Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders

Thursday, October 5, 2017

Prophecy Fails--Don't Live For It



One of the hallmark traits of most Fundamentalist Christians is their obsession with Bible Prophecy. Prophecy has a rather mystical draw to it and implies that the future is not so unknowable after all. Most humans spend their waking time either in the past feeling angry or in speculation of the future feeling anxious. It goes with not having the ability to live the real day one is currently experience. Many Christians have raised knowing the future to an art form and have learned that it is also quit profitable for the church in keeping members in line with fear, anxiety and a perverse kind of hope.
Bible prophecy and making it the center of one's life, reading the newspaper as one would the Bible, is a slippery slope and a very negative way to live one's life.

With enough study, one can learn that there are other explanations for that which many hold so near and dear as predictions of things that will happen "shortly" in the future. No one seems to think that "shortly" for whoever really wrote Revelation has now been over Two Thousand Years! I hate to think what "I'll be back later" would mean!

We have learned to develop the bad habit of reading Paul's predications of "time is short" with the same generous deference to the fact that short for Paul never really quite worked out for him either. We all know the cycle Paul went through of telling the Church to be ready, act as if you had no family and support the Church, to his final realization that "oh well, I fought a good fight, it was fun while it lasted, I was wrong... I still win... see ya."

On the other hand, we have areas of scripture that have always been used as prophecy which, to me, are simply not and never were intended to be by the original authors.

Isaiah 7 is an example of such a use of OT scripture by NT authors. This virgin birth prophecy ranks as one of the most questionable uses of scripture Matthew used to tell his story of Jesus birth. Matthew had a habit of mining the OT for anything that seemed like it fit the story he wanted to tell about Jesus. When one examines the OT context, we have to conclude that, that at least in it's original meaning, it was never meant to have the meaning Matthew assigned it. In fact, in its original context, it has absolutely nothing to do with prophecy but is merely a historical account of events going on at the time. It was never viewed as a prophecy of the birth circumstances of either the Jewish Messiah or Jesus until Matthew mined it for it's story telling value to his perspective. Matthew took the parts that fit his story but left out parts of that same story in Isaiah that obviously made no sense to his perspective on Jesus. If you simply look at Matthew's accounts of Jesus birth story, it is easy to see he cobbled it together in the style of the day from OT scriptures and not real events that he knew of. It is not my point to explain all this here, and I have touched on it in past columns.

Another aspect of "prophecy" we miss is that much of what the COGs use to promote their urgency upon the membership is probably prophecy written after the fact, which makes it really non-prophecy.

Either the book of Daniel was written during the time of the events recorded, 585 BC, or as many scholars now feel, it was written much later in the 160's BC to encourage the Maccabeans in their revolt against Rome. It was written AFTER all the events prophesied took place, which is why Daniel 11 is so specific. Daniel 12 then becomes rather generic because after the rise of Rome, the authors didn't really know the rest of the story much after the specifics of the 160's ended.

The point is that we all know that OUR lives were lived, and many still live their lives out, linking Daniel to Matthew 24, which also was written to address issues now long past from our times.

Again it is not my purpose to prove that to you, but I have accepted that much of what we call history prophesied is really "prophecy" historicized, or the conforming of later writings to fit events as they had already occurred. If the detail of Daniel 11 is the kind of thing that is able to be locked in stone for future fulfillment, then we as humans have no choice in the part we have to play in the game as it is already decided for us evidently down to the details. It's a philosophical problem to me about choices and free will.

Modern Tyre
Took a licking-Kept on Ticking

Other problem with prophecy is that they simply didn't come true. We all were groomed with the fantastic story of the fall of Tyre and how it would be scraped bare never to be inhabited etc. The problem is it wasn't and the city of Tyre existed in NT times and does to this day. The Tyranians rebuffed Nebuchadnezzar and only succumbed to Alexander the Great, yet still exists. It's a cop out to point out ancient ruins in the water as proof of prophecy fulfilled when the city called Tyre is just over your shoulder. These facts are easily found in a simple search on the topic.

Ezekiel's Failed Prophecies on Tyre and Egypt are examples.

Ezekiel made a prophecy that, at the time he wrote, seems most likely to be fulfilled. The prophet was writing, in 587 BC, at the time when Nebuchadnezzar was laying siege on Tyre. With such a powerful army like Nebuchadnezzar's, it was not surprising that Ezekiel prophesied the fall of Tyre to the Babylonian king.

Ezekiel 26:7-14: For thus says the Lord: "Behold I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a hosts of many soldiers. He will slay with the sword your daughters on the mainland; he will set up a siege wall against you. He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers...With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people with the sword and your mighty pillar will fall to the ground...they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses... I will make you a bare rock...you shall never be rebuilt, for I have spoken," says the Lord God.

The whole passage clearly prophesied the sack and complete destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar. However, the vivid description of the sack and fall of Tyre never happened. After a siege of thirteen years, until 573 BC, Nebuchadnezzar lifted his siege on Tyre and had to arrive at a compromised agreement. Thus Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre. Tyre was destroyed by Alexander the Great, 240 years later. And furthermore, despite the prophet, the city of Tyre was eventually rebuilt.
When Nebuchadnezzar broke the gates down he found the city almost empty. The majority of the people had moved by ship to an island about one half mile off the coast and fortified the city there. The mainland city was destroyed in 573, but the city of Tyre on the island remained a powerful city for several hundred years.

