Elijah Dave Pack's home is pictured above. Will he sell it and give all the money to the church in order to set an example for his members? A REAL man/leader would do that.
Impotent self-serving men will not.
Elijah Dave Pack has been preaching incessantly about his restoring "all things in common." This is his tool to blackmail members of the Restored Church of God into selling their homes, businesses, cashing out retirement plans, turning over inheritances, etc. to Elijah Dave. He claims his god owns everything and it is the members duty to send in everything they have.
Many went out and sold their homes, took out huge mortgages and refinanced their homes in order to send Elijah Dave some money in order to look like they were loyal members.
The question on every one's mind is, Is Elijah Dave going to set the example and sell his home? Will he mortgage it and give a huge donation to the church? Since it is 100% paid for, according to public records, it would be the right thing to do.
Will Elijah Dave Pack do the right thing? Don't hold your breath!
Now now...remember HWA only owned his suits. The rest already belonged to Gawd.
ReplyDeleteThat would take character, and the man simply has none. He is a narcissistic sociopath and pathological liar. He will take the widow's home and then find a reason to kick her out before she comes asking for church assistance to live on.
ReplyDeleteThe Lord rebuke him.
Since when has Dave Pack ever done the right thing?
ReplyDeleteWhether or not Pack sells his own home to buy TV time or whatever, I am going to be praying daily for the dissolution of the RCG, and freedom for the members!
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Dave has to leverage his followers for all of their assets is proof that God is not blessing what Dave is doing, nor does He stand behind Dave's work. Carnally, I'm tempted to FEDEX the contents of my cat's litter box to Dave's home, but I'll wait to watch what ever God chooses to do to him. That'll be bad enough!
BB
What the hell is that crazy man doing anyway?
ReplyDeleteIt never ceases to amaze me how many people extend so much effort to discredit something that they believe has no basis in the Bible and has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ, grace and salvation.
ReplyDeleteThe Apostle Paul said to not be afraid to eat meat offered to idols because they are nonexistent. If Pack and the others are impostors, what are you all worried about??
The government of the U.S. takes somewhere between 15 and 30 percent of our income and thinks nothing of it (not to mention state tax, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, etc. probably more like 50%). The president wants to increase taxes on the wealthy and use it for programs for the disadvantaged. Where's your outrage for the government ripping us off big time?
Even Gamaliel had the sense to point out that Theudas had about 400 followers and came to nought. Then there was Judas of Galilee and his followers were dispersed. Gamaliel finished by saying to leave the first century apostles be. If it was of God you cannot stop it and if not, it will all come to nothing!
It seems there's a whole lot of time and effort being expended when the prevailing belief is that the ACOG are all false. Why not just let it play out and let the chips fall where they may and do something constructive with your lives?
His autobiography reveals he is the direct grandson of Herod the Great.
ReplyDeleteThis may explain many things about the man.
scary.
Note To : 6:48 PM
ReplyDeleteYour post makes some valid points, save the one about constructive use of lives/time ! How do you find it a waste of time to try helping people avoid the waste of time/resources, not to mention family strife? Caused by letting it all work out when Christ returns “ Soon” ??? Good but misguided people are following a delusional histrionic dragging innocent family along .Your platitude has no time frame. Same could be said of ISIS . Lets see how that plays out. A beheading here, a caged human on fire there, what’s the big deal . Thanks for your advise but, for the most part the posters here just can’t sit unconcerned while a child or adult is mislead by harmful lies.
Wess
anon 10:46pm regarding your post: your observation is pretty good and frankly what you pointed out is the flaw that has caused ALL of the COGs to suffer stunted growth despite their adherence to Scripture: yet the Book of Revelation implies some obedience to God is better than virtually none at all...
ReplyDeleteI'd like to address the central theme of Anonymous 6:48's entry. This is something that is brought up from time to time.
