One of the biggest weapons the Church of God has used as a tool of fear was to claim that someone was NOT a true Christian, NOT a Philadelphian. It is a weapon still used by various splinter cult leaders of the Churches of God to keep people in line. Dave Pack claims that any one who is a member of ANY of the COG's is CANNOT be a true Philadelphian. True Philadlphians are members of the Restored Church of God.
I promise you no one in the splinters—none—zero—are Philadelphian in condition, else they would not be in any of those groups. You can’t be a Philadelphian and be in groups that don’t even believe God has one Church. You’ve rejected His government. Obviously, they haven’t anointed their eyes, or they would have gotten out. They didn’t open the door and let Christ in. They haven’t bought gold, as they were told to do. They have not done God’s Work or come under His government. They paid His tithes to His enemies. There’s no possible way…And I’m going to get into this a little bit later, probably next week. I want to illustrate some other things. Maybe it’ll be the week after…There’s no possible way they’re Philadelphia now. So, to get back to that condition is a problem for the living……
And if you are in the Restored Church you are not a Christian, none, zero.
ReplyDeleteNow, Dave, I am certain that there are people in the ACOGs who live in Philly. As far as church "eras" go, that's just another one of the extrabiblical teachings, part of the HWAcaca. It gives people provocation to raise their noses in the air and look down on others who believe the same offbeat things.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the difference between RCG and the others? One thing. RCG has Dave Pack. So, in Dave's opinion, what he brings into the equation is the missing ingredient which makes Armstrongites "Philadelphians". That's pretty arrogant, baseless, and dumb. It also gets people fleeced for the privilege of Dave recognizing them as Philadelphians.
BB
Dave Pack is "WRETCHED, and MISERABLE, and POOR, and BLIND, and NAKED". I would say that his "GOD'S GOVERNMENT" heresy has allot to do with this. I don't expect him to acknowledge that, but maybe some of his adherents will.
ReplyDeleteAs I said in other of my comments, Dave's group is NOT a church of brotherly love. And a military chain of command is NOT of God !
The last time I was in Philadelphia the mini-van made the obligatory stop at a Turkish tapestry shop. Nice tapestries for a good price.
ReplyDeletenck
"You can’t be a Philadelphian and be in groups that don’t even believe God has one Church."
ReplyDelete[hypothetically] If He did, she would be well-hidden and a virgin, untouched AND led by any man/woman. How Philadelphian is the fact of HWA commiting incest with his own daughter during the first 10 yrs of the radio church of god? In my humble opinion, the disciples didn't run the church, they just spreaded a message. They didn't own the message, but they shared it. You can't pimp the true church of God, Dave! So, go ahead and pimp HWA's whore, she seems to be used to that by now. She murmurs, "But this is the only way! He is,..err I mean he speaks for Gauwd!"
"There’s no possible way they’re Philadelphia now. So, to get back to that condition is a problem for the living..."
And that reminds me of yet another story, DCP as the Governer. The Governor's disturbing motives are reflected in his authoritarian ways in dealing with threats to his community, primarily by executing most large groups and only accepting lone survivors into his community. Taking over other prisons to make just one large prison for him to run, is that salvation? Prisons are not safe!
LOL
DBP
Sure, only seat warmers at Daves church are the one and only true Philadelphian church. Warm a seat at Daves church (plus all your money), and you qualify for the kingdom by riding on Daves coattails.
ReplyDeleteActually, his members are riding his coattails to the lake of fire.
ReplyDeleteDavid C. Pack is a raging false prophet who acts like he was sent and directed by Satan to destroy former Worldwide Church of God members by initially pretending to be one of them but then later forcing them away from what Herbert W. Armstrong had taught. David Pack's Restored Church of Fraud is actually a satanic imposter cult that demonstrates the insane wrath of Satan against former Worldwide Church of God members who tried to hold on to what Herbert W. Armstrong had taught them.
No John of Revelation ever intended the 7 comments to the 7 churches to be formulated into a 2000 year long farce of 7 Church Eras. It was a nice way to apologize to the readers for the failure "of things which must shortly come to pass" and "Behold I come quickly embarrassment however.
ReplyDeleteDave and Ilk have raised the concept of making something mean what it doesn't and never could mean to an art form. It will end badly but not shortly. Well shortly is relative I suppose....
However...Romans 4:17 does well describe the term "Philadelphian" well as applied to the reality of how it all really is amongst them...
ReplyDelete"....even God, who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things which are not, as though they were."
