For many years now we have been regaled by wild stories from the Great Bwana Bob Thiel about how amazing he is and his so-called church is. There has never been a more miraculous COG in the history of humanity nor has the church ever seen a greater man than what we see in the Great Bwana Bob. No one has been persecuted more than he has and no COG has ever suffered as horribly as his church has.
That all came to a screeching halt when the most persecuted family in the church stepped forward with their horror stories:
Samuel Kitchen writes:
Now Herbert W Armstrong came in the spirit and office of Elijah the prophet. He came to “prepare the way of the Lord” as mentioned in Malachi 3, and 4 explains, and he came to “restore all things” as Jesus Himself said in Matthew 17:11.If God didn’t send such an individual, He would allow “utter destruction” to curse this earth(Mal. 4:5-6).In Matthew 24:22, concerning worldwide destruction, Christ says “but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”So this man has something to do with raising up the elect of God. This single human man is not only important to God, but also those with that man are important to God!!!The fate of the World depends on them!The Worldwide Church of God is in 100% agreement and support of everything Mr. Herbert W Armstrong taught!Where he goes, we go. We do not run, we not retreat, or depart from God’s leadership through one man!While he was alive was Herbert W Armstrong available to every member of the Church? Could he simultaneously appear in every congregation of the Worldwide Church of God? No!Now instead of everywhere in 1986 and prior, we have EVERYWHERE 1986- FUTURE!And while not every member of every congregation received the teachings from the apostle of Christ simultaneously while he was yet alive, members are receiving those teachings, this preaching, as they do through time.How are we bound to such a work now, when the servant of God died so many years ago? By the indwelling of the Holy Spirit! Without it… WE HAVE NO CONNECTION!!!!! We have no reason to obey it. We have no reason to hold fast to it otherwise! But those of us who have the Holy Spirit dwelling and leading in us, recognize the authority of Jesus Christ, and the work of God being done in the flesh, we forsake everything in surrender to Jesus Christ! Those who have not yet surrendered wholly to Jesus Christ do not understand why we do what we do!!!They say we ought to join or become another group or church. They think the job started through Herbert W Armstrong is not going to finish, since he died. They think the physical aspect is needed! It is a SPIRITUAL WORK!!!!And while there may be great distance between people, those with God’s Holy Spirit are on a total different frequency than the rest of this world! The connection will always be made!So back to 1 Kings 19.Elijah was fleeing Jezebel because she wanted him dead. His colleges were attacked and the students and teachers were murdered.He ran a days journey into the wilderness, and here received two meals from an angel of God.The first meal was to recover from what he was then experiencing!Think of the 1970’s and “liberal period”.Jesus Christ through Mr. Armstrong sustained the membership who held fast. Without that spiritual food, many would have STARVED SPIRITUALLY!The second meal was for the intent of preserving the servant of God for a journey he was going to make! Now from 1981- forward we have received spiritual food, through Mr Armstrong, that is aiding and assisting the membership of the Worldwide Church of God to continue to EXIST for the last 40 years.
Apparently everything that Herb did prior to 1981 was wrong. In 1981, when he supposedly put the church back on track thenthe church was on the right path
For the first time in ourchurch history, the Church of God was organized right in 1981!Prior to 1981, the Church was organized to a “corporation” pattern. There was a board of directors that could fire Mr Armstrong, but they wouldn’t.But 1981, Christ through Mr Armstrong put the Church back on the right track, and placed ONE MAN IN CHARGE of EVERYTHING via corporation sole! The government of God was restored to the Worldwide Church of God. And the work, the congregations etc got organized rightly under Mr Armstrong.
This was done in the state of Arizona.
