Just received this information about Christian Educational Ministries. Allie Dart's fears realized.
16:15 into this church service (at Church of God International Tyler Texas last Saturday) Mr. Larry Watkins announces he is going back to work for Christian Education Ministries! Allie Dart fired him from CEM shortly after Mr. Dart's accident several years ago. She claimed he had stabbed Mr. Dart in the back by trying to get himself set up as president of CEM.
The CEM board of directors has now rehired Mr. Watkins in spite of Mrs. Dart's insistence that Mr. Watkins never be brought back to CEM after her death.
Mr. Watkins also says in his announcement that he has talked to Charles Groce and Vance Stinson of CGI. He says that CEM and CGI will now work together more closely. Will we see some kind of unification of the two groups some time in the future? With Mrs. Dart gone, there is no one to stop it now. You can count on it happening. This has been predicted by insiders for several years now.
View video here: Webcast Replay
If the Darts' mission is countermanded, CEM loses its integrity and goes straight into the dumper. There are thousands of "nonaligned" ACOG members who are vehemently against joining any of the splinters, but used Ron Dart's ministry and materials to "home school". In a way, that almost sounds like the early Jewish Christians during apostolic times (of course, that's held up as the ideal that everyone claims to resemble).
ReplyDeleteBB
and that, boys & girls, is why she left her estate to a new organization that she set up....
ReplyDeleteAw, she was only a woman. Who cares what a woman wants. Women aren't supposed to tell MEN what to do, so forget it. We MEN will do whatever we want. So there!
ReplyDeleteNo matter how broken, battered, or hurting they leave a woman, they will do whatever the hell they want cause god said they are the boss.
Shame to hear :( I figured it wouldn't take long for gem to be swollowed by one of the acog's
ReplyDeleteLarry Watkins is still alive???
ReplyDeleteWas it fortuitous (or providential?) that the CEM cruise had its memorable Last Grear Day celebration with CGI Jamaica just ahead of that Sabbath announcement of Watkins' return to CEM? I think,though, seriously, that if you really know Charles Groce and Vance Stinson you would see most lucidly that that they are fundamentally at one with Ron Dart's mission .
ReplyDeleteI have worked with these men for 35 years and I can attest with the utmost sincerity and passion that they don't have an authoritarian bone in them. They have been my supervisors and the freedom I have been given to innovate and adapt is unheard of even among some independents. That is why the Jamaican CGI has grown so significantly. We could NEVER have grown without Charles and Vance's remarkable opennes to change and their non-oppressive leadership. And certainly if we were associated with any other main COG we would not have grown as rapidly.The other COG groups here are exhibiting the same American rate of COG growth and are mainly recycling members back and forth..
CGI Jamaica's difference is not a matter of just local creativity but the level of freedom and respect given to local leadership.
Ron Dart has been my hero. I call him the father of the Jamaican CGI. He guided me in the early days of growing CGI. His influence on me as a teacher has been profound.Ron was a first-rate teacher and a speaker.But in terms of scholarship and exposure to recognized theologians and orthodox theology, Vance Stinson is unequaled among ALL leaders of splinters. His theological sophistication is amazing for someone in the Armstring movement,a movement , quite frankly, more distinguished for its obscurantism and anti-intellectualism. I can testify as a 35-year black ,overseas veteran of CGI that the level of tolerance ,cosmopolitanism and broad-mindedness displayed by the leadership of CGI is exemplary and the CGI-CEM liaison should prove beneficial to the health of the COG and will benefit independents.
I assure you that Gary,Byker Bob,Connie and Steve D won't have negative things to comment as a result of thus deepening bond.Ian Boyne
Was it fortuitous (or providential?) that the CEM cruise had its memorable Last Grear Day celebration with CGI Jamaica just ahead of that Sabbath announcement of Watkins' return to CEM? I think,though, seriously, that if you really know Charles Groce and Vance Stinson you would see most lucidly that that they are fundamentally at one with Ron Dart's mission .
