Time at the Schwarzschild Radius (A cinematic depiction of a black hole - Fair Use)
“At the still point of the turning world…At the still point, there the dance is, where past and future are gathered…Except for the point, the still point, There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.” - T.S. Eliott from his poem “Burnt Norton”
The Dance
By Scout
God is not a neat package. At least to human reason. If he were, the lives of theologians would not be blighted with so much controversy. I hold to the Nicene view of God, as interpreted in classical theology, but I must admit that the Nicene view has both strong points and weak points. By “weak” I mean concepts that seem a little theoretical and exploratory rather than unassailable. I have also been a sharp critic of the Armstrongist view of God which strikes me as an alarming excursus into all-out anthropomorphism.
How much can we, as created beings, know about the uncreated God in his essence? Not much, really. God meets us in metaphor. Usually, he presents himself in scripture using anthropomorphic terms. We, on the other hand, use what we know from the created realm to try to describe him. Our efforts can result in nothing more than unintended poetry.
There is the school of thought that we should read what God has provided as a description of himself in the Bible and ask no further questions. Then there is the view of analytic theology that advances the idea that if the Bible leaves a topic unstated then we should put on our finest philosophical dressage and develop the topic ourselves. While I am a proponent of the latter view, I know it to be fraught with uncertainty. Analytic theology is midrash in discussion of the gray zones rather than the inspiration of incontrovertible truth. And at this point we must join with faith. What I am trying to ease into saying is that there are now neo-classical theologians on the land who are starting to sound like they have had a passing tryst with the Armstrongist Doctrine of God. I will cite an example.
God as Temporal, For Instance
There are now some theologians, followers of neo-classical theology, with reputable backgrounds that believe that God exists in time. They don’t go the complex route to establish this. They simply say that if God did this, and then this and then that, he had to be following a chronological sequence. He is temporal just as we are, they assert. If God creates then he begins to do the activity of creation. And this occasions both intrinsic and extrinsic changes to God. That is because to create something is to act and then after the creation God is different. He is now someone who owns and interacts with a Cosmos, for instance. This means God is not immutable as in classical theology.
Neo-classicists also point out that there is a time constraint on cause and effect. Cause must come before effect. The word “before” is one of those troublesome prepositions that comes out of the created realm. It has a spatial meaning. What it actually means in this context is that on the continuum of time, first the cause happens and then the effect happens. God causes things to happen; therefore, he must be “in” time. Then there is logic. “If it is a horse, then it is an animal.” The proposition does not make sense unless it is ordered in time sequence. Ordered thought for us humans happens in a succession of moments. The neo-classicists have a talking point. And if they have a talking point, so do the Armstrongists.
God as Atemporal
I believe that God is timeless. Note that this is an apophatic statement. It tells us what God is not. God is not in time. My statement does not do much to define positively what God actually is. What drives me towards atemporality is that time is a part of the created Cosmos. It responds, for instance, to gravity. As gravity increases, time slows. At the Schwarzschild horizon of a black hole, time almost stops. If spaghettification of your body did not happen, you could live there almost forever although it would seem like to you to be a normal lifespan. Your feet are younger than you head because they are closer to the earth’s gravity-generating mass. God would not be dependent on something that he created. (God, of course, is not dependent on anything.) If he created time, then time had a beginning but God has no beginning so God existed prior to time. I am not sure how neo-classicists or Armstrongists handle this issue. I heard a neo-classicist talk about it but I cannot say that I understood what he said. Something like the statement that time does not run slower under intense gravity, just the mechanical clock runs slower. Physicists don’t seem to believe that.
Logic may seem to require chronological flow of propositions but it can be static. It does not have to be represented as an argument flowing in time. It can be represented by Venn diagrams. As for cause and effect happening in chronological sequence, that is a conundrum. I keep coming up with the idea that God knows all causes and all effects already and the act of creation means that he exposes something already known to him forever to our purview. He doesn’t really innovate at all in the act of creation. For the software engineers among you, God instantiates classes, methods, data types and parameters that are already known to him. But then the neo-classicists can argue that instantiation itself is done in the succession of moments – in time. I would have to look beyond these arguments for a resolution. Later in this essay I will look to Jesus.