Then, forty years later, prophecy came alive and intense persecution started on the one true COG family:
Forty years later, was the year 2021.My family was living in Arizona.We had been fighting for the right to exist as the Worldwide Church of God.We had a window washing business, and we had been fighting with a conglomerate of other industry leaders, who used to be in the Worldwide Church of God! They got together and wanted us to be ran out of town. One man stood up for us and wanted to include us with the “network” because he figured they all would do better with us than against us.So we fought underhanded, dirty, thieving tactics, with people pretending to be our company in order to disauade customers from using our services. We had our home taken from us. We were burglarized. We had death threats. We had federal locks on our post office boxes, that had to be removed, we had a lot of “shady” things happen to us, because we were online sharing what we was finding about the Worldwide Church of God and Herbert W Armstrong.Through us, interest was expanded and explored. We had people come out of their churches in disagreement with us, trying to out do us in making these truths available. They thought they were better than us.So through persecution we ended up in Arizona.And there in Arizona, my family was killed.A man who claimed to work for the cia, wanted my dad one day saying it was coming. He wanted us to know it was nothing personal, it was just orders. He had to protect his own family, he said.That may have sounded like words of madman, but when a grandmother is murdered in the hospital, and your mom dies mysteriously and then your dad dies mysteriously, that warning had more weight. We didn’t take the warning lightly. We trusted God. And it just so happens that my dad died in 2021, at the closure of what began in 1981 with the corporation sole.From that point forward I’ve been focusing on raising the alarms to brethren, and to continue to show the Worldwide Church of God does still exist.Now I’ve personally come across some people who has tried to destroy myself and this Church! They have tried to put brother against brother, in order to destroy what is held in trust!
The last man standing! Even wimpy beta heretic Bwana Bob cannot measure up to this!
Now because of this division someone else has started, the threat of some dissident sweeping in to take legal control of the name of the Worldwide Church of God has come.And with family gone, I’ve been told I am the last one standing!In 1983, the paperwork of the corporation sole in Arizona went dark.In 1984 Mr Armstrong returned to Pasadena, and was preparing spiritual food for all of us these last forty years.If Elijah received food to survive the attack from the state government, first, then the second time was meant for 1983-forward to our time, after the receivership, meant for a LONG JOURNEY! Jezebel destroyed the parts of the Elijah Work she could get her hands on!You see how the spirit of Jezebel works?And so forty years later, the Elijah Work still exists and we who have God’s Holy Spirit are connected with that work!And when I read Elijah’s words in 1 Kings 19:10,14, I am moved emotionally. Because out of my personally family, I am alone for now. We’ve been struck by the enemy, and he seeks our destruction!Now Mr Armstrong said there will BE NO ELISHA TO FOLLOW HIM! I agree.In 1 Kings 19, it is a prophecy concerning the end of the Elijah Work.Our work will end, with the rise of the final resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire, a combine of ten toes, or ten nations or groups of nations in Europe, calling themselves “the United States of Europe”!But no, as some mock me, the servant of God did not “go back to Egypt” when he travelled to Mt. Sinai. He was looking for the next instructions from the God of Heaven.And we too, need to look to God and Jesus Christ as our savior and Head! We are connected to the Elijah work if we have God’s Holy Spirit! And we only will have God’s Holy Spirit if we surrender to Jesus Christ and wholly obey Him!Some are saying they are the 7,000 prepared who have not bowed their knees to Baal. When the two witnesses stand up, they will be ready to add to our membership! There won’t be “another church” competing. We either will be together as the true church or we won’t be.As for this legal sweep to grab for legal power over trademark. Merchants fight over that. And our God will destroy the merchants of this earth and avenge our people. A whore is going to be a whore. So a Jezebel will act like a Jezebel.The book of Obadiah speaks on these things. God be praised!
There is one lasting sad legacy of Armstrogism, and that is that it helped create a lot of mentally unstable people! Hundreds of Elijahs have self-appointed themselves over the decades. Prophets and prophetesses regularly visited Pasadena with their prophetic messages. Some pretested with large signs parading up and down the street in front of the Hall of Ad as others tried their best to draw away church members.
I can state with absolute confidence that no one is going to follow Samuel. The few that did previously have all abandoned him after his epic failure at the Feast in Israel/Jordan.
Others, like Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland, and Bob Thiel, attempted to start their own groups, supposedly with God's official blessing, which now have turned out to be miserable failures.
Even the mother, GCI is facing difficulties. Are we finally witnessing the end of Armstrongism?
Even though Mr. Kitchen is woefully delusional , I have to give him credit; he is a true believer. I only wish his faith was in the Jesus of scripture instead of a man who was equally delusional.
