A Christmas Polemic
By Scout
The Armstrongist view on Christmas is really about self-righteousness. It is not about whether there is a pagan taint to some popular observation. Armstrongists, for instance, have never examined Thanksgiving. One could make a superficially plausible argument that Thanksgiving is contaminated by paganism. The Native Americans who met with the pilgrims were throughgoing pagans. By Armstrongist standards, so were the pilgrims. The pilgrims believed in the Trinity. In addition, Thanksgiving is rooted in sin. Armstrongists used to believe, and maybe still do, that Native Americans were Canaanites. And Israel was not supposed to make treaties with Canaanites but was supposed to exterminate them. So, the first Thanksgiving celebration was a sinful rebellion against God. So, we have two rebellious, pagan peoples inaugurating an observance in early America that Armstrongists everywhere now cheerfully celebrate.
Armstrongists do not have a methodology that is applied even-handedly to ferreting out contaminated observances or Thanksgiving, along with Christmas, would not stand. Hence, the decision against Christmas is not the result of a carefully considered measure that is then applied without bias. One gets the impression that while Armstrongists are serious about the paganism of holidays, they are also selective, for some reason, about which holidays they evaluate. This supports the idea that not observing Christmas is ulterior and just a convenient badge of self-righteousness for Armstrongists. And leveraging Christmas does have value for Armstrongists. Taking a contrarian stand on Christmas also produces a sense of bonding and separateness from the great unwashed masses. In addition, HWA used to rail about co-workers spending money on Christmas gifts instead of sending the money to the WCG. This was a simply a means of capitalizing on the generosity of the season. And, of course, there are the pre- and post-Christmas sales.
The fallacy in the Armstrongist reasoning concerning Christmas has a name – it’s a thing. It is called in the discipline of logic the Genetic Fallacy. This is what Wikipedia says about it:
“The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue) is a fallacy of irrelevance in which arguments or information are dismissed or validated based solely on their source of origin rather than their content. In other words, a claim is ignored or given credibility based on its source rather than the claim itself.”
While one can debate such issues as how much paganism is too much and what condemning pagan historical connections can be found, we lose sight of the fact that the rejection of Christmas is simply an idiosyncratic assertion of self-righteousness in the odd denomination.
And let me state further. Garrison Keillor once said that in Minnesota even the atheists are Lutheran – it’s the Lutheran God they don’t believe in. Armstrongists have been known to celebrate on December 25th. I recall that we in this region used to go to the WCG District Family Weekend on Christmas Day. It was on a distant college campus. We would eat in restaurants, stay in hotels, have sports tournaments, sometimes a talent show, listen to a special sermonette and sermon, socialize bigly – a kind of custom liturgy all on December 25th. In this celebration of self-righteousness, it was the pervasive influence of mainstream Christianity that we were acknowledging. It wasn’t that we WCG members weren’t attending the Christmas party. Rather, we were the bad kids at the Christmas party.
Scout
Putting a spotlight on the toxic trait of self righteousness can never be a bad thing, even on this blog. But I fear you've not put enough emphasis on explaining the long lasting and destructiveness such a trait of self-righteousness can have on others. Especially in religious settings of religious leaders towards mere brethren.
ReplyDeleteHere let Ai help:
Self righteousness is a toxic trait that involves many differing toxic aspects:
Judging others: Self righteous people scrutinise others. They concentrate on the external appearances while ignoring their inner character.
Self righteous people refuse to admit mistakes, flaws or shortcomings. Perhaps accusing others of "pretense" and "falseness"and "acting".
Self righteous people are very vocal about their opinion and need to tell others. Unfortunately right in another's face, behind their back and whilst not in the room. Using physical expressions of punching the air, kicking chair legs, using loud speech and shouting to dominate and lecture others.
Self righteous people are known for sanctimonious sententiousness and a holier than thou attitudes.
Thank the Lord this blog is here to make sure Self righteousness is dealt with because hypocrisy is also a trait.
You might be right that certain people are or have historically been self-righteous. However, to dismiss a claim they made on that basis is a fallacy of "Bulverism" or perhaps "poisoning the well".
ReplyDeleteI think there are people who have been attracted to certain doctrines, such as Sabbath-keeping and holy days, and avoiding Christmas etc, because they are genuinely attempting to worship God on God's terms. Christ himself warned against trying to worship God with human-devised traditions. Decorating a tree, doing secret Santa, having a family lunch, getting drunk at a work party, decorating eggs and eating chocolate rabbits, etc, seems to fall short of the rich meaning of the Biblically ordained holy days. 25th December does seem suspiciously rooted in… non-Christian traditions.
There are some of us who rest on the Sabbath and try to make it a day of communion with God, not because we're enamoured of Herbert Armstrong, but because we want to try to come to God on his terms.
Let me see if I have this straight. If I observe Thanksgiving Day I should also observe Christmas Day, otherwise I'm being self righteous?
ReplyDeleteMaybe I should also shoplift a few things from Walmart just to be safe.
I don't celebrate a birthday on a non-birth-day.
ReplyDeleteNo one knows the actual date of Jesus's birth, they simply use a date as they like to pay regard to the birth of our Lord. Much like the Queens birthday celebration which is on a chosen day and not the actual day
DeleteAnonymous 4:19 wrote, “You might be right that certain people are or have historically been self-righteous.”