Claiming "brotherly love" does not a loving brother make as we know
Well Mr. Pack is just as confused as I used to be when I attended there. What all seem to miss is that he is right about the fact that there are no Philadelphian churches anymore, (including RCG). Saying that RCG is Philadelphian is FALSE! Also, just because we are now Laodicean, does not mean we are not true Christians anymore. However, the flock IS scattered due to false teachers and the Philadelphian door is shut, but many true Christians are now deceived, not being taught what Laodiceans should be doing right now , eg. anoint your eyes and open the door for Christ Rev 3:14 - 22. Laodiceans are not condemned, but face different challenges. Those who make merchandise of true Christians do not teach, nor understand this.
ReplyDeleteAre any of the splinter groups experiencing new growth (as opposed to children of members or members from other splinters)?
ReplyDeletePhiladelphia SUCKS! I would much rather be in Lancaster County personally!
ReplyDeleteWhat nerve! Where is the evidence that proves that David Pack is the one being used by the Most High? Why should the flock listen to him? Why should they turn over their money to him? Where are the public healings that would at least be a hint that one should take another look at him?
ReplyDeleteDavid, you haven't proven anything to anyone who still has an oz of a brain, that you are the one. Where is the evidence? Does not the Bible tell us to prove all things? Why do you get upset when people follow that advice and determine that you are not the one that we should accept?
David, the only thing that you have proved beyond all doubt, is that you deserve the award of being the biggest flinger of bull shit on the internet. Your rambling disjointed sermons of fantasy deserve to be made into Disney movies along the lines of falling into a bottomless hole, forever in darkness walking as a drunken fool seeking a way out.
For anyone to join themselves to your club is like falling into a pit filled with vipers.
Heck, that's no revelation -- there are no church 'eras' and none of the Armstrongist sects can even remotely be considered places of 'brotherly love'. In fact, if you look at the top 1% it's evident that there's quite a lot of anger and even more hatred.
ReplyDeleteAnd David Pack certainly sets the bar as far as being an angry hate filled cult leader.
Hey, you other ACoG cult leaders: You may have quite a long way to go to match David Pack for angry hatred (note that Roderick Meredith, Gerald Flurry, Ronald Wineland are exempt from this challenge and have managed to set the standard for angry hatred in their own venues).
But even that is somewhat misleading. I watched a documentary on exposing Scientology for awhile yesterday during the lunch hour. Now there's quite the venue for hateful abuse, with the current leader actually physically assaulting his members, throwing them into a compound for hard labor to rehabilitate them and pulling out the stops to persecute anyone who would have the audacity to speak against them. It was mighty horrifying. Not unlike the FLDS.
Except...
well, the truth is that the reason that it isn't worse in the ACoG cult compounds is that the 1% hasn't attained the financial base and power of other rigid abusive cults. If they had the money and the power (along with hordes of highly paid aggressive lawyers), they would be exactly the same. People like David Pack prove it -- he's leveraged what he has for some pretty impressive abuse, but lacking the little bit extra, he falls short of achieving the worst that he could be if only he had more money and a bigger following.
Not to worry though. In its own way, Armstrongism has been holding its own with child abuse, emotional extortion, boozing, neglecting the poor and underprivileged, adultery and the occasional murder or two.
In the end, we can think of Armstrongism as a sort of form of Sabbath Keeping Scientology (the founders both died in Pasadena within a week of each other and not that many miles away).
It just goes to show you how much harm you can spread if you just put your mind to it.
Dualities are common in the bible. so church eras doesn't sound unreasonable, if viewed as a broad template. Yes, brotherly lived never existed in these times, which is why I said template. Perhaps even God expected something better in these end times.
ReplyDeleteKathleen, the splinters aren't growing in number (but rather diminishing) because time has run out, so God is basically not calling any more people. It does take time to mature as a Christian. Where else on this planet does one find churches like eg., Rods Living church, where the average age is 74 years. These slivers are no ordinary churches, contrary to what many dissidents claim.
Of course God is calling plenty of sincere Christians today. They just aren't Armstongites. Instead of the Jerusalem Jewish Christians in the first century, they are like Paul's Gentile Christians in Antioch and Thessalonica. Isn't it significant that the 7 churches in Revelation were all in gentile cities?
DeleteBB
The church era thingy is totally whack.
ReplyDeleteFor those embroiled in such logic, I say, "It's time to enter reality, folks!"
Human psychology is timeless, not matter what time in history or which society. So the concept of eras or replication of past eras, is not unreasonable. Secular society had its eras with the Dark Ages, Renaissance, followed by the enlightenment. Perhaps the church eras shadowed these secular eras.
ReplyDelete11.37 AM how about some facts and reasoning rather than just abuse.
