Getting Sodom
Straight...
The story that unfolds in Genesis 19 is a hospitality story and not a story based on homosexuality. Sodom's problems as remembered by Ezekiel were that the people were prideful, had too much food, too much time, neglected the poor, were haughty and committed abominations (Ez. 16:49-50). Not ANY mention of mass homosexuality. Abominations can be just about anything not in tune with the law and in this case was a reference to idol worship. Another common Israelite trait all through their history. Why would papa Lot offer his virgin daughter's to a crowd of homosexuals, in place of his guests? What interest would homosexuals have in virgin women? ZERO, unless the girls were being offered as an appeasing virgin sacrifice ("for they have not known a man.") This would qualify as an abomination to be sure, and also idolatry. Human sacrifice was still an option it appears with Abram and Lot.
Another factor is that in that culture the protection of guests under one's roof to a male host was a matter of honor. This is why Lot scrambled to come up with a solution to the problem. In Lot's mind, it was about Lot's reputation and honor. Not an uncommon modern theme in Middle Eastern men to this day. Strangers were not taken kindly to in small clannish towns. They could be spies and were always suspect.
The way to put a stranger in his place was to humiliate them sexually, and send the warning that they had best have no ill intentions in the town. In that culture, the most horrific way to humiliate a stranger and have power over him was to mistreat him as one might mistreat a woman. Symbolic or literal rape. The rape would not be a homosexual act, it would be a warning and a putting of strange man in his place as a warning. "In our town, you are just like any other woman, property to be used as needed and disposed of if necessary" It may only have been a threat to humiliate and control as the original request was for them to come out "that we might know them".
There are two schools of thought on "know them". One is sexual and one is to simply interrogate and get to know. Few ever question Lot's evil counteroffer. But it does show that Lot was a product of his culture and personal ego protection. Eastern hospitality issues were at stake here and not homosexuality. EVERY sermon I ever heard on the topic stops short of explaining Lot's egregious behavior as a father. I doubt this ever really literally happened, but if it did, Lot would be no hero of mine. I seriously doubt he had much of a relationship with the girls after this stunt, not to mention Mrs. Lot! Perhaps she did not so much look back to Sodom as refused to look ahead at him leaving town!
I have always found it amusing to inform fundamentalist males who literally believe that "women come from men and not men from women" as Paul ignorantly noted, that the human fetus starts out female. While the genetics to be male or female is there, the initial stages of conception put the fetus clearly in the female camp. Torture the Taliban with this fact! It is only after the fetus is bathed in the chemistry of testosterone after the fourth to sixth week does it literally start it trip toward maleness. Without that chemical miracle and it can be interrupted by many factors, including stress in the mother at the time, and the male born can be highly feminized in both thinking and body. We all know men who act very feminine who in fact are not homosexual but are oft accused of it. This would reflect such a deficiency in the womb. It's a big topic medically, environmentally and socially and I do not mean to address them in any detail. The information is out there.
I know many gay men and women (I am not gay), and there is not one that I
could see being anything but who they are. I have asked each one when they knew
their leanings sexually were toward their own sex and it is ALWAYS between 8 and
12 years old. They then, (I live in Fundamentalist Land), spend the next twenty
years having it prayed out, Bibled out, preached out and counseled out with
massive doses of fear, shame and guilt. At about age 30, they tend to finally
give up and admit, "I seem to be what I am." And accept themselves even if
others don't. One gay friend and their partner of 20 years recently met a
pregnant teen who was going to abort her child and long story short, they paid
for the birth, attended it and adopted the little girl as their own. At the
infant baptism ceremony she was taken to by the one of the partners, a member
"outed" them to the new Pastor (the old one was more don't ask don't tell), and
the next day the Pastor gave them a video to reform them. They were not not
interested in reform. To a gay person becoming heterosexual on command would be
the same as a heterosexual becoming gay on command. The next day they were
disfellowshipped from a life long church affiliation by the new pastor. So, you
be the judge. A gay couple saves a nearly aborted child, raises her like a
princess and gets bounced from their church after 30 years. WWJD?
I have always chuckled at Leonardo da Vinci's painting of the Lord's Supper. Everyone "knows" what they are looking at. 12 Men and One Jesus in the middle. Ah... but look again. Sitting on the right hand of Jesus is a woman, looking like a woman and in fact, probably being Mary, "the prostitute". Leonardo had his own opinions about WWJD and who He might honor in a society that would not agree. Perhaps we should be just as kind and respectful and not let the misuse of scripture taint our view of real human beings.
Dennis C. Diehl
Sorry, I don't know where the comments went! It must be pre-feast trial!
ReplyDeletesome I have been able resurrect below
ReplyDeleteSam said...
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is thanks to the COG for making me gay! I knew I was gay from an early age, but the church reinforced it even more. Being surrounded by so many males acting so strongly masculine, being in Spokesman Club with it's intimate atmosphere and reading Mr Meredith's articles on gays just kept making me more and more gay every day!
September 22, 2011 11:56 AM
Sharon said...
ReplyDeleteWow, things are pretty quiet here!