ReplyDeleteI have worked with these men for 35 years and I can attest with the utmost sincerity and passion that they don't have an authoritarian bone in them. They have been my supervisors and the freedom I have been given to innovate and adapt is unheard of even among some independents. That is why the Jamaican CGI has grown so significantly. We could NEVER have grown without Charles and Vance's remarkable opennes to change and their non-oppressive leadership. And certainly if we were associated with any other main COG we would not have grown as rapidly.The other COG groups here are exhibiting the same American rate of COG growth and are mainly recycling members back and forth..
CGI Jamaica's difference is not a matter of just local creativity but the level of freedom and respect given to local leadership.
Ron Dart has been my hero. I call him the father of the Jamaican CGI. He guided me in the early days of growing CGI. His influence on me as a teacher has been profound.Ron was a first-rate teacher and a speaker.But in terms of scholarship and exposure to recognized theologians and orthodox theology, Vance Stinson is unequaled among ALL leaders of splinters. His theological sophistication is amazing for someone in the Armstring movement,a movement , quite frankly, more distinguished for its obscurantism and anti-intellectualism. I can testify as a 35-year black ,overseas veteran of CGI that the level of tolerance ,cosmopolitanism and broad-mindedness displayed by the leadership of CGI is exemplary and the CGI-CEM liaison should prove beneficial to the health of the COG and will benefit independents.
I assure you that Gary,Byker Bob,Connie and Steve D won't have negative things to comment as a result of thus deepening bond.Ian Boyne
It doesn't seem right that the old dead generation is trying to control the new generation. The Darts had their hour in the sun, kicked the bucket, and now it's the next generations turn.
ReplyDeleteACOG Trek - the next generation.
"I think,though, seriously, that if you really know Charles Groce and Vance Stinson you would see most lucidly that that they are fundamentally at one with Ron Dart's mission ."
ReplyDeleteWell, Mr. Boyne... I worked very closely with Ron Dart for the last ten years of his ministry before his accident, in contact with him almost daily (I checked a while back... I have over 10,000 emails from him in my archives...), and I have a totally different perspective on the compatibility between his approach to his mission and that of the CGI. :-) AND what his opinion was of "joining forces" with the CGI. He was indeed cordial, as he was with other COG groups, but he was ADAMANT that he had ZERO interest in trying to mesh his efforts with theirs. He LEFT the CGI for VERY GOOD REASONS in the 1990s, and had NO REASON to change his mind about that. He had moved on in MANY ways from their approach and understandings in many areas.
Not the least of which was, as you WELL know, the value of "central government" of church organizations. I'm sure you remember the article he wrote about the topic of Church Government that was printed years ago in the JOURNAL, NEWS OF THE CHURCHES OF GOD, and the article you wrote in rebuttal to it. That was NOT a "minor issue" for Ron Dart. It was a MAJOR matter that he felt passionately about, and about which you and he were on opposite poles.
I've also known Charles Groce since he was a WCG ministerial assistant back in the late 1960s. Shortly after he married his first wife. Including the ten years we were in the CGI (where my husband served as a pastor for seven years...we left in 1988 before GTA's huge scandal.) I'm sure he's sincere... as is Vance Stinson. But that doesn't mean his way of doing things and looking at things was compatible with Ron. In the slightest.
As for the "Great Freedom" which you have had for your own ministry in Jamaica, and the growth you've experienced, I would disagree with you about that too. Your situation was unique... and not at ALL reflective of what the CGI has been like through all these years in the USA. You have been isolated from the reality of the organization as it has been in the US, and allowed to "create your own reality" since you were so far from the Headquarters and not subject to micromanagement. And your successful efforts made the organization look good anyway, so why get in your way?
I particularly found THIS comment to be a "real hoot" (as the colloquial phrase is used in the southern US) " the level of tolerance,cosmopolitanism and broad-mindedness displayed by the leadership of CGI is exemplary..." I fear that "cosmopolitanism" and "broad mindedness" have NOT been words that ANYONE I know would use to describe the culture of the CGI in the US.
Surely you are aware that the rest of the organization has NOT enjoyed ANY cumulative growth, or impact on the outside world with its message, in the way your little fiefdom in Jamaica has. It is pretty much comatose, and has been for almost thirty years, mostly just meeting the needs of old-time COGers to have a place to go for the Sabbath.