ReplyDeleteI believe people can sincerely believe that physical Sabbath observance can be valuable. That rejecting Christmas is self-righteous is more of a theory based on empirical evidence from my years of being an Armstrongist. The line in the sand on the issue of physical Sabbath observance is whether or not you believe that keeping the Sabbath is a requirement for salvation. You must be careful with this. The Circumcision Party believed that keeping the Sabbath was required for salvation and Armstrongists believe that it is. And Paul said that people that do such are fallen from grace. I tend to think that anybody I ever knew who kept the Sabbath and Holy Days also believed they were a requirement for salvation. It was never much of a topic of discussion but it was what we were taught. Keeping the Sabbath in the wrong way can definitely be a detriment. You are way better off observing Christmas even though historically it has had some pagan associations, associations now irrelevant.
Scout
.Scout, I see an awful lot of self-righteousness in your post and comment. It might be good to look in the mirror on occasion. Basically, to me your post shows a great deal of misunderstanding the mindset of the early years of the RCG/WCG era.
Delete''I tend to think that anybody I ever knew who kept the Sabbath and Holy Days also believed they were a requirement for salvation..''
DeleteI reckon you are right on this one Scout , which is the danger of legalism. Also it gets extended to the argument such observations are the proof of being in the one true church , this was written countless times .
This is why I tend to avoid "Winter Family Weekends."
ReplyDeleteCOGWA admits it uses some tithe money for it, and promotes it almost like an alternative holy day season.
And this is where I see self righteousness here. You are too self righteous to do WFW because you think COGWA promotes is like a Holyday?!?! You are so wrong my friend I have never heard anyone spending 2T on it, nor acting like it is a Holyday.
DeleteWe have a weekend social in late Jan/early Feb for the folks to get together at a central location during the drought between the Feast and Passover. We avoid anything that would lead someone to think that it is an "alternative christmas".
DeleteAgain, I will say this, the WFW has nothing to do with xmas. Many...and I say many people's work have from xmas to New Years off, so they have to take no vacation days. If it was 5 days any other time during the year, people would not be able to attend. Look at the logic and reasoning behind this, and anyone with any part of a brain would realize that it is about getting away from xmas, not celebrating an "alternate " one.
DeleteJon Brisby investigated Thanksgiving, his conclusion: Pagan!
ReplyDeleteHebrews 5:9
ReplyDeleteAnd being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
No reasonable person can any longer deny that the "fulfilled prophecies" in Matt 24 were written after they happened.
ReplyDeleteXmas is a mixture of paganism and Christianity (i.e. more paganism).
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, I don't agree with the self-righteous angle with the topic of Christmas. I totally agree with the self righteousness in Armstrongism. In scripture the religious leaders could have been doing the right thing, but their attitude or spirit was totally off. Such as the pharisee and the tax collector in (Luke 18:10-14). "At least I'm not like those other people."
ReplyDeleteNow the self righteousness does kick in when you have cogs that declare extra holy day convocations, like the 2nd, 3rd, 4th.......... of the feast, or two services in one day. In my opinion , the ACOGs still haven't learned the lessons of Job. Perhaps a younger generation will learn, as Jon would say "time will tell."
Great write up Scout!
Anonymous 5:11 wrote, "Let me see if I have this straight. If I observe Thanksgiving Day I should also observe Christmas Day, otherwise I'm being self righteous?"
ReplyDeleteNo, you didn't get it right. It goes like thiis, "If you observe Thanksgiving but reject Christmas, then you need to examine yourself because you just might be a redneck, oops, I mean self-righteous.
And stealing something from Walmart won't be helpful. Lots of uppity people steal things. They feel they have a right to whatever they want. What you need to do is observe the spiritual meaning of Christmas in humility. That will work.
Scout
What is the spiritual meaning of Christmas? You here only attack those who 'are not like yourself'. You do not express the inner learning curve of how being into Christmas has made you a better person, a better Christian.
DeleteYou only put down others through mockery or hatred.That alone is self righteousness. Every single time you write Sabbath Christians as "Armstrongites" is a self righteous put down on others. Every. Single.Time.
To answer 10:58. the put down of 'Armstrongites' is largely brought about because such run around claiming they are one true church whilst all other believers are deceived by Satan, - It is not being self righteous to address false claims with an epithet like that.
Delete@ Friday, December 20, 2024 at 10:58:06 PM PST
DeleteWell said. I was about to post something similar until I read yours.
It further validates my assertion that when someone accuses you of something they are actually telling on themselves.
Since there is no objective standard of righteousness, all righteousness is self righteousness. That includes the person who wrote this article.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the spiritual meaning of Christmas? It is all about mixing paganism with the bible narrative.
ReplyDeleteTo answer your question, the spiritual meaning is that people like to remember the birth of the Lord, as they find honoring Him meaningful. As to the paganism allegation people do not become pagans for having such memorial. As to the date itself it has zero to do with paganism .
