Poor Apostle James Malm. The world is just one big evil meanie! Satan runs and rules everything resulting in him and the few remaining authentic Armstrongites of being persecuted all the time. Whoa is me! Evil, evil evil!
How sad it must still be to the COGgers who live such depressing lives. No joy, no beauty around them, no fun, no delight, just pure unadulterated evil at every turn. Of course, they see them selves as the logical recipients.
This is Satan’s world; everywhere you go you are smothered with temptations and buffeted by opposition. Often the converted are denied the best jobs, often being denied most of the available jobs; virtually everything is polluted and unclean, the beef you buy in restaurants and stores has been cut in the same facilities as the pork and is NOT biblically clean. In this world we sometimes have to endure opposition from spouses and neighbours, friends get suddenly hostile an families are divided by the faith. I needn’t continue further; we have all experienced our trials.
He then goes on to spread another of his lies:
Actually the grace filled Christians I know are delightful people, happy as clams, take care of the downtrodden and disenfranchised and go out of their way to make all that come into their presence welcome whether you are a believer or not. Since they are not burdened down by the heavy yoke of Malm's laws they live lives fully. So once again, Apostle Malm is proven to be a liar.God’s law and way engenders love, harmony and peace; it brings happiness, contentment and fulfillment. Very few converted people enjoy the fruits of God’s way’s in this world. We are not of the world, yet IN the world; this world is simply not a godly environment.
Why do Armstrongites lives their lives filled with the desire to find everything in life as wrong and evil or satanic? Because of that it is no wonder they lead such miserable, grumpy lives. Who would want to join any of their irrelevant splinter cults now? There is no hope, no joy, no fund. Nothing but evil and disgust at everything around them.
"Why do Armstrongites lives their lives filled with the desire to find everything in life as wrong and evil or satanic?"
ReplyDeleteMostly because the Bible itself actually tells them to. While humans can hunt and peck for the scriptures that attract them and match their own states of mind, the BIBLE ITSELF gives plenty of fuel to the idea that the world is depraved along with its inhabitants.
From "time is short..." to "conceived in sin", and from "there is none righteous, no not one..." to "Love not the world, neither the things in the world..." THE BIBLE invades host humans and reproduces its mind virus memes to all our harm.
I look at these zealots and realize they aren't making it up. They are reading it and applying it to the present. One sees the world as dangerous and can find plenty of scripture to support that. One sees humans can be nasty and can find the reasons for it in the Book. When all else fails, blame an evil fallen Angel. You can't have God without a Devil anyhow. Relatively speaking, you make me what I am.
There are plenty of sincerly dark sided Bible readers who take their cues from the Bible itself. While I can shake my head at the humans who claim to speak for God and just know how it all is and will be, I still hold the BIBLE itself accountable for all the drama. Its in the Book!
Yes, it is in the book.
ReplyDeletePracticioners of priestcraft have to keep all their victims feeling worthless and unworthy without their guidance and exoneration or they will have no followers to keep them in their exaalted positions and often lavish lifestyles.
That was true of the originators of the "scriptures" as well as those who now use their power centered writings to maintain their own positions.
But not all Christians look at the Bible as 100% literal and recognize that there is myth, metaphor and allegory throughout it. Those Christian I know would never have a thought similar to Malm and the conservative COG members. They do not even comprehend why people are that crazy!
ReplyDeleteLet us face it NO2HWA, Armstrongism is simply a religion of death. Nothing more.
ReplyDeleteI know most Christians can easily say that they don't believe this or that story literally etc and can get out of embarassing scientific or historical exposure to what really is.
ReplyDeleteHowever, much NT doctrine is based on the OT being literally true. The Adam and Eve Myth gives birth to Original Sin and how women should or should not be compared to men etc.
The story of the Exodus, as told, gives rise to many Jesus analogies and doctrinal understanding. It never happened in reality or at least not as presented etc...
I know most Christians can easily say that they don't believe this or that story literally etc and can get out of embarassing scientific or historical exposure to what really is.
ReplyDeleteHowever, much NT doctrine is based on the OT being literally true. The Adam and Eve Myth gives birth to Original Sin and how women should or should not be compared to men etc.
The story of the Exodus, as told, gives rise to many Jesus analogies and doctrinal understanding. It never happened in reality or at least not as presented etc...
I don't believe it is right to make rules and doctrines that really hurt or affect others in a negative way based on mythologies and bad history.
The "we are all sinners and need redemption" comes from the concept of Original Sin but if they story is not real, then the NT conclusions about humans is not real either based on that example.
