Superfantabulous Dave, not a humble bone in his body. His awesome tapes led 15,000 out of WCG and eventually 100,000, or so he claims. The funny thing about Dave during all of the changes, his name was never mentioned in Pasadena. The talk was about UCG forming, not Dave. Dave was irrelevant.
Now, maybe the day…If you wanted to make a comparison…Because I’ve long believed…Over the year since I introduced the Man of Sin, I’ve long believed, now, that the leader of the Worldwide Church of God was a type. But he stood up on December 31, 1994…Here’s what he did…in Atlanta and he gave a sermon…I got the tape, transcribed it—the whole thing…and he said, “The Law’s done away; the Sabbath’s done away; the Holy Days are done away; tithing, clean and unclean meats…it’s all gone. It’s all Old Testament.” Everything—gone.
And within about four months, 25,000…23,000, something like that, had gone with United. It dwindled down later. More thousands came with Global, where I was. I was very involved. I helped about 15,000 families get out of Worldwide, with my tapes. And basically, over the next months, about 100,000 people, and eventually it way above that, left the Worldwide Church of God. That’s almost like the Abomination sat in the temple on December 31, 1994. I’m just giving you a kind of rhetorical parallel. It wasn’t some absolute biblical type that I know of, but boy, there were a lot of parallels.
Dave needs to produce tapes and materials to help people and families LEAVE his church too!
ReplyDeleteThunder-bitchin'! This is like someone standing outside of a prison, convincing convicts who have been pardoned that the moral high road is for them to turn around and go back inside!
ReplyDeleteHey Dave, next lifetime, if this happens again to see if you can get it right, try not to filter the epistle to the Galatians through the Old Covenant or Armstrongism!
BB
I've had Mr. Pack as a minister and his attitude is what prompted me to leave the church. He needs to learn how to treat people better instead of walking over them.
ReplyDeleteBB begged Dave.. "Hey Dave, next lifetime, if this happens again to see if you can get it right, try not to filter the epistle to the Galatians through the Old Covenant or Armstrongism!"
ReplyDeleteAnd too...don't filter the the Paul of Galatians through the Book of Acts or James. :) Just sayin':P
Good point, Dennis. At least, to James's credit, he knew enough to prescribe Noahide law for the Gentile churches. Herbie and Dave don't even recognize that as the edict of the first Jerusalem Council.
DeleteBB
And too also yet again....I have never found the WCG ministry real fond of Galatians. "Hard to be understood" and all that. HWA simply loved Galatians 1:1-11 where he brags his Gospel. (HWA) like Paul's was not received from any man but by revelation of God etc. He especially liked the part where you could curse those who came with any other Gospel than the one he received. (Paul and HWA...though HWA's was not the same as Paul's). James was most likely written to challenge Paul's Romans and the great duke out over works and faith began in earnest.
ReplyDeleteJames 1:18 and all that
Perhaps Dave's only positive contribution was his list of WCG doctrinal and policy changes, published in Ambassador Report.
ReplyDeleteDave like many other ministers, leaves out whether he taught the Tkach changes before he left the organisation.
ReplyDeleteBB...It is SO refreshing to hear at least someone mention the Noahide Rules in Acts 15 for Gentiles! The question was how do Gentiles become Christians and the answer was the same way Gentiles become Jews. Noahide rules , which as you know, had nothing to do with sabbaths, holy days or tithes and all things Jewish for Jews even Jewish Christians .
ReplyDeleteIt still seems to me it would inevitably lead to division between Jewish and Gentile Christians no matter. My last sermon at Myrtle Beach was on this topic and the phrase "For they have Moses read every week in the synagogue" (or close to that quote) simply meant that those who were worried about Judaism going away did not have to worry as Moses was read every week etc. It did not mean "and once the Gentiles come into the church as Christians, they can go to Jewish Christian services and hear Moses read and pick up all the other stuff they are supposed to do....". It did not mean that.
You can ridicule Mr. Pack all you want but the ACOG has ministers just as, if not more, dangerous as Mr. Pack. Gerald Flurry comes to mind.
ReplyDeleteAlways find it funny how people like Pack here, describe their "leaving the WCG" (to join a splinter)in such proud terms.
ReplyDeleteIf there was one thing drummed into our heads for years by HWA, it was how important was to "stay in the church". I remember in sermons and what-not, HWA himself musing and predicting that after he was gone, the members might break up into myriad groups, and admonished them not to, as being in the church was important to their salvation, blah blah blah.
And after all, he himself directly appointed Tkach as his own successor. I mean, IF you're going to believe HWA was God's appointed, then Tkach was hand-picked by him. Water-down doctrines or not, he was "Christ's appointed".
So, rationalizations aside, everyone who left, clearly left "the body of Christ" which for years and years we were specifically and clearly told *not* to do.
But somehow, members leaving the WCG under Tkach just managed to brush aside all of those admonitions about never leaving God's church (and God forbid ever starting your own and drawing members away -- sure way to get yourself marked), often then subsequently leaving that splinter for yet another splinter, and somehow it's all ok and would have had HWA's blessing. Right..
Of course, none of that applies if you left the church due to realizing the whole kit and kaboodle was nonsense from the start, and just washed your hands of the whole mess.
I have never found the WCG ministry real fond of Galatians
ReplyDeleteGalatians, Hebrews and other books have largely been relegated to sources when quote mining for proof texts. Despite ministers playing with the Greek words, I’ve never heard one mention that biased Protestant scholars translated some of the verb tenses in Hebrews incorrectly.
A few years ago I listened to sermons on Galatians from GTA, Ron Dart and Bob Thiel; I couldn't find any at the RCG site. GTA's was certainly the most entertaining, and Ron's the most easy-going and informative.