ReplyDeleteTkach can shut them down for using name Worldwide Church of God
ReplyDeleteJust Wow! Actual wow! I had a couple years of Embarrassing College, and wasn't so hot at speech class or Ambassador Club. Maybe I should whip out my concordance, start making authoritarian and prophetic shit up about myself, and perhaps garnering (pun intentional!) some attention for myself.
ReplyDeleteNah! That kind of attention is just as bad as the type I might have received had I had enough brownie points to be sent into the field back in the day! Who even wanted those crappy Plymouth lease cars anyway?
The real heroes were the ones who stood up to HWA and the power structure he had in place. Kind of like we do here, today. One of my time machine fantasies is that we could somehow transport the internet back to the early 1970s so that HWA could read all of our comments as Bob, Sam, Dave, Gerald, Ron, the board members of UCG and COGwa are forced to do!
Heh heh heh! Merry Christmas, COGlodyte wannabe leaders!
Kitchen needs to read the Armstrong dissident sites. The body of evidence doesn't lie. Herb ran his church as a totalitarian abusive cult. Members were robbed of their adulthood rights and treated as literal children. I still remember the original bible correspondence course where it stated that if you don't have a pencil in front of you, to go and get it. That's what you say to a child.
ReplyDeleteKitchen like Herb, must believe that doctrines matter but people's lives don't. Just like the Pharisees who criticized Christ for healing on the Sabbath.
I really assume there is one man-child writing all these “anonymous” comments. I mean come on.
DeleteMost reports on the Worldwide Church of God, are false reports.
Reports were made, and that is a matter of fact, but after digging into who gave the report, they were proven false.
Most of the time, they are passing a judgement on a situation secondhand or their hand, and usually the source is anonymous!
So yeah it’s like a transvestite. Something obviously spurred the individual to give such a report. But I am not sure “what” is giving the report. Talking about trans-movement! I call it a bowl movement.
When all the reports are made like a transvestite explaining to you how him having testicles doesn’t make him a man, you really gotta question the sanity of those who give the reports!
I mean you shrink back into shadows and darkness and anonymity, and bring a report.
If you can’t stand under the light of open air, and say what you want to say, what you have to say is a bunch of bull! What cowards! You don’t want scrutiny! You don’t want investigation! You want everyone to care about perverts giving false reports more than the truth!
When I read reports being said, no name is mentioned about the transgressor. Only that they was “somehow “ associated with Herbert W Armstrong and the WCG.
It is truly a trans-movement. A pervert telling you what he/she is, and you believing his/her report on someone they dislike, is INSANITY!
It’s not the truth.
Doesn’t mean something didn’t happen. Doesn’t mean it was right or wrong. But when a report is false and cannot be verified, it should not be believed. And that’s how view the false reports. They describe something happening, but they are told by the insane.
Samuel, according to the late Margaret Singer, author of 'Cults in our midst,' just about everytime her researchers investigated multiple complaints about a group being cultish, the accusations proved true. Thousands of HWA's present and former members have lifelong mental problems stemming from church attendance. And in the broader context, it's part of contemporary Christianity. The televangelists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, etc are all the same church culture with cosmetic differences. They all treat their members as children, are anti rights and anti freedom. Their dissident sites all make the same complaints. Former members universally mention about feeling free, being able to be authentic, and feeling responsible for their own lives. HWA plugged into this toxic culture via his eleven year apprenticeship in COG7. Instead of following Christ, he chose to follow other churches. Herb extensively stole all manner of deceitful ploys from these groups. Most of his "never before understood in 2000 years" is just plagiarism on his part.
Delete“According to”…so and so, about investigations of OTHERS….she found the accusations true.
DeleteA false witness is evidence something did happen! I agree something happened! But a perverted perspective coming from a pervert, doesn’t make it true. Many of those who gave similar reports simply echoed what they heard from others.
Now you speak of mental problems from attendance.
My personal experience, was people who opposed the beliefs of the Bible, pushed and added pressure, and tore and ripped , and did much damage, in order to hurt those who believed what was taught!