There is also a mathematic problem. If the eternal God experiences reality as a series of moments, that means his past is infinite. If we represent the present moment as p then the next moment is p+1 and the previous moment was p-1. The subtraction of moments moves us backwards in time mathematically. For an eternal being who lives in a succession of moments, time goes backwards forever. We would never, ever quit subtracting moments. No matter how much subtraction we do the p-1 term would always exist. If God is locked in an infinite past, how does he ever reach the present or the future (The Infinite Delay Argument.) In brief, an infinite series of moments in time as required by temporality is not a meaningful description of God’s eternity. The arithmetic of infinity does not serve us well here.
Someone told me once that Herman Hoeh believed that time is motion – an Aristotelian idea. I have never seen this view in writing in WCG literature. I don’t think time is motion directly. I believe in the “A Theory” of time (there is also a B Theory). Solely because it most closely matches my experience and intuition. You will have to look the A Theory up. There isn’t enough time for it in this little essay. In brief, I believe God creates the present. The present is all that we know. The past is gone and the future has not come into existence yet. Theory A says that reality is only the present. Like T.S. Elliott wrote. So, my view is that God creates reality in sequence, moment by moment. Time is not motion but motion is the real product of God’s action of moment-by-moment creation. Time is smoothly continuous because God’s creation of reality is smoothly continuous. If God decided not to create the next moment, reality would simply disappear. We would not die. We would just vanish.
Armstrongism and Neo-classical Theology
Armstrongism lacks a well-developed theology. Armstrongists have done a little to organize the ideas that HWA left them. Armstrongism could use the help of the neo-classicists. The neo-classicists believe that God is temporal. They also believe that God is not a simple being, that is, lacking subordinate parts. This resonates with Armstrongism. I recall an Armstrongist minister stating that God had a heart. But one pulpit statement from someone trained at Ambassador College doesn’t make an integrated doctrine. A neo-classicist that is prominent in the media is Dr. Ryan T. Mullins trained at St. Andrews University in Scotland. It might be a good idea for some Armstrongists to look into his ideas rather than simply deal in the pontifications of HWA or spend their time churning prophecy. I have read some of Mullin’s material but I am still trying to figure out what he believes. I think it would be good if Armstrongists were to leave the bunker and study some of these things and thereby gain depth in their theology.
Jesus is the Key
The data that Jesus left with us points to a different way of engaging with the Cosmos. He did not define that modality fully but gave us an event that points us in the right direction. The event is the Ascension. Jesus ascended bodily in the view of many witnesses. The witnesses were early church members. They saw him rise up into the sky. But that kind of bodily locomotion doesn’t cut it for moving around the Cosmos of the size that Jesus himself created. I think the visible ascension into the sky was done for dramatic effect. It wasn’t technically the way the resurrected Jesus travelled.
If Jesus were “in time” and moving at a speed where he was visible to the human eye, where would he be right now in his ascension progress – maybe somewhere between earth and Alpha Centauri which is only 4.357 light years away? And if he were moving near or at the speed of light he would undergo time dilation. Time would pass much faster for us than him. This would result in a mismatch between our experience of time and his experience of time. If Jesus were bound by time and space, a day trip to the Third Heaven at divine speed might mean the passage of trillions of years for us earthlings.
The simple fact is that the speed of light is not fast enough for someone who needs to move around the Cosmos. The Cosmos is way too large. And, even so, an object with mass moving near the speed of light experiences infinite time dilation so that time effectively stops compared to an earthbound observer. Did the body of the resurrected Jesus have mass? That is an interesting question. Doubting Thomas felt Jesus and whatever Jesus was made of it gave resistance to Thomas’ hand.