BB, the bible mentions categories on many occasions. For instance the categories in the parable of the sower, and the categories in the parable of the talents, the wise and foolish virgins. The seven churches in Revelation are another set of categories. Perhaps the Jewish churches weren't a unique distinct category.
ReplyDeleteGod calls for all mankind to repent and have a relationship with Him, but that is not the same as offering everyone the holy spirit. That will only happen on Christs second coming.
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ReplyDeleteThe categories in the case of the seven churches of Revelation are attitudes. We had all seven attitudes present in the old WCG, and no single one was ever dominant. Sometimes the proportions varied from church area to church area, just like the attitudes did with the seven cities. An impartial outsider would never have concluded that the WCG was Philadelphian. That was HWA advertising hype to make the dumb sheep feel special.
ReplyDeleteHa! Pack says they didn't bring gold. Pack is showing the beginning of a spoilt pastors strop. I'm sure many know the score. Pack will only get worse, it's all THEIR fault, their not this or that. The thousands he was grandly expecting to show up with their savings, remortgages, credit and gold never arrived. No show, nope not one on the horizon. So hold onto your wigs because he's only going to get far worse.
ReplyDelete10.21PM
ReplyDeleteI did public speaking in the churches spokesmen club for many years (1970s and 1980s), and I did not discern levels of conversion in the speeches. Just about all the speeches were devoid of mention of morality, and it sounded like a secular rather than a religious club. When I joined, I expected to hear speech after speech magnifying Gods laws, but I never heard one such speech. I believe this flatness is the Sardis era. It wasn't even lukewarm.
ReplyDeleteBB noted: ".... they are like Paul's Gentile Christians in Antioch and Thessalonica. Isn't it significant that the 7 churches in Revelation were all in gentile cities? "
Yes it is and Paul claimed to be an Apostle to the Ephesians , though John actually seems to have been according to Church tradition.
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus," Ephesians 1:1 NKJV
Could it have been Paul put on trial by the Ephesian Church for not representing their beliefs? Seems so as Paul got totally shunned by all the "gentile" churches in Asia including Ephesus. Paul was well known as a "liar" to many early Christians. One can easily see that what he agreed to do and teach in Acts 15 was not what he actually did do and teach when back with the Corinthians. Word gets around.... and finally Paul had to admit...
It is quite possible that the rift between Peter and Paul in Galatians was not about eating with gentiles or not but Peter finding Paul was not abiding by his agreement on meats offered to idols in Acts 15. Paul blew up. Of course we have Paul's story but not Peter's.
2 Timothy 1:15 "ALL those in Asia have turned away from me." (All is a lot)
Revelation Jesus praised the Ephesian Church in Revelation 2:2 for rejecting false Apostles (Paul?) and said...
"I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;"
Paul is the inventor of Gentile Christianity and most of what we see today. It seems the James and the Book of James is a remnant of the early Jewish Church taking issue with Paul's ideas in Romans.
In short we find....
1..Paul: "I am an Apostle in Ephesus and to the Gentiles"
2..Ephesian Church: "No you are not!"
3..Revelation Jesus: "Well done!"
Taking it step further. Could Paul be the False Prophet of Revelation along with Vespasian who was considered the Beast of Revelation (Revelation being written notin the 90's but just prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 70) both of whom were said to have a future in the Lake of Fire? Could be....
ReplyDeletePS (sorry)
ReplyDeleteRevelation was first of all Jewish persecution literature and originally written to Jewish Christians to encourage them during the dark days of the Jewish wars with Rome. It is ultimately a failed prophecy never intended to be read or applied as it is today. All the baloney Dave Pack and others see in Revelation today that points to them their churches is simply that...baloney
"The Book of Revelation, like Isaiah and the other Jewish apocalypses, was written as resistance literature to explain a crisis. On its face, Revelation appears to be Christian literature written in response to the persecution of Christians by the Roman emperor Domitian in 95 AD. A detailed analysis of Revelation however, reveals it was actually Jewish persecution literature written in response to three events: the widespread ethnic cleansing of Jews that occurred throughout the Mid-East during the Jewish-Greek Civil War of 66 AD, the destruction of Jerusalem and the loss of hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives during the Roman-Jewish War of 66-70 AD, and finally by the rise of Christianity due to the religious vacuum brought about by the fall of the Jewish Temple-State." http://revelation2368.com/why-written.htm
Well, and then we must contend with Acts 20:29-31, in which Paul warns the Ephesians of future false teachers, II Cor.11:13, where he warns the Corinthians, Gal. 1:6-7 and 3:1 where he warns the Galatians, Phil. 4:14-15, ditto to the Philippians, and Rev. 2:14-15 where it is the Pergamos church who were identified as being indifferent to false teachers.