ReplyDeleteWhat you say would make sense if what we had here was our own cloistered little group, and if this were our own private little pity party. But, it is not. Although some of the ACOG ministry forbids their members their God-given freedom to browse the internet, we have positive evidence not only that their edicts are ignored, but also evidence that they, the leaders themselves, regularly read here. Some of the things we post are lifted, often word for word, and appear later in their own sermons, letters, and articles. They would never admit this, but we do hold them publically accountable for what they do, and it most definitely does affect them.
Further, not only is this is a proven method of logically expressing our concerns and displeasures directly to members of the Armstrong clergy. It is also potentially a way to anonymously communicate logic, questions, and ideas to family members, who, while they are sincere, are still deceived by and base their lives on disproven theories, such as British Israelism and the allegedly impending (now 40 years overdue) fall of the USA.
I really wasn't looking for a support group, or a bitch session when I ran across the dissident sites , as I had been happily away from Armstrongism for 25 years, had undergone therapy to help clean up the damage, and already had a nice life. However, the comaraderie is nice, and sometimes you want to just finally put something to bed once and for all, so that it won't be festering below the surface, making you wonder, and the pool of knowledge and ideas typically found on these sites has provided an abundance of coffin nails for Armstrongism and its many wacky permutations and extra-biblical brand of gnosticism. Many of us here have reinvestigated everything we were taught from scratch, and are now physically incapable of believing in or become reimmersed into Armstrongism. It is nice to be able to share our reservoir with others who are struggling and actively being hurt by the sheer toxicity of these cults.
What would it mean for a family from David Pack's group, who lurked here, and found some point of information or logic that made them break through and realize that it would be absolutely ridiculous, and even counter to God's ways and sense of social justice, to be forced to sell or mortgage their home or to cash in their long-term investments to send the money to enable Dave's pathologies?
BB
As Stanley Rader said, "It's not what you own, it's what you control." HWA owned little, but controlled much. Control is better than owning. It give you the benefits, but no responsibilities.
ReplyDeleteNow that's the best explanation I have heard...
Delete6:48,
ReplyDeleteI agree with 10:46. If a 487 is being committed by a 10-66 who is a 5150, that's 10-45b and we have an obligation to make that 10-26.
"Will He Mortgage His Own Paid Off Home and Give That Money"
ReplyDeleteExcellent logic. You have just Nailed Dave Pack.
well 10:46....virtually all who post here are misled by harmful lies as well, so do we try to stamp out this blog? or do we leave it be and let God handle it?
ReplyDeletethere are people all over the world being harmed in one way or another...do you ride to their rescue? or have you determined that their harm is not as severe as others', so you ignore them?
where do you draw the line?
hopefully you will eventually realize that the problem is too big for man, that man is too corrupt to "fix" anything anyway....
oh, and I'm not 6:48, I just happen to agree with him/her.
Gamaliel, if he lived long enough, would probably have been shocked in 70AD when Jerusalem fell.
ReplyDeleteWell 7:06, I like your logic: "If I can't help everyone, then I shouldn't help anyone." and "If it can't be PERFECT, then why bother?" Both classic Armstrongist approaches. Both toxic.
ReplyDeleteIt's nice and comforting to think that there has to be SOMEBODY "out there somewhere" who can PERFECTLY "fix" everything! I'm sure the dinosaurs must have thought "Can't we all just get along?" in their little pea-brains, too. Then something came along and made that all moot. If there wasn't a "somebody out there" to fix the dinosaur's problems, then maybe there isn't a "somebody out there" to fix ours either?
In the meanwhile, we should just recline in our Lazyboys, flip on USA Network, and do *nothing* while we wait for a figment of ancient man's imagination and his "invisible hand from nowhere" to show up and PERFECTLY "fix" everything? This is a juvenile approach. If he's not coming (which, let's face it, is the only reasonable, non-myopic conclusion) this approach is going to do exactly *nobody* any good. ∴ You are part of the problem. QED
If the human species' problems are as big as Armstrongism has always made them out to be, then probably a cataclysmic meteor strike (or an all-out nuclear war) is the only thing that could PEFECTLY "solve" all our problems anyway. Solves *everything* in one bad day. See? Nothing to worry about.
