neither the Law of Moses nor the Prophets. I am advocating what the New Testament says about both of these topics and opposing what Armstrongism says about these topics. Jesus was the focal point of both the Law and the Prophets. He said:

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.”

    The Law and the Prophets are all about Jesus. Both bodies of writing foreshadowed Jesus. Jesus is the Law and the Prophets. He is Alpha and Omega. And Jesus brought us a new body of legislation, called the Law of Christ, that replaces the Law and the Prophets. If you have read my material, and are not dull of hearing, you have seen the exegesis for this. I don’t feel like going back and repeating all this for you.

    If you want to form a counterpoint to this that claims that the Law and the Prophets are still in force, then beware of the fact that Armstrongists do not keep the Law of Moses though they give it lip service. You then create a counterpoint that condemns Armstrongists, and perhaps yourself, to perdition by the words of your own mouth.


    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  58. BP8 7:25 wrote, "The scriptures you present (Heb 13:16, 1 Peter 2) apply to the dispensation of the Church of God, those taken out for God's name sake, A unique Priesthood, called to be saints, first fruits unto God, joint heirs with Christ, a very different category than that of the world. The future conversion of the heathen follows a complete different path than that of the church, which is Christ's body."


    This sleight of hand does not work. It is a novel assertion but it is accompanied by no exegesis. Is there somewhere in the Bible that it says that after Jesus institutes the Law of Christ under the new covenant, we are going to go back to the Law of Moses for all of the unconverted? The children of God may offer spiritual sacrifices but the unconverted must offer animal sacrifices? To me this represents a desperate and unfounded attempt to cling to the Law of Moses in contravention to the New Testament.

    If you have an exegesis, bring it.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  59. Scout.

    Since simplicity is not your strong suit, I will leave it to multi-part man to load you up with all the exegesis you can handle. He's done a very fine job up to now.

    You are right about one thing. "Jesus is the focal point of the prophets", the complete Jesus, the Jesus of both the first and second advents.

    Acts 3 tells us that Christ's work of restoring all things begins at His second coming. It also reveals that the description of that restitution is found in the prophets (vs.19-21). You know the ones, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah and others.

    The regeneration of which the Lord speaks in Matt.19:28 is the same restoration in Acts 3. In Mark 10:30 and Luke 18:30, this same time period is called "the coming age" or age about to come. Both this regeneration and restoration is contingent on Christ's coming to sit upon the throne of His glory. From there, as spoken by the prophets, we look forward to a restored Israel and a regenerated earth.

    It is surely unnecessary to quote the many prophecies which tell of and describe the time when "the earth shall be full of the knowledge and glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea", Isaiah 11:9, Hab.2:14. You can look them up yourself. And if you require critical explanation of said texts, there's plenty of resources out there to choose from.

    For me, I believe what is written and take these prophecies (about Christ and His future work) at face value, in their literal meaning, and do not attempt to explain them, or rather fritter them away by any spiritualizing interpretation which deprives them of all their truth and power.

    If you disagree, so be it!

    ReplyDelete
  60. Thanks BP8 for your positive remarks about my multi-posts.

    In your comment you wrote:

    “Christ's coming to sit upon the throne of His glory”.

    My understanding is that Christ will not be sitting upon the throne of David/throne of the Lord during the Messianic Age.

    Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor THEIR KINGS...
    2Ch 9:8 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God ... to do judgment and justice.

    There are two thrones in Israel, one in the temple and one in the palace/city. During the Messianic Age Christ’s earthly throne is in the Holy of holies where he will have a dwelling presence; just as he did in Solomon’s Temple.

    While Jesus had a dwelling presence in Solomon’s Temple, Solomon and his descendants ‘sat' on the throne of David.

    When the Shekinah left the temple, not only did it spell disaster for the Temple and the City it was the end of Davidic Kings sitting on the throne of David until the time for building of the Millennial Temple. The building of the Messianic Temple - not the pre-tribulation temple that the man of sin will sit in proclaiming himself to be God -goes hand in hand with the restoration of the monarchy.

    The Messianic Age begins with the glory of the Lord filling the house (Ezekiel 43:5) just as the Church Age began with the spirit of Christ filling the whole house (Acts 2:2).

    The Church Age began just after Christ fulfilled the first half of His prophetic week and the Kingdom Age begins just after Jesus fulfills the second half of his week.

    (This graphic helps in understanding the above two sentence: members.optusnet.com.au/futurewatch/375ecc60.png).

    Jn 21:17 ... Simon, son of Jonas ... Feed my sheep.

    Jer 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
    Jer 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

    “As Good Shepherd (10:11, 14), he [Jesus] commissions Peter to act as shepherd in his absence, in view of his imminent departure... Peter will act as shepherd in Jesus' place, yet the "lambs" belong not to him but to Jesus..." (The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.1044). Cp. also the 1 Peter 5:1-4, esp. Jn 21:17b with 1 Pet 5:2a).

    Prior to Christ’s return to heaven, at the end of His first half-week, Jesus commissioned Simon Peter to be the leader of the Church, until James, the heir-apparent to the throne of David, was ready to become the head of the Church in Jerusalem.

    (Compare the numerous parallels between Jesus’ ministry in Luke’s Gospel and Peter’s ministry in Luke’s Acts - there are more if the other Gospels are added).

    Prior to Jesus’ return to heaven, at the end of His second half-week, he will appoint his relatives consecutively to sit on the throne of David to shepherd His lambs.

    Eze 46:16 Thus saith the Lord GOD; If the prince give a gift unto any of his sons, the inheritance thereof shall be his sons'; it shall be their possession by inheritance.
    Eze 46:18 Moreover the prince shall not take of the people's inheritance by oppression, to thrust them out of their possession; but he shall give his sons inheritance out of his own possession: that my people be not scattered every man from his possession.

