Is It a Sin to Notice Prayer Doesn't Work as Advertised?
This is a tough one. The faithful will get defensive on the outside but know what I'm asking is true on the inside. Apologetics will follow along "But God still knows what's best for us," "The wisdom of man is foolishness with God," "My ways are not your ways," "There is a way that SEEMS right unto a man, but...." "The wisdom of man is foolishness with God," and so on. God always wins.But is so bad to simply ask based on experience and observation, what do these promises mean if there is a God behind them with the power to do as stated?
"Dear God, I need rent money.... "
"No"
"Dear God, bless our Church and help the work to grow."
"No"
Dear God, please heal my cancer, my condition, my life, my heart, my soul, my illness."
"No"
"Dear God, Please let my child live..."
"No"
"No"
I think we get the point.
Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 17:20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
Matthew 21:21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.
Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
John 14:12-14 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
, Matthew 18:19 Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
James 5:1-16 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
So here we go.
"Dear Heavenly Father. Thank you for my life and for calling me into the truth. Please bless the work of God. Please watch over Mr. Armstrong and bless the college. Thank you for your mercy and bringing me here to learn more about your word. Help me to be a good student and to learn all that is taught to me of your truth. Please use me in you're work because that is why I have come these 3000 miles against my family's wishes for. I promise to teach faithfully and with a humble spirit. . Thank you that you have allowed them not to question the wisdom of this choice. Please use me someday in your work. I came here to study your word and learn your ways. I do wish to help your people as a minister.
Please watch over all the children whose Angels do watch over them. Protect them and love them so they can also come into your truth. Bless Mr. Armstrong and all the ministry with wisdom and true love for the brethren. Protect your work from those that would harm it. Help me to inspire and teach your people correctly
and to be patient with those who don't understand.
and to be patient with those who don't understand.
Thank you so much that I have found the truth and a church that is united in hope and doctrine and one in charity and love. "
I think we get the point here. Just make up your own or remember the ones you offered up. We all know how well those requests all went. The Church tanked, the truth changed, New errors were added to or replaced older ones. Mr. Armstrong was not a man to listen to advice and council. The college tanked along with all congregations for the most part. Unity and Harmony was a joke. Children whose Angels do watch over them were killed for inattention, mistakes in where they swam or how not to look at a gun. Many died not seeing that car or forgetting to pay attention to driving when driving. Oh yes, don't forget falling under a hedge hog mower or those crushed under the weight of farm machinery. And when all else failed, remember those surviving parents who were not comforted by "You'll see them again in the kingdom," "At least you have other children," "God won't give you more than you can handle," or "God's ways are not YOUR ways."
Have you ever asked for something, even something that was good and right and would be of great encouragement and deeply appreciated, and gotten it?
Have you asked Go
Do you think it would be wise if whenever anyone asked for anything, they got it?
Do you wonder why when it says you will, you never did or don't?
If the Bible is seriously true and tells the real truth about how life can work for those called according to his purpose, something is seriously wrong here.
Has your faith ever moved a mountain? Does this mean that the best faith I ever had was not even as big as a mustard seed so it's all our fault anyhow? If nothing is impossible for me, does the impossible ever really happen when I ask, seek and endeavor to find? Of course not.
I remember sitting in a feast audience as the minister of the day was raving about how God intervened and saved a congregant's child from a terrible auto wreck. He went on and on quoting all the right scriptures and I cringed. I had just buried the teen killed in a wreck of people sitting a few rows over from me. I imagine in an audience of a few thousand, scores are sitting there feeling faithless and cursed because "in my house it was not so." At the noon ministerial luncheon I talked to him about it. While I understood what he meant, I asked him if he realized there are dozens of parents now unable to eat their lunch because God did nothing of what he promised to their children. I asked him if he realized the pain he caused to many more than just the good spoken of for one. I asked him to think about the wisdom of that and maybe he needed to be more careful in the future. He just looked at me like I was nuts.