DeleteMost of the time, during this season, I wish my customers and colleagues Merry Christmas. But, every once in a while, I like to shake it up a little. So, I'll level and tell people that I grew up keeping the Holy Days God gave to Moses in Torah, so when by myself, I don't really get into Christmas. When they look at me quizzically, I explain that throughout my life, celebrating Christmas was something I did for Chicks. (Wives and girlfriends). So, they go off thinking I'm Jewish, which is fine with me. After all, most of us who ever attended Ambassador College will remember one of the drills. You always searched diligently to see if you were fortunate enough to have Jews in your family genealogy!
ReplyDeleteOne time while I was in a Christian bookstore, I saw an interesting piece of, for lack of a better term, portmanteau jewelry. It was a Star of David interlinked with a Cross. We should have proudly worn those when we were Armstrongites. 'Cept we couldn't. Hislop said crosses were pagan!
BB
The cross as pagan is still pushed by Jehovah Witnesses today.
Delete"You always searched diligently to see if you were fortunate enough to have Jews in your family genealogy!"
DeleteConsidering how the Jews acted in antiquity (and were punished severely by God for it) and how some of them still act that way to this day I'm not so sure Jewish ancestry is something to brag about. Bloodline is pretty much irrelevant now anyway.
ACOGs have trouble explaining how it's bad to keep Christmas, yet it's OK to keep harvest festivals that pagan cultures were keeping for centuries before the Hebrews started to do so.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that hard to explain 538. The Holy spirit uses "harvest" terminology to explain spiritual truths. Glad I was able to help!
DeleteWhy is Santa dressed in red and white? Ask Coke, a good Christian company. Christmas is part of the religion of capitalism.
ReplyDeleteThis one is a bit of a myth probably promoted by Ambascol Press long time ago. . In 1931 Coca-Cola first used Santa on their advertisements, with artist Haddon Sundblom making only one major change to the iconic portrayal of him by Thomas Nast.
DeleteThey switched his pipe to a glass bottle of Coke.
So, whilst Santa hasn’t always been red, it definitely wasn’t Coke that made him red.
Keep the sabbath just like Jesus did. What could be wrong with that?
ReplyDeleteNothing wrong at all. Just don’t be elevating yourself because lesser believers have a different view as to the requirement to attempt to keep a day
DeleteWe used to get intelligent articles by Carl Sagan. Now we get this.
ReplyDeleteI'll never forget my Herb minister plus an elder accusing me of being self righteous for resisting their attempt to lord it over my faith. The accusation is a club used by many against those with different beliefs.
ReplyDeleteArmstrongites are the folks who are claiming to be the only "TRUE" Christians. The rest of us are a bunch of rebellious pagans. That's their narrative. As for the spiritual meaning of Christmas, I've written a rather large number of posts on that very topic.
ReplyDeleteStatistics tell an interesting story. In the USA, approximately 60% of the population profess to be Christian of which half of those say they regularly attend Church. Most admit that Christianity is in decline. Yet 90% claim they "celebrate" Christmas, showing there are many non believers, even atheists, who celebrate the cultural observance. Now we can judge for ourselves what is the focus by watching commercials and walking through the mall, but what does the system itself say about this massive celebration?
ReplyDeleteAn article in Wiki-USA , "Christmas in the USA, How is it Celebrated" says, "Christmas is celebrated by 90% of the population with some (the economist ?) considering it the most important time of the year. Families gather together, sing carols, and open presents from Santa Clause." It goes on to talk about home decorations, lights, Christmas movies, parties, food, etc. The entire article says NOTHING about Jesus Christ or anything of a spiritual nature. Christ is clearly not the focus! It is totally non religious, catering only to those physical embellishments of a carnal culture. And why not, the economy depends on it.
Maybe Scout and a few others keep Christmas in the spirit of humility, but knowing how this world operates, I would say, most don't!
Most pollsI’ve seen place those identifying as Christian at closer to 70%. The percentage has come down from 91% in 1976.
DeleteArmstrongism has had a much greater drop.
I think the commercialization of the Feast of Tabernacles is indicative of this. Armstrongists fill up all these exotic locations buying the best booze and food. No Branson for us! Feast gifts every day to the kids is exciting. See kids, better than Christmas! It’s seemingly a celebration of the self. How much can I get? Can I get it and do it with the right people?
The disparity is great and many get depressed and in debt afterwards. But, rejoicing over the Birth of Jesus within our homes is commercialism? The COGs in their servives teach overspending at the FOT in the exotic locations THEY have chosen to place their Organizations name. Whereas mainstream churches generally teach giving and thankfulness and avoiding the commercialization when rejoicing with family and extended family..
"requirement for salvation" seems such an unnatural way to approach our Creator.
ReplyDeleteGod: You must not murder.
Humans: Is that a requirement for salvation?
People are of course not condoning murder. The believer will be lead by the Spirit and be instructed by Jesus's words regarding the two great commandments, and the fruits of the Spirit.
DeleteArmstrong taught one must 'do' the ten commandments to be saved. This was a theme throughout his preaching career. To make the point he capitalized the word 'do'.
Jesus's elevation of the law shows no one can meet its requirements , all are shown to be sinners. Paul made the same point.
Those insisting they are special/sign of one true church/ and so forth because they really do keep the law - continuously criticizing believers for not doing what they do for example celebrating 25 th as a memorial of Jesus's birth - indeed run into the danger of self righteousness.