Noahide Rules
A few weeks ago when I mentioned the Acts 15 letter to the Gentiles, I avoided the term Noahide Laws for several reasons, one being that it was an anachronism. Although Jewish scholars had Seven Laws of the Covenant with Noah, or Seven Laws for Gentiles, they weren’t formally codified until about 100 years after the Jerusalem decision. The laws in the Acts 15 letter bear some resemblance to conditions described in Ezekiel 33.
Michael @ 9:1- spoke of HWA admonishing member not to leave the church. My understanding is that the church is not an organization, whether the Roman Catholic, United Methodist or WCG. Rather, it is an organism, the body of Christ, it consists of all believers, wherever they live, with whoever they fellowship with. Christians who left the church did not leave the church, they simply left an organization. They left an organization that they probably felt was no longer a reasonable representative or ambassador for Jesus Christ. They may have felt that there were better organizations to be a part of to have a Christian impact on the world.
ReplyDeleteDennis, I have read one commentary that says James was saying that there are people who attend synagogue where they are hearing Moses being read each week and now some of these people want to become Christians and are wondering how the Mosaic laws apply to them. Therefore we, the Jerusalem Council, need to tell them that the Mosaic laws are not applicable to them.
ReplyDeleteI think this explanation makes more sense and it's consistent, I believe, with your stance.
3.45 AM
ReplyDeleteSo true, people are baptised in the name of Jesus Christ rather than HWA or WCG.
It's a common lie by many different denominations that they alone are the one true church, and if you leave their organization, you lose your eternal life. A deliberate lie to keep members chained to their church.
In Revelation, come judgment day, people are judged according to their works. There is no mention of church attendance.
In this statement, the idea that the OT is done away is couched in language that intended to make it seem appalling - as if anarchy has ensued. Yet this failure to understand the status of the OT is precisely the locus of heresy. The continuation of the OT beyond its expiration date is the error of a small collection of people outside the Christian pale. Yet the literature explaining the end of the OT and the beginning of the NT is abundant so there is no need to summarize it here.
ReplyDeleteThe "take away" from this is that just because someone is academically inclined and is confronted with clear written statements, this does not guarantee that understanding will happen. Understanding is formed and malformed by a whole host of influencing variables. Raw intelligence is not protective and sadly there many smart people who are Armstrongists.
My only further observation: There seems to be a "spirit" of Armstrongism. And that spirit thrives within the RCOG. I knew nothing of the RCOG and just recently became curious and visited its website. The language and photographs there are palpably Armstrongist. It is remarkable how the RCOG so effectively replicated the whole Armstrongist shtick - a little uncanny.
It is my understanding that the Old Testament hasn't been done away with. After all, didn't Paul say that All Scripture is inspired and is profitable, etc.? But, the OLD COVENANT was done away with. And who, may I ask, were parties to that covenant? Let's see, not Abraham and God. Not the Church and God. Not God and the Chinese or Koreans. But Israel and God. When I die, my estate doesn't have to continue with my cell phone contract. When one party to a covenant dies, the covenant is over with. Jesus died . . . end of covenant. Now we have a new one, a better one. If I'm wrong about this, please correct me.
ReplyDeleteI was in the WCG for 4 years, spent two at AC, met my future wife there. I am glad I was a part of it and even more glad I got out quick enough. Meeting my wife there was worth being in the cult (today is our 44th wedding anniversary). It also immunized me against other cults. I had just enough to make me a critical thinker, a Berean (Acts 17:10), one who questions rather than blindly accepts what some "expert" says. I didn't suffer from untreated medical issues; break up a marriage, give all my assets to the church, etc. I was one of the fortunate ones who probably benefited more than was harmed by my experience.
The 1939 article by HWA on church government was a real eye opener. However HWA soon gave up that idea as soon as he realized that the tithes will stay in the local church area and he would have no control.
ReplyDeleteEvery cent had to go to headquarters. This way he not only controlled the money, he also controlled the people. Much the same way that the elite bankers do today. They control the politicians by controlling the money.
After a while, he stopped preaching the need to develop the fruits of the spirit, good works, godly love, Christian living, overcoming sin, abounding in the faith of God.
ReplyDeleteAlmost all his sermons have the backdrop of the need to fund the work. Funding the work has converted into funding the campus.
At one point Pack was convinced that to do the work meant to build up the campus to get it ready for the massive amounts of people who would come from the splinters in August 2013, but because that never happened, he was forced to pursue bank loans.
He announced early 2017 that the membership no longer had to worry about funding the campus that all money that would come in would be spent on the work, but you can so painstaking and obviously see that he continue to fund projects on the campus with common money from the membership, and if you take out loans how do they get paid back?
How does the church make the majority of its money?
It's all on the shoulders of the flock!
Sweetblood777 said...
ReplyDeleteThe 1939 article by HWA on church government was a real eye opener. However HWA soon gave up that idea as soon as he realized that the tithes will stay in the local church area and he would have no control.
Every cent had to go to headquarters. This way he not only controlled the money, he also controlled the people. Much the same way that the elite bankers do today. They control the politicians by controlling the money.
Sweetblood is exactly right. HWA's 1939 was as well-written an article on church government that you will see. HWA abandoned it in order to control the people, yes, and was urged to do so by Hoeh and Meredith. After this, no one (including HWA) was ever able to refute the excellent points of the 1939 article. All HWA ever did was casually sweep it aside, saying "I didn't have a good understanding of government."
That said, most of the COGs today continue to enforce the collection-at-headquarters policy, bad as it is. However, some (about 40) UCG congregations collect tithes locally, and a local council decides what to do with the money. In fact, one man told me that when he left LCG for UCG, he told the pastor that he didn't tithe to UCG. The pastor stopped him mid-sentence, saying "Your tithes are between you and God. I don't monitor tithes; UCG doesn't monitor tithes."