    The prince in Ezekiel 44:3 - 48:22 will sit on the throne of David to be king for the LORD thy God ... to do judgment and justice in Jesus’ absence.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Part 2

    "... the identification of the prince as a descendant of David is lacking... although it is hard to imagine that Ezekiel had a different dynasty in mind. Why is that? Because in Ezekiel's vision there is another central royal figure, the Lord himself reigning in the temple. The past abuses of the monarchy will be done away with, legislated out of existence by a rearrangement of the land and by specific commands to the future monarch; but the monarch himself remains as a representative of the people. He remains in place, but only as the VASSAL of the Great King, God himself" (Ian M. Duguid, Ezekiel, NIVAC, p.523).

    Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places [lit., in the heavenlies”; (YLT).

    When Jesus returned to heaven after his first half-week it was to the heavenly Holy of Holies (in the book of Hebrews, Heaven = the Holy of Holies).

    2Sa 5:6 And THE KING AND HIS MEN went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.
    2Sa 5:7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of ZION: the same is the city of David.

    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, A LAMB stood on the mount ZION, and WITH HIM AN HUNDRED FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    After Christ returns to heaven after his second half week it will be to the “heavenly places” which typology suggests is the heavenly holy place.

    David dethroning the Jebusites from Zion and making Zion his city is the type for the Greater Son of David to displace Satan and the demons from the heavenlies and making the heavenly Zion his “city” from where Christ and the Saints will rule the world. Instead of demon “principalities”, “authorities”, and “world-rulers” (cp. 1 Cor 2:6, 8) there will be saint "principalities", "authorities", and "world-rulers".

    Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    (Typology suggests that the invisible realm of the earth is the lower realm of heaven).

    The above pictures the “kingly”role of the Saints:

    Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    Rev 7:17a For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them

    2Ki 19:14 And Hezekiah received the letter of the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah WENT UP INTO THE HOUSE OF THE LORD, and spread it before the LORD.

    Revelation 7:15-17 pictures the “priestly” role of the Saints. Just as one goes up from stronghold of Zion to the earthly Temple; the Saints will “go up” to the heavenly Temple to fulfill their role as heavenly priests. (cp. 1 Kings 8:27).

    The success of the Messianic Age requires two priesthoods, one on earth and one in heaven.

    Note:

    Ge 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
    Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

    After David captured the fortress of Zion, he was unofficially a priest after the order of Melchizedek as well as King. The Davidic kings are priests not in the sense of the Levitical priests. The resume of the earthly Melchizdek king-priest was that of temple-builder and maintainer and overseer of the sacrificial worship of Israel - for example Solomon deposed Abiathar and installed Zadok as high priest .

    With the death of Joseph, Jesus as a descendant of David/Solomon was now a king-priest after the order of Melchizedek.

    ReplyDelete
  62. BP8 1:23

    If you ever decide to take up the challenge and exegete a counterpoint to my arguments, you will have to contend with the following issues. I have never integrated this into a single viewpoint. But exasperation with multi-part man and his ilk (prophecy hobbyists) may one day lead me to do that.

    1. Jesus is the Word of God in action. He supersedes whatever is written. If you want to know what Christianity is about, and OT religion before it, you need to look to Jesus. You cannot rummage around in the OT, find a passage of prophecy and turn it into a hobby without regard to the fact that Jesus is the real Word of God. Jesus has the last say, the only say. Always.

    2. The prophets prophesied until John the Baptist. Luke 16:16: “The Law and the Prophets were until John came; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is being proclaimed, and everyone tries to enter it by force.” Note the strict compartmentalization. It does not really admit of the possibility that some of the OT prophecies may reach out to the future beyond John the Baptist.

    3. Jesus said he fulfilled the prophets. Matthew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.”

    4. 2Tim 3:16-17: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Predictive prophecy from the OT does not have an explicit position on this list. And the goal of this scripture here is nothing less than the equipping and formation of a good Christian.

    5. Then there is Christotelicity. The authors of the NT frequently picked scriptures out of the OT that had nothing to do with Jesus in their original context and boldly applied this to Christ. This is because they saw all OT scripture as being about Jesus.

    6. The Armstrongist tool for claiming that all prophecy is renewable and can be recycled at will is Type-Antitype. It is invoked frequently. But it seems never to be accompanied by exegesis that explains why it should be invoked in any specific case. It is a rogue hermeneutic that permits them to vault over Jesus into fields of wild speculation on the future.

    7. Jesus was King, Priest and Prophet. He was that Prophet spoken of by Moses. And Moses said this Prophet will be like (but exceeding) himself and should be heeded. And Jesus has given us what was predictive prophecy in his time in Matthew 24 and the Book of Revelation. And OT prophecies do not overlay these New Testament prophecies.

    I do not have this in final form but this is the drift. Armstrongist predictive prophecy fans will appreciate my use of seven points. That’s why I made it come out that way. I know that prophecy fans also tend to be numerology fans. If I had only six points, can you imagine the stir ...

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  63. 423

    Concerning Christ and His throne, I was merely quoting Matthew 19:28, with emphasis on "the regeneration". The particulars you raise may very well be correct.

    Concerning the " regeneration " in this passage, Bullinger contends the meaning is, "the making of all things new. This is the same as the restitution of Acts 3:21
    (The Companion Bible note at 19:28, page 1357).

    Scout and others see a huge disconnect between what the NT says about this restitution and the OT prophets vivid description of it. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. There is no disconnect. Both testaments focus on Jesus Christ. The NT prophesies Christ's coming with his saints to rule and reign, and the OT has prophecies describing that reign in action. What we are NOT seeing is the prophets describing "wild speculation" of the future!!