The major hurt and mental damage done was AFTER the death of Herbert W Armstrong, under Tkach, and other men who departed from what was taught to them! They had their own ideas and deprogramming programs, in order to “transform” the weaker in faith, like a lgbtq member does a great deal harm in teaching and brainwashing and working with children who are figuring life out!
They created cognitive dissonance. They created the mental trauma and turmoil!!
And they would not leave us believes alone. I remember under Tkach jr, being taken into a closet and told to sing Christmas songs again and again! Is that good? I mean it was meant to turn me against my parents and to cry “trauma” because I couldn’t keep Christmas! Wow. I know from personal experience who did what. It wasn’t because I attended. It was because those who opposed this Church and our beliefs wanted to scrub us off the map and they seemed to have unlimited power to “apply pressure” and do as much damage as possible!!!
I mean Tkach used attempted kidnappings, and almost dying from being poisoned and all that suffering, just to attempt to get us to “let lose of a specific way of life, that they opposed”!!!
I’ll keep focusing the attention on the perps! The perverted, the aggressor, those evil men and women who chose to hurt others while falsely claiming the name of Worldwide Church of God!
The truth set me free. God delivered and saved me and my family for all those years! I saw the miracles no one could explain without God or Jesus Christ intervening!
Those who oppose the truth, always say we are against freedom. Why won’t you let us alone and be free to worship God as we believe we ought to? Why do you enter our homes and hurt our people? Oh because you were hurt by someone else? Deal with your mental instability, and work out your own traumas.
I chose to believe God, after going through hell. Don’t condemn me because I chose to stick with God!
You painting a picture like that, is very similar to watching someone in an insane asylum paint the walls with their own feces. Yeah they got a message to tell. But no sound mind gives in to that mindset. Your picture latches onto hurt people. You latch on to broken minds and broken people who are seeking reason for what happened.
I’m just saying the truth and I am going to keep pointing out the real perps! You can do what you want! But you don’t want us to worship God in the way we want! You view us as a roadblock to your success!
I don’t want to see the insane succeed, because their minds are being deceived by demons and evil attitudes and I want to see them healed. Jesus Christ is the only solution. So I have hope even for you! But this is why you post on websites like this. This is the ward where the insane gather.
Christ has come to heal the sick, and that even means the mentally sick.
The truth shall set you free.
Samuel, what you're ignoring is that the coercion and all manner of evil tactics used under by Tkach Jr, and his minions was a continuation of what existed under HWA's leadership. When HWA started his church, he was its god and defined the church culture. As the church grew and he became "secure in the saddle," he made it more tyrannical, especially after the death of his wife. My minister in the 1970's insisted on a 'counseling session' during which he attempted to convince me to let him possess me. He use to look at me in Spokesman's club as if I was taking food from babies mouths since I refused. I had a similar experience with my last minister in the 1980s. These men knew that the Herb church culture permitted this. They would not have risked their jobs otherwise. I've been reading HWAs literature since the mid 1960s, and not once did a booklet, article appear, and to the best of my knowledge, a sermon, sermonette, Bible study given about following God's lead in members lives. Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer and similar taught this, but NEVER HWA. Only in recent times, thanks to the internet have the splinters taught this, and then only look broadly apply it to the church. The idea of God leading individual Christians is still shunned. My point is that HWA and his minions are so tyrannical that they have been usurping the heavenly role of Christ Himself.
DeleteThey didn't stop in robbing members of their natural rights, but robbed Christ as well. And this is the man you have put on a pedestal.
See! No mention of the minister’s name! You aren’t giving a true report! Tell me who those ministers are! You told the story!
DeleteAnd as for your “testimony” of not finding anything. You dug way too shallow. I mean I’ve found plenty where the Church taught the members to follow Christ. You are anonymous. Tell me the names of those ministers. Tell me your name.
Samuel, the late Liberace successfully sued the Mirror newspaper for claiming that he was gay. After his death, a body of evidence proved that he was in fact gay.
DeleteWhich is why blogs shy away from publicly accusing wrong doers. I will say that one of the ministers has appeared on this blog, and I'm confident that many of his former members would believe me based on their own personal dealings with him. Why don't you practice what you complain to me about by giving details about where you claim the church taught its members to follow Christ? Which booklet/s and articles?
