The author of Revelation was doing in his turbulent times what we do in ours. Trying to match up this or that political and/or religious leader with the times and creating a prophecy to tell the story of what is happening and what ultimately "will happen". With the outcome, of course, going to the good guys and in this case, the Jews and Jewish Christians during the sweep of Vespasian through the Levant and ultimately on to destroy Jerusalem in 70 CE. Did't quite work out that way.
Every age tries to figure out where it stands with its craziness and "end times" it seems. Seems we don't want to die and would prefer to "be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye"!
I don't personally believe that anyone can "pre-dict" the future. But trying has become big biz. Some have the need to see themselves as prophets. They don't tend to do it well. Their prophecies tend to fail due to unforeseen circumstances. I believe we all or most all here can recall the days when Franz Joseph Strauss, as potential "Beast" visited AC and made it on to the cover of the PT. Alas...
Arch of Titus in Rome celebrating his victory over Jerusalem in 70 CE
Revelation is "a Failed prophecy" in the sense that the Romans won the day with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Messiah, neither Jewish nor Jewish Christian returned at the end of three and a half years. Within that time from 70 to 73 when Masada fell, the Romans put an end to any hope of Messianic deliverance.
Nero has often been thought to be "the Beast" and this may be possibly true in the minds of many in the day. "NERO" in Hebrew does spell out as 666. Some translations give 616 as the number of the Beast which translates into the more generic "Anti-Christ" evidently. Either way, it points towards the Caesars of 68 through 72 CE in the two years either side of the destruction of Jerusalem. Nero died in June of '68.
Rev 17:9
“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
In this prophetic scenario, the first 5 meaning, Julius Caesar (d. 44 BC), Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero is the 6th and the one that "now is". Galba, who followed after Nero's suicide in '68, lasted just one year into '69 and is the 7th. The "Beast" who once was and now, or not yet, is the 8th and part of the succession of the 7. This can be seen as Vespasian who became Emperor in '71 declared so by his troops as his Son Titus destroyed Jerusalem during his return trip to Rome at Galba's assassination. Testy times those!
To give the times a fuller context, the complete 7 and beyond after the destruction of Jerusalem are
FIVE ARE FALLEN
1.Julius Caesar (d. 44 BC)
2.Augustus
3.Tiberius
4.Caligula
5. Claudius
ONE IS
6. Nero
YET TO COME FOR A SHORT SPACE
7. Galba
(Otho, Vitellius,)
(Vespasian was proclaimed Emperor in December of '69. Otho and Vitellius contested Vespasian's claim to the throne but didn't last but a few months each. The author of Revelation did not consider them players. Vespasian is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" Vespasian is to be the last ruler of Rome, the man of sin, the antichrist who will be destroyed by the Jewish Christ, but it didn't work out that way. )
The 8th that was and is not, yet is...
8. Vespasian
9.Titus
10.Domitian (d. 96 AD).
The Foreign Kings who supported Rome in the Armies against Jerusalem
12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.
And the Romans won. In this way the Prophecy of the Book of Revelation failed to deliver.
14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
It's all fascinating of course. While agnostic at best in my views, I have always been and always will be fascinated with how we try to explain our world and the drama and trauma of political and religious intrigues and the Biblical view of how it all will work out even as it doesn't as we all might have hoped.
Vespasian builds the Colosseum in Rome in '72 and finishes it during the rule of his son, Titus.
(That passing of torches in both politics and religion from Father to Son has always been a perk of the position)
(Note: Not a few who understand the context of Revelation, written just before the Fall of Jerusalem to encourage Jewish Christians to hang in there until Rome is defeated in 3 1/2 years and the Messiah comes. It failed. Rome won the war, from 69 to 73 CE with the final destruction of Masada.
In the church letters of Revelation, a basically Jewish book, especially the letter to the Ephesians, Paul "those who claim they are apostles and are not" which the Ephesians rejected, was the false prophet they hated. Vespasian was the Beast.
Revelation throws both of them into the Lake of Fire.)
Years ago I was studying the sieges of Jerusalem and the verses that pertain to the three and a half year period in conjunction to the 70AD tribulation. Or the times, times and half of times found in (Rev 12:6 & Rev 12:14).
ReplyDeleteDaniel’s version has it like this:
Daniel 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
So I went back and went to 67 AD to try and get the three and half years. The Main Campaign (67-70 AD): Vespasian focused on conquering Galilee and other regions. By August 29th (Av), 70 AD Jerusalem fell by his son Titus. I think there are three and a half years in there depending on where you start in 67AD, but some have the revolts or the war starting in 66. I’ll have to keep studying.
In history, they are called, Jewish–Roman War, the First Jewish Revolt, the War of Destruction, or the Jewish War.
Matthew 24:16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” This is before the abomination of desolation. Some historical accounts have Titus slaughtering a pig on the eastern gate in 70AD.
Tank
Curious about anyone’s take on a theory of mine that “Lord’s Day” in Rev 1:10 indeed refers to the Western use of the term for Sunday, but not as an endorsement of any idea of abrogation, evolution, or replacement of the seventh-day Sabbath. My theory is that that the term use stemmed from the significant events of the Sunday proximate to Christ’s resurrection — including the possibility of the Resurrection occurring AFTER sundown on Saturday. In an effort to head off division, he took advantage of the happenstance of the vision coming on the first day of the week to offer this as a sop. Again, it would not abrogate Sabbath.
ReplyDeleteJohn may also have been doing the Romans 14 thing and respecting Jew/Israelite-only Sabbath convictions. Again, no intent at Sabbath abrogation.
The above two theories are not mutually exclusive.
Adventists, including Armstrongists, could argue, on the other hand, that such a usage is actually a veiled hint at identifying the “Mark of the Beast.”
Since the Book of Revelation is all about "the Day of the Lord" and the Second Coming of the Cosmic Christ, the phrase "I was in spirit on the Lord's Day" seems to simply be the same way of saying "I was in spirit on the Day of the Lord, which the entire vision is about". I would doubt, believing that Revelation was written in the late summer of /69 CE as a prophecy for those stuck in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans had any reason to be using "the Day of the Lord" as any kind of reference for any reason to "Sunday". That would be a bit before its time in the evolution of theology, practice and belief of Christianity yet to come.
DeleteOf course the "book of Revelation failed to deliver." It has to since Dennis C Diehl ignores most of the book like a 200 million men army sweeping through Europe and all creatures in the oceans dying.
ReplyDeleteI've concluded that some posters like Dennis believe one thing but post something very different.
Perhaps you need consider the concept of "hyperbole" in ancient texts? And too, I believe what I post. In this case, possible origins of the NT and the story of Jesus far different but more real than when we first believed.
DeleteYou'd probably do well to understand the use of "hyperbole" in the Bible over all. From taxing "the whole world" to the sins of Revelation being piled up to the heavens, (Rev 18:5, hyperbole serves its purpose.
ReplyDeletehttps://deeperstudy.com/hyperbole-and-overstatement-as-tools-for-deeper/
I also post what I believe. They match and, in this case, I believe our understanding of NT and Gospel origins are not quite as simplistic and true as when we first believed.
Thus...Anonymous, you conclude amiss :)
DeleteI am with "Cosmic Dennis".
ReplyDeleteYet EVERYTHING HWA said is coming to pass also.
This week I saw China and Russia at a parade where China is the main sponsor fighting Europe (Europe who are paying everything in the Ukraine War).
Also "Strauss's special purpose on earth has not worked out. Yet currently Germany is building the 2nd largest Army on earth.....(for the stated purpose that the USA cannot longer be relied upon)
And I could go on and on as you know...
Nck