Ive got a Christian friend who likes to go out and camp somewhere during the holiday. He says its his time to reflect on the meaning of Christ... I tease him, of course, and tell him he becomes a monk in late December.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 10:58 wrote, “What is the spiritual meaning of Christmas? You here only attack those who 'are not like yourself'. You do not express the inner learning curve of how being into Christmas has made you a better person, a better Christian. You only put down others through mockery or hatred.That alone is self righteousness. Every single time you write Sabbath Christians as "Armstrongites" is a self righteous put down on others. Every. Single.Time.”
ReplyDeleteThis is an odd response. It seems to come from someone who has an Armstrongist association but it is not clear. I will respond briefly.
“What is the spiritual meaning of Christmas?” You write this as if you think there isn’t a spiritual meaning. This should put you in the Armstrongists zone. The spiritual meaning of Christmas is that the prophesied Messiah came and brought us salvation. Is that so hard? Any Christian and lots of secular people know that. Only Armstrongists seem to never have a clue.
“You here only … mockery or hatred.” Just malarkey. Trite criticisms.
“Every single time you write Sabbath Christians as "Armstrongites" is a self righteous put down on others.” If I don’t use the term “Armstrongist”, with its precision, nobody will know what I am talking about. I find the term “Sabbath Christians” to be interesting. To me a Sabbath Christian is a Christian who observes the Sabbath as a part of Christian liturgy. That Christian would recognize that the Sabbath is not a requirement for salvation but is a worship form. This aligns with Pauline theology. Paul said if you “find” salvation anywhere in the Mosaic Law you have fallen from grace. I would never refer to Armstrongists as Christians although I believe there are a few people in Armstrongists denominations who will eventually segue into Christianity with the help of God. Many exiters have had this experience. Armstrongists are not Sabbath Christians. Paul, I believe, was not self-righteous on this topic. I have no issue with any Christian who wishes to observe the Sabbath as non-salvific liturgy.
Self-righteousness is a problem we all have. For some of us, it is a daily battle as we try to walk in The Way. To others it is normalized and exalted in Anti-Christmas celebrations. You know where you fit.
Scout
Then if you are surprised to find the description 'Sabbath Christians' being used then maybe you did not know the inner teachings of other Churches of God preachers over the decades as well as you think you did.
DeleteI have no idea what a Anti Christmas celebration is. Jesus has been much removed from Christmas as general bible knowledge has been replaced drastically by modern consumerism christmas culture.
Re 12.45 :''Jesus has been much removed from Christmas as general bible knowledge has been replaced drastically by modern consumerism christmas culture...''
DeleteThe post was referring to believers who see value in having regard to the spiritual significance regarding the birth of Jesus.
Not a commentary on society as a whole which you seem to be inferring.
I hazard a guess that anti-christmas celebrations is intended to mean people celebrate their opposition to Christmas in some form, proud of themselves for resisting the drift to alleged paganism (which it is not as a rudimentary beyond the Hislops and Armstrongs and Witnesses of this world would show).
Many Sabbath keeping Christians are more motivated by surviving in modern Babylon than prancing about being pompous and proud because Christmas culture isn't their thing for whatever reason.
DeleteYou broadbrush sweep all Sabbath keepers the same which ultimately under estimates Jesus Christ and God the Father in who and how they work with humans.
Anonymous 5:06 wrote, "Since there is no objective standard of righteousness, all righteousness is self righteousness. That includes the person who wrote this article."
ReplyDeleteI am always amazed that there are people who come to this blog, toss out a sound-bite or two and never make a cogent argument. All I can say is that, Yes there is a standard or righteousnes for Christians. No, not all righteousness is self-righteousness. And what includes the person that wrote this article? You did not specify. You offered us a dubious statemetn about universal self-righteouessness that would include yourself as well. There must be some substance in what you wrote. I just cannot find it.
Scout
Anonymous 4:31 wrote, "requirement for salvation" seems such an unnatural way to approach our Creator.
ReplyDeleteYou do not find the expression “requirement for salvation” anywhere in the Bible so it has an odd ring when you meet it theological discourse. In the NT you find instead references to The Way (Greek, hodos) as the walk in life that leads to salvation. Jesus is The Way. There is a Way that leads to life. Christians seek to walk in The Way. Sounds pretty natural when the analogy of walking is used.
Observing the Law of Moses as the pathway to salvation is not walking in The Way. Jesus is the only pathway to salvation. (Let me hasten to add that there is a behavioral standard in the NT referred to as the Law of Christ. Armstrongists have a weakness for proclaiming anything that does not implement the Law of Moses as antinomian.) I don’t think the ancient Hebrews who stood at the base of Sinai even understood anything about salvation as the afterlife. I think they believed that you had a life on this earth that was fairy short and in that life you either had a good, obedient relationship with God or a bad one. There was with this concept a system of earthly rewards and punishments. Only when we get up to around the much later time of Daniel is there some discussion in the Bible of an afterlife. That was near the time of Second Temple Judaism. Even in the time of Jesus, the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife. The history of Christian salvation seems to start with Second Temple Judaism.