Armstrongism doesn't produce happy people. I was coming to that conclusion (albeit kicking and screaming) when the "changes" happened.
ReplyDeletePrior to that upheaval I too spent way too much time trying to find the problem in myself or with "the world" rather than question the belief system.
We were taught by Armstrongism that this is Satan's world. That is actually contrary to scripture. Jesus told his disciples that everything had been turned over to the Son, that the Father had given Him power over everything. He conquered, and His followers get to experience freedom, and deep inner joy, in spite of the fact that we still live in a partially cursed creation. God even uses the evil present in the cursed creation, turning it around to suit His purposes, and to make good come from it. We are gradually exposed to situations which build our faith, preparing us for the Kingdom. It's all an outgrowth of our personal relationship with Father God.
ReplyDeleteIt grieves me deeply every time I read things written by HWA's followers which indicate that they are missing out on an entire layer of deeply spiritual experiences and blessings because they are so hung up on works based legalism. And, HWA was by no means the only false teacher to rob his followers of this layer! Is it any wonder that so many former followers of HWA have given up on God? Armstrongism was a totally bogus experience. The fruits and aftereffects prove as much.
By the way, I do agree that the New Testament is based on the Old Testament being true. The OT pointed the way to Jesus Christ, who actually confirmed for us by name certain of the OT characters who came before Him. The Bible is probably the most disputed and debated book ever written in the history of mankind. To paraphrase Shakespeare, "They protesteth too much."
BB
"Jesus told his disciples that everything had been turned over to the Son, that the Father had given Him power over everything....in spite of the fact that we still live in a partially cursed creation."
ReplyDeleteHow does that work? I don't have a magic ghost dwelling inside me, so it is very hard for me to understand this concept.
"God even uses the evil present in the cursed creation, turning it around to suit His purposes...."
What purposes? I know his ways are higher than our and blah blah blah, but surely you have some idea since you are privy to the fact that evil is part of his Big Plan.
".....and to make good come from it."
Like what? I don't see how the rape and murder of a child, or genocide, can produce good. I mean, if there is a valuable Life Lesson that the survivors learn from all this (sin is bad! we needs god!) why couldn't god just send an angel with all the supernatural fanfare (to gets our attention) and like, you know, tell us? Trust me, I would listen. I know, I know. His ways are mysterious.
Bob, you are an intelligent human being, a deep thinker- yet you can produce some of the most wacky bullshit this side of the planet.
Paul Ray
"But not all Christians look at the Bible as 100% literal and recognize that there is myth, metaphor and allegory throughout it."
ReplyDeleteDo these Christians recognize the divinity of Christ?
Paul Ray
"But not all Christians look at the Bible as 100% literal and recognize that there is myth, metaphor and allegory throughout it."
ReplyDeleteDo these Christians recognize the divinity of Christ?
Not sure how Statement 1 and Question 1 can have a 1:1 relationship. Did you really mean, "Unless you take the ENTIRE bible literally, including whole books that make no mention of Jesus, you can't believe in the divinity of Christ"? Because, if so, you are very naive about what Christian faiths, other than yours, believe and that seems quite presumptuous.
I am in no way a Christian, partly due to the fact that they are all over the map as to what they actually believe about the bible. No two faiths (sects?) can seem to agree on what should be the most fundamental dogma of the religion.
"Did you really mean, "Unless you take the ENTIRE bible literally, including whole books that make no mention of Jesus, you can't believe in the divinity of Christ"?"
ReplyDeleteMmmm...thinking more as to how someone can label certain fantastical supernatural events in the Bible as myth and allegory, yet believe that another, equally fantastical supernatural event in the Bible is to be taken literally.
"Because, if so, you are very naive about what Christian faiths, other than yours, believe and that seems quite presumptuous."
I don't believe in imaginary beings in the first place, and yes, I am sure that there are all kinds of flavors of belief in imaginary beings that I am ignorant of, and if I was wise enough to take the time to investigate them, I would understand....something about this particular religion centered around this particular imaginary being.
Paul Ray
"By the way, I do agree that the New Testament is based on the Old Testament being true. The OT pointed the way to Jesus Christ, who actually confirmed for us by name certain of the OT characters who came before Him"
ReplyDeleteGood point and I feel the same as you Bob.
The facts are there if one has the desire to look. There is adequate, and mounting, evidence that many of the events that occurred during the span of time covered in the Torah have been verified by Archeology.
Many places where events occurred as recorded in the book of Joshua have been verified. Religious sites of the Israelites are being uncovered like Joshua's altar on Mt. Ebal in Samaria to name just one. The physical proof is there, at least enough to tip the scales in favor of the Old Testament accounts.