"Perfection is a stick with which to beat the possible."
―Rebecca Solnit
Gamaliel was nuts. If Islam is not of God, it eventually will just 'go away'? Is that it? When is Wicca going to cease?
ReplyDeleteOr since this is the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia we are talking about, what about those ungodly Catholics? Will they become as nothing in a short period of time. Why haven't the Lutherans disappeared? Heck, even Scientology is going strong. But let them alone and because God is not with them, they will come to nothing.
Obviously, the guy had a lot of self-deception and hubris. From the Christian point of view, since he rejected Jesus, he wasn't converted, didn't have salvation and was just talking out of his... hat. Anyway, he' dead and his own Pharisee religion disappeared so he might have been partly right. Either way, he was a loser and you shouldn't put much stock in anything he may have said.
As for Pack, he has his own Animal Farm where all the animals are equal.
Darn it though, when you look at Pack and then at the pigs, you can't tell any difference because Pack and his pigs are MORE equal than the other animals on the farm.
oh, and I'm not 10:46, I just happen to agree with him/her.
ReplyDeleteHolding all money in common is just a ruse by Pack to get people off his back who are asking why he isn't using 3rd tithe monies to support the widows and elderly.
ReplyDeletePack can shoot back: "the widow and elderly aren't being taken care of because people aren't giving their all to support the community", and go on spending the way he sees fit, knowing full well no one is going the give everything to the RCG and become destitute themselves; he just trying to shame them into shutting-up and stop asking question.
Pack has no intention of operating a commune, he's trying to engineer a stalemate where he can still hound people for money and not get in a discussion of how it should be used.
Who is the owner of the house according to public land records - Dave Pack or RCG?
ReplyDeleteRichard
Nobody is suggesting that there are absolutely no other abusive systems than Armstrongism, or that we who post here have all the answers. It's not as black and white or binary as that. There are shades of grey, and positions between on-off.
ReplyDeleteOur focus is specific to the toxicity and damage that Armstrongism inflicts on its members. It is devastating to little children to be taught that the Germans are coming, and that they won't be able to live their lives as most normal people would expect (actually, counter to what we were told, we have!) It is devastating for families to be made into tithe slaves to organizations that put on a show for their members, but actually do nothing that is perceivable to the world at large. It is damaging to forbid life-improving medical technology to members, to philosophically inhibit further education, and to form and mould personalities in such a way that members are unable to relate to colleagues and peers.
Because nothing it teaches has come to pass, and because people who have taught it all of their lives are watching the possibility that even some of its elements are true evaporate before their very eyes, Armstrongism is responding by becoming desperate, and even more insane. In this new era we have people claiming to be biblical figures, without any accompanying spiritual phenomena which would validate that, and now, actually enslaving and claiming to own members, and control the eternal spiritual destiny of their followers! It is madness, and deep sickness!
There are reasons why cults have a limited lifespan. Why are we not hearing of more and more people converting to the Moonies? Why are other once popular movements not growing? It is because public knowledge has caught up with them and people generally recognize what they are really about. As with alcohol, a drug, or even pain, people develop tolerances, and either require more and more of a fix to get the same effect, or something new and different.
There are people who wish we would deflect our interests to other evils, to "get over it" and just go away, or to feel embarrassed and self conscious because we don't have perfection or ultimate truth yet either. Eventually, we will be able to go away. But only after the job is done, and Armstrongism no longer exists to hurt people. Armstrongism is a defective product in that when it is used and practiced completely as intended by its manufacturer, it doesn't work. In fact it causes gross injury.
Richard,
ReplyDeleteAccording to the Medina County Auditor's website Pack is listed as the owner of his house.
Ronco
From the range of responses, I take it we have a wide variety of readers here. Perhaps some atheists, some agnostics, some Protestants and some Catholics.
