Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
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Wednesday, August 23, 2017
Dave Pack: God would have to send a final, analytical servant. That’s yours truly, the son of Jane Crowl Pack.
Now look at Revelation 22 and verse 6. At the end of the book, and this is what you’re stuck with…Brethren of God, around the world, I fear God. We are before His Word, and Isaiah 66: 2 says we had better tremble. God looks to people that are poor and of a contrite spirit, and tremble at His Word. I tremble to add or subtract from a book that says I get it…I get the plagues or I lose eternal life, if I add to it, particularly, I guess you’d add, if you needed to, and He said these sayings are faithful and true. But there has to be a way they’re true.
God would have to send a final, analytical servant. That’s yours truly, the son of Jane Crowl Pack. If you were my mother’s son, you are not allowed to dis-analyze or ignore analyzing anything! My mother picked my logic to pieces from the time I could say “Mommy, please, I want to go play ball.” You see…I’m telling you. And so, I sit and analyze and analyze and analyze and it just doesn’t fit. The book just didn’t fit. I’m the same analyst I was years ago. I mean, there are qualities that all of you have that I don’t have. I envy some of you. Mr. Armstrong had qualities I don’t have.
But I am an analyst in the extreme, like no one I ever knew in this regard. I mean, I beat the Greek up and beat the Hebrew up, and timelines…and work and work and work and work at all the unexplained questions, whether we knew them or didn’t. And there has to be a way that things that were going to happen shortly…are shortly. And that’s impossible to say it’s true—and I don’t fear to say that. I do not fear to say that it’s impossible to say that things that were written 2,000 years ago are at hand.
"I tremble to add or subtract from a book that says I get it…I get the plagues or I lose eternal life, if I add to it, particularly"
Then tremble on Dave 'cause you have a habit of adding and subtracting from the Book big time. Actually you don't get it. And you are mostly anal-itical in your skills so don't get too carried away with yourself.
We do notice you catching yourself getting all absorbed with your skills when you say " I mean, there are qualities that all of you have that I don’t have. I envy some of you. Mr. Armstrong had qualities I don’t have." endeavoring to make it seem to the brethren you aren't bragging. If you think you are an anal-ist in the extreme like none you ever knew...well...you need to get out more.
If Dave actually is a superb analyst, then the axiom that "any strength taken to extreme becomes a weakness" must be kicking in.
Dave's own HWA confirmation bias is allowed to play into his penchant for over-analyzing. In his statements above, he confirms both! "I am an analyst in the extreme!" Really??? HWA's belief in Ussher's chronology, coupled with the extrabiblical theory of a 7,000 year plan are the only basis for the belief that this is the precise time of the end. That is what originally led them to the dates between 1972-75. Deeper fantasies in Greek and Hebrew neither deepen the basic HWA framework, nor confirm it. The Armstrongist doomsdayers have also always been able to point to anecdotal evidence on the world news scene, such as the latest existential threat (which mankind had generally been very good at mitigating or enduring). In fact, they regularly present bytes removed from context as if they were parts of a solid evidentiary trail.
The primary rationale, or reason for tithing specifically to Armstrongism has always been the funding of the great commission. Since the era of the spewing or splintering, only miniaturized cookie-cutter versions of the once great "World Tomorrow" program are going out, all but invisible, and hosted not by polished professionals who command attention, but at best by Spokesmen's Club or Ambassador Club quality speakers. And Bob Thiel and certain others don't even rise to that low level! If one were applying the skill set of a financial analyst in order to identify the specific work which produces the greatest results, in order to determine where to invest tithes, no ACOG is anywhere near the viability of man-made works, let alone the work of God!
It does not really matter what David Pack puts out as a result of his analyses. Only results count, and these have been statistically negligible for years, and aren't exactly trending upwards. Dave and the others have not been inspired with a unique or poignant message that commands the level of income or attention enjoyed by the most average presenters on TBN. HWA and GTA excelled over the televangelists of their day in both areas. There are at least 5 large church campuses larger and grander than Dave's Wadsworth campus within a 5 mile radius of my home, all of which have infinitely more members than Dave. You can analyze the reasons behind these facts into the ground. But, the analyses are only impressive if they lead to improved results and ultimate success.