No not all has been verified and much never will because of all the wars and conquest through time much evidence has been completely destroyed or covered over by many feet of soil. But much is being gradually unearthed from under layers of debris.
Two hundred years ago someone could say where is your proof anything in the Old Testament actually occurred. One would be hard pressed to offer much. But now that is no longer the case and there is plenty of physical evidence of the place and events that occurred.
The very freedom to openly debate the Bible, it's authenticity and/or authority, The freedom to defend or denigrate this holy Book and no one gets killed or imprisoned. What a unique situation in most of history.
Just don't try this with the Qur'an in many parts of the world, or here soon for that matter.
In reference to some content foumd within this highly debated book -
Those ten commandments given at Mt. Saini that so many folks find so odious and restrictive, try reading them backwards and see if the One who came up with the concept of "loving your neighbor as your self," in the end, (by the last three going backwards) isn't a Guy who, if not God, should be.
Michael
Looks like we agree on some aspects of this, Michael Maynard.
ReplyDeleteBottom line for me is that it not only works, but has also provided some much needed healing, at long last! Imagine that. A former staunch atheist and agnostic takes the ultimate challenge, subjects it to an extreme acid test, and just look what happens!
Having been a non-believer myself, I know my testimony counts for nothing, because it is, well..... not objective, but life is so much more purposeful, and therefore enjoyable now.
BB
"Having been a non-believer myself, I know my testimony counts for nothing, because it is, well..... not objective..."
ReplyDeleteJust as you would discount the testimony of a pagan who is attempting to convince you of the existence of his many limbed god, right? You would be as skeptical as I am, in that position, and it would be a reasonable stance to take.
Would you be convinced of the existence of the pagan god based on the heartwarming, life changing personal experience of the pagan? And his testimony of the personal experience of others who converted to this pagan god? Of course you wouldn't- so why expect rational human beings to accept your testimony as proof of the existence and power of your own god?
Paul Ray
It's hard for me to fathom anyone who has honestly looked at the facts believing in "Jesus of Nazareth" when it has been proven that Nazareth never existed.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jesusneverexisted.com/nazareth.html
That isn't all that never existed. So called Old Testament passages foretelling Jesus were also inventions of imaginative theologians.
If your "belief" makes you happy, Michael and Bob, I wish you the best while I shake my head in wonderment. No way am I ever going back to that nonsense.
"Would you be convinced of the existence of the pagan god based on the heartwarming, life changing personal experience of the pagan?"
ReplyDeletePaul Ray, I would be most interested in hearing about any of the details that you wish to share of your personal experience with your "pagan god" and all the benefits that have accrued since your conversion.
If there is evidence only a fool would reject it.
Michael
"If your "belief" makes you happy, Michael and Bob, I wish you the best while I shake my head in wonderment."
ReplyDeleteAllen, maybe "wonderment" is not such a bad thing unless it is the only thing.
Happy is nice but abiding joy is more what I experience. It helps no matter whether times are happy or sad, joy never leaves me. It is a part of what Faith is all about. I can not speak for Bob but maybe he has that too.
But wonderment is good too, probably more than most "religious folks" will ever feel.
Michael
"Having been a non-believer myself, I know my testimony counts for nothing, because it is, well..... not objective, but life is so much more purposeful, and therefore enjoyable now."
ReplyDeleteBob, but look at Paul, he was totally biased against what Christ taught, a blasphemer of God and a Murderer of the saints trying to stamp out the very Church of Christ...then look what God was able to do through him.
I feel like I was like him in a small way wrapped up in the pseudo-Pharisaical religion of Armstrongism and now I really see how far away from true Christianity we were.
Michael
"Paul Ray, I would be most interested in hearing about any of the details that you wish to share of your personal experience with your "pagan god" and all the benefits that have accrued since your conversion."
ReplyDeleteI am not following here. Are you saying that very few pagans experience the wonderful, orgiastic peace and happiness that Christians feel?
"If there is evidence only a fool would reject it."
I agree. The problem here is the meaning of the word evidence. Most of us who frequent this blog have the same standard of evidence, give or take a few. We would all be skeptical of someone who promises us gold coin at $10 an ounce. We all would demand hard evidence if someone claimed to have a magic dragon living in their garage. When it comes to purchasing a used car we become more skeptical than Richard Dawkins.
We know that we live in the real world, and don't try to pull the wool over our eyes- we want to see evidence. We all relish hard, cold facts.