ReplyDeleteTo the atheists: why would you care what anyone believes about anything? If they aren't harming you directly, what's it to you? Or are you just against ACOG for a feelgood out of the goodness of your heart?
To the agnostics: see above except are you against ACOG to cover yourself just in case there is a God?
To the Protestants: if we are all covered by grace, what's your worry. The ACOGers will all be grandfathered in because they believe in Jesus as the God of the Old Testament.
To the Catholics: if the Pope is the vicar of Christ and priests have been delegated the authority to forgive sins. What's to prevent all the ACOGers from being prayed out of purgatory by their Catholic family and friends?
According to the WHO there are 125,000 abortions worldwide per day. Wouldn't something like that be a better cause to wave the banner for?
Over 30,000 people die around the world each day due to starvation.
Almost 800,000 children have died this year due to illness.
About 3,500 people die every day due to automobile accidents.
There are over 36 million people infected with aids.
And on and on...
I'm just saying, there are so many bigger issues in the world to deal with that would seem more worthy causes.
From 6:48
6:48. We like this issue, doofburger. It's the one that affected us personally, whether we are atheist, agnostic, Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, or Scientologist.
ReplyDeleteWhat's your angle? What do you care what we care? Are we bugging you or something?
~Miguel de la Rodente
Well said annon at 7:15 PM.
ReplyDeleteI think 6:48s choice of who to address makes the attempted smokescreen that much more obvious.
ReplyDeleteTranslation:
ReplyDelete"Hey, atheists, agnostics, Protestants, and Catholics, if we're not hurting you anymore, why do you care who we hurt? We're not hurting others as much as abortion, poverty, illness, accidents, or AIDS, and on and on... I'm just saying, there are so many bigger issues in the world to deal with that would seem more worthy causes, so why don't you just turn a blind eye let us perform our intentionally dirty deeds in peace? From 6:48"
You genuinely do not understand why this argument doesn't work, do you.
You know that some people, not all I suppose, maybe not you, but some people experience feelings of altruism or compassion for their fellow man, strangers, people they've never met before. I know, that sounds, like, totally crazy, right? But it's true. Now, try to imagine that you experienced these sentiments. I know, it may not be easy if this is the first time you've ever tried to do this. It may even be impossible, depending. But just try to imagine, at least, that there are other people, who are not like you in this way, who experience feelings of altruism or compassion for their fellow man, all the time. I know, totally crazy. But really, it is actually true. We don't know how to turn it off. Sometimes, people like us, sometimes we wish we could, because with some extra "deadness" inside, like you, it would mean we could make more money, win those underhanded political games at work, etc. But, heck, we can't turn it off. It's always there.
Now, try to follow me on this, just for a minute. I know, "altruism" and "compassion" are probably just foreign concepts to you, just words on a page, insanity from another dimension, but just try to follow me for one minute, okay? People who experience this "compassion," well, it's one thing when bad things happen due to impersonal forces like earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, viruses, accidents, or poverty. Yes, we feel for these people, too. (I know, crazy, right? But it's true, we do.) But we feel this TWICE AS MUCH, if you can believe it, when bad things happen to people because of the centralized, focused efforts of intentional human agency. There is nothing that sets us off MORE than people who engineer the suffering of others. That's why people like us are so outraged by places like Auschwitz, and the unfeeling and systematic way that dirty deeds were engineered there. You probably walk through a place like that and feel nothing. To you, maybe it's just a park with a wall around it. Maybe a nice place for a picnic. But for us, a place like that is not just a walk in the park. For us, it sets off crazy emotions that you will probably never experience.
Continued...
Continued...
ReplyDeleteSo, even though you don't experience these emotions, try to understand that there are other people, people with emotions you don't have, who are outraged by the ACOGs. For these other people, they are like little Auschwitzes, in which dirty deeds are engineered by intentional human agents in a cold, unfeeling, and systematic way. Yes, abortion is bad too, and yet, abortion is not the product of a centralized, engineered effort. Nor are the mothers who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy necessarily doing it in a cold, or unfeeling way. So even that does not set off our emotions quite as badly. Nor does there seem to be a way to prevent unwanted pregnancy, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, viruses, accidents, or poverty. But stopping human predators, that's what the ACOGs are, as well as, say, slaveholders or serial killers, from making other people their prey seems like an imminently achievable task. It's been done before.