It certainly appears that Dave's father didn't have much involvement with his life.
Dave's writings and speech, come across as being disjointed and repetitious most of the time, which in my mind shows that his mind is convoluted and unstable. His ego is always running wild and he shows this by always talking about himself and comparing his self to HWA.
One wonders if his Dad abused him when he was younger.
Trouble in paradise: On video of HQ campus - https://rcg.org/hq-info.html - at 8:40 mark: a 2-second shot of church service in temporary Administration bldg chapel shows MANY EMPTY SEATS - oops! Apostasy crisis, showing at HQ?
Any empty seat crisis would be amplified in a planned grand Auditorium!.
I work as a psychologist with 35 years experience. People who over analyze or over think can be mentally ill. They are obsessive and stuck on memes in their heads. All Dave Packs sermons revolve around himself. I believe him to be a narcissist as well having had some personal experience with him in WWCG. I suspected it then, I would make book on it now. Narcissists are gas-lighters, liars, deceivers, malignant people who feed off others. They are in their own minds at least, geniuses, who have the finest things, the best education, the most this, the worst that. As in the case of HWA whose experiences were always above average. "The worst case of typhoid ever seen in the history of the world!" They attract empathic and co-dependent people who can hang on for years.
I am not sure what the quoted passage is intended to mean. It seems like the speaker is saying that after much analysis it is impossible to establish a prophecy timeline. The large context of the passage might cast light on what is intended.
Anyway, Armstrongist preachers have always had to play a game of brinkmanship with prophecy. Their objective is to stir up the base to a level of excitement that stimulates the influx of tithes and offerings yet not get so deterministic about prophetic events they are caught in a blatant lie.
I remember Herman Hoeh at the Feast making a statement that was a masterful exercise in this kind of brinkmanship. He said that it may take a little longer for end time events to start (this was in 1979 and 1972 was fading in memory) but once the events began, they would proceed much faster than anyone expected. So in one principle he combined the idea of "delay" and "quickness". This gave the audience opportunity to hear what they wanted to believe (mostly the quick arrival of the end) but took the Armstrongist ministry off the hook if events did not happen as predicted.
For Armstrongist preachers, predictive prophecy is not an element of theology. It is not a cry in the wilderness to repentance. It is simply a "cash cow." Analyze that!
BE WARNED! WHO DOES NORMAN BATES -"PSYCHO 1960" -REMIND YOU OF???...
Norman Bates: It's not like my mother is a maniac or a raving thing. She just goes a little mad sometimes. We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?
Norman Bates: A boy's best friend is his mother.
Norman Bates: Sometimes... when she talks to me like that... I feel I'd like to go up there... and curse her... and-and-and leave her forever! Or at least defy her! But I know I can't.
Norman Bates: A son is a poor substitute for a lover.
Norman Bates: Well, I'm not a fool. And I'm not capable of being fooled! Not even by a woman.
Norman Bates: Mother! Oh God, mother! Blood! Blood!
It would be time well spent by Dave if, in his introspective moments, he were to study DSM IV or V. The problem or disconnect would come into play as his ego forced him into imagining that he alone is qualified to administer his own therapy!
6.56 AM HWA in his book Mystery of the ages, puts down everybody and everything in order to exalt himself. For instance, he wrongly accuses all other churches of 'nailing the ten commandments to the cross.' He put down higher education with his 'they teach people how to earn a living, but not how to live.' A ridiculous accusation. If a person does a engineering course, he wants to learn engineering, not 'how to live.' Not forgetting, he didn't exactly teach others how to live with his incessant 'give way,' which is a monstrous anti concept that attacks basic reality's action-reaction, cause and effect. No wonder he's still worshipped by the morally challenged.
During my early IT days, there was the phrase paralysis of analysis. The epitome of this for me was a project that was referred to as "the most extensively analyzed and tightly-controlled disaster in EDP history". Or in the back room, "the project manager did to this project what he hasn't done to his with in years..." And over the years, Dave has shown different consequences of being the anal-ist. At first, the rigidity and fixation with "precision of doctrine" and now his disordered flights of fantasy.