Living and moving in time and space is clearly not useful for a resurrected human being like Jesus. It is too constraining for the mode in which Jesus, as God, operates. Jesus could not have ascended to heaven in such an environment in any reasonable time. The neo-classicists can say that God experiences another kind of time and not our constraining form of time – something else that gives him a succession of moments. But why not just say that he isn’t in time. And what we know as time is just an analog of how God chooses to order events. We already understand that he knows the future or predictive prophecy would not exist. God may organize time anyway he wants whenever he wants to do it. He is not bound by time. We also know that he does not have a one-track mind. Our minds are pretty much one-track. God can listen to millions of people pray and follow each prayer perfectly while also sustaining the Cosmos. While that still requires a succession of moments, the point is, God may think in very different ways than we can imagine, including in a non-linear, timeless way. It is not God who is constrained but our imaginations.
So, if you, like me, believe that you must consult the Book of God’s Works as well as the Book of God’s Words to gain an understanding of anything, then the idea of a temporal God collapses. And the Nicene brothers were right. But I will read about it more.
Surprised by God – a Probable Conclusion
I believe there is much about God that we will never understand. Maybe God in simplicity is time rather than existing in time. Maybe what we know as time in the Cosmos is an imitation of his personal essence somehow. I am at peace with the idea that I do not know what God’s actual relationship to time is. And I may never know no matter how smart God may make me one day. God told Moses, “I am that I am.” God has ultimate and unrestricted free will. Perhaps, when the truth outs, it will be a big surprise. It will not be about time but some other alternative we never considered. God is what he is. Moses just had to get over it. Some conjectures make more sense than others. But they are still conjectures. Maybe we will just have to get over it.

Moses said in Deuteronomy that God has revealed some things to us, but the secret things belong to God. Why doesn't he tell us more? All Scripture is inspired and is profitable.... to equip us for EVERY good work. We aren't told more because we don't have a need to know. Access to secrets in our government require more than a security clearance. One needs a NEED TO KNOW also. Besides not needing to know, I suspect that our vocabulary and intellect is deficient for him to communicate accurately and for us to understand more.
ReplyDeleteSo, like Job and Habakkuk, we let it go and live by faith. It's alright with me if God knows more than I do.
I think the guy here who wrote all this has wrapped his tongue around his feet and now he trips himself up. More word salad. Who darkens counsel with words a-plenty?
ReplyDeleteArmstrongism lacks a well-developed theology.
ReplyDeleteYet it makes more sense than most other stuff out there and it produces (generally) far better Christians.
If you really believe this you have not learned much of the man, his methods, and plain lies. Nor are you qualified to assess the status of all believers on earth to make such judgements.
DeleteAnon @ 4:28:49 PM PST………My goodness you have set the bar very low. And your comment about Armstrongism producing (generally) far better Christians shows you have ‘generally’ real world doubts. I am really cracking up at your words….
Deleteand I add as a PS: Armstrong whose doctrines are disproven many times over concerning the salvation offered by Christ, his false gospel of a prophetical kingdom, his false need of works and alleged keeping of the law, his false commission proven wrong every time a prophecy failed, and the list goes on , too long to write here - proves you have not learned anything of the man
DeleteNo Sabbath Christians laugh at the low perverted traps you plan for them to fall into. Yet they avoid your traps again and again.
DeleteGod is a good kind God and saves his people repeatedly. Do you know goodness?
At least Armstrongites read the bible. 99 percent of other Christians do not know the difference between one OT prophet and another, and could not care less about good behavior because Jesus supposedly did it all for us.
DeleteWell anon 8:03:16 AM PST……’At least Armstrongites read the Bible’. It would seem they are more than a little confused about the bible looking at their massive divisions and adherence to demonstratedly flawed doctrines like BI. I would put it to you that many Christians do know the difference between the Old and New Testaments. And do indeed care that good behaviour is part and parcel of Christianity. Bet you voted Republican last election and wear a MAGA cap lol. But of course Armstrongites don’t vote.
DeleteMany writers talk about how dumb Herbert was, but he wrote far more intelligible books and articles than they ever will. And he raked in a pile of money in the mean time. And he evaded justice in the process. Not all that stupid after all.
ReplyDeleteMost of what Herb wrote was a copy and paste from his eleven year stay in the COG7. He's no intellectual.