Continuing my comments to Ian Boyne...
ReplyDeleteToward the end before his severe brain injury in 2010 left him unable to read, write, or think clearly, Ron Dart lamented to me regularly that listeners to his radio program wrote to him, mentioning that they were fascinated by his unusual teachings and wondering where they could go to find fellowship with people who shared his beliefs. Could he recommend congregations around the country? And the answer he shared with me over and over was...he had almost NO places he would recommend as being a "spiritually healthy" environment. NO, he did NOT recommend attending CGI congregations, or almost any other. There were a handful of independent small congregations he was comfortable with pointing people to... but only a handful.
He also regularly lamented that the dregs of the WCG .. including the CGi... had what he referred to as "defective spiritual DNA." Yes, including the CGI.
Just months before his accident, he spoke to me more than once about just "walking away" from the COG movement totally. He would roll over in his grave now if he could see what was happening to his legacy.
AND what some of the men on the board of CEM did to his wife... whom he loved dearly...after his brain injury...in the years before her death. THEY MADE ALLIE'S LIFE HELL. Men he thought were his "good friends." This whole situation now is a disgusting travesty. They are not "preserving his legacy." They are totally dishonoring it.
ReplyDeletePam on October 17, 2017 at 9:40 AM said...
“Toward the end before his severe brain injury in 2010 left him unable to read, write, or think clearly, Ron Dart lamented to me regularly that listeners to his radio program wrote to him, mentioning that they were fascinated by his unusual teachings and wondering where they could go to find fellowship with people who shared his beliefs. Could he recommend congregations around the country? And the answer he shared with me over and over was...he had almost NO places he would recommend as being a 'spiritually healthy' environment. NO, he did NOT recommend attending CGI congregations, or almost any other. There were a handful of independent small congregations he was comfortable with pointing people to... but only a handful.”
“Just months before his accident, he spoke to me more than once about just 'walking away' from the COG movement totally. He would roll over in his grave now if he could see what was happening to his legacy.”
NOBODY--other than other rebellious sinners--should have ever gone with a tattooed, gambling, fucking hypocrite like Garner Ted Armstrong to either his original Church of God, International (CGI) rebel group or his later Intercontinental Church of God (ICG) rebel group. This would have saved people not only from many years of GTA with his bad habit of babbling on TV and screwing around, but also from the many other rebels like Ron Dart and Ian Boyne who also just waste other people's time.
I always treasure--though I am rarely treated to --an incisive,highly reasoned,surgical and irenic response to my position.Pam Dewey has just provided that.I defer to Pam's intimate knowledge of Ron as a confidante. Yes ,CGI and Ron did disagree on church Government.And you are right,Pam, the one time I publicly disagreed with my revered teacher was when we sparred on that subject inThe Journal.
ReplyDeleteMy overarching point, though, is how couid greater cooperation and liaison between CGI and CEM be objectively bad and deleterious? We are not talking merger. We are talking collaboration,cooperation.Isn't that cooperation among the COGs what Ron strongly encouraged ,Pam? Would he think less cooperation and pooling of efforts is better than more?
If we are not just privileging rank carnality,bitter feelings based on past hurts and the COG apparent addiction to unforgiveness ,what empirically is wrong with Watkins' rehiring?Allie made provisions for her vision to go forward if CEM goes in a certain direction and Wes White, who still attends with CGI , is looking after that and there is already an incorporated organisation in place.I respect Wes who has a heart for unity and love among all COGs,as far as I can observe from my distance.
Mean-spiritedness has been a generational curse among us in Armstrongism.I harbor no hope it will be exorcised before the kingdom,sadly.
We can't discount Pam's first-hand knowledge nor her credibility .Ron left CGI when Ted was in charge.Many felt he should have left much earlier. The CGI is not the same organisation Ron left. And ,Pam, you are quite mistaken about what I know about the movement in the US.
