Thankfully some of you have/are doing it.
Elijah Dave has taken a huge financial hit recently after his failed prophecies Money did not flow in along with new members after the Feast of Tabernacles last year. Now Elijah Dave is back telling his brain-dead members that they are to sell everything they have and send it to him.
Pack explains his interpretation of the phrase ‘all things in common’ (Acts 2:44 & 4:32): sell everything you have and send the money to him.
“It’s absolutely biblical that what we have, we sell, whatsoever we have, we give it to God’s work. That’s why we were called. You’re not allowed to hold on to your own income.”
“You are not allowed to hold on to your own assets. You have an income, you live a wonderful life, life goes on normally. But if you were called by God and you are to participate in His work and walk in His ways, you have to turn over your assets to God’s church. That’s the pattern.”
“It won’t leave you a pauper, it won’t break your life.”
ht: Connie
Are those people crazy in the head? I would NEVER give anything like that to a church. I would NEVER make myself homeless. I work for what I have and pay for my home. Being a former WWCG cult member for 30 years, I won't allow anyone to intimidate me and steal my money and leave me with nothing. I have never seen anywhere in the bible where it says you need to do that. HWA was a greedy evil man. And so is this man. He needs to be put in prison!!!!
ReplyDeleteThe people who are now speaking with their realtors, their bankers, and their retirement plan administrators, basically assuming the position to have their lives destroyed by Dave, wouldn't listen to us even if we could try to reason with them. It would be nice to think that we could in some way be these peoples' lifelines, but the friends and families of Jim Jones's victims, and David Koresh's victims, according to stories that came out after those tragedies, tried and failed to crack the psychospiritual barrier which their leaders had carefully and skillfully put in place through years of brainwashing.
ReplyDeleteA stress factor will often cause a guru to snap, and to accelerate irrational behavior. Financial pressures and danger of failure can be perhaps the strongest of stress factors.
My hopes would be that as many RCG members as possible will realize what is happening, and get out. What they are witnessing is one of the extremist heirs to Herbert W. Armstrong's failed fantasies attempting to take the fantasies to the next level, and in the present, applying them to himself. Unfolding circumstances have not been encouraging or convincing. Given the stress, anything could happen. Let's pray that the damage to members is minimized. and that toxic empires come to nought. There is nothing particularly special about Dave's little group that couldn't be realized through membership in one of the less toxic splinters.
Attitude is in your head, and goes with you wherever you go. The key to maximizing attitude is to put yourself only into environments where mental, physical, social, emotional, and spiritual health are sustainable. That doesn't include environments where defacto slavery is the dominant factor.
BB
Now Elijah Dave is back telling his brain-dead members that they are to sell everything they have and send it to him—AGAIN.
ReplyDeleteLet's not forget his "Clarion Call" sermons back in 2007:
"If you hold those riches, I'm telling you, you trust in them! [chastising voice]...I am charged by God, reading this verse to charge all of you out there in the Work, in the church, who have assets. You have a home that's paid off? [yelling] Go get a big chunk out of your home and put your money where your mouth is and send it here! And I'm not talking one, two, three thousand either! How about ten, twenty, thirty, fifty, a hundred thousand dollarsand—Go do it!."
—Dave Pack, Nov 3, 2007
Although, I kinda wonder if Baghdad Elijah Joshua isn't saying something to this effect about once a month.
If this is what Christianity is all about, I would prefer to convert to Buddhism.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Dave's hip pocket nerve is beginning to feel the pinch.
ReplyDeleteThat scripture is not for us today unless you want to SHARE WITH ALL not just Dave Pack. Read on past Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
ReplyDelete45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to (all men), as every man had need.
Also 4:37...Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
This was to help out EVERYONE in the New Testament early church...not just the apostles. Basically to get it going.
The PCG, and Dave Pack's so called church have already been given way too much they NEVER deserved nor needed.
Dave is a thief of the highest order. He, like many of his revivals, demands and accepts tithes that they have no authority to possess.
ReplyDeleteAnyone that needs hours to explain why he is entitled to your money, or that he is someone of great importance, is a lying creep. He deserves to be whip lashed with a cat-of-nine tails.
People get educated. Stop being wimps and stand up to this SOB.
Go to this site and read the book which will make you financially free.
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/index.html
Here is hoping that he has done so much damage to the social framework that it will break the social ties within and people will leave.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, it is the only rational thing to do, but then, RCG members aren't that rational -- that's why they are there.
Hi Mary,
ReplyDeleteI am curious ... are you related to Ben and Lois Chapman?
I ask because I recognized the last name because Ben and Lois were good friends of my parents.
Thanks for answering if you so choose.
Regards,
Jean and Walter's daughter
Dave Pack continues to follow his father (John 8:44) by telling a pack of lies. It' a pity if people don't have the heart/mind to perceive, the eyes to perceive and the ears to understand that. Acts 2 does not support Dave's pack of lies. Take one example!
ReplyDeleteActs 2:42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Okay, what wonders has Dave Pack done? What signs has Dave Pack done? What lies has Dave told us...and continues to tell us?
:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
What do all of Dave Pack's believers have in common? Passing on Dave's lies? It's ridiculous!!!!!!!!1
:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Sure believers sold possessions and goods, but did they sell their homes? No, otherwise, how would the continue to break bread and fellowship "from house to house?"
Was anything given to Peter? To Paul? To the apostles? No, the people made distribution amongst themselves ... to believers: to "every man that had NEED!"
Things were provided to those who had NEED, not to those who lusted (Reminds me of James 4:5), not to those who hoard things, not to those who had NO NEED! God isn't a waster. God isn't wasteful! And neither are His believers!
Dave is misusing scriptures for the benefit of his own SELF-righterous SELF...not for God's work! Isn't Dave ever read where God does His own work.....and God never needed Dave Pack's help/lies in any way, shape or fashion! Just what has Dave done with all of the "stuff" he has gathered from those who believe in Dave? One needs to believe in God, His Son and a beautiful Plan of Salvation...not in Self-serving!
:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Why not? They were picturing a day when all will benefit from God's love for all humaniy...and the subsequent taking/destroying of Satan and his angels.
Right now, Dave Pack is anything but meek! Will Dave Pack ever provide anything like what follows?
Psalm 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
:28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.
:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Yes, most will do down to the dust first, but we all will subsequently come back and "bow before Him" ... and no thanks to a Dave Pack any like him lying and taking advantage of others in order to benefit the SELF! By their fruits we know them...
John
Dave had a rule for all former WWCG converts, you must believe HWA was Elijah. He even had a book for you to read if you needed help understanding. A book that God "inspired" him to write. Now what Dave? The more you talk the crazier you get. This is what happens to people who panic when they realize the are to old to work and provide for themselves. They prey on weak, gullible, and naive people. My prophecy for you Dave is you will pay for all the harm you have done.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'd love to see within the more extreme splinters is for the members to adopt and practice the tenets of the Freedom Outlaw movement. It's the only way to preserve the social network, while retaining sanity and financial security. Without knowing what we were doing, many of us had our underground network, our "party within the party" so to speak, during the mid 1970s.
ReplyDeleteThat was a time of forced loyalty oaths, signed under penalty of losing your job and your church membership if you wouldn't sign. It was a time when the AC dormitories were bugged, when surveillance vans were dispatched to the site of dissident lectures. Tithes were monitored by computer. Still, it was an era when the authority figures had lost control, and they knew it. In a way, I believe the things that happened during that time in the church's history are responsible for the SS mentality in the stricter ACOGs of today.
Back then, the types of people who were remaining with the group were not people you'd really be concerned about losing as friends. They were aligned with the problem, and in many cases were the ones participating in the spying and ratting.
Conditions are both better and worse today. However, since none of the ACOGs is really special, or provable as the one true splinter, this "poaching" activity which is actually promoted and encouraged by the leaders of all the groups actually works in members' favor. All it means when you get booted from, or need to leave one group, is that in your next group, you get to see old friends that you hadn't seen in a long time. Leaders actually want an influx of people coming in from other groups, because there are only so many people these days, given the truth serum available on the internet, who are capable of being deceived by Armstrongism. Heck, some of the top ministers are on their fourth and fifth splinters!
Some of the splinters let you keep having sex as part of your marriage, as opposed to zero tolerance for accidents under the too close to the endtime ban on kids. Others want your donations, but draw certain common sense lines, letting you keep your main body of assets. Some insist you attend long distance services every single week, while others are more practical, recognizing the time-honored principle of scattered brethren. In some, you are actually allowed to retire as you experience a natural, age-related loss of energy. And, some actually still have traditional ministers, as opposed to assuming grandiose, one-upsmanship type Biblical titles.
So, the sheer number of options should, in effect, be a truth serum, or accountability measure, curtailing the extreme activities of the despotic types. Every one of the splinters has been "spewed", so it is ridiculous to have all of the finger pointing, and overusage of the "L" word. Members should realize that they have much more power these days than when the choices were the WCG or simply being out of the church. There's even "do it yourself" Armstrongism, right in the privacy of your own living room, encouraged by the ministry of Ron Dart.
The message to the members of the abusive groups is consider your options, maybe do a little further independent study, and if the way in which you are being treated in your current splinter seems somehow wrong, it probably actually is!
BB
Which armstrongist churches had "zero tolerance" and banned couples from having children in endtimes?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that any RCG members unfortunate enough to lose their home will be welcomed to lodge at Dave's superfantabulous college compound that they so dearly paid for. Who am I kidding, he'll be the one out there slamming down the bar on the iron gates.
ReplyDeleteDavey Pack has a new demographic to target:
ReplyDelete"Come join our communist regime!"
If Davey slams that "security" gate in their faces all they have to do is walk around it on the grass and up the driveway.
ReplyDelete9:34--- Flurry. PCG. Apparently Weinland also did, at one time, although I don't think Weinland disfellowshipped people for accidents.