So, maybe, if you've managed to read this, you now have some inkling, why there are other people out there who find what you do, or at least approve of, to be hateful. It's because there are other people out there who do not experience the world in the same way you do. There are other people out there who do not view other humans as cattle, to be milked and butchered. I know, crazy, right? But it's true. We really do exist. And we HATE what you're up to, as much as we hate anything. People who experience the world like you do used to be able to do what you do openly. But now civilized society has limited your options. Hiding behind the ruse of a "church" is your last refuge. But we will eventually destroy that refuge too. Then you will be forced to stop your intentionally dirty deeds, or else be punished at law.
We care who you hurt, 6:48. You may never fully comprehend why, but there are reasons why we do. We will never turn a blind eye to your dirty deeds, regardless of who they're directed against.
To the "why don't you get over it and move on" commentators:
ReplyDeleteThe name of this blog indicates that it includes "Books, News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Churches of God."
It is not "Random Comments from Self-Satisfied Observers Who Feel They Know What's Best for Others in Any Situation."
Hence, the posts and comments calling out the purveyors of Armstrongism.
6:48's wish lists of causes for us to move on to is the very same list generated by the ACOGs of the people who are allegedly being punished by God for not subscibing to Old Covenant Christianity. Surely, we all remember having heard sermons about how these are Satan's "do gooder" causes that assuage peoples' consciences, but don't address what the ACOGs define as being the problem.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it. The ACOGs are Satan's churches. The dehumanization of people into uncaring beings who so easily turn their backs on any fellow person who is not part of their specific group is exactly the type of work that Satan does. By demanding all of members' resources, and convincing people that it is not you that is doing this, but God Himself, these ACOG leaders ultimately cause people to resent and hate God. That, too, is Satan's work! Ditto, constantly holding an end that never happens, a place of safety nobody ever goes to, and even the Kingdom itself over peoples' heads as if you, and not the members of the deity were the gatekeepers for such events, is actually the work of Satan.
Some of us are involved in some of the causes listed by 6:48. There is no reason why that should keep us from also doing God's work of warning people against Armstrongism, as well.
BB
Keeping the light of critical analysis on cults that destroy many lives is not very important?
ReplyDeleteTrying to provide info to people that are controlled and abused by cultic leaders is not important?
Should we just do nothing?
How many hundreds or thousands of people freed from these groups would still be enslaved by them if this blog and others did not exist?
Thank you Ronco for doing the look up of the public land records on the title ownership of Pack's home. Then this indeed is scandalous on a couple of levels which is why I asked the question.
ReplyDeleteFirst, the obvious is that he is not following the example of God's end time Apostle Herbert Armstrong who owned nothing other than his suits, but controlled all WCG owned assets including his personal residence. To my knowledge, HWA's death did not probate a will because the WCG owned everything including his home.
Second, it is also obvious that Dave Pack is a hypocrite asking his members to mortgage homes and sell assets to fund "the work" of his RCG fear religion business. Dave does not lead by example and is unwilling to do what he threatens his membership with eternal damnation to do.
Third, and perhaps most telling regarding Pack's motives, is that his home titled in his own name would be insulated from any RCG bankruptcy proceedings should it occur. Unlike HWA, Pack has separated his home from the Church.
Richard
"Third, and perhaps most telling regarding Pack's motives, is that his home titled in his own name would be insulated from any RCG bankruptcy proceedings should it occur. Unlike HWA, Pack has separated his home from the Church. "
ReplyDeleteYes, Richard- I'm also convinced that Packman has a nice fat portfolio with no ties to RCG in case the whole thing tanks, he can just whisk away from the whole mess in a flaming chariot
just like Elijah.
Ronco