Pack will never let another man's lips praise him because they just wouldn't make the words quite powerful and eloquent enough to establish him as the foremost in all categories of whatever you can think of.
But I'll try:
He is Apostles (was told by his yes men ministers he exhibited fruits of apostleship), Prophet (false, August 2013), Joshua (Not invincible, has heart issues), Elija (failed, sets dates), and if therefore Elijah a type of Christ (ehhh, nope). He is a brand that has been plucked from the fire (Others have been in worse fires, he plucked himself out). He is a poker (translated: bully), Son of a military family, a family who are thinkers and movers, puzzle makers and geniuses (There are more members in the church who can blow away his credentials). He himself is untestable in certain areas of psychology of which he bashes as the study of satans nature, not human nature. (He is untestable because he makes no sense, is sometimes incoherent and exhibits traits of a psychopath).
He holds one of a few Elijah cups (means nothing, just crystal), has baptized many thousand (where are they now?), established many churches (why haven't they left with him?), he is unique, persecuted, has been treated horribly by what he perceived were supposed to be Giants in God. (I wonder why?) Has rewritten all of HWA books and booklets by himself (false, many behind the seens have lost sleep putting these books and booklets together, he later takes credit). The foremost expert in Church history. (hahahahahahah, at one point claimed apostles got everything wrong, had to correct himself). The foremost expert in prophecy. (but needed actual Rabbies to help with certain translations and advice, still got it wrong Bahahahahahha!).
He understands architecture and landscaping impeccably. (Campus plagued with many troubles and errors) He can turn his visions into reality (So can others, it's called human ingenuity). He is swift, accurate, studies many long hours. (spent two years correcting himself) He is humble. (regularly boasts about himself) Hates when people see the man and not God. (sike!!!)
He is a pastor at heart. (destroys families) Only ever talks about the Truth, every day and night. (Lunatic) He is the most powerful man on the earth above the President of the U.S.A (Yes, in his own head)
All my life I’ve studied war. I often wondered why I come from a background where everyone in my family is involved in war. I never went to war. I was appointed to Annapolis, but, of course, never went. I was fascinated and studied it. My uncle Frank, who’s probably the greatest…If not, he would be second…authority on the Civil War in the world. He had a giant library. And my grandfather, all my life…his father…was an absolute master; knew everything you could ever know, right out of the top of his head about every Indian tribe…every battle with the Indians. My grandfather Crowl could tell you all the chiefs, everywhere; dates, battles…with their amazing memory. And so, I heard that. To be around my grandfather was to hear stories of Tecumseh and Yellow Jacket, and all the different chiefs…Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull. As a child, I just heard all that. I read books about it. It was the lore I grew up on. I mean, even my girl cousins married military officers, pilots and naval officers, and so forth. - the-greatest-untold-story-part-15
At a certain point, it’s like the Bible cracked opened. I’ve been studying the prophets since I was 17 years old…and I’m 67 now…and wrestling with them and wrestling with them, and it was as though it was a 1,500-piece puzzle that my mother used to buy, except that it was after she poured it out of the box and it was a pile on the table. In many ways when you read the prophets, that’s what it was. There were some things we saw. We had a few little parts of the puzzle, and maybe some big parts of the puzzle, of course, too, that were put together; but great amounts of the puzzle did not make sense. You could see…If you have ever made big puzzles…You could see certain colors and you could figure “Well, maybe it’s up in here. It’s green, or grass or trees, or it’s blue like the sky, or white like a cloud, or maybe there was red…that was part of a barn or something.” I’ve done ships on the ocean, all kinds of pastoral scenes. About everything you could imagine that painters would paint can be made into puzzles and I love to do it. Maybe it’s part of my training in analysis. The problem was…you could always finish those puzzles of my childhood. One of my childhood friends, a few months ago, sent an e-mail and just reminded me of the time we used to sit and make puzzles as a child; giant puzzles that my mother would buy. I always looked forward to a big puzzle…So I spent a lot of my childhood…You know, little kids starts with four- or six-piece puzzles. I don’t remember those, but I do remember the ones that would even be 3,000 pieces. Boy, you had to stay with it and it was addictive. - the-greatest-untold-story-part-23
"I tremble to add or subtract from a book that says I get it…I get the plagues or I lose eternal life, if I add to it, particularly"
ReplyDeleteThen tremble on Dave 'cause you have a habit of adding and subtracting from the Book big time. Actually you don't get it. And you are mostly anal-itical in your skills so don't get too carried away with yourself.