I remember being at dinner with Ted Armstrong here in Janaica thirty years ago and his being absolutely amazed about how much I knew about what was taking place in the COGs in America and what various exWCG ministers were doing. I was the one who told him where Paul Royer was and what Fred Coulter was doing as well as what happened to William Dankenbring and what Raymond Cole was up to. John Trechak from Ambassador Report carried an article on me in the 1990s saying I was one of the most informed persons about the movement and yet I had remained .
I remember a Jamaican member's telling me ,Pam ,about meeting you at a Feast site in Florida a number of years ago and your expressing surprise after he told you how much I knew about the scandals ,that I was still supporting CGI .He said you thought I was just blissfully ignorant of what was going on outside of my CGI Jamaican bubble. I see you hold the same view many years after.
I can tell you I read every anti COG blog and have in my library every single book every written about the movement including the recently written one by African American Washington.
. Don't succumb to the cultural chauvinistic prejudice that all outside of white America are ignorant fools. And ,incidentally ,your lengthy piece on your website on the history of racist propaganda and stereotyping in the Plain Truth magazine and WCG literature was absolutely brilliant and the most comprehensive and chilling PT and WCG literature review I read. It deserves a journalistic award. Reading it affected me emotionally and I was filled with justifiable disgust over our despicably shameful racist history. But I don't make philosophical and theological decisions based on emotions, hence my remaining in the movement. And I am aware of the racism of Peter and the early Jewish ethnic chauvinists who dominated the Jerusalem church. (It was also an emotional experience reading Greg Doudna's book "Showdown in Big Sandy")
Aside from your unnecessarily offensive and insulting reference to my "fiefdom" in Jamaica, I appreciate your challenging and fair response to my post.Ian Boyne
ReplyDeletePam on October 17, 2017 at 9:40 AM said...
“Toward the end before his severe brain injury in 2010 left him unable to read, write, or think clearly, Ron Dart lamented to me regularly that listeners to his radio program wrote to him, mentioning that they were fascinated by his unusual teachings and wondering where they could go to find fellowship with people who shared his beliefs. Could he recommend congregations around the country? And the answer he shared with me over and over was...he had almost NO places he would recommend as being a 'spiritually healthy' environment. NO, he did NOT recommend attending CGI congregations, or almost any other. There were a handful of independent small congregations he was comfortable with pointing people to... but only a handful.”
Ahhh...so only he was right, and just about everyone else was wrong. Where have I heard that before in the COGs? Or, rather, where haven't I heard that among the so-called COGs?
Ian B, you seem to know how to set the cat amongst the pigeons, judging from the responses obtained by your comments. Now here is mine. While I have found Vance to be a competent journeyman theologian, where he shines is in his ability to prepare and present and disciplined and internally consistent argument. Nonetheless, it would be a mistake to hoist him up onto the pinnacle where you aim to place him. In the COG we have theologians such as John Lemley, Calvin Burrell, and Israel Steinmetz. All academically solid. And as sharp as Vance is, I think that trying to place him in their league might be like comparing the historians Herman Hoeh and Arnold Toynbee.
ReplyDeleteIan
ReplyDeleteIf you think Pams label 'fiefdom' is offensive and insulting, you should meet my sister and brother in law.
Ian Boyne, My knowledge of you and your positions, religious or otherwise, is limited to a smattering of comments and a few posts on this site. That said, you come across as having an inflated opinion of yourself. Perhaps as an educated man it is truly your talent and nature to speak the 'language' you do.
ReplyDeleteYour statement, "But I don't make philosophical and theological decisions based on emotions, hence my remaining in the movement.", strikes me as typical for one who places education and the idol of "logic" as their foremost position. I have known several who place logic over, if not to the exclusion of emotion in decision making, and have seen that imbalance fail them time and again, though they themselves are blind to it.
Is it logic or emotion that drives when disasters occur such as the shooting in Las Vegas that moved so many to aid, rescue and stand by others in their time of need? Was it logic or emotion that moved the good Samaritan to aid another broken human being on the side of the road?
Kindness, gentleness, brotherly love, and natural affection are NOT outcomes of 'logic'. They come from emotion. A true deep in the gut feeling. You can reason around a gut feeling all you want, and in the end, logic often comes up very short.
