We later came to realize that the Grace and Knowledge was that according to others view of it all and not allowed to be something of our own realizations and homework. You grow as you are told to grow and the knowledge you grow in must be approved from above.
Mostly now the various COG Grand Masters simple are caught up in "Crowing and Over-gumming", if you get my drift. David C. Pack is master of the crowing and over-gumming concept.
I'd like to think that most of us here at BannedHWA are here because we care and are concerned about the spiritual, emotional and even physical well being of those still trapped by their own fear, guilt and shame abundantly stoked by their theological leaders, falsely so called.
The bottom line seems to be that we'd like those beginning to react to the feeling in their stomachs to realize that is what is really true as to what the reasonings in one's heads might be as they are pummeled every week in church with the latest shoulds, must nots and you better realize this, messages.
Here are a few things I believe we'd all like those questioning their involvement and place in any COG congregation, watching their own particular three ring circus unfold to realize or make real in their thinking.
Your minister is not really a type of any Moses, Joshua, Zerubbabel or spoken of in the scriptures Old or New. That's simply crazy and delusional thinking with religious content.
Your minister is not one, both or supervisor of the Two Witnesses of Revelation who will work a marvelous work in your day that you won't believe.
In time, you won't believe you fell for that.
There can't be 300+++ Splintered One True Church
In time, you won't believe you fell for that.
There can't be 300+++ Splintered One True Church
Your minister's approach to Bible Study of "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little," is called proof texting and by it all manner of mischief can be conceived of and shows he can't even accept the fact that Isaiah 28:9-10 , in context, promotes no such cut and paste method of drawing proper conclusions
Narcissistic men, in positions of leadership, can well hide in a church environment because their illness looks like a weird form of obedience, dedication and sincerity.
Organizations are full of lessor yes men and women who don't and won't protect you from what they suspect is so themselves, if they have a position and enjoy wielding fake authority.
All of these men will grow old and die with nothing of what they predict or fashion themselves to be ever remotely comes to pass
Properties purchased and colleges built with your tithes and offerings plainly show your leader doesn't believe his own press about "time is short".
These same properties, in time, will be sold to others to use for the exact opposite purpose you thought you supported them for in the first place.
If you can step back a bit and admit your doubts you'll end up wondering "what was I thinking?"
Dreams do not a theologian make
"And yes brethren, I am an Apostle" also does not an Apostle make
"God knows that 'that man'...." always means "ME" when the minister is letting you in on his ill drawn conclusions about himself easily
"But I'll save that for next week" always means "Please don't leave the church"
Too many words and phrases in a sermon like, "overarching", "Awesome", "Never before understood", "I never realized this until writing this sermon", "Will leave you gyrating in your seats", "Will stun you' and "I don't think I have ever given a sermon quite like this one" and so on simply means, "I'll keep you praying, obeying, paying and staying anyway I can".
...and so on. You know it when you hear it.
Narcissistic men, in positions of leadership, can well hide in a church environment because their illness looks like a weird form of obedience, dedication and sincerity.
Organizations are full of lessor yes men and women who don't and won't protect you from what they suspect is so themselves, if they have a position and enjoy wielding fake authority.
All of these men will grow old and die with nothing of what they predict or fashion themselves to be ever remotely comes to pass
Properties purchased and colleges built with your tithes and offerings plainly show your leader doesn't believe his own press about "time is short".
These same properties, in time, will be sold to others to use for the exact opposite purpose you thought you supported them for in the first place.
If you can step back a bit and admit your doubts you'll end up wondering "what was I thinking?"
Dreams do not a theologian make
"And yes brethren, I am an Apostle" also does not an Apostle make
"God knows that 'that man'...." always means "ME" when the minister is letting you in on his ill drawn conclusions about himself easily
"But I'll save that for next week" always means "Please don't leave the church"
Too many words and phrases in a sermon like, "overarching", "Awesome", "Never before understood", "I never realized this until writing this sermon", "Will leave you gyrating in your seats", "Will stun you' and "I don't think I have ever given a sermon quite like this one" and so on simply means, "I'll keep you praying, obeying, paying and staying anyway I can".
...and so on. You know it when you hear it.
We are a mixed group here having come out of the homogenized environment of the Worldwide Church of God. Good for us. We're not evil. We're not scoffers (Noticing is not scoffing. Scoffing is what those not wishing to be called out on their abuses call noticing.) We are ok to ask, "Where is the promise of his coming" because , well...it's been 2000 years and that's not our common view of "things which must shortly come to pass', and "behold I come quickly."
No one is going to any ever burning or burn you up Lake of Fire for not belonging to this or that True Church of God and it's ok to each have our own unique experience and outcomes with the Worldwide Church of God, the Armstrongs, Tkaches and all those that followed. We all process our shortcomings, experiences, perceptions and lessons learned differently.
If everyone who participates here on Banned got together for a pot luck, with the singles bringing the watermelon of course, it would be one amazing night out!
Dennis, your deep concern for those still trapped in WWCG dogma is on full display. I applaud you for caring and trying to help.
ReplyDeleteTrue honesty requires us to often question our beliefs, especially those held most strongly. Those remaining in some splinter of the WWCG have not been able or willing to be honest with themselves and are ignoring the "elephant in the room".
I know it isn't easy. The longer we have been in, the harder it is to get out. When you jump, be sure a life raft is in place. There is a way of escape, but think it through. The "members" will not help you. They will throw you a cement block.