We do notice you catching yourself getting all absorbed with your skills when you say " I mean, there are qualities that all of you have that I don’t have. I envy some of you. Mr. Armstrong had qualities I don’t have." endeavoring to make it seem to the brethren you aren't bragging. If you think you are an anal-ist in the extreme like none you ever knew...well...you need to get out more.
ReplyDelete“My mother picked my logic to pieces from the time I could say 'Mommy, please, I want to go play ball.'”--DCP
Dave's “logic” is still faulty. In fact, it seems to be getting worse all the time.
Too bad that his mother did not teach him to respect other people and their property.
ReplyDelete“I mean, I beat the Greek up and beat the Hebrew up, and timelines…”--DCP
Sounds just like Dave. That is how he gets the Bible to say whatever he wants it to say. He beats his followers up pretty badly too.
If Dave actually is a superb analyst, then the axiom that "any strength taken to extreme becomes a weakness" must be kicking in.
ReplyDeleteDave's own HWA confirmation bias is allowed to play into his penchant for over-analyzing. In his statements above, he confirms both! "I am an analyst in the extreme!" Really??? HWA's belief in Ussher's chronology, coupled with the extrabiblical theory of a 7,000 year plan are the only basis for the belief that this is the precise time of the end. That is what originally led them to the dates between 1972-75. Deeper fantasies in Greek and Hebrew neither deepen the basic HWA framework, nor confirm it. The Armstrongist doomsdayers have also always been able to point to anecdotal evidence on the world news scene, such as the latest existential threat (which mankind had generally been very good at mitigating or enduring). In fact, they regularly present bytes removed from context as if they were parts of a solid evidentiary trail.
The primary rationale, or reason for tithing specifically to Armstrongism has always been the funding of the great commission. Since the era of the spewing or splintering, only miniaturized cookie-cutter versions of the once great "World Tomorrow" program are going out, all but invisible, and hosted not by polished professionals who command attention, but at best by Spokesmen's Club or Ambassador Club quality speakers. And Bob Thiel and certain others don't even rise to that low level! If one were applying the skill set of a financial analyst in order to identify the specific work which produces the greatest results, in order to determine where to invest tithes, no ACOG is anywhere near the viability of man-made works, let alone the work of God!
It does not really matter what David Pack puts out as a result of his analyses. Only results count, and these have been statistically negligible for years, and aren't exactly trending upwards. Dave and the others have not been inspired with a unique or poignant message that commands the level of income or attention enjoyed by the most average presenters on TBN. HWA and GTA excelled over the televangelists of their day in both areas. There are at least 5 large church campuses larger and grander than Dave's Wadsworth campus within a 5 mile radius of my home, all of which have infinitely more members than Dave. You can analyze the reasons behind these facts into the ground. But, the analyses are only impressive if they lead to improved results and ultimate success.
BB
"Mr. Armstrong had qualities I don’t have." Well, being a narcissist and such a self entered ego are qualities Dave certainly did share with HWA.
ReplyDeleteIt certainly appears that Dave's father didn't have much involvement with his life.
ReplyDeleteDave's writings and speech, come across as being disjointed and repetitious most of the time, which in my mind shows that his mind is convoluted and unstable. His ego is always running wild and he shows this by always talking about himself and comparing his self to HWA.
One wonders if his Dad abused him when he was younger.
Trouble in paradise:
ReplyDeleteOn video of HQ campus - https://rcg.org/hq-info.html - at 8:40 mark: a 2-second shot of church service in temporary Administration bldg chapel shows MANY EMPTY SEATS - oops! Apostasy crisis, showing at HQ?