ReplyDeleteWe did have a bit of an underground network at RCG in the late 00's. The congregations were so small that you could operate fairly independently there. The minister would not get around until every fourth-fifth week or so.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first arrived at our congregation they had just received a new minister whom I had past experiences with---he had both baptized and disfellowshipped me for missing the Feast without a good reason.
They made it very clear that ministers were not to be trusted and I actually had to earn the congregations host families trust after some time.
We violated rules such as allowing a non-baptized member to attend services and help with the meal afterwards when needed. It was kind of a social club outside the reach of Dave.
It was the only way I was able to stay there as long as I did, after having one strike with the group, but you could see the long arm of Dave's administration was slowly creeping in.
The congregation had reserved a large house in the Ozarks to stay together during the Feast. Dave, for obvious reasons, did not want this clique in his church, so he forbid it. I bolted after that and I think the rest of the congregation left after the 2013 prophecy debacle.
Living under Dave's administration is an extremely unhappy life. Actally, an unbearable life.
And it occurred to me that Dave, and Herbert for that matter, were largely ungovernable people. So how could they possibly accept any direction for eternity in the Kingdom of God-----I just could not envision that scenario.
"It won’t leave you a pauper, it won’t break your life."
ReplyDeleteThat very much depends on how old you are and how much you foolishly decide to give him. (Anything you give him is a foolish move.)
One thing is for sure, if it does, Elijah Dave isn't going to fix the issue by returning even so much as one red cent. Even though he could. But he won't. Do you think I'm wrong? Let's wait and see.
I can see this leading to cases of the elderly committing suicide. Do you think the Dave Packs or Gerald Flurries, hiding behind their corporate entities, care about you? Not a bit! They only thing they care about is separating you from your money.
This is the START of situation that ends in the elderly being used up and cruelly tossed aside. This is how those scenarios BEGIN. This is how Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry begin their process of financial abuse, of everyone really, but especially of the elderly.
The "all things in common" aspect was short lived in the NT. It ground to a halt and fell off the table when more affluent types came on the scene and would have none of it. Vote with ur feet RCGers
ReplyDeletePicked up these appropriate scriptures from Bob Thiel's blog:-
ReplyDelete"22 A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, (Proverbs 13:22)
14 Houses and riches are an inheritance from fathers, (Proverbs 19:14)
1 Woe to those who devise iniquity,
And work out evil on their beds!
At morning light they practice it,
Because it is in the power of their hand.
2 They covet fields and take them by violence,
Also houses, and seize them.
So they oppress a man and his house,
A man and his inheritance. (Micah 2:1-2)"
Imagine if an ACOG were based in a major city in a hypothetical state religion, a theocracy, today. What if, because they existed within a dominant theocratic system, as new members came in they often lost their jobs, lost their friends and social status, and were put out of the church, and persecuted? Oh, and what if they also needed the church because it controlled the temple and hosted events held in common with those of the new understanding?
ReplyDeleteEssentially, that is precisely the dilemma which faced Jewish Christians during the first century! And, that's why they banded together in a communal living arrangement, having all property in common, making up for the livelihoods and safety in numbers which they had willingly sacrificed. Per Jesus' example when he sent out disciples, God funded the spread of the gospel, often working outside of the money equation. That was separate and different from the communal living, the way in which the early Christians subsisted and survived, given the persecution of their former brethren, and the dominance of the Romans who could perceive no difference between Jews and Jewish Christians.
Now, contrast the realities of that era with the demands being made by leaders of some of the ACOGs today! There is no way the first century Christian communes living in the Jerusalem catacombs can be twisted into a Biblical example for the commands now being imposed on certain church members. Verbal sleight of hand cannot morph the two into apples to apples! If there are needs for communal wealth in the future, the survival money will have long since been squandered away by Gehazi types masquerading as Elijah! We know that they are Gehazi and not Elijah because they make emphatic prophecies and when those fail, they claim that God didn't give them full understanding. They don't raise the dead or make flour last forever, but they surely do make retired persons unretire, and are expecting sick old ladies who already gave them their wealth to manage on the pittances from government programs! What a disgraceful misapplication of Biblical examples and principles!
What ever happened to funding your ministry through tent making activities, or fishing? Of looking the other way, and not taking tithes, so that impoverished members wouldn't be faced with hardship? Of taking care of widows and orphans, rather than expecting them to take care of you? Of ministers who considered their calling their wealth rather than a standard of living several levels above those of typical members? And, who ever heard of Jesus or the disciples building an opulent campus, anyway?
BB
Anon 2:55 PM,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote: "...Do you think the Dave Packs or Gerald Flurries, hiding behind their corporate entities, care about you? Not a bit! They only thing they care about is separating you from your money..."
Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry are a couple of former WCG hirelings that left their ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena when they fled from the WCG.
Whether either Dave or Gerald recognized the "wolf" or not neither hireling cares for the people. Here is the way Jesus Christ might have verbalized that:
"The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth NOT for the sheep?" John 10:13
John