    If the NT prophecies are to be taken literally, why not the OT?

    The ISBE, 1986, vol.3, pg.361, article, Millennium says:

    "The arguments for premillennialism are generally of 2 types: exegetical and doctrinal. Exegetically, the claim is made that only a literal interpretation of Rev.20 fulfills the basic hermeneutic rule that a passage of scripture must be taken in its natural sense unless contextual considerations force a non literal rendering. The burden of proof thus falls upon the opponent (Scout) to show that such considerations do in fact exist". (Scout saying Christ has already fulfilled everything written in the prophets concerning and describing His future rule does not work for me)!

    "Doctrinally, the premillennialist argues that the vindication of God's ways to humanity entails Christ's victory and reign in the very sphere in which Satanic power has so long been manifest. For God's will to be done 'on earth as it is in heaven' demands what T.A. Kantonen has termed, 'the Harvest of History' (see article for footnotes).

    " A. Saphir asked, is earth simply a failure, abandoned by God to the power of the enemy, the scene of divine judgement, and not the scene of the vindication and triumph of righteousness ?" (Lectures on the Lord's Prayer, 1870).

    "It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being RESTORED to its primeval condition, should be without restraint under the dominion of the righteous" (end of article).

    The description of this "dominion of the righteous" is both taught in the NT and described in detail by many of the OT prophets, and is verified by Peter in Acts 3.
    Scout has to reject this for it would be anathema for him to accept that Christ would actually use the Law, sabbath, holydays, Ezekiel's temple, etc. as instruments of instruction in educating the world, even though Paul had no problem using the law of Moses in teaching responsibility to Gentile Corinthians (1 Cor.9).

    prophets, and is verified by Peter in Acts 3.

    ReplyDelete
  64. The End of the Age of Preparation

    “No Jew needed to be told that the blessings of the age to come would be indefinitely greater than those of the present age... the problem under discussion was not the character and blessing of the age to come but the person and mission of Jesus. Was he the Coming One? Was John right in identifying Jesus as the one who would introduce the Kingdom of God? Precisely here was John’s problem: the eschatological salvation and judgment he had proclaimed were not being fulfilled in Jesus. Jesus’ answer in Matthew 11:4-6 assured John’s disciples that the messianic salvation was present and in process of fulfillment, but in unexpected terms. The reference, therefore, to those “in the Kingdom of heaven” is to those who were experiencing the messianic salvation, proclaimed and performed by Jesus. It was a greater thing to hear the good news and to receive the healing and life of messianic salvation than to be prophet as great as John the Baptist” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., pp. 200-201).

    Mt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
    Mt 11:12 And from [apo] the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
    Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
    Christ.
    Mt 1:17 So all the generations from [apo] Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from [apo] David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from [apo] the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

    “This interpretation is supported by three facts admitted by most exegetes. (1) Matthew 11:11 contrasts those in the Kingdom with John. (2) Verse 12 says that since the days of John, something is happening that has to do with the Kingdom of God. [Apo can be exclusive, meaning “since.” See Matt 1:17 (‘since the deportation,” vs 11:12; Luke 2:36...]. (3) Verse 13 says that an age has ended with John — the age of the law and the prophets. Therefore we must conclude that (a) John brought to its end the era of the law and the prophets; (b) since John, a new era has begun; and (c) this new era is called the Kingdom of God” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.201).

    “This accords with the obvious conclusion that John stood outside of this new era of the Kingdom. The blessings which Isaiah saw in the eschatological salvation have come to men in history: healing, life, the gospel. These gifts of the Kingdom are now present. However, John did not experience them. We have no record that he or his disciples performed the miracles of the Kingdom. John stood on THE THRESHOLD OF FULFILLMENT, announcing the new order. HE BROUGHT TO ITS CLIMAX THE AGE OF PREPARATION. The fulfillment is so much greater than the preparation that the least who experiences the fulfillment is “greater” than John, “Not by what the least in the Kingdom does for God ... [but] in what God does for him here and now” [T. W. Manson, The Sayings of Jesus (1949), p.70]. This is what it means to be “in the Kingdom.” It has no reference to being in the church but in the new order of the messianic salvation” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.201).

    ReplyDelete
  65. Part 2

    “This saying about being in the Kingdom is not really “neutral” but illuminates the other sayings about entering the Kingdom. God’s Kingdom, his kingly rule, has become dynamically active in history, creating a new realm of blessing into which men enter. This too is called the Kingdom of God. “According to [verse] 11 at it stands, the new era has already begun. The kingdom was virtually present. It is present, though in its full reality and manifestation is still future” [C.G. Montefiore, The Synoptic Gospels (1927), II, p.161]” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.202).

    “This interpretation of Matthew 11:11-13 is supported by Luke. “The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters violently” (Luke 16:16)... We find the same basic contrast between the period of the law and the prophets which ended with John and the period since John which is the time of the preaching of the Kingdom. In both sayings, some are “in the Kingdom.” This does not mean “in the church”; the thought is more primitive than that. To be in the Kingdom is to receive the gospel of the Kingdom and experience its salvation” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., pp. 202-203).

    “... Jesus did not say the old aeon was at an end but that the age of the law and the prophets was at an end. John’s difficulty lay at precisely this point; the structure of the old age seemed undisturbed. How then could Jesus be the Messiah? It was not the new aeon which had begun, but the blessings of the messianic salvation, the Kingdom of God, which had come to men within the old aeon. John had not learned how to distinguish between the messianic salvation and the new aeon; hence his perplexity”(George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.203).

    “Jesus intimated that there was an enigmatic element in the present fulfillment of the Old Testament expectation. “If you are willing to accept it ....,” “He who has ears ...” (Matt 11:14, 15). This coming of messianic salvation was not something which compelled universal recognition and could be perceived by all men” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.203).