It is important to discern what is a requirement for salvation and what is not. This is because sects have arisen that seek to include requirements for salvation that are not. This is a source of their power and leverage. If the sects can make you believe that they solely define the way to salvation, they can diminish you to a resource for themselves. So, even though the semantics of “requirement for salvation” sounds academic, it does have value as a guardrail against those who wish to invoke odd salvific ideas in order to control others.
Scout
Part of the human condition involves needs and the axioms of supply and demand. Events and experiences of any magnitude set these in motion. Suppose that everyone on the face of planet Earth observed Passover in the ways that the old, classic WCG taught. Massive purchases of bowls, soap, washcloths and towels would be need to be made. Also, Matzohs and possibly Manischewitz Wine. There would be advertisements for these items, comparison shopping, and charges to credit cards.
ReplyDeleteThink of all the goods purchased in order to observe the Feast of Tabernacles, a time when people have ten percent of their annual income to spend within approximately two weeks of observance and travel. Imagine this no longer being a thing restricted to a religious minority. I always found our observances to be instructive in what it means to be a minority as well, but just imagine if everyone were observant. There would be needs created, mass business opportunities would result, and some would take their behavior to ridiculous extremes inviting the same sorts of criticisms regarding crass commercialism. However, you attack the bad behavior. You don't use commercialism as a rationale for abolishing a holiday. Jesus attacked the commercialism of his human days by overturning the merchant's tables. He also went to Temple on Hanukkah, a national secular holiday from the intertestamental period.
A bud of mine used to joke around, kind of mocking something his old grandma taught him. She used to tell him and his friends, "Boys, have fun, but don't sin!" Sound somewhat quaint to our jaded ears today, but there's probably some good wisdom for this season to be found in that.
The proprietor of a chopper shop on the main drag of Baldwin Park, CA, where I used to buy a lot of my motorcycle parts, would always decorate his front windows with "Jesus is the Reason for the Season!" this time of the year. This attracted more than just the attention of those doing their Christmas chopping. The city council asked him to ratchet down the religious overtones. But, he was Catholic, and didn't listen to them. He was a rebel with more than just the bikes.
BB
I recall hearing in the past that the original Santa Claus was clad in all green clothing. This was prior to the red Coke Santa Claus. I suppose we could connect this with the Green Man motif that exists in many pagan societies, and therefore we should not observe Christmas. This is an example of the Genetic Fallacy (q.v., Wikipedia). But I really do not believe that modern day Christmas celebrants are paying homage to the Green Man or even know anything about him. You probably never heard anything about him before I mentioned him just now.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many COG women realize when they participate in Christmas pre-sales and post-sales that they are participating in the season? They may not be directly practicing “paganism” but they are sullied drafting off of it. And I wonder how many COGs would have the courage to ban Christmas sales. And who would be the judge to determine what is a Christmas sale and what is not? This is a real issue for people who seriously want to avoid what they perceive as paganism, yet something that Armstrongist praxis has never addressed. Someone might counter that if you don’t know something is sacrificed to an idol you can consume it. But I think in this case you can know pretty well.
Scout
Ah, Scout. They'd probably rename them "Winter Family Sales" and encourage the women to send their savings in to the church as a special winter offering. 🤑🤑🤑
DeleteThese people are just awful sometimes! They criticize Constantine, but then turn right around and purify what they believe to be paganism in their own church approved ways! It kind of reminds me of all the old jokes about the Catholic priest and the Jewish Rabbi who were friends, and during one of their visits, the priest asks the Rabbi if he'd sub for him hearing confessions while he takes a bathroom break!
BB
Black Friday and any pre or post Christmas sales are well known to be no worthwhile deal at all. Such is the culture of today's society of hype.
DeleteLooking back, i think Worldwide and its descendant churches would probably have been better off to work with some other Christian churches & charities that they could have found common ground with rather than deeming them all pagan and false. But I guess the church government hierarchy could not come to any type of agreement to do such a thing
ReplyDeleteEspecially when the ACOG got splintered into the different cogs. They should have reached out to others instead of always pointing the finger at them.
DeleteOne of the things that makes armstrongism look strange, especially when they had way more financial power in Worldwide is not having local church buildings. I mean we know that the church isn't a building, but it's "different" when the few who do join their churches leave their local protestant and catholic churches and have to drive over an hour to meet in hotels, libraries or mason halls. It's a humbling experience.
Keeping Christmas is self-righteousness, since it is not ordained in the bible.
ReplyDeleteThere is no objective standard of righteousness for Christians. The bible itself is not objective. Further, it has numerous interpretations. The numerous churches cannot agree with each other. There is no objective way to determlne the canon of the bible. It is all baloney.
ReplyDeleteSome people can put more truth in a "sound-byte" than 100 fake scholars can put in a thousand twisted articles.
ReplyDeleteThe date on which xmas is kept has everything to do with astronomy and sun-worship and paganism.
ReplyDeleteThere’s not actual evidence that there was even a festival of “the birth” of “Sol Invictus” on December 25th. Further, even if were an ancient pagan day a believer today having regard to it for another reason - the birth of our Lord - is not converted into a pagan nor is doing so harming their conscience.