Any empty seat crisis would be amplified in a planned grand Auditorium!.
I work as a psychologist with 35 years experience.
ReplyDeletePeople who over analyze or over think can be mentally ill. They are obsessive and stuck on memes in their heads.
All Dave Packs sermons revolve around himself. I believe him to be a narcissist as well having had some personal experience with him in WWCG. I suspected it then, I would make book on it now.
Narcissists are gas-lighters, liars, deceivers, malignant people who feed off others.
They are in their own minds at least, geniuses, who have the finest things, the best education, the most this, the worst that. As in the case of HWA whose experiences were always above average. "The worst case of typhoid ever seen in the history of the world!"
They attract empathic and co-dependent people who can hang on for years.
I am not sure what the quoted passage is intended to mean. It seems like the speaker is saying that after much analysis it is impossible to establish a prophecy timeline. The large context of the passage might cast light on what is intended.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, Armstrongist preachers have always had to play a game of brinkmanship with prophecy. Their objective is to stir up the base to a level of excitement that stimulates the influx of tithes and offerings yet not get so deterministic about prophetic events they are caught in a blatant lie.
I remember Herman Hoeh at the Feast making a statement that was a masterful exercise in this kind of brinkmanship. He said that it may take a little longer for end time events to start (this was in 1979 and 1972 was fading in memory) but once the events began, they would proceed much faster than anyone expected. So in one principle he combined the idea of "delay" and "quickness". This gave the audience opportunity to hear what they wanted to believe (mostly the quick arrival of the end) but took the Armstrongist ministry off the hook if events did not happen as predicted.
For Armstrongist preachers, predictive prophecy is not an element of theology. It is not a cry in the wilderness to repentance. It is simply a "cash cow." Analyze that!
BE WARNED! WHO DOES NORMAN BATES -"PSYCHO 1960" -REMIND YOU OF???...
ReplyDeleteNorman Bates: It's not like my mother is a maniac or a raving thing. She just goes a little mad sometimes. We all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't you?
Norman Bates: A boy's best friend is his mother.
Norman Bates: Sometimes... when she talks to me like that... I feel I'd like to go up there... and curse her... and-and-and leave her forever! Or at least defy her! But I know I can't.
Norman Bates: A son is a poor substitute for a lover.
Norman Bates: Well, I'm not a fool. And I'm not capable of being fooled! Not even by a woman.
Norman Bates: Mother! Oh God, mother! Blood! Blood!
David Pack has all the signs of a psychopath.
ReplyDeleteIt would be time well spent by Dave if, in his introspective moments, he were to study DSM IV or V. The problem or disconnect would come into play as his ego forced him into imagining that he alone is qualified to administer his own therapy!
DeleteBB
I have no idea who in the hell can sit in on his sermons and keep from laughing at his ignorance.
ReplyDeleteIf he's a 'analyst in the extreme,' he must know that he is a fraud.
ReplyDelete6.56 AM
ReplyDeleteHWA in his book Mystery of the ages, puts down everybody and everything in order to exalt himself. For instance, he wrongly accuses all other churches of 'nailing the ten commandments to the cross.' He put down higher education with his 'they teach people how to earn a living, but not how to live.' A ridiculous accusation. If a person does a engineering course, he wants to learn engineering, not 'how to live.'
Not forgetting, he didn't exactly teach others how to live with his incessant 'give way,' which is a monstrous anti concept that attacks basic reality's action-reaction,
cause and effect.
No wonder he's still worshipped by the morally challenged.
During my early IT days, there was the phrase paralysis of analysis. The epitome of this for me was a project that was referred to as "the most extensively analyzed and tightly-controlled disaster in EDP history". Or in the back room, "the project manager did to this project what he hasn't done to his with in years..."
ReplyDeleteAnd over the years, Dave has shown different consequences of being the anal-ist. At first, the rigidity and fixation with "precision of doctrine" and now his disordered flights of fantasy.
Pack will never let another man's lips praise him because they just wouldn't make the words quite powerful and eloquent enough to establish him as the foremost in all categories of whatever you can think of.