    “This is further indicated by the words, “Blessed is he who takes no offence at me” (Matt 11:6). From one point of view, no one could be offended at Jesus. He was a Jewish teacher surrounded by his disciples. This was self-evident. Yet there was a dimension adhering to his person and mission which many did not perceive. Rather they stumbled over his claim. The coming of the Kingdom in Jesus was an event in history, yet it was no ordinary historical phenomenon. If the coming of the Kingdom of God into history was like the coming of the Roman rule which ended Jewish independence and inaugurated a new era and a new reign, all men living in Palestine would have to accept it whether they would not. Any who were “offended” by resistance would be crushed. Submit or die; there was no other option unless it were that of carrying out subversive activities. But even so, the power of Roman was dominant. A new order had come which all had to acknowledge and submit to” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., pp. 203-204).

    “Not so was the coming of the Kingdom of God in Jesus. Some men were offended by it; they would not accept it. Some did not have ears and could not hear. For them, only the old order existed. They were blind to the new order and its blessings” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.204).

    ReplyDelete
  66. Part 3

    “Furthermore, the blessings of the new order did not come to all men. Not all the blind received their sight; not all the lame were healed; not all the lepers were cleansed; only a few dead were raised. Multitudes of deformed, sick, diseased, and dead men in Palestine were untouched by the life of the Kingdom of God. These signs of the Kingdom were only a token, not a fullness of the consummation. When the Eschaton comes and this age passes away, there will be no more deaf or blind or leprous or dead. Death will be swallowed up in life. Here is the mysterious fact about the Kingdom. Its blessing have entered the old age, introducing a new order of life which nevertheless does not bring the old order to its end for all men. The new order is not the age to come, the Eschaton, but is a new order hidden in the old age. However, the new order, hidden as it was, brought salvation to its recipients but judgment to those who rejected it (Matt 11:20-24)” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.204).

    “Thus Jesus introduced a previously unforeseen era of the Kingdom of God. The old order of the law and the prophets ended with John. The age to come, the eschatological consummation, still lay in the future. But meanwhile, a new order had begun which brought to men in the old age the blessings of the messianic salvation. This new order was not a worldly phenomenon encompassing all human existence. It was a new order hidden in the old age. Not all men who lived since John were in the new order, but only those who had ears to hear, who repented, who were not offended by Jesus. To be “in the kingdom” meant to receive the messianic salvation and to enjoy its blessings even while living in the evil age of mortality and sin” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., pp. 204-205).

    “The Kingdom of God is therefore not only the dynamic rule of God revealing itself in history; it is also A NEW REALM OF BLESSING FORETOLD BY THE PROPHETS. Yet its fulfillment took place within history in a way neither the prophets nor contemporary Judaism envisaged” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.205)...

    “The central thesis of this book is that the Kingdom of God is the redemptive reign of God dynamically active to establish his rule among men, and that this Kingdom, which will appear as an apocalyptic act at the end of the age, has already come into human history in the person and mission of Jesus to overcome evil, to deliver men from its power, and to bring them into the blessings of God’s reign. The Kingdom of God involves two great moments: fulfilment within history, and consummation at the end of history. It is precisely this background which provides the setting for the parables of the Kingdom” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.218).

    "A third fact is equally important. While Israel as a whole, including both leaders and people, refused to accept Jesus' offer of the Kingdom, a substantial group did respond in faith. Discipleship to Jesus was not like discipleship to a Jewish rabbi. The rabbis bound their disciples not to themselves but to the Torah; Jesus bound his disciples to himself. The rabbis offered something outside of themselves; Jesus offered himself alone. Jesus required his disciples to surrender without reservation to his authority. They thereby became not only disciples but also douloi, slaves (Matt 10:24 f; 24:45 ff; Luke 12:35 ff, 42 ff). This relationship had no parallel in Judaism. Discipleship to Jesus involved far more than following in his retinue; it meant nothing less than complete personal commitment to him and his message. The reason for this is the presence of the Kingdom of God in Jesus's person and message. In him, men were confronted by God himself" (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., pp.249-50).

    ReplyDelete
  67. Scout at 716

    You do need to write a single viewpoint making your position clear, because your 7 points have a lot to be desired. They are difficult to engage, open to interpretation, and in need of clarification. Such as:

    1. "Jesus is the real word of God in action"?

    The OT is not the word of God? Are you implying I'm using the OT to contradict Jesus?

    2. " The prophets prophesied until John. It does not really admit of the possibility that some of the OT prophecies may reach out to the future beyond John the Baptist"?

    Are you kidding? What about OT prophecies concerning events that are "post" John, the resurrection, coming of the holy spirit, the day of the Lord? Multi-part man covers this point very well.

    3. "Jesus said He fulfilled the prophets"?

    So let's put God in a box and limit the "Christ event" to his first coming, especially when the OT specifically prophesies his second coming as the future hope of Israel (see Romans 11:26-27).

    4. "OT predictive prophecy does not have a explicit position on the list from 2 Tim.3:16-17"?

    Really? Doesn't this list include " all (OT) Scripture"?

    5. "The authors of the NT saw all OT Scripture as being about Jesus"?

    Exactly how do OT prophecies concerning Jesus' future kingship and kingdom EXCLUDE Jesus?

    6. " ARMSTRONG tools, wild speculation "?

    One of the tragedies of being consumed with Armstrong heresies is not being able to distinguish between what some fool CLAIMS the Bible says from what the Bible ACTUALLY says. Please don't confuse me with Dave Pack!

    7. " OT prophecies do not overlay the NT prophecies given by Jesus in Matt.24 and Revelation "?

    Another attempt to put God in a box, and a blatant contradiction of 2 Tim.3:16-17.