It reminds me of David saying, "I have been young and now I am old and I have NEVER seen a righteous man beg bread." Really David? Did you ever get out of the Palace much? I've seen that a lot.
I have laid hands on hundreds and hundreds of very sick people. Let's see. How many were healed of death dealing illness such as cancer? How many of the blind did I restore or deaf came to hear again? In my youthful ministry and the week after I was ordained a local elder I had my first opportunity to anoint someone. I have never told this story that I remember and know my family does not know this. I anointed my own brother who is literally blind, deaf and cannot speak. Birth defects and trauma. We sat on the bed upstairs in the home of my youth. I layed hands on his head and he made his typical noises wondering what I was doing but took it all rather patiently. I said something like....
Dear Heavenly Father, I come to you for the first time in my life as a minister in your church. I can now follow James 5:14-16 and anoint your people who you promised to hear if they called upon you. ( I know, my brother didn't ask me to do this, but he couldn't remember?! ) I ask you to restore my brother's sight. I know this sounds impossible but please restore his missing eye that he lost to glaucoma when he was 12. Please restore his hearing and in your mercy, please restore his speech. How impressed and grateful my parents would be! We know your word and what you say about this. Please hear me and thank you for placing me in the ministry...In Jesus name....amen.
Well, I meant well. Of course he is still blind and deaf and can't speak. Actually he's on Social Security now, lives in a huge group home and has someone who advocates for him because he can't. I have to say he has done better than I have to this point. Maybe it's a joke on me. Yeah that's it! I would be better of in life after WCG promised for years "we will take care of you," (boy did they) by poking my eyes out, cutting out my vocal cords and pouring superglue in my ears. The Kingdoms of this world at least would have helped me out a bit.
"Ask anything," "I will do it," "Anyone," "Whatever you ask," "...will raise the sick," are very big promises. They also are not true.
Oh I know, "Dennis, you don't have any faith."But God still knows what's best for us," "The wisdom of man is foolishness with God," "My ways are not your ways," "There is a way that SEEMS right unto a man, but...." "The wisdom of man is foolishness with God," and so on. God always wins. The requester is always wrong and has totally missed the true intent of what God meant. "Let all men be found liars..." or something like that.
"Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them." Really? Where is this going on? My experience is that where two or three are gathered together in your name, one declares themselves in charge, one gets to follow and one get's to clean up after the first two. I guess I missed something in my experience.
Remember, these are not just philosophers pontificating in their Ivory Towers. This is what JESUS said. Nothing could be more clear if it wasn't so iffy and untrue. I expect if we gathered thousands of really true Christians and they all strictly went by these teachings of JESUS, and we all prayed for all war to stop, all disease to end, all hate to become love and for all God's children who are red and yellow, black and white and are precious in his sight to go to bed fed and loved from now on, we'd know how it would go.
It's still going that way.
Don't tell me this will all be fixed in the Kingdom. Don't tell me God just hasn't answered yet or that "sometimes the answer is no." I can deal with sometimes, but not never since these are the clear teachings of Jesus and the really true Apostles.
A word from the pagan, uncalled, uninspired, unfaithful, unchristian Epicurus, know for his epicurean paradox.
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" — Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief
I could not have said it better myself. Am I the only one who notices this or dares to speak it? Did Jesus lie or not mean what we think he meant? Does healing not mean healing or given not mean given? Is the Bible speaking in some kind of code we can't figure out or just being plain wrong and lying about how it all is?
"Grandfather...is this some kind of joke?"
Warm regards on these hot topics...
Dennis Diehl...formerly called "Mr." :)
No one should assume that the Scientologists will have their prayers answered by their god.
ReplyDeleteSince we seem to be speaking mainly of Armstrongists, why would anyone believe that there is any god who would answer the prayers of delusional people who believe in the Science Fiction alternative history of British Israelism, when it is all basically the same as a weird Sabbath keeping Scientology?
Now what is really startling is that Herbert Armstrong and L. Ron Hubbard died within two weeks of each other in January 1986, just a few miles of each other.