Interesting topic, 5:42. The DSM IV Axis II disorders that the doctrines and government of Armstrongism have left us with involve dead emotions and ambivalence. When you are recovering from Armstrongism, you actually have to learn to use logic to simulate the natural goodness and affections that you have permanently lost. It's a poor substitute, and it doesn't always work.
DeleteFortunately, there is a certain percentage of the general public also affected by Axis II disorders, so it's somewhat easy to go unnoticed. But it takes much work to cultivate or exhibit normal behavior, socially speaking.
BB
I do believe I feel a good one coming on. It's time once again to quote one of my very favorite Jewish recording artists, and an abstract passage he wrote that I always felt resembled HWA and GTA. A reading from Bob Dylan's "Desolation Row" (1965). Enjoy!
ReplyDelete"Across the street, they've nailed the curtains!
They're getting ready for the Feast!
The phantom of the opera in a perfect image of a priest.
They are spoon feeding Casanova
To get him to feel more assured.
Then they'll kill him with self-confidence after poisoning him with words!
And the phantom shouting to skinny girls,
"Get out of here if you don't know"
Casanova is just being punished for going to Desolation Row!"
BB
There is one reason and one reason only why CGI are all gooey eyed over the joining of CEM to them. MONEY MONEY MONEY
ReplyDeleteRon Dart was seen as a cash cow for years in CGI. Who trusts CGI ? not many who really knew them.
This is a shame and a strange situation for CEM given its reason for existing, not a church. But we all know CEM really died when Ron and Allie died.
5.42PM
ReplyDeleteYou accuse Ian of having a 'inflated opinion of yourself.' That's the nonstop song that redneck losers sing to their betters. It's common on meeting a redneck to be told strait away 'don't think you're better than me.'
Well, winners like Ian ARE better than you and your redneck pals.
Learn to give honour to whom honour it's due, and not swindle people like Ian Boyne by holding the respect they deserve.
BB From observation and personal experience I don't see emotions as dead in most. Anger often is the last "surviving" visible emotion. The others are there but they have often been wrapped up in rage and anger or as you say, "ambivalence". What I see is a terrifying fear in many to let their emotions (besides anger) have expression and to actual feel what they feel. To be human.
ReplyDeleteI do understand the damping down of emotions from the stomping down we humans endure. Shutting off emotion brings a 'reward' from tyrannical overlords. They are not going to oppress or punish for their subjects being unemotional, (unfeeling, unthinking) submissive drones. So we all learned to 'just say no' to anything that THEIR ugliness didn't appreciate.
The "church" has done more to dehumanize human beings than any other thing I know in their "searching the world over to make one proselyte..."
Anger, the emotion that is the outcome of crushing oppression and tyrannical rule. "...provoke not your children to wrath."
Anger can actually be constructive as an initial reaction, but it is rarely the emotion that gets the job done. I once had severe anger issues, but have worked very hard to get them under control, and have largely been successful. Part of that involved simply removing myself from the catalysts, or walking away when pushed, baited, or provoked.
DeleteI've also come to realize that while we can work on ourselves and make much progress in recovery, there are certain lost things we are not going to get back, and some symptoms we won't be able to get rid of until we receive transformation. Like I've asked before, wouldn't it have been so much nicer to have been lied to about Santa Claus?
BB
"There is one reason and one reason only why CGI are all gooey eyed over the joining of CEM to them. MONEY MONEY MONEY"
ReplyDeleteTotally false! We don't want anything from CEM...except the friendship of its affiliates. Larry checked with Charles and me to make sure his decision to go back to work for CEM met our approval. It was simply a matter of courtesy. I approved because that's what Larry wanted to do and because it was simply a non-issue where Larry's relationship with us is concerned. If he was offered a position with the newly formed RDEA or, for that matter, Samaritan's Purse, it would be fine with me if he accepted. What Larry does in that regard will NOT affect our friendship or his standing with CGI. In fact, if Larry decided to change his mind about employment with CEM, that, too, would have my approval.
Let me be perfectly clear on this: We do not in any way anticipate any increase in numbers, whether dollars or members, from Larry's involvement with CEM. It's just not going to happen! Further, CEM is not "joining" with us any more than its "joining" with other groups. The CEM board's intention is to help out with facilitating cooperation between groups.