    Most scholars recognize the book of Daniel as having relevance to both the Olivet prophecy and Revelation. Daniel has been called the " seedplot" of prophecy, Matthew 24 the "blade and ear", and Revelation the " full grown fruit".

    Another point that actually contradicts some of your previous points is that Daniel is the only OT book concerning that which we have received from Christ himself urging its specific study (Matthew 24:15)!!! Sounds like it has future relevance!

    Not only does Daniel overlay the NT, but it contains some of the best explanations found in the entire Bible on certain NT doctrines (see Dan.2:44, 7:18, 12:2-3, 11).

    Your points need work Scout. I'm not sure where you are coming from.

    ReplyDelete
  68. BP8 wrote, “Scout and others see a huge disconnect between what the NT says about this restitution and the OT prophets vivid description of it.”

    This is an interesting point that I would like to consider further. I would take exception to the word “vivid”. I think the descriptions are rather spare but to the point. Peter stated in Acts 3:

    “. . . that he may send the Messiah appointed for you, that is, Jesus, who must remain in heaven until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through his holy prophets.”

    BP8 draws on this to demonstrate that Old Testament prophecy extends into the future beyond the time of Jesus. This is, of course, the long-standing Armstrongist position and multi-part man follows that hermeneutic. Whereas, the statement of Jesus in Luke 16:16 is that “The Law and the Prophets were until John came”. But does this mean that the prophetic vision ended when the waypoint of John the Baptist was reached? Such a view would overlook that fact that Jesus himself is a Prophet, may expand on Old Testament prophecies or introduce new prophecies. The OT prophets had the announcement of the restoration of all things but Jesus has the elaboration of it. The prophets proclaimed the concept and Jesus instantiated according to his will.

    For example, Jesus said the following about this restitution: “Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things, but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased.” (More than one Millerite, including HWA, styled himself as the Elijah in contravention to this clear statement of Jesus) This ties the fulfillment of the restoration prophecies to the emergence of John the Baptist. Once again, “The Law and the Prophets were until John came.” However, this does not mean that The Prophet Jesus cannot take this topic further. And he does. Jesus states in Revelation 21:5:

    And he who was seated on the throne said: “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

    The detail of how Jesus is making this restitution is described, to the extent that we can now receive it, in the book of Revelation and elsewhere in the NT. And the same Absolute Being who said “I am making all things new” also inspired John of Patmos to write: “And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.” Multi-part man has yet to address this directly although I have not rummaged through everything that he has written. Ezekiel’s temple is an allegory of salvation in Jesus given to a people in abject captivity in imagery that they could rejoice in. And the prophets prophesied until John then they were overtaken by events – Jesus himself was here.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  69. Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    How successful has the ‘church’ been in fulfilling its mission to the world?

    According to Wikipedia’s “List_of_religious_populations” Christianity makes up 31% of the world’s population.

    Islam, Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist, Hinduism, and Buddhism at 62.28% is double Christianity’s population.

    Islam is also the fastest growing religion today.

    Rev 2:5b I will come unto thee quickly, and will REMOVE THY CANDLESTICK out of his place, except thou repent.
    Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm ... I will SPEW THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH.

    The letters in Revelation are bookended by threats of rejection by Jesus Christ.

    Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem
    Isa 49:6b I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    The point of the above is that it is only through Israel the Kingdom, Abraham’s great nation, that God’s salvation can be extended to the ends of the earth.

    Eze 37:28  Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” 

    Israel will achieve this by God, through Jesus Christ, having a dwelling presence among His people.

    “The laws given in Exodus ... were important, but it was the sanctuary that was to be the “nuclear power plant,” energizing the Israelites’ faith and thereby transforming them into a potent, unified channel of divine revelation. While the physical structure of the sanctuary was crucial ... it was the resident Presence of God that made the place powerful, and it was through dynamic interaction with him in worship that the Israelites accessed his holy power” (Roy Gane, Leviticus, Numbers, NIVAC, p.54).

    Ex 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
    Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God ... See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern [typos] shown to thee in the mount.
    Heb 9:24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy [antitypos] of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. (NIV).

    “The tabernacle was intended to serve as a dwelling-place for God in the midst of his people on earth, and it would be completely in keeping with current practice that such an earthly dwelling-place should be a replica of God’s heavenly dwelling place. This of course, is how our author understands the situation” (F.F. Bruce, the Epistle to the Hebrews, revised, NICNT, p.184).

    Ex 25:9a According to all that I show thee, after the pattern [tabnit] of the tabernacle,
    1Ch 28:11a Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof,
    1Ch 28:12 And the pattern [tabit] of all that he had by the spirit...
    1Ch 28:19 All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.

    “The detailed instructions handed over to Solomon deal with temple architecture (28:11-12)... The influence of the tabernacle narrative is clearly evident in the vocabulary and theology of the passage. For example, the word “plan” (tabnit) is the term used to describe the pattern given by God for the construction of the tabernacle; it is found four times in this section (28;11, 12, 18, 19; cf. Ex 25:9, 40). ... For the Chronicler, the temple is the continuation of all the tabernacle represented in Israelite religion...” (Andrew E. Hill, 1 & 2 Chronicles, NIVAC, p.325).

    ReplyDelete
  70. Part 2

    From the “tabernacle” and “temple” dispensations of the OC there were two dwellings places of God; or there were two tabernacle/temples - one in heaven and one on the earth.

    The implication from covenant dwelling, with God in heaven and His people Israel on the earth, there is a need for an earthly and heavenly temple.

    When there is no more sin and death God will be with his people on the earth and hence no need for a temple. But until that time there is a need for another temple.

    Gal 4:24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.
    Gal 4:25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
    Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

    Ge 25:1 Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah.
    Ge 25:2 She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah.