Except when it comes to your personal god. Then, suddenly, your reliance and love for rational skepticism, which you live by every day in all aspects of your life, suddenly exits the room. No, bad analogy. You take rational skepticism by the collar and throw him out the door, and slam it in his face. Then you proceed to mock him and talk about him behind his back.
Only when it comes to your personal god does your standard of evidence become so weak as to be useless. Suddenly, you don't want "proof." Words and intentions and feelings are good enough. It's very hypocritical.
I want to see you apply your standard of evidence that you use for your god (when it comes to other people's gods you use your "real world" standard of evidence) to your real life. When someone says that their miracle cure for cancer works, take them at their word. When a man claims he has a magic dragon in his garage, don't you dare ask for a photo- take him at his word and believe. Buy those gold coins at $10 and ounce without asking to see them first. Etc.
The reason you have two standards of evidence is because your personal god has never, ever measured up to rational inquiry. Therefore, you must invent a new standard of evidence by which you can "prove" his existence, and you are dumbfounded as to why the rest of us just won't buy into it.
Paul Ray
Someone I know told me his son's life was saved as a result of his son becoming a Muslim. His son's life had been on a bad track- a string of bad relationships, addicted to drugs, committing crimes, and serving time in prisons. It was in prison that his son converted, and I can't deny all the benefits that his son has accrued since converting. I see that his son now abides in joy, is happily married, is financially successful, is a loving father, and now has good relationships with his family(both close and extended).
ReplyDeleteThe changes in his life(particular deity of aside), would certainly be considered positive and even miraculous by Christians- an inspiration to testify and help others do the same.
Please don't get me wrong- I'm not advocating becoming a Muslim; I'm trying to offer food for thought and suggest there's a larger framework with which to view the phenomenon of conversion.
There are many other "conversions" which have produced such "miraculous" changes in peoples' lives, with people claiming what they converted to is what others need, while offering the attendant examples of "miracle-proofs"
What I've noticed is that people who "get joy" from what they've converted to(whether it's secular or non-secular), in order to keep their joy or high going, they need to continue their indoctrination on a regular basis, whether it be be reading from a book, listening to speakers, going to rallies, proselytizing, etc.
One other thing I'll add.:
Being happy and joyful is a great thing, I'm not knocking it! But I don't think it's not appropriate for emotions to be that way all the time. As I understand it, even Jesus was bummed out at times, and even he was a Christian.
It's even a stereotype that people too immersed in various belief-systems have a creepy "smiling all the time, even when inappropriate" thing going on.
I think it's unfortunate that when testifying, people sort of get into proclaiming, "My belief makes me more joyful than your belief ever could make you- I'm more joyful than you, and all of the time!"
And again, please don't get me wrong- I'm not advocating becoming a perennially "bummed out" person! Happiness and joy are wonderful emotions, but I believe there's good reason that there are other emotions, too.
If your "belief" makes you happy, Michael and Bob, I wish you the best while I shake my head in wonderment. No way am I ever going back to that nonsense.
ReplyDeletePrecisely, Allen! I have no intention of ever trying to "convert" a deluded person. Since the word "faith" implies belief without any evidence to support that belief, it's not worth spending the effort.
"The changes in his life(particular deity of aside), would certainly be considered positive and even miraculous by Christians..."
ReplyDeleteThis is a perfect example of the fallacy of using personal life changes as proof of the existence of a god. Muslims will point to this as proof, positive evidence (which only a fool would reject, right Mike?) of the existence of Allah- for how else could such a bad seed get on the straight path without supernatural intervention?
And if the son had converted to Christianity, this would be proof of the existence of the god of the Bible, at least for Christians.
The hypocrisy becomes evident when Christians refuse to accept this example as proof of the existence of Allah, though they would use the exact same example for proof of their own god if the son had converted to Christianity. Utter lunacy. If we are to accept Bob's life changes as proof of a god, then we must accept all life changes due to a god as proof of the existence of that god. Therefore, I can only come to the conclusion that all gods worshipped by man exist, because there are so many personal testimonies.
Paul Ray
Hello, I'm wondering if either something is awry with the technical aspects here, or if you found reason to cut some comments out.
ReplyDeleteI left a comment yesterday, and it showed up then, but I no longer see it it here.
Just for instance, off the top of my head IIRC, there were a few comments by a Michael Mayford that I no longer see.
"Hello, I'm wondering if either something is awry with the technical aspects here"
ReplyDeleteBlogger was down several hours yesterday and early this am, they said they had to remove some recent posts temporarily, but maybe they are gone for good.
Michael
TTDOCF
Michael:
ReplyDeleteBlogger was supposedly upgrading and fixing glitches. I could 'view only' for most of the week.