ReplyDeleteBut I'll try:
He is Apostles (was told by his yes men ministers he exhibited fruits of apostleship), Prophet (false, August 2013), Joshua (Not invincible, has heart issues), Elija (failed, sets dates), and if therefore Elijah a type of Christ (ehhh, nope). He is a brand that has been plucked from the fire (Others have been in worse fires, he plucked himself out). He is a poker (translated: bully), Son of a military family, a family who are thinkers and movers, puzzle makers and geniuses (There are more members in the church who can blow away his credentials). He himself is untestable in certain areas of psychology of which he bashes as the study of satans nature, not human nature. (He is untestable because he makes no sense, is sometimes incoherent and exhibits traits of a psychopath).
He holds one of a few Elijah cups (means nothing, just crystal), has baptized many thousand (where are they now?), established many churches (why haven't they left with him?), he is unique, persecuted, has been treated horribly by what he perceived were supposed to be Giants in God. (I wonder why?) Has rewritten all of HWA books and booklets by himself (false, many behind the seens have lost sleep putting these books and booklets together, he later takes credit). The foremost expert in Church history. (hahahahahahah, at one point claimed apostles got everything wrong, had to correct himself). The foremost expert in prophecy. (but needed actual Rabbies to help with certain translations and advice, still got it wrong Bahahahahahha!).
He understands architecture and landscaping impeccably. (Campus plagued with many troubles and errors) He can turn his visions into reality (So can others, it's called human ingenuity). He is swift, accurate, studies many long hours. (spent two years correcting himself) He is humble. (regularly boasts about himself) Hates when people see the man and not God. (sike!!!)
He is a pastor at heart. (destroys families) Only ever talks about the Truth, every day and night. (Lunatic) He is the most powerful man on the earth above the President of the U.S.A (Yes, in his own head)
I SAID I'D TRY!!!!
All my life I’ve studied war. I often wondered why I come from a background where everyone in my family is involved in war. I never went to war. I was appointed to Annapolis, but, of course, never went. I was fascinated and studied it. My uncle Frank, who’s probably the greatest…If not, he would be second…authority on the Civil War in the world. He had a giant library. And my grandfather, all my life…his father…was an absolute master; knew everything you could ever know, right out of the top of his head about every Indian tribe…every battle with the Indians. My grandfather Crowl could tell you all the chiefs, everywhere; dates, battles…with their amazing memory. And so, I heard that. To be around my grandfather was to hear stories of Tecumseh and Yellow Jacket, and all the different chiefs…Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull. As a child, I just heard all that. I read books about it. It was the lore I grew up on. I mean, even my girl cousins married military officers, pilots and naval officers, and so forth. - the-greatest-untold-story-part-15
ReplyDeleteAt a certain point, it’s like the Bible cracked opened. I’ve been studying the prophets since I was 17 years old…and I’m 67 now…and wrestling with them and wrestling with them, and it was as though it was a 1,500-piece puzzle that my mother used to buy, except that it was after she poured it out of the box and it was a pile on the table. In many ways when you read the prophets, that’s what it was. There were some things we saw. We had a few little parts of the puzzle, and maybe some big parts of the puzzle, of course, too, that were put together; but great amounts of the puzzle did not make sense.
ReplyDeleteYou could see…If you have ever made big puzzles…You could see certain colors and you could figure “Well, maybe it’s up in here. It’s green, or grass or trees, or it’s blue like the sky, or white like a cloud, or maybe there was red…that was part of a barn or something.” I’ve done ships on the ocean, all kinds of pastoral scenes. About everything you could imagine that painters would paint can be made into puzzles and I love to do it. Maybe it’s part of my training in analysis. The problem was…you could always finish those puzzles of my childhood. One of my childhood friends, a few months ago, sent an e-mail and just reminded me of the time we used to sit and make puzzles as a child; giant puzzles that my mother would buy.
I always looked forward to a big puzzle…So I spent a lot of my childhood…You know, little kids starts with four- or six-piece puzzles. I don’t remember those, but I do remember the ones that would even be 3,000 pieces. Boy, you had to stay with it and it was addictive. - the-greatest-untold-story-part-23