The only real difference is that there are a millions more Scientologists than Armstrongists and the Scientologists seem to be better rooted in their faith because they haven't really had that many splits.
Perhaps the most effective solution to this problem is a new group: Church of God, Dianetics.
Dennis D,
ReplyDeleteI found your post interesting and as I read it various thoughts came to my mind.
For example, you spoke about faith, and I was reminded of Romans 12:3
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
If God does not deal that faith out, then how will one have that faith (fruit of God's Spirit)?
Christ also wondered if there was much faith around while He walked this earth. In reality, there just may not be much of a measure of that faith, spoken of in Romans 12 (proportion in verse 6), within human beings unless and until God does deal it out, but that would be His choice for His purpose.
For whatever reason, Christ also told us this:
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive..." John 14:17
You talked about evil and what others (some philosopher?) thought about evil, and I recalled the words of Romans 8:20, which says:
"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"
What's the hope? There is hope!
What you've said about making requests to God for this and that, and the results you've seen for "answered prayer," has been evident for all to see and acknowledge in our lives.
Usually when such prayers are made I must also add, "...but Thy will be done." As you know, none of us has a perfectly thinking mind 100% of the time and besides, even Christ said that of Himself He could do nothing. Yet there were works evident in His life, depending upon God's will, God's Spirit, working in His life to accomplish those works.
Whether people are healed today or not, I have confidence that the following verse will one day be fulfilled for all human beings...including your brother with glaucoma (something that plagues my eyes too, but I'm not blinded by it):
"Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise." Jeremiah 17:14
John G
Here is a recent response I received to this article. My answer follows. I will leave the email off the message
ReplyDeleteDennis Diehl
"I've been reading your 'anti-armstrong/no-god' blog for some weeks, following the UCG-COGaWa debacle, and since you're into highly original comments, here's one I bet you haven't heard (1000 times yet):
Psalms 14:1 ... The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
This pretty much sums up your blog....foolish, bitter, myopic, predictable, rambling, and often typographically-challenged (lots of misspellings)....
Even with all the mutual 'crap' you've compiled from myriad other myopic self-promoting vilifiers, your personal scope of the entire HWA-WCG experience can never be more than very minuscule, personal and hopelessly arbitrary.
Even if what little you say about HWA and the WCG and splinters is basically true, the remaining 99.999% of the unfathomable experience goes completely unconsidered....so much for minimal accuracy (less than 0.001%) and objectivity. You should reconsider such a colossal blunder of short-sightedness; its as if you are STILL operating like a WCG minister.
To live a life of no hope (atheism) is miserable compared to an active life of FAITH. When a believer is in trouble he cries out "O 'God,' help me!" And when he is eventually saved, he is thankful. What do you cry out? "Oh God" or "G. D. it," I'm sure....because you can't completely wipe out the pre-programmed knowledge of the Creator from your mental ROM, can you? Because HWA didn't put THAT there.
Since no one will know that there is "god," until he sees him in the flesh or dies (no I didn't just contradict myself), a wise man chooses to believe in the Creator rather than not. He reasons that the positive benefits of a life of FAITH greatly outweigh the crushing loneliness, purposelessness and bitterness that always accompany ATHEISM. And if there turns out to be no 'god' in the end, it was still a greatly improved life. If there is 'god,' then the 'unprofitable servant' goes into an unimaginable bonus round.
Yet, so what if there's no reward after this life? If you're doing it for the reward, is that agape love? or, like all the self-seeking folks you describe in your blog, just for personal gain? FAITH in the Creator is a worthwhile mindset even without the resurrection, pal.
The bottom-line question for me: is the m.o.of your blog really any better than that of the people whose actions you consistently paint as diabolical, stupid, and clueless? Are you not doing the same thing that you did when you were a WCG minister? Then what a waste of time if you believe what you blog....
Because, like Job (another guy who thought he had this 'god thing' figured out), you might actually be WRONG about all this 'religion is big business' and 'the opium of the people' stuff.