DeleteThe printing press broke the stranglehold that the catholic church had on information. The result was the protestant reformation. The internet is breaking down information control even more. All organized religion is now on the defensive. The churches seem powerless to stop this trend. But governments and media outlets are not, which is why we see more and more derogatory comments about "conspiracy theories" and "disinformation" and more and more anti-free speech legislation throughout the West and elsewhere. And more censorship on the major platforms.
ReplyDeleteWe're living in times when people are rejecting the traditional streams of information, and are wilfully igging out instead. Apparently, people resent the educated and those with superior IQs. This has been the prequel to totalitarianism and other types of authoritarian control throughout the past. Alway wondered how the endtimes would unfold, and here we are actually watching it!
DeleteThe end-times are not unfolding. The prequel to totalitarianism is religion and other bullshit.
ReplyDeleteWho the hell do you think got Trump elected, 6:44? What do you think is the basis of the MAGA movement? It's the religious right!
DeleteThank you for making my point! The end times are unfolding!
As the author of this little essay on Christmas, I am going to take the liberty to critique some of the responses. First, let me define the themes of the few paragraphs I wrote. I am still waiting for logical, well-constructed oppositional responses to these themes:
ReplyDelete1. The Armstrongist view of Christmas does not have consistency or integrity. They condemn Christmas but give Thanksgiving a waiver. And in some oblique ways, Armstrongists actually benefit from Christmas or celebrate it. What, then, is their defense of this poorly reasoned approach?
2. My empirical experience is that Armstrongists tend to be self-righteous about rejecting Christmas. It became a badge of faux righteousness. It was a distinctive that said “we’re different” and “we’re better” and we have and inside track with God and for this reason, “we’re going to the Place of Safety and you’re not.” Armstrongists accuse Christians of celebrating a pagan holiday and yet they celebrate an anti-Christmas of personal self-righteousness.
The oppositional responses to the two themes above lack relevance to the debate. They were of principally two categories:
1. Christmas is pagan (presented without any logical support).
2. We’re not self-righteous. You’re self-righteous. (A juvenile tit for tat)
Nowhere did the opposition directly and logically address the two themes I asserted in the essay. There were instead the usual sound-bite counterpoints that they picked up from their pulpit. In fact, one person defended the trusty sound-bite and stated, “Some people can put more truth in a "sound-byte" than 100 fake scholars can put in a thousand twisted articles.” This is a back-handed swipe at me but also one of the most intellectually retrograde statements I have ever heard. And what I wrote was agilely skirted.
Byker Bob made a cogent statement about consumerism. I would like to take that a little further. The USA is a leading part of the global Gentile system referred to in the Bible as Babylon the Great. Its religion is materialism and its source of power is ideological, military and economic. It is the great opponent of the theological meaning of Christmas. Those who oppose the spiritual meaning of Christmas will find themselves in league with this great hegemony. Babylon wants to turn Christmas into a festival of inordinate materialism. And Christians are fighting a battle to hold this at bay.
Miller Jones has a couple of articles about Christmas on his webpage. Good reading.
Scout
In your opinion you decide what is worthy and worthless.
DeleteHaving a superiority attitude is more dangerous in the long run than being Mr Christmas.
Anonymous 2:32
DeleteYou might try to address the actual issues as I have laid them out. As an Armstrongist surely have something substantive to say about this - after all, you are the experts in not observing Christmas.
Scout
You desire an specific argument none are giving you. And I'm not a Armstrongist I'm a Sabbatarian Christian. You assume much about others without a single shred of evidence.
Delete1. If God wanted us to celebrate His Son's birthday He would have in His Word given the date of His Son's birth according to the Hebrew/Jewish Calendar.
ReplyDeleteBe thankful - Col 3:15 even on designated thank days.
2. I'll judge not your righteousness to avoid being judged of my self-righteousness - Mat 7:1.
Christmas, a public reading of the book of Luke’s account of the birth of Jesus, songs and hymns of praise for God fulfilling His promises and revealing Himself to us, and a time of gathering together to worship Him.
ReplyDeleteByker Bob 844 says,
ReplyDelete"You don't use commercialism as a rationale for abolishing a holiday"!
Ok, but you can use it to expose the hypocrisy of a corrupt system hell bent on defining it.
Is this not the case? Proof is the example of the chopper shop proprietor who, because of his sign, was told by the city council to ratchet down the religious gestures. So, if Jesus is not the reason of the season, what is???
Scout is correct in his observation. The religion of this Babylonian system is materialism and the battle to hold it at bay is ongoing. As individuals we can overcome. As a collective I'm afraid the battle has already been lost! Wide is the gate.
Anonymous 12:57 wrote, “If God wanted us to celebrate His Son's birthday He would have in His Word given the date of His Son's birth according to the Hebrew/Jewish Calendar.”
ReplyDeleteYou have improvised an interesting rule. In counterpoint, after the Jews waited for centuries for the coming of the Messiah, Jesus came brining the way to salvation with him. This is an extraordinary and momentous event in history – something that is blessed for everyone. Do you think God would simply have us ignore this advent? Is it appropriate to ignore the appearance of The King? Psalm 149 states:
Praise the Lord!
Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the faithful.
Let Israel be glad in its Maker
let the children of Zion rejoice in their King. (NRSV)
I could imagine some grumbling Armstrongists condemning the psalmist for advocating this very proper rejoicing because they could not find a calendar date in the Book of Deuteronomy for it. You need to consider if the rule you have asserted (no Hebrew calendar date, therefore, no celebration) actually results in your doing a gauche and improper thing.