ReplyDeleteAnd, I didn't check the pseudepigraphic list before citing those references, so be forewarned in case some come from epistles whose authorship is currently being contested or is unknown. It appears that Paul constantly gave detailed warnings to his churches against false teachers, and provided rebuttals to what the false teachers were teaching. It is probable that some of them actually rejected him in favor of those false teachers. False teachers were apparently a common peril during the early Christian era. They fell into different categories, too. Paul fought the Judaizers, the Gnostics, the Nicolaitanes, and others throughout his ministry.
I do agree that Paul's work resulted in modern Christianity as we know it today. Obviously those who believed that gentiles must become observant Jews at the same time that they became Christian would have continued to take umbrage with what Paul taught to his gentile churches, but the fact is that circumcision and all that it entailed according to Jewish law were abolished for the gentiles by James and the Jerusalem Council. That set the stage for what came later as the power center shifted from Jerusalem to Antioch to Rome.
We are so far removed from that point in history that speculatuon has become a large part of our effort to understand what actually occurred 2,000 years ago, but there is much to be gained from the writings of the antenicenes, even though there were many points on which they disagreed as they formed the links of the chain of succession, personally teaching the next generation leaders from Jesus, through the apostles, and ultimately to the transition of Christianity from a Jewish phenomenon to a more universal philosophy.
BB
It's an excellent picture - having a horse in the OP.
ReplyDeleteWhy?
Because HWA's teaching about the "Philadelphian Era" was nothing but horse shit, just as so many of his other teachings were.
Last time I observed Sukkot in the Arizona desert, I anchored my temporary dwelling with something a PCG member was selling on eBay, called, "Philadelphia Cheese Stakes"
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, while I was in my temporary dwelling making love to my concubine, a prairie dog nibbled at them stakes and the temporary dwelling blew away, and now my naked ass is on youtube where a heathen put it in all it's glory showing my nekked rump with the Dave Pack and HWA tattoos on my rump-cheeks.
Sometimes, before I fart, I clench my cheeks and it looks like Dave and Herbie are kissing!
Dennis says 'could Paul be the False Prophet of Revelation?' It seems Dave now has competition. This isn't just wackiness. This is a local mini-me Antiochus Epiphane.
ReplyDeleteFrom a few verses in Revelation we get so much implied meaning and buzzwords like "a true Philadelphian", the "Philadelphia standard", the "Philadelphia mantle"...
ReplyDeleteNot being Philadelphian still rings better than being called Laodicean.
"Dennis says 'could Paul be the False Prophet of Revelation?' "
ReplyDeleteYes, I said "could?" The concept of Paul being the one who called himself an apostle but was not and was rejected by the Ephesians and praised by "Jesus", etc is a very common presentation by Jewish, and Jewish Christian writers on the background of Revelation .
From "The Religion of the Orient" by Martin Larson.
" The beast could have been no one but Vespasian for he was the Roman emperor from 69-79. And we would suggest that Paul was the false prophet "that wrought miracles...with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast," that is, had become Christians without first coming Jews. The Jewish Christians hated Paul with a ferocity exceeding even that which they felt for the Romans."
...Revelation was the swan son of the Militant Jewish Christianity. When Jerusalem was destroyed, when Rome waxed greater and more powerful, when the False Prophet (Paul) gained more and more followers, when the book itself was proved totally false within two years, when it became evident that the Jewish Messiah-Christ had not come, the Hebrew Christians lost their virility and their cult faded under the combined assault of orthodox Judaism and of Gentile Christianity."
pp 478-479
You might also find this interesting as the Jewish perspective on Paul and his possible role in the Book of Revelation as the false prophet. Another problem in the 7 churches was of one teaching it was fine to eat meat sacrificed to idols.
ReplyDelete"Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols."
We don't know who this may have been, but Paul did teach it was fine to eat meat offered to idols three times in scripture after supposedly promising James in Acts 15 not to allow it under the Noahide Laws for Gentiles becoming Christians which had always been used for Gentiles becoming Jews.
http://false-apostle-paul-archive.blogspot.com/2009_12_01_archive.html
One reason Herbie called his church Philadelphian, was to pressure members to act Philadelphian. In all fairness, many people (not all, some behaved worse inside the church than outside the church) did put out effort to act this way toward members. Yes, being the weak of the world, the church still would not have impressed outsiders.
ReplyDeleteReality is, the extreme Phariseeism caused even the best to be Laodelphians or Philadiceans. So much for pure, monolithic eras. Those never existed.
ReplyDeleteBB
Don't forget Fry-a-tyrants and Pergamoniums!
ReplyDelete