DeleteI think I've just been hit with a double whammy! Lately, I've been reading some of Dr. Robert Kuhn's materials on consciousness. It is not any easier to understand the essence of man than it is the essence of God.
ReplyDeleteBB
I do not believe it is essential for salvation to understand whether God is temporal or atemporal. That knowledge will come to us in due season. At the same time, I want to know as much as I can about God. I will keep that spirit of inquiry with me throughout the rest of eternity. I am curious about him and am not ashamed of that fact.
ReplyDeleteI am always amazed at the slackers who are always ready to deride an interest in God. I found many of these people in the Armstrongist ranks. It is one of the reasons why the “one and only” true church has never produced a detailed systematic theology. And they seem to believe God is unimpressive. After all, one of these days they will be God-as-God-is-God themselves.
Scout
How far up onto the Tree Of Knowledge are we allowed to climb up into?
DeleteHow high will God allow us to build the tower(s) of Babel? Strasbourg bldg., anyone?
What scathing cruel bitterness you disregard others in 'Scout'. I pity your brethren.
DeleteI agree, Scout. (@ 6:25) The seeking of truth is a process in which every answer raises additional questions. We ought to all desire to learn more! In Armstrongism, most saw truth as a final destination, at which one arrived by thoroughly knowing the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong, all of which they equated with the Bible. HWA was revered as a quasi-Biblical character (God's Apostle), a being who stood above our evaluation, and whose wisdom was unquestionable, "But, Mr, Armstrong says....." was a frequent response to those whose questions went beyond the established "low bar". As I've observed before, for most WCG members, HWA was the most intelligent, logical, and articulate individual in their lives, now seen as an ascended master. I mean, we can plainly see that through the majority of anonymous comments above. He did a pretty darned convincing impersonation of the Wizard of Oz, and the continued reverence of that persists in its limitations even today!
DeleteBB
I don't believe that God is uncreated. I believe he created himself. The frequent fibonacci ratios in the human body and face means design. All the pro life drives and biases in the human brain again means design. In the realm in which he "grew up in," this was somehow possible. But not with our present laws of nature that he created.
ReplyDeleteAn intriguing question is why are there two God beings and not more. Could there have been a civil war that reduced the number? The large number of vicious, predatory animals in nature hints at this.
A god that never appears in reality is identical to a god that does not exist
DeleteDoes God build a rock too heavy for His own self to lift?
DeleteHow can something that does not exist create itself? Our minds cannot comprehend The no begining Existence of The I AM, , it blows our minds, but our minds kinda explodes when we think that He was created, because then the one that created The I AM, then becomes God, We end up in a eternal question cycle. It makes more sense just to accept The I AM word, and believe HimThat there was none before Him. As for 2 well, the energy we use every day requires 2 wires to produce power.
DeleteI am always amazed at the slackers who are always ready to deride an interest in God. I found many of these people in the Armstrongist ranks.
ReplyDeleteTotal nonsense. This is just shameless unfair bashing of Armstrongism. The brainwashed Armstongites were bible fanatics. They were totally interested in God and many of them studied very hard. There are way more slackers and disinterested people in other churches.
Bible fanatics indeed. Faithfully entering highlights, and fine pen notes in their wide margin bible - all duplicating the gospel and doctrines of Armstrong. Why do I say so? Because I was such fanatic. Fasting each sabbath doing the same.
DeleteSo riddled with error the much marked bible is not worth the keeping. Best placed in the bin. Your defence of the FANATIC means little if anything. Time has come for defenders to actually wake up and learn the scriptures outside the confines of the false one true church..
Agree 8:41. Cruel bullies. They are verbal bullies who jump to conclusions about others 'religious worth'. They are the elite and God is not allowed to know others outside their clique.
DeleteI truly believe they would complain to Jesus Himself if they saw others they don't approve of at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
The reason HWAs followers have never developed a 2000 year long philosophy of everything under the sun is because they have not been around for 2000 years like other churches have. And because they do not get into the even longer "secular" philosophy.