Scout
Note: I suppose you have found a date for Thanksgiving in the Book of Deuteronomy. If God wants you to celebrate Thanksgiving, he has no doubt given you a date.
God gives dates for the festivals and annual sabbaths He wants observed.
DeleteThe funny thing is, BP8 that most COG members who saw ol' Vic's front windows while driving by would probably have said to their kids, "See that??? No, He isn't! Nimrod is the real reason for the season!"
ReplyDeleteFrom a personal standpoint, I've always held very Bohemian attitudes towards money, especially when it comes to high profile, conspicuous consumerism, you know, the "flash cats". Financial security is a good thing, but it's part of the human condition that when we don't need to worry about money, other things to worry about crop up. New things don't make you happy, either. It's absolutely amazing how quickly they become part of our norms, lose their luster, and we find that once again we've taken ourselves along for the ride, and are still the same person. Communism doesn't work either. It kills motivation. Personally, I enjoy collecting experiences instead of things. Experiences can change us in ways that money or other valuables cannot.
Stuff exists all around us, but we don't need to participate in it all, or to judge others with different perspectives and perceived needs. I've long believed that the quality and integrity of our lives is determined by our appetites, and the activities or philosophies in which we choose to participate, or to avoid.
BB
Although this is off-topic, there are some things that people have done with Christmas that peeve me. First, I do not like the fact that Jesus is depicted as an infant Northwest European. Jesus was a Jew. He looked like a Jew. He did not look like a Norwegian kid. In these same pictures, Joseph and Mary are depicted as Northwest Europeans. Jesus had some pigmentation. And I don’t like the argument that Jesus and his family just looked like Ashkenazi. The Ashkenazi did not exist at the time of the Advent. They are a latter-day mix of Jewish ancestry and Southern European ancestry. Jesus was not that.
ReplyDeleteI don’t like the loud crowd of atheists that make a festival of pointing out the discrepancies in the two accounts of the Nativity. This crowd usually emerges at this time of year. There are just two accounts. Mark and John did not even mention the Nativity. And the two accounts in Luke and Matthew do not agree with each other. They may complement each other but there is no denying that the two accounts cover some different territory. But what difference does it make. When some people read these accounts, they do not connect with the spiritual content but with the physical details. Maybe the problem is how they connect. Luke could have cross-checked his account against the physical details of Matthew but he didn’t. That wasn’t what he was writing about.
Another thing I don’t like about Christmas fans is how they react when they find out you don’t observe Christmas. Some people react like they just saw a gnat swallow a bail of hay. The modern Christmas celebration is not in the Bible. Christianity doesn’t have holy days in the ancient Hebrew sense. Christmas, however, is broadly observed in the Christianity. The precise way it is observed tends to be denominational. There are a variety of reasons why Christians might not observe Christmas. Some people need to lighten up.
Scout
Anonymous 3:57 wrote, “God gives dates for the festivals and annual sabbaths He wants observed.”
ReplyDeleteYes, he did. He gave those dates to Israel not to you. He also placed his name at Jerusalem. So that is the only valid place you can keep three of the holy days. My guess is that you have never been to Jerusalem. A Millerite preacher named Herbert W. Armstrong told you that you didn’t have to go to Jerusalem and you believed him instead of the Bible. If you claim to live by the Old estament, then you must live by the words of the Old Testament.
God has given you no dates for Thanksgiving so he must not want it observed, by your reasoning. Yet, it is my guess, you kept Thanksgiving this year. Even though it has as much association, by Armstrongist standards, with paganism as Christmas does.
It’s time to get a clue.
Scout
Let us keep the feast, Paul writes, to the brethren at Corinth, Greece, about 1200 miles from Jerusalem.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile: Twas the day before Xmas when all through the land....."paganism" was stirring not hitting the fan.......but was emanating for all to see......a baby stays a baby for as long as can be.......
Anonymous 3:25 wrote, "You desire an specific argument none are giving you. And I'm not a Armstrongist I'm a Sabbatarian Christian. You assume much about others without a single shred of evidence."
ReplyDeleteIf you scan over the comments, you will see that I work with a paucity of evidence from the Armstrongist side. They are not used to debate. They are used to simply doing what their ministers tell them to do. The idea of looking for the rationalitly behind a theological position is not popular in their context.
If we were to engage in a probative discussion, the first thing I would ask you is what you think a Sabbatarian Christian is. If you tell me that you believe that the Sabbath is a requirement for salvation, I will know that you are not a Christian. That is what the Circumcision Party believed and Paul castigated them. If you observe the Sabbath for liturgical reasons and do not believe keeping the Sabbath is required for salvation, then you are a Sabbatarian Christian, at least on this single issue. You would be like the saints in Jerusalem who followed James and were New Testament Christians yet continued with Judaic praxis. The difference between these two viewpoints is the width of an ocean.
You have given me so little evidence, I can only conjecture at what you are.
Scout
Scout 321
ReplyDeleteYour rules of engagement demonstrate why nothing has ever been resolved through debate on this site. The topics discussed are too broad to bring to conclusion, open to interpretation, and clouded with circular reasoning. Hence, multiple differing opinions, 41,000 Christian denominations.