Well put and well thought out.I would love to see this post on the front page of the "Journal ".
ReplyDeleteAt least I can dream.
are here because we care
ReplyDeleteAmen.
And although the care may be expressed in harsh or humorous terms, the concern is still there. I think Byker Bob pegged the bloggers of Banned correctly as "troubleshooters".
Labeling a COG-critical site as "anti-COG" is a cheap and unfair generalization. To use the troubleshooter analogy, you take your car to the garage for annual inspection, and the mechanic points out faults that must be fixed. Instead of fixing the faults, you label the garage as being anti-car...
Great post, Dennis. I especially liked your points about the dangers of equating biblical characters with modern folks and proof-texting. I posted something on my own blog that I think demonstrates that danger:
ReplyDeletehttp://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2017/02/thanksgiving-is-pagan-holiday-and.html
1/ The wannabes are YES men! And that's why better--more knowledgeable--more diligent--more ethical--more sincere--men than them were suppressed, marginalized--for years--and then CAST OUT.
ReplyDelete2/ They string people along with promises of "the end is soon" and other rubbish.
Example: Mr Totally Inspired Gerald The Liar Flurry stings people along for YEARS before he answers their personal questions--if ever. He knows they--or someone else--might be offended if the answer is not as hoped, so he does not answer. He strings people along for years. The prophet is too busy to answer. God could inspire him in 0.2 seconds, but he's not really inspired, so just keep waiting, and waiting, and waiting ... till kingdom come, or they wise up and leave, whatever comes first.
And we should all feel free to insist that Armstrongist leaders be held accountable and expose them when they are not.
ReplyDeleteArmstrongism is a cult. It deserves no respect.
Agreed.
DeleteHWA took advantage of as many as he could, in his quest to make money. He was a crafty business man, looking to make his money and mark in life. It's horrible the number of offshoots there are all because of HWA's scheme.
I recall the tones of voice and body language of ministers when they tried to lord it over me. They knew that the bible didn't authorise their fake authority, and in fact condemned it. They would have been screaming chapter and verse if it was in the bible.
ReplyDeleteI am an Apostle
ReplyDeleteDid Dave give himself an official ordination certificate? If so, who signed it?
Bob Thiel recently published a list of CCOG ordinations, which included his first evangelist. Since there was no one in the CCOG higher than Bob, his own ordination certificate as Overseer was signed by two of his ordained members. Does that fit in correctly with the one-man, top-down government structure?
"Did Dave give himself an official ordination certificate? If so, who signed it?"
ReplyDeleteIt was signed by the jealous vengeful god of the OT, Beelzebub . Jesus was out of town and refused to sign.
Unfortunately, Pack,Thiel and Flurry along with assorted others can claim to be apostles the same way the Apostle Paul became one. Paul hallucinates his calling and the information he is to present to the world and Bob Thiel dreams it up. No diff.
ReplyDeleteGalatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, (I MADE MYSELF AN APOSTLE)
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (I HALLUCINATED IT)
Herbert Armstrong loved these verses in Galatians and always made it sound like this also the way he learned his theology.
15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb (ONLY JESUS AND JEREMIAH BEFORE HIM CLAIMED THIS) and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. (THIS CONTRADICTS ACTS 15) 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem(PETER, JAMES and JOHN) —whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. (IN OTHER WORDS, NO ONE TELLS ME ANYTHING)
Paul's claims of light contact with the Church leaders in Jerusalem contradict the account in Acts and Paul tells a different story of his calling than the Damascus Road version told by Luke of Paul.
Herbert Armstrong always appealed to these scriptures to announce just why his message was special, as do they all and it's impossible to disprove such nonsense. It is also impossible to prove . That's why you hear "Where is your faith brethren!!!" which as defined by Hebrews 11:1 is the substance of that which you hope is true based on absolutely no verifiable evidence."
Yes, well, I did hear Herbert Armstrong say in a broadcast that his pronouncements were just as good as the Apostle Paul (hinting that his opinions were better than Paul's).
ReplyDeleteSuch hubris: Declare yourself an apostle and you can do any damned thing you think of.
Isn't that pretty much the definition of a psychopath?
his opinions were better than Paul's
ReplyDeleteDave Pack claimed HWA's predictions were better than Paul's because Paul made his about 1900 years earlier.
9.07 PM
ReplyDeleteI've noticed the pattern of evil people becoming more self exalting in their old age. Presumably they are compensating for physically fading away.
Anyone can claim authority. It carries weight only if you give it credence. It's a matter of salesmanship and gullibility.
ReplyDeleteAllen c. Dexter
Dennis @ 12:11pm..You say it's okay for us to ask where is the promise of his coming. 2 peter 3 tells us there would be some who will be saying that and sure enough there is. It tells us that a thousand years are as a day with God, so 2000 years to God really is like 2 days, so to him the promise of his coming isn't so long at all. It also tells us there that God is not willing that any should perish, he wants all to repent and have the opportunity of everlasting life, maybe in your mind it's been a long time but to him it's not, who knows, maybe you are holding things up and the reason why it's taking him this long. He can take as long as he wants if its for the purpose of giving people a chance to repent and realize he is real and does exist and turn to him.
ReplyDeleteHi Dennis, Although I don't agree with your atheistic viewpoints and negative comments about God and the Holy Bible, I applaud you for pointing out the hypocrisy and abuses of Armstrongism and all of the COG's that continue to adhere to Herbert W Armstrong.
ReplyDelete