    Zec 8:3a Thus says the LORD: I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.

    It is suggested that Keturah corresponds to the Jerusalem of the Messianic Age; and that the six sons of Keturah, compared to the one son of Sarah, pictures the bountiful spiritual harvest of the coming age.

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Rev 7:15 Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple;
    and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
    Rev 7:17 ... the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;

    Revelation 7 is a retro-prospective insert in the chronological storyline of Revelation. The prospective part pictures Christ and the Saints — the Melchizedek priesthood — in heaven during the Messianic Age.

    [The word “temple” occurs 12 times in Revelation with 9 referring directly to the heavenly temple].

    Under the Hagar administration of the OC there was a temple in heaven and a temple on earth, that is Solomon’s Temple. (I have not included the Second Temple as God, through Jesus Christ, did not have a dwelling presence in it).

    Under the Keturah Administration of the NC there will be a temple in heaven as per Revelation 7 and a temple on earth as per Ezekiel 40-48.

    Ge 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
    1Ki 6:23 In the inner sanctuary he made a pair of cherubim of olive wood, each ten cubits high.
    1Ki 6:27 He placed the cherubim inside the innermost room of the temple, with their wings spread out.

    It is suggested that the garden of Eden, [and Zion], is a type of the heavenly holy place. Adam and Eve in the earthly Garden pictured Lucifer and his angels in the heavenly garden. When Adam and Eve sinned they were thrown out of the Garden and cherubim were placed to keep them out; but when Satan and demons sinned they retained the heavenly Garden but were barred access to the heavenly holy of holies. It is suggested that the huge cherubim in Solomon’s temple picture them guarding the heavenly Most Holy Place.

    When Satan and the demons are removed from the heavenly holy place and Christ and the saints take their place then the heavenly priesthood will resume.

    Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, show the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern [toknit, not tabnit as above].

    So that in the Keturah Administration of the NC there will not only be two temples one in heaven (Rev 7) and one on the earth (Eze 40-48) but there will be two priesthoods in action, the Melchizedek priesthood in heaven and the Levitical priesthood on earth.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Anon. 641
    Good job on another thorough presentation on the subject. A question I have is, would we really need 9 chapters (Ezekiel 40-48) written in such intricate detail if Ezekiel's temple was mere allegory to give an uneducated people in abject captivity hope? Is this language something they could actually understand and comprehend (Scout 737)?

    Also, concerning Scout's war on ARMSTRONG predictive prophetic heresy, "opposing what Armstrong says about these topics", I find it interesting that his idea (and mine) of a future restitution spoken by the prophets is an idea shared by many in orthodox Christianity.

    In an article posted on "gotquestions.com", WHAT IS THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM AND SHOULD IT BE UNDERSTOOD LITERALLY, we read,

    "The Bible tells us that when Christ returns to earth, He will establish Himself as king in Jerusalem, sitting on the throne of David, Luke 1:32-33. At that time, the covenants (Abrahamic/Davidic) will be fulfilled as Israel is regathered from the nations, converted (Zech.12:10-14), and RESTORED to the land under the rule of the Messiah.

    This (time of restitution of all things) will be a time of peace (Mic.4:2-4), Isa.32:17-18, 61:7-10), and comfort (Isa.40:1-2). A time of obedience (Jer.31:33), holiness (Isa.35:8), truth (Isa.65:16), and the knowledge of God (Isa.11:9).

    Christ will rule as King (Isa.9:3-7, 11:1-10), Nobles and Governors will also rule (Isa.32:1, Matt.19:28), and Jerusalem will be the political center of the world (Zech.8:3)".

    Clearly we see no reservation whatsoever is using the OT prophets as depicted in Acts 3:21 describing the blessings of Messianic rule.

    Another Got Questions article, " Will There Be Animal Sacrifices During the Millennial Kingdom " states (after dealing with objections), "most premillennial scholars agree that the purpose of animal sacrifices at that time is (not to take away sin but) memorial in nature, as object lessons for the sinner, to teach (the profane) how offensive sin is to a holy, righteous God. Animal sacrifices will serve that purpose as a reminder of sins year by year (Heb.10:3).

    This is "orthodox Christianity", not Armstrong heresy!

    ReplyDelete
  72. Multi-part Man wrote, “When there is no more sin and death God will be with his people on the earth and hence no need for a temple. But until that time there is a need for another temple.”

    I scanned one of your Parts and happened to see the statement above. The statement does not have validity.

    The earthly temple is about managing the separation between God and humans. It was a bridge. God’s zone was the Holy of Holies. Humans had the areas external to the Holy of Holies. A priest entered the Holy of Holies once a year with ceremony. Otherwise, the priesthood supervised reconciliation at a distance through ceremonies and sacrifices. With regard to communication and atonement, the temple, its services and its priesthood were the means of bridging the gap between God and humanity. Though Moses was instrumental in setting up the temple system and communicating the accompanying body of legislation, he did not assert a closed system. Instead, Moses said another Prophet would stand up, like him, and Israel would need to listen to that great Prophet. So, the system was yet open and modifiable.

    As a bridge, the temple was the forerunner of Jesus. Jesus replaced the temple and became the Bridge for mankind. The incarnate Jesus is both God and man just as the temple had a divine zone and a human zone. Moreover, Jesus is the perfect Bridge with a sacrifice that brings actual salvation rather than symbolizing salvation as the earthy temple did. The earthly temple is no longer needed because Jesus serves the role of the temple. He even characterized himself as the temple in John 2.

    If a temple is required as long as there is sin and death and will have to be established based on Ezekiel’s prophecy in the future, why do we not have a temple now? This is a time of sin and death and our temple is the body of Christ consisting of Jesus and the Ekklesia of the children of God. It has been so for two millennia.