Consider sabbath observance. Most would acknowledge that it is NOT required for salvation. But that still leaves us with 3 massive topics to consider their relevance, the sabbath, salvation, what is required for salvation. Very time consuming.
I don't believe even HWA ever used the terminology, "the sabbath is required for salvation". If he did I would like to see it. What he DID believe was that the sabbath was part of the law of God, sin is the transgression of the law, and Christians should not sin. These are massive Biblical topics that generate a lot of questions.
Without a VERBAL Supreme Court from heaven, whose authority we all recognize, nothing will ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction regardless of the evidence based on what we have now. Until that arrives we are stuck with defending our own subjective theological position, which is entertaining and enjoyable but not practical for arriving at absolute truth.
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy your presentations and content, even if I sometimes disagree. I admit, I don't know it all, but who does?
Is not a stop sign/red light (the law) required for your physical salvation?
ReplyDeleteBP8 5:59
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, “I don't believe even HWA ever used the terminology, "the sabbath is required for salvation".”
I don’t believe I ever heard in the WCG over a period of 30 years anyone say explicitly that “the Sabbath is a requirement for salvation.” But the concept was so large and dominating that there was really no need. The canonical concept was contained in Hoeh’s article about what Laws of Moses we are to keep today. The answer is: everything but the sacrifices. (Meredith later excluded the exaction of death penalties but I don’t think they ever abandoned the implicit and muddled belief that Native Americans should be exterminated.) And further, the laws are to become a part of your being – written on your heart – because they are God’s eternal moral laws. No doubt there are other Armstrongist requirements that were left unstated but were nevertheless unquestionably necessary for the lay membership.
You also wrote, “Without a VERBAL Supreme Court from heaven, whose authority we all recognize, nothing will ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction regardless of the evidence based on what we have now. “
I believe your statement is extreme. We may tussle over topics such as faith and works but I believe many issues are clear. Your statement seems to be asserting scripture is so vague that Armstrongism is just as good as anything else. Paul and Luke made a clear distinction between the Circumcision Party and Christianity. I disagree with the Christian mainstream on some issues but I agree in the essentials. There are some principles that are essential and others that a peripheral. I agree with you that we will not find perfect knowledge until the next life but we do have workable knowledge now.
Scout
5:59, I know you were addressing Scout, but I, too, found your comments to be thought provoking. I believe that what you described is by design. The minds God gave us are remarkable in terms of problem solving, and different available approaches alone. Who amongst us, when faced with a problem, doesn't immediately come up with multiple scenarios under which the problem can be resolved? Solutions will vary dependent upon the level of intelligence and socio-economic background of the individual, particular type of training his or her family's group or tribe has provided, education or lack thereof, military or college experience, gender, racial makeup, orientation, neighborhood environment, etc, just to identify a few of the obvious factors.
ReplyDeleteWe're also all collecting experiences throughout our lifetimes, vastly different ones at that. Health varies widely across the general population. The fact that we could be unified under a single school of thought, even by a church government, is a fool's errand. The better solution would be to have, or acknowledge, a system which is expansive enough, and flexible enough to cover all of the variables which are unique to each of us.. We are all parts of a whole. Most of us do not actively try to make ourselves distinct as individuals. That is a hand of cards which is predominantly dealt to us! Authoritarian governance suppresses. It is not transformative. I do not see eternity as being a time during which we lose our individuality, our experiences, our various talents. What I do see is all of us having learned to channel those in ways which produces good.
Armstrongism has always pitted the first of the TGCOLs against the second. That is their primary mistake. These are in reality one and the same, and compliment one another by unifying "God" and "man" through equal treatment. The way in which law was used in the practical applications in our lives under Armstrongism frequently generated (for lack of a better term) bad Karma. The intention of the law is love, a love which naturally produces good fruits,, fruits possibly being the closest synonym for karma. That is what will ultimately produce unity!
As a conclusion to my previous comments on whether Jesus is STILL the reason for the season OR has He been replaced by a nonreligious cultural commercial counterfeit, I offer this interesting jewel I found online.
ReplyDelete19th Century Christmas music
O Come all ye faithful
O holy night
We 3 Kings
The First Noel
Hark the Herald angels sing
O little town of Bethlehem
Silent night
20th Century Christmas music
White Christmas
Rudolph the red nose reindeer
Let it snow
Santa Clause is coming to town
Winter wonderland
Frosty the snowman
Jingle bells rock
THIS TRANSITION JUST HAPPENED BY CHANCE, OF COURSE (the article's words, not mine).
This transition in music happened since All Modern Christmas music and the American Classics are written by assimilating jews. They wrote about "White Christmasses" and of course not Jesus.
ReplyDeleteHWA was through BI the first and foremost promoter of this Jewish influx as BI was the first time rsmpant American Christian anti semitism was addressed.
Nck
This entire debate is moot because you people do not understand Calvinism.
ReplyDeleteHWA, never thought that anything was required to obtain salvation.
All was predestined before the world was founded yet by willingly IGNORING what was one KNEW AFTER BAPTISM one could LOSE salvation.
But one could do NOTHING to obtain it.
Nck