Well, I guess I owe Lonnie an apology. Some weeks ago I entered a somewhat sarcastic comment about his use of exclamation marks, (seemed to quickly get under his skin). Not speaking about the 'value' of remarks made by either, I now recognize Samuel Kitchen as the king of exclamation points!!! (Assuming this is an actual post of what he wrote).
ReplyDeleteDid Kitchen leave out the part about UFOs , Loch Nest Monster, and the Manson Family? Come on Kitchen, spill the rest of the story!
ReplyDeleteLonnie may however be still the king of capitalized NOTs.
ReplyDeleteSamuel Kitchen wrote: "And with family gone, I’ve been told I am the last one standing!" -- does that mean his brothers are now dead as well? Sorry to hear that.
ReplyDeleteWCG. All for naught.
ReplyDeleteNow Mr Armstrong said there will BE NO ELISHA TO FOLLOW HIM! I agree.
ReplyDeleteWhen did he say that?
IF he did, a lot of WCG ministers forgot about it during 1986. When members said it during Spokesman Club meetings, ministers didn't correct them.
As I recall, even Gerald Waterhouse compared Joseph Tkach Sr. to "Elisha" for a while.
March 6 1981 Worldwide News. "I say to you brethren, no one is going to succeed me... there is no prophecy of an Elisha following Elijah".
DeleteWhat Kitchens is doing is perpetuating a major Armstrong pitfall of putting God in a box. Both insist on God conforming to THEM instead of them conforming to HIM. There are several scriptures declaring that God has His timetable under control and He doesn't need outside help, regardless of who or what one claims to be. Dave Pack take note!
ReplyDeleteAlso, my remembrance of "the liberal period" was that GTA was not trying to change church doctrine, but define (clarify) it through the STP project. For some reason, HWA didn't want to publish a plain doctrinal statement. I don't know why, but my guess is, it was a deliberate choice to control (spoonfeed) information to the member and outsider alike.
Doctrine was primarily scattered hither and yon and dispensed through booklets on various subjects, which posed problems of its own making.
One, most booklets were incomplete and often required a follow up booklet to complete the thread. A good sales tactic!
Two, the booklet method often allowed individual authors to put their own emphasis (spin) on the subject, which often clouded the issue with controversial language, when plain scriptural language could have made the point clear. Examples are
"That we should be called the children of God, to be like Him, bearing the image of the heavenly (1 John 3, 1 Corinthians15). VERSUS 'we shall be God, as God is God', which was a disaster!
Also, the sanctification process (are being saved) was falsely communicated as " qualifying for the kingdom", which gave the absolute wrong impression.
What HWA restored and Kitchens follows now is the same confusion that existed prior to 1981 and has existed since.
Wow. This guy is really sick. He needs help. I wonder if he suffers from an early stage of schizophrenia. Certainly sounds like it.
ReplyDeleteEverybody in COGdom suffers that same sickness to some degree, 3:59! They were promised "the end" in their lifetime by the Wizard of Oz (HWA), and based their entire lives upon that promise. The WW-II generation was young and in their prime when they heard HWA lie to them on the radio back in the 1950s, and they have all pretty much died out and had broken hearts due to the unrequited prophecies. They believed that they weren't going to die, but would be caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus Christ who was returning to establish Armstrongism as God's government on Earth (pretty much). Now statistics tell us that within the past X number of years, 40% of the Baby Boomers have died off. Many of them were what the old guard ministry used to call "second generation Christians" (largely thought to be the budding Laodiceans, although they too were set on the end coming within their lifetimes because their births were tied into the reemergence of Israel as a nation per the Olivet discourse.) Their kids grew up watching their parents' unwavering faith as many of the parents died off and the whole church disintegrated into little powerless little groups all claiming to be "the one".
DeleteSo, yeah. The anxieties caused by one false teacher abound, and those influenced by him can't help but manifest mental problems which were exacerbated by three generations of living with Armstrongism as their ios!