I hope I have the friendship of the folks affiliated with CEM, but I don't want their money and am unconcerned with how they use it. It's none of my business and not my concern! I just wish them the very best in whatever they do. I can say the same for the newly formed RLDEA.
All we want from CEM is the friendship and fellowship of the people involved in it. That's it! The same is true regarding our relationship with other groups. We don't want their members or their money, just their friendship and fellowship. Period! You can doubt me if you want to. God knows our hearts. He knows the truth...and that's all that really matters.
Vance Stinson
Thanks Anonymous 8:40 for coming to my defense .I had ignored the comment, knowing that the worse thing for an "uppity nigger" like me to do is to exhibit any self-confidence.And especially with the socialization in the Armstrongite environment where any manifestation of a positive self-esteem or self-image was roundly condemned as "vanity ",I simply had no chance, with Gary's explicit protection of me from blatantly racist attacks.Detractors had to be more subtle.Ian Boyne
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 8:40 AM and Ian Boyne,
ReplyDeleteHow you turned my comment into something racially based I do not know. Unless you were coming from an emotional level and "bitter feelings based on past hurts"?
My comment was strictly based up the aspect of education and using logic often to the exclusion of any emotional input. I have a step parent and a spouse that love to ride the logic wagon and personally it comes across as they have an inflated opinion of themselves. It has not proved beneficial for them in regard to their relationships with most other family members. That was the place I was coming from.
Ian, I never called you that disgusting racial slur, it was not implied either. 'Anger, the emotion that is the outcome of crushing oppression and tyrannical rule.' I will see your feelings and response as coming from that place and horrific pain it has caused and continues to cause so many generations.
Frankly from a 'man of God' I expected a more reasoned response, if not answers to the questions asked.
Help me to learn. How could I have phrased things to get the point I was making across without hitting your wounded spirit? I am sorry you interpreted what I said in the manner you did.
I've come to really hate the N word. It doesn't matter who uses it, or for what purpose, it's just one of those things that will always cause hurt, even if that wasn't the intent.
ReplyDeleteBB
Actually Ian, Sorry is the wrong word. I am sad that you felt what I said the way you did. I'm sad for both of us. Sad that we live in a world filled with so much evil, pain, and hurt. Too much of it unhealed and certainly far from acknowledged, understood, or corrected.
ReplyDeleteTo set the captives free ,I accept that I misperceived and I accept your explanation that no racial slur was meant.Thanks for your generosity of spirit and the caring and compassion which made you take the time to explain.I should have refrained from making any comment at all. It was ill-advised of me.My apology. Ian Boyne
ReplyDelete"There is one reason and one reason only why CGI are all gooey eyed over the joining of CEM to them. MONEY MONEY MONEY
ReplyDeleteRon Dart was seen as a cash cow for years in CGI. Who trusts CGI ? not many who really knew them."
from what I know of the leadership at CGI, they are as honest and above board as you will find anywhere...their theology might be too liberal for many, but I would never doubt their honesty....the accusation that they are money grubbers is just silly and no one that knows them would believe such a thing.
hmmm, we know who the chief accuser is...and his minions follow his lead.
Has anon 11.02 ever been in CGI? I doubt it.
ReplyDelete11.02PM
ReplyDeleteBeing liberal and being honest don't exactly go together.
yes, anon 11:02 has been in CGI, many years ago.
ReplyDeleteI suspect the "MONEY MONEY MONEY" guy is one who left to follow Ted.
5.49 PM
ReplyDeleteYour original comment is typically said by a certain type of person, with a
certain unchristian attitude. Unless you are a teenager, you should know better.
Had to go back a few months to find context on why this would be an issue. Someone called it back in July.
ReplyDeletehttp://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2017/07/cem-vultures-are-circling.html
(Also, there's a typo in the post title.)
Oh my, that is quite a prophetic post to read. Thank you for providing that. Happy to see this subject back on topic instead of the men as usual making everything about themselves. Wasn't this originaly about Mrs. Dart and her insistence that Mr. Watkins never return to CEM?
ReplyDelete