September 22, 2011 5:13 PM
DennisCDiehl said...
ReplyDeleteYeah, was thinking the same thing. It's that "oh I never knew that but I'd rather vent on something that happened to me," thing! ha.
I guess painbodies don't like new and improved theology over what we used to have to endure..lol well actually that has always been the pattern in number of responses and discussion.
September 22, 2011 5:41 PM
Sharon said...
ReplyDeleteDennis: I think the "gay thing" freaks people out. Armstrongists have been taught to revile and mock gay people yet their own churches were filled with gays and lesbians! Those of us that have left Armstrongism know first hand gay and lesbians people who are deeply rooted in their faith, despite the garbage dumped upon them by the church.
People who think they are "true Christians" do not know how to respond to people who's faith is actually deeper than their own. That freaks them out so they lash out in typical fits of rage and hate. Homophobia in the church is rampant. The gay people I know are better Christians than most of the Armstrongites I have ever worshiped with. That was enough to change my thinking over the years.
Rod Meredith and his cult have been on an anti-gay rant lately with the end of "Don't ask, don't tell" and gay marriage ordinances around the country. They see it as a sign of doom and the end of civilization. The problem I see is that the marriages I have seen in Armstongism and mainstream evangelicalism are nothing to be proud of! A loving gay couple certainly cannot wreck a straight couples marriage or the institution. Armstrongites and evangelicals don't care for the institution themselves. Look at the 40%+ divorce rate in churches today. Look at the rampant adultery and sexual escapades of most of the COG leadership. I say they had better get their own houses in order before they start attacking others!
Glenn said...
ReplyDeleteDen, good stuff. I think I read the basics before (something you had written elsewhere, actually). Makes sense to me. I never understand before how Lot could have offered to do such an evil thing.
I only knew that I knew 4 or 5 gay guys and about 3 lesbians in AC/WCG in 12 years. I never understood how gays could survive at all in WCG. Robert Kuhn once told me that homosexuality was an issue that he and others were going to work on after the introduction of the Standard Theology Project. I could only say, "Good luck with one!"
September 22, 2011 7:15 PM
I have always been amazed at the number of gay people that remain in LCG and PCG. How they can sit there and be degraded day in and day out is beyond me. One person told me years ago that "it was their cross to bear" as they wanted to remain true to what they'd grownup with.
ReplyDeleteUCG has at least made an attempt to dialogue with it's gay members though it requires them to be celibate. It's ok to be gay but just don't act on it - whatever the hell that means.
September 22, 2011 7:19 PM
Glenn said...
ReplyDeleteShould have written, "Good luck with that one.". Robert explained that the WCG needed to develop a better, more humane teaching on the subject of homosexuality. I agreed but thought there was no chance of that ever happening.
One minister now prominent in Gracie once told me that his advice for gay church members back in 1970's was "Don't be promiscuous". Dennis, I know you were kind to gays in your congregations. Maybe there were other ministers who showed some love and kindness to people who were really hurting over sexual issues.
September 22, 2011 7:40 PM
Douglas Becker said...
ReplyDeleteSo when a person repents, is baptized and receives the Holy Spirit, isn't it a new beginning wherein a person has a totally new spirit and a truly converted person may have various leaning to committing sin, but they have the power to be that different person they should be because they now have the mind of Christ?
If that were true, what could we assume about the people who are struggling with such things as smoking, drinking, going out and buying porn, spanking their 18 year old daughters and being lying false prophets?
I have learned more about the GLBT community since being in therapeutic massage than I ever did in WCG. I think I was always somewhat fascinated with those in church who seemed so to me and ultimately were. Also, working in this community, Bob Jones University has a large gay group of students and some faculty that, of course, they would deny and can't imagine being so.
ReplyDeleteOne student told me that he could fit in just fine there. He loved the art, music and drama program there and his not dating any girls or caring made him look like the perfect young man, compliant Christian "Joneser" as they call them.
I have some really funny stories with my gay clients. One Lesbian client gave me the best compliment ever. I asked her why she came to me , a male and she said, "Because I like you, I trust you and you are the only man that is ever going to touch me again!" Obviously she had previously been beaten half to death by a husband.
I have learned that I have no client that could be anything other than they are.
My clients often talk very bluntly with me about such things and I have learned naked people are more honest than most..ha. I realize now that in the past, that old suit and tie , office and desk made people tell me what they thought I needed to hear and i heard what I wanted to hear. I guess the line for counseling would have been around the block had I used the massage table instead.. LOL!
At any rate, thanks for the responses. Off to Asheville, NC for an Feldenkrais and Esalen Massage seminar. Three days in the Mtns beats a "Refresher" in California anyday!!
Dennis, I have avoided commenting on your articles. I do so because you are all over the road, so to speak, and obviously in a state of utter confusion, in biblical terms. One week an athiest, the next an agnostic, the next a Sophist, the next a Greek philosopher, the next a Bible preacher, the next week an Armstronite apologist, the next an anti-fundamentalist cult hater...and on and on you go.
ReplyDeleteDennis...SHUT THE HELL UP!