We've watched some of our politicians foment a similar "big lie" as if we actually needed further illustration as to how lies can ruin lives and send people into a mindset of false zealotry not dissimilar to that of the jihadists in another part of the world. It almost appears as if "the world" has come around to the insanities of which we were philosophically their forefathers. So many people are now blinded by the same type of cultic myopia and expectations which we experienced all those years ago, and we as a group have not successfully proven that there can be 100% recovery from the cultic mentality. Most people in both experiences are anticipating revival and validation. That attitude is part and parcel of the syndrome, it causes further insanity, and it's not going to die until the people affected by it do. It is as terminal in that way as stage 4 cancer. Caution: Bumpy roads ahead!
The funny thing is, if he did just observe what his conscience dictated that he observe privately and quietly, nobody would be able to say anything. Unfortunately, it's all come down to the point where he is assuming the mantle, or leadership. Ergo (not the poisoning, that has a "t") somebody's got to speak up. We need to apply the same practices and principles to him as we do to Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Bob Thiel, etc.
ReplyDeleteRead Ezekiel 33.
DeleteThe principle applies to whoever has the knowledge of an evil being performed.
If you choose not to raise an alarm, you are complicit to the crime or evil.
How does staying quiet help others, and how does it show love towards others? That’s something I’ve thought upon quite often. It would be a matter of self, if I worried about what happens to me if I spoke up!
So I reserve acts of self-less-ness to God, and humbly bow my knees to my King! Imagine if everyone looked out for the other guy! Just imagine. But it does seem like a mad thing to do when alone and no one else is liking it.
The people cry ”disrupter! Leave us be!”
Mockers cry out “delusional!”
I’ve gotten the taste of the truth of God. It’s right here in the Holy Bible. Herbert W Armstrong preached it. And when people lived contrary to the Word of God, they were hurt, they hurt others.
People have chosen to say Herbert W Armstrong lied to the people, and that is a strange thing to me. I have suffered traumas. I have suffered hurt. Mental anguish even. But it was coming from those who opposed the Word of God! They tried manipulation, and gaslighting, to try to make me believe a lie. They want the blame for their actions to land on Herbert W Armstrong.
I’m in search of true reports. Not shadowy mysterious “we of the darkness” crap! Anonymous demonic stories, that just attach those have been hurt by wrongdoing. These cog groups are separated from the Worldwide Church of God, and from HWA.
It is those who go after the hurt and lame, who try to push how Herbert Armstrong is to blame. He isn’t even alive and he is getting blame for actions he didn’t commit!
But those who are being hurt by those who oppose the Word of God, and being directed by those who oppose God.
I love God. I love family, and I love those of the Worldwide Church of God. I love the Word of God and if it isn’t in this Word then I don’t believe it!!!!!
Someone has to give a damn and someone needs to raise alarms against the evil and works of darkness. The truth is worth every pain received. Pain is always gonna come in life. It just matters if you are standing with Jesus Christ!
The truth is like good whiskey. Once you get a taste of it, everything is cheap and just wrong.
Samuel Kitchen @ 6:51:50 AM PDT 'I love the Word of God and if it isn't in this Word then I don't believe it'.
ReplyDeleteSo we will gather from this you do not indorse or support British Israelism?
Samuel Kitchen wrote: "...Our work will end, with the rise of the final resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire, a combine of ten toes, or ten nations or groups of nations in Europe, calling themselves “the United States of Europe”!..."
ReplyDeleteDoes Samuel have a sink? Those words should be tossed out with the kitchen sink! Why?
Why focus on the Holy Roman Empire, which was the 6th head of the Beast? It's history!
What did the Word, through John, a real Apostle, say?
Revelation 17:7 "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns."
:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."
The "one is" is none other than the Roman Empire, that existed during the time that John wrote this particular chapter. HWA is history past. Like HWA, the Roman Empire is history past; it was time to move on.
And you want to tie in the Holy Roman Empire with some 10 toes, which won't mean a thing until some time after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit? And what about Gog?
What is the 7th head/king? And, what is that 8th one? This is all part of the Word.
And you say "Our work will end with" the rise of some 10 toes?" And you're actually alone, you say? Will you last that long…until Satan exits that pit?
What might Jesus Christ, if He were walking this earth today, advise you and your "work?"
Matthew 15:13 "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
Will Jesus' words, part of the Word, apply to you and your work?
Time will tell...
John