ReplyDeletethey claimed a link to the original 2000 years ago, and the claimed Armstrong RESTORED the truth from that first century - therefore your apologia of the fake apostle is worth nothing at all
DeleteWhen God, in the burning bush on holy ground told Moses to return to his people and tell them the enouraging news that He had seen their sufferings and was going to help them, 'I Am' was Gods remark for Moses to grab the immediate trust of the leaders of the Israelite slaves tribes.
ReplyDelete'I AM' was Gods sincere remark to let the slaves know He was the God of their ancestors, that he wasn't a fake false God but the time was now. God was going to interupt the most powerful empire on earth. It was real. Moses was the real deal sent by the same real God who dealt with Abraham.
In Gen 18 Abraham himself said to God ' I who am but dust.." in his discussion with God on if he found 30 or ten righteous people would he spare Sodom.
It's significance in that time frame may be lost on people now in 2026. But it meant far more than a throw away remark that "Moses had to get over it".
Time, as we know it, is physical- it was created. (Just had this conversation with a friend a few days ago.) Speculation on what time may be a physical analogue of is interesting to some of us, but that is all it can be- we are also created and would not (could not) understand it. We simply do not have the tools to understand God while we are confined to creation.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 11:46 wrote, “But it meant far more than a throw away remark that "Moses had to get over it".
ReplyDeleteThat was not a throw-away remark. I presented the sense of what “I am who I am” means to me and I was serious about it. There are many interpretations of the Tetragrammaton. In it, I see God’s absoluteness. He is stating that he has unrestricted freedom. He is what he wills to be. I could go on. Do not mistake something that is brief for something that is “throw-away.”
My guess is that most Armstrongists who think about it would find the absoluteness of God unacceptable. There can be only one absolute being (I would have to write an article to convey this very briefly). Coinherence makes the Trinity one being. Armstrongists believe that they will become God-as-God-is-God. This cannot happen if God is absolute. He only is God-as-God-is-God. That is why in scripture it says Christians will be “partakers” of the divine nature. We will partake in a limited way of God’s nature. We will not become God.
Moses asked for a personal name. But God gave him an identifying phrase that reflected God’s ontology. I am saying that this was not the easiest route for Moses who had to convey all this to the Israelites. He just had to deal with it. Like it is not easy for us to understand God’s attributes. We just have to deal with it.
Scout
Scout
ReplyDeleteAnother excellent post. I for one appreciate your spirit of inquiry and thinking outside the box. You always raise the bar.
Even though I don't always agree with your conclusions, more often than not you have actually confirmed mine. A case in point is your knock on Armstrongism for lacking a well developed, detailed systematic theology. My view is, the Christian movement as we know it is also guilty of such, and your post clearly demonstrates that fact by acknowledging the many views, the weak and strong schools of thought, and the blight of controversy driving them all. I hate giving Dennis credence, but where does this NOT exist?
Christianity is divided into 41,000 denominations which includes the ARMSTRONG movement. From a doctrinal perspective (not the buffoonery), it is my opinion that Armstrongism is no better or worse than any other. Slackers exist in them all, along with confusion, accusation, hypocrisy, you name it. They all have some truth but want you to believe they have THE "truth" and are the attributors of such. The many humorous and ongoing debates one can watch on YouTube affirm that fact.
You bring out 2 powerful points worth everyone's consideration:
1). There is much about God that we will never understand (at least in this lifetime), and (2) Jesus is the KEY (if we can manage to escape all the confusion and division concerning Him).
In my mind the obvious answer is not "denominations", factions and movements, but the primacy of the individual, where interest, curiosity, and a continual pursuit of understanding the mind of God still counts. You know, those things the Holy Spirit can and will work with!
Great post Scout about "time." I do know this, all the sermons and articles written up about the "time of the end" by Armstrongism is futile, because actually the time of the end is pretty much the end of our lives. Since the bible says the dead are sleep, so the next second afterward is ..... So God's understanding of time is infinity more than ours. He's on a continuum and it's His game of time.
ReplyDeleteTank