"Dennis, I have avoided commenting on your articles.... because you... are obviously in a state of utter confusion, in biblical terms.... SHUT THE HELL UP!"
ReplyDeleteMy guess Mike, is that you simply have nothing positive to contribute to the dialogue - per usual. It would be fantastic if you yourself took the unsolicited advice you spat at Mr. Deihl!
But let's be realistic. You're not in a state of confusion at all, are you? You're perfectly comfortable with the homophobic viewpoints of mainstream christianity, right? Those pesky gays are simply "an abomination" according to that dusty old tome you worship.
Why not just admit how you feel?
Mister Maynard,
ReplyDeleteI've heard that yelling, "SERENITY NOW!" or HOOCHIE MAMMA! can calm a person down.
Please try both and let us know which you find most effective.
On a related note, is it true that your benefactor Hoochie Mamma is withdrawing support for your foundation?
Call Michael, we'll chat and I will report your rebuttals here if you won't write on topic.
ReplyDelete864 905 5804
Dennis
He'll decline Dennis. I challenged him time and time again to a fair debate on his terms both here and on Armstrong Delusion and he never responded to any of the challenges. He'll probably ignore this one too - though I would simply love to be wrong in this case!
ReplyDeleteEz 16:49-50 "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50-And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good."
ReplyDeleteLittle or nothing about homosexual activity there. Amazing how many "Christians" don't even read the book they preach.
And Mike, don't label me, you'll never figure it out
ReplyDeleteIll be anxious to read your rebuttal on this topic.
Such is the way of the troll. He jumps into a conversation, slings a little mud and then runs away before things go bad for him. Pathetic.
ReplyDeleteI would like to give you legal notice Dennis Diehl, and any others involved, If you ever again take my comments from one site and add them to another site in an effort to ridicule, slander, demean, of libel me you all individually and severally, will find yourself in a very expensive and costly legal battle. I have sent notice to my legal council on this matter. Govern your selves accordingly. Signed, Michael Maynard.
ReplyDeleteCall Michael, we'll chat and I will report your rebuttals here if you won't write on topic.
ReplyDelete864 905 5804
Dennis
Once again I warn you Dennis, you will face a costly legal battle here. You have been warned. If you ever again try to copy my comments to another site I will hold you personally liable for any and all damages!
Michael Maynard
To: No2HWA
ReplyDeleteDate: 10/4/11
Formal Legal Notice
NO2HWA said...
some I have been able resurrect below
September 22, 2011 11:50 PM
The above included comments that I did not make responding to Dennis' On: "Getting Sodom Straight..."I am giving you legal warning that if you ever again place my personal comments on another thread where i did not comment, like here, i will seek damages. It is clear that Banned is no more than a ruse and there is nothing religious or Christian or that glorifies Jesus Christ in the least at this site..
Please delink "The True Doctrine of Christ blogfrom this site immediately.
Michael Maynard
The True Doctrine of Christ Foundation
Michael:
ReplyDeleteI have copied NONE of your comments here and reposted them, nor have I taken any of your comments from other threads and reposted them!
Your comment above directed at Dennis is directly from you and is nothing I had saved or was able to rescue. You commented AFTER that issue had been taken care of. Stop accusing me of something I did NOT do!
Your lashing out in anger is indicative of something far more personal than anything anyone has said here! People deal with the lies we were fed in Armstrongism in many different ways. Some move on and adjusted quickly and others lash out in anger for being sucked into a false belief system. Perhaps you should take stock of why you are so angry at this point.
The good thing is, it will go away eventually!
I have said nothing against you at any time so I don't know why the hell you have your panties in a wad with me! So again, stop accusing me for causing YOUR anger issues!
Oh, good topic, Dennis. I'm working on an article about homosexuality right now, too.
ReplyDeleteOh, and this Maytard fellow is quite beneath contempt, isn't he?
Michael Maynard
ReplyDeleteThe True Doctrine of Christ Foundation
LOL! Foundation. Sure, you delusional hack. Oh look, my "word verification" word is "ptful". How appropriate.
"I say they had better get their own houses in order before they start attacking others!"
ReplyDeleteAh, yes, the hypocrisy is so obvious. But "cleaning up" their own act wouldn't resolve anything. They would still view family as a divinely mandated institution, invented by Yahweh and revealed in the Bible. And that's the real problem. None of it is true.
Family existed in various forms long before the Hebrews came lolling down out of the hills and modified the available Canaanite myths to form their own religion, which itself evolved over time into the monument to bigotry codified in the Bible.
FYI to anyone reading here.
ReplyDeleteI have deleted some of the more libelous comments made by a commentator here that were directed towards another person who also comments occasionally. But,have left some of this persons comments up to so people can see what Armstrongism does to people.
I have never met more angry hate-filled people in what is supposed to be a "true restored church" in all my life. Something is greatly wrong with that picture!
At last, we have unearthed the True Doctrine of Christ! When all else fails, start hurling insults and lies! When that fails to make your case, threaten to sue!
ReplyDeleteI'm glad we cleared that one up!