    I believe you are trying to provide heroic support for the Armstrongist view of the Sabbath and the Law of Moses through the putative perpetuation of the Temple. I believe that, instead, you have unintentionally constructed a view that is hostile to Jesus and Christianity. And your argument so far just does not hold water. I may have missed something. If you were to write a paragraph, a precis, of six sentences or so laying out the essential structure of your argument, I would be interested in reading it. Otherwise, I believe this debate has now run aground.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  73. I made the following statement in my 7:47 comment, "As a bridge, the temple was the forerunner of Jesus."

    I have reconsidered the term "forerunner" and believe it has implications that make it a poor fit in this statement. I prefer the metaphor found in Colossians 2:17:

    "These (referring to activities associated with the temple) are a shadow of things to come but the solid body thereof is that of the Annointed. (New Testament, David Bentley Hart, Parenthetical is mine.)

    Using the wording of Paul, my statement should have been:

    "As a bridge, the temple was a shadow of Jesus."

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  74. I made the following statement in my 7:47 comment, "As a bridge, the temple was the forerunner of Jesus."

    I have reconsidered the term "forerunner" and believe it has implications that make it a poor fit in this statement. I prefer the metaphor found in Colossians 2:17:

    "These (referring to activities associated with the temple) are a shadow of things to come but the solid body thereof is that of the Annointed. (New Testament, David Bentley Hart, Parenthetical is mine.)

    Using the wording of Paul, my statement should have been:

    "As a bridge, the temple was a shadow of Jesus."

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  75. BP8, some years back I read that there were something like 2 to 3 million Americans who believe in Premillennialism in its various forms.

    See below for ten distinctive teachings on Premillennialism.

    HWA taught a mix of premillenialist concepts.

    His claim that the premillennial gospel that he taught hadn’t been taught for nineteen hundred years was not true.

    Premillennialism, as we know, was previously know as Chiliasm (cp. Rev 20:5).

    Andrew Fausset, twenty years before HWA was born, wrote:

    “The mistake of the Chiliasts was, they restricted the kingdom to the terrestrial part. Besides this earthly glory, there shall be the heavenly glory of the saints reigning above" (1 Corinthians, JFB, Vol.3, p.298).

    I have laid out in my previous posts that I believe that Christ and the Saints are going to replace Satan and the Demons in the heavenly places during the Messianic Age. But Jesus will have a dwelling presence in Ezekiel’s Temple and so animal sacrifices will be required for the “purifying of the flesh” (cp. Heb 9:13):

    "The majority of dispensationalists have argued that the sacrifices are memorials to the sacrifice of Christ, with no atoning character. However, THE IDEA THAT THESE ARE MEMORIAL SACRIFICES IS NO WHERE APPARENT IN EZEKIEL, and it is specifically claimed by Ezekiel that these offerings will make atonement (45:15, 17, 20)" (Ian M. Duguid, Ezekiel, Terry Muck, General Editor, The NIV Application Commentary (NIVAC), (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1999), p.521).

    Eze 43:20 You are to take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar and on the four corners of the upper ledge and all around the rim, and so purify the altar and make atonement for it.

    Eze 45:19 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple, on the four corners of the upper ledge of the altar and on the gateposts of the inner court.

    Eze 45:20 You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple. (NIV).

    "In vv 15 and 17 [of chapter 45] the expiatory significance of the sacrifice is emphatically expressed. In 43:20 and 45:19f it can be seen that the expiatory power is especially attributed to the blood" (Walter Zimmerli, Ezekiel 2 - A Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel Chapters 25-48, p.479).

    Regards

    In the article on "Pemillennialism" in the "Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy" it states:

    "The ten distinctive teachings summarize the primary tenets of premillennialism:

    1. God has promised a literal kingdom to restored Israel (Isaiah 11:9-16; 60:18-21).

    2. God will give Abraham's descendants the land He promised to them forever (Genesis 17:7-8; Psalm 105:8-11).

    3. God's covenant with Israel has never been forfeited or cancelled (Leviticus 26:40-44).

    4. The nation of Israel will come back to inherit the land forever (Ezekiel 37:1-14; Jeremiah 31:35-37).

    5. The second coming of Christ will result in the establishment of a literal kingdom on earth (Revelation 11:15).

    6. The kingdom of Christ will last 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-6).

    7. The Temple of Ezekiel's vision will literally exist during the millennial reign of Christ (Ezekiel 40-48).

    8. Restored Israel and the raptured church will reign with Christ on earth (Revelation 1:6; 5:10; 20:4-5).

    9. God's promises concerning Jerusalem will be fulfilled literally (Psalm 132:13-14); Isaiah 62:1-2; 65:17-25).

    10. The throne of David will be set up in Jerusalem with Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Israel, the Son of David, literally ruling upon it in His millennial kingdom (2 Sam 7:12-16; Luke 1:32-33).

    (Ed Hindson & David Hocking, "Premillennialism," The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, Tim LaHaye and Edward E. Hindson, General Editors, (Eugene: Harvest House Publishers, 2004), p.280).

    ReplyDelete
  76. I am not sure why BP8 and Multi-part Man are beating the drum for Pre-millennialism. It is not germane directly to a discussion of the temple and the Law of Moses. Multi-part Man is trying to use Ezekiel's vision of a temple to leverage the Armstrongist view of the Law of Moses, seemingly with no consideration for Pauline theology. BP8 introduced Pre-millennialism to support literalism in Biblical interpretation.