For me, if a life of great joy, accomplishment, and worthwhile experiences, plus agony, long sadness, hard times and tragedy (most of which was my own fault) has not dimmed my faith in the Creator, how could your little toxic blip of a blog possibly hope to make a dent in anyone else's?
If there is "god," you're still serving his purpose in another way without knowing it. If there is no "god," then you're still blogging about NOTHING after all these years and that every single day.
Again, what a waste of life....why not tell us about your stamp collection or how you felt when you first became a father? Contributing something positive to the aggregate....
"A-dios!" whoops, sorry, "A-nihilos, amigo!"
Thank you for taking the time to write. Everyone has a perspective based on personal experience. First of all, it is not my blog. I have nothing to do with the vast majority of that blog. My occasional articles are picked up by the blog owner and used. I write nothing that does not have my personal name attached to it.
ReplyDeleteI don't have all the answers nor pretend to. You don't know me personally or the "kind" of minister I was, what I taught and even what parts I skipped since it made no difference except to hurt people. I grew up Presbyterian so had no long childhood experiences with the Church of God.
At any rate, perhaps it's the seeking that is more rewarding than thinking we find the one true thing. You do have a rather hateful and uninformed tone yourself but I understand it. You are where you based on your life experiences and I am where I am based on mine.
I only write to get people to think about things before they get hurt by ideas that don't hold water. "(I left Email out of this at this point. It is one that is rather in your face by nature)" is rather a narrow opinion in itself and there are probably some who just look at your email and get uncomfortable.
Peace
Dennis
Had a problem with log in so did the "annonymous" thing, but tis me Dennis
ReplyDeletePS I do have a few typos at times and need to tighten that up. I tend to write quickly and filter out the typos at times. People like " " will always point out any glitch as more proof the content is suspect. The judgmental snark is typical of such types and personalities.
ReplyDeletePerhaps "---------" would like to send the blog owner an article explaining his views.
And Juan.....Evidently it IS a sin to notice prayer doesn't work as advertised
ReplyDelete:)
He is more than welcome to submit a comment to me at any time. If it is half way decent I might even post it to start a discussion with other readers.
ReplyDeleteI post articles from Dennis because they cause people to stop and think.
In Armstrongism we were expected to check our brains at the door (or the next booklet). I believe people need to use their brains.
You don't have to agree or disagree, but use it as an opportunity to say, "Hey, I never thought of it that way, I don't agree, but I now know where the person is coming from.
While this blog is in my name, there are two others that regularly feed me information and submit things.
Send me a note Juan...
Gary
I have often wondered in prayer, how much is God, and how much is the incredible power of the individual's mind to effect the desired change/result.
ReplyDeleteLet's keep it public....
ReplyDeleteAnd from "Youstupidathiest".....
"A much more a propo title would be:
Is It a Sin to Notice Prayer Doesn't Work as Assumed?
First of all, the Eternal resists the proud and doesn't even hear their prayers. That covers the vast majority of stupid and carnal requests.
Most believers' prayers are self-centered and self-willed, hence not deserving a response either.
It is ignorant or deceptive to present the Savior's statements on prayer out of context, as if He was saying, 'hey, just ask for whatever you like, I'll give it to you, no problem!" Neither the Father nor the Son paraded their miraculous power around like a carrot on a stick tempting weak-minded unskilled idiots with a genie's lamp of sorts. Not very clever.
The Son of Man asked if He would find faith on the earth...the answer, very little.
Faith is a major condition required for receiving answered prayer. Doubters needn't expect to be rewarded for lack of faith.
Strangely, however, after I learned to humbly and with constant and deep daily repentance approach the throne of mercy and pardon, and with an increasing understanding of what to pray for, my prayer life was transformed....
Now, my prayers are dealt with sometimes in minutes as with a recent healing, sometimes in days or weeks or in a few months or years, and usually with just the right timing. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but always, in retrospect, in "working together for good..."
This is not self-deluded, its just that most will never come to communion with their maker except to GET something. Since He owns everything already and promises to provide our needs (Matt.6:33), I spend most of my prayer in praise, thanksgiving, and asking for spiritual gifts for my brethren, family and myself, which are consistently and positively answered with great blessings and new understandings.
Moses parted the sea and Joshua withheld the sun's movement, making a mountain seem a molehill. Those with no REAL faith can ever know the POWER of prayer.
Perhaps you should try this approach? It will take some time and sincere effort but mostly deep humility and repentance.
Yule Neverknow"
Dennis
Let me take a moment to give an answer
ReplyDeleteDennis
"First of all, the Eternal resists the proud and doesn't even hear their prayers. That covers the vast majority of stupid and carnal requests."
I don't personally feel proud. I feel it's fine to "prove me now herewith..." on the obvious statements made that are pretty huge and rather direct
"Most believers' prayers are self-centered and self-willed, hence not deserving a response either."
And you know this? That's a bit like saying one is using "human reasoning." What kind do you use??? Please don't say "God's" because that would self centered and selfwilled of you.
"It is ignorant or deceptive to present the Savior's statements on prayer out of context, as if He was saying, 'hey, just ask for whatever you like, I'll give it to you, no problem!"
Once again, and you know this??? Why are they out of context? Out of what context?
"Neither the Father nor the Son paraded their miraculous power around like a carrot on a stick tempting weak-minded unskilled idiots with a genie's lamp of sorts. Not very clever."
Sure they did. Have you ever read the story of the Exodus and the 40 year journey of the Israelites to walk a two week trek into the Promised Land?
"Faith is a major condition required for receiving answered prayer. Doubters needn't expect to be rewarded for lack of faith."
Actually most of the scriptures quoted say nothing of "but only if you have tons of faith."
"Strangely, however, after I learned to humbly and with constant and deep daily repentance approach the throne of mercy and pardon, and with an increasing understanding of what to pray for, my prayer life was transformed...."
I'm pleased for you to have that work out so well for you.
"Now, my prayers are dealt with sometimes in minutes as with a recent healing, sometimes in days or weeks or in a few months or years, and usually with just the right timing. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but always, in retrospect, in "working together for good..."
Again, I'm happy for you. I have had church members beat on my chest screaming "why????" and coming apart because their prayers were not answered as the texts indicate they would be.
"This is not self-deluded, its just that most will never come to communion with their maker except to GET something."
Isn't "ask whatever you will..." kinda like getting???? How does one ask for what they need and not sound like they are asking to "get" something??? Explain?
"Since He owns everything already and promises to provide our needs (Matt.6:33), I spend most of my prayer in praise, thanksgiving, and asking for spiritual gifts..."
Great, Happy for you. That's still not what those scriptures say.
"Moses parted the sea and Joshua withheld the sun's movement, making a mountain seem a molehill. Those with no REAL faith can ever know the POWER of prayer."
Actually in reality, Moses did not part the sea historically as you believe, and I used to, nor did Joshua really stop the rotation of the earth as stated. But we'll never solve that difference in our understanding of the story. I thought I had "Real" faith for many many years.
"Perhaps you should try this approach? It will take some time and sincere effort but mostly deep humility and repentance."
So making plain observations and asking real questions of the text makes me insincere, vain and unrepentant? And you know this???
How does one "try" to be sincere. How does one be ordered to be sincere do that? How sincere is being ordered to be sincere??? That's kinda like saying, "you MUST relax." The must ruins the relaxation.
"Yule Neverknow"
I know more than you think...
Dennis
“The primary tool of science is skepticism, whose light shrivels unquestioning faith”
ReplyDeleteDennis,
ReplyDeleteThis is one of your best posts yet. I believe you have been "called" by the Deity to minister (help) the children of the Worldwide Church of God.
As I mentioned before, your writngs should be assembled into a book, and sold on Amazon.com.
Thank you for sharing your WCG life experience, and being so plainfully truthful. I respect you above all of "Gawd's ministers".
Richard