    LeHaye's people package Pre-millennialism to include Ezekiel's temple. Hardly anything that countervails in the debate. The bare bones of Pre-millennialism is that Jesus returns before the Millennium. I hold to a version of Pre-millennialism and you know how I interpret Ezekiel's vision of the temple. In particular, LaHaye's list of distinctives seems to lack supersessionism. LaHayes' Pre-millennialism is just an interpretation among other interpretations and has many forms.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  77. Scout

    I introduced premillennialism as the natural conclusion to Peter's statement in Acts 3 concerning "the time of restitution of all things" which follows the return of Christ. Yes, it is an example of literalism in Biblical interpretation, which, as you know is a broad, complicated subject which should be considered on a case by case basis.

    Please don't mistake this as some kind of support for LeHaye. I've never read or listened to any of his material nor do I plan to. Also, my belief should in no way be taken as agreement with the foolish claims made by the Armstrongs, Pack, or others on this subject matter.

    It's not my fault that the law, sabbath, and holydays are used in a favorable light in what I believe to be future literal prophecies. I accept it for what it is, and so be it if it happens to confirm what I currently believe on the present validity of those topics. I'm sure you see this as confirmation bias, but is it any different than beliefs that espouse "Jesus everything", then makes His example and teachings (concerning the sabbath) of none effect by self serving arguments on the "covenants" and "fulfillment of scripture" that are open to interpretation?

    We have gone round and round on these themes many times, and as fun as it has been, we just have to agree to disagree.



    ReplyDelete
  78. This topic has run its course for the present. Recent comments have focused on Ezekiel's Temple which is a sub-topic to the main post. The fundamental issue is that Armstrongists believe that the Law of Moses is still in force and that under the New Covenant, it has become more stringent and is now written on the heart of everyone who is an Armstrongist. Yet, they do not observe the Law of Moses in its full statement. The much vaunted Law of Moses under Armstrongism has become a creature of decisions made by WCG Church Administration in the past and similar denominational bodies in the present.

    One important feature of the Law of Moses is that it requires the death penalty for certain transgressions. Armstrongist theology uses a dubious argument to claim that these death penalties are no longer a reqirement. The consquences of such an error in Armstrongist theology are large. Erroneously dropping a part of the Law of Moses that is actually still in force means that salvation, under Armstrongist soteriology, is cancelled.

    The Ezekiel's Temple theory further confuses this situation. It puts forward that the Mosaic legislation is not only in force but even parts that are declared obsolete in the New Testament, such as sacrifices, will be reinstituted in the Millennium. This must surely include the death penalties under the Law of Moses. The Ezekiel's Temple argument asserts that the Law of Moses, in its entirety as written in the Torah, is in force. And for some unaddressed reason, parts of the Law are being held temporarily in abeyance during this era. And this future implementation in toto lends a present gravitas to the Law of Moses and to those parts in abeyance in addition. It is as if we should all be in ideological conformance to those temporarily suspended parts of the Torah. Maybe those suspended parts are written on the heart of Armstrongists and maybe not. Who knows.

    Not only are there scriptures that clearly stand against this theory, the theory lacks an essential logical consistency.

    Scout

    ReplyDelete
  79. Scout.

    You are right, this thread for now has run its course. However, the debate is not over, for as I said earlier, there's a lot of theology to consider here. Even so, you seem to imply that some things went unaddressed?

    When I suggested (at 725) that God's dealing with the individual Christian is different to that of His dealing with "nations", you called this a novel assertion needing more exegesis. Though not fully living up to your expectations, multi-part man and myself have attempted to show that the key to understanding these ambiguities with the law is CONTEXT, time and place, the who, what, when, where, and whys of the matter.

    The starting place is our agreement that the law is a monolith. Yet, it's obvious there are parts of the law that have no application to Christians. Why not? Time and place! Does that fact make the law obsolete? No.

    You make some interesting points and offer critical objections. You write, " the Ezekiel temple theory puts forward that the Mosaic legislation is not only in force, but even parts that have been declared obsolete in the NT (such as animal sacrifices) will be reinstituted in the Millennium ".

    Also, " for some unaddressed reason (???), parts of the law are being held temporarily in abeyance during this era. And the future implementation in toto lends a present gravitas to the law of Moses as to those parts".

    The simple answer to this, and the only way we will have logical consistency, is TIME and PLACE!

    When Christ returns, "the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord Christ and He (along with his apostles and saints) shall reign" (Rev. 11:15, 2:26-27, Matt.19). He is once again establishing a Theocracy, and by your own admission, "the law of Moses (a monolith) is designed for a national (and worldwide) theocracy".

    In the Millennium, because of TIME and PLACE, the laws of the Theocracy will once again kick in, because, as you put it at 6/15, 601, " governance requires laws and penalties for the preservation of social order". Theocratic laws for crime and punishment, civil administration, etc. are clearly not for the church now, but under those future conditions they will be utilized.

    You also say, "there is a solid body of legislation contained in the NT and it is the law of Christ". For the church now, yes. But for the heathen later?

    A logical question to ask is, what good is the law of Christ to the profane (the Egypt of Zech.14)? At that time, they don't even know God. They have no faith, which " without it is impossible to please Him" (Heb.11:6). They are not subject to God or His law (Rom.8:7). The sacrifice of Christ would be foolish to them (1 Cor.1:18) for "the natural man receives not the things of the spirit for they are foolishness unto him" (1 Cor.2:14).

    So how will the nations be governed? "How shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed or heard? Faith comes by hearing and accepting the word of God" (Romans 10:14-17).

    So at a future TIME and PLACE called the millennial reign of Christ, we read that literally "the law will go forth from Zion", "the earth will be full of the knowledge of God", and "when God's judgements are in the earth the world will learn righteousness", (Isaiah 2, 11, 26:9).

    This is not a theory lacking logical consistency. CONTEXT answers everything! Armstrong's heretical misuse of the law does not change the facts.










    ReplyDelete
  80. BP8 8:07

    You're welcome to the last word.


    Scout

    ReplyDelete