The implication of this paragraph is clear: that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed a major portion of Tyre. Tyre's main city was always on the island. The part of the city on the mainland is nothing more than a suburb. In other words, Nebuchadnezzar could achieve no more than take over a relatively minor part of the city. Furthermore it is obvious from the passage in Ezekiel that the complete destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar was prophesized. Ezekiel himself admitted that this prophecy was a mistake!

Ezekiel 29:17-20: ...the Lord God came to me: "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had performed against it... (Website: Rejection of Pascal's Wager)

The prophecies of both Isaiah and Ezekiel against Egypt also fell far short of reality in their "fulfillment."

"The prophet Isaiah, for instance, foretold the drying up of all the waters of the Egypt, and the destruction of all land used for plantation due to this drying up of the River Nile.
Isaiah 19:5-7: And the waters of the Nile will be dried up, and the river will be parched and dry; and its canal will become foul, and the branches of Egypt's Nile will diminish and dry up, reeds and rushes will rot away. There will be bare places by the Nile, on the brink of the Nile, and all that is sown by the Nile will dry up, be driven away, and be no more.

This part of Isaiah, widely accepted by scholars to be written around the eighth century BC, is about 2750 years old. And in all this period of two and three quarters millennia, this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled! Moreover it is clear from the context that Isaiah prophecy was meant for the Egypt of his time. For it was with that Egypt that Isaiah and his people had a grievance against, and the prophecy was a warning to them. Obviously this is a clear example of an unfulfilled prophecy." (Website: Rejection of Pascal's Wager)

I only point these out because so many would NEVER entertain the idea that any prophecy of the Bible didn't come true and will launch any number and kind of apologetic to defend what was said would be from what really occurred in history. Some of you are doing that right now.. :)

And now we again live in a time where "prophecy" can manipulate real lives. There are any number of those who just know how it will all be. The kings of all directions are doing this and that..."just read my article and see for yourself." Every world news event , like in the 60's or 70's or 80's, is worthy of note. The last Pope would be the last Pope and now this Pope will be the last Pope and I expect the next Pope will also be the last Pope. Meanwhile we get older but not the wiser for the experience. What we'll end up with is drawing every imagined prophetic event to ourselves in reality as some government leaders even seem to base policy on "what the Bible says." It is very possible to cause things to happen because one expects them to happen. The problem is you end up with all the damage and none of the salvation. In short, an end of the world scenario can be acted out based on false subconscious beliefs and yet still you end up with no Second Coming, World Tomorrow or Kingdom of God. You end up screwed up.

So why might it be better not to LIVE your actual life around the alleged reality and truth of prophecy and the "imminent" return of Jesus which has been imminent now for a couple thousand years?


I've been there, I've done this. I've lived my real life ahead of my actual life while it quietly slipped by. I've made life decisions in the past based on a preoccupation with the future. I've also let a lot of precious life time go by thinking about things that proved to be untrue and teaching things that weren't. I thought they were, but when one realizes they aren't, it would be hoped one would stop that. I did.

I've been there, I've done this. I've lived my real life ahead of my actual life while it quietly slipped by. I've made life decisions in the past based on a preoccupation with the future. I've also let a lot of precious life time go by thinking about things that proved to be untrue and teaching things that weren't.

Basing a life on what may or may not happen in the future, and Bible types did it all the time and were wrong too, is to miss the present. And whether one admits it or not , the present is all we ever actually really have to work with. Your kids really are their ages they are NOW and one does not postpone making memories with them now because the future is a more serious consideration. They will NEVER again be kids, and you and I will never again be any younger.

For Paul, to live might be loss and to die gain, but that theological rhetoric and let's face it, Paul never, from what we can note, ever had to enjoy his children, mate or life in the now. He was in the imminent future right up until it bit him in the bum. He may have had the power to have a wife, great word there, "power", but I bet he was basically not one the women would flock to to begin with.

If you are still in a COG, does your Sabbath experience, weekends that your kids also have to call their free time, only consist for them of coming, sitting and going? How often we forget that the parents generally got to make their life decisions but then deny them to their children. I know, "raise up your child in the way he should go.." Problem I have is with the "should go."

I used to take my kids to the local zoo on Sabbaths after church. This was in the 1970's. I have never regretted spending MANY a Friday night with them when little swimming at the YMCA and stopping at Dunkin Donuts on the way home. That ritual of the "now" is far more remembered than any sermon I may have given that day. But for some, depending on their prophecy laden pastor, life is just one big "around the corner", "just a little longer" and never ending "gun lap." I had kidded for years that we have been in the gun lap so often, we run the risk of running out of bullets. Little did I know that was a prophecy that would come true!

Prophecy means NOTHING to me at this point in my life. It may mean a lot to some of you depending on who is feeding the need to know what I don't think we can know in this world. We can hide behind the idea that we know God is doing this or that, but that's pretty iffy knowing.

Whatever your position, at least know that even the Bible got it wrong at times, not matter what your pastor says or how your church motivates you with prophecy to live on the edge of your chair, just a bit ahead of the now, in somewhat a fearful or at least anxious, "what's going to happen" state. Isaiah was wrong, Ezekiel was wrong, Paul was wrong and yes, even Jesus was mistaken in his own perceptions of his own experience. That's another story.

If we can be wise enough to see that even Bible prophecies indeed have failed, that some prophecies are not really prophecies , and that reading the newspaper as if it were the Bible come to life is not wise, we might actually have a life in the now we can say was a real life. A life lived in anticipation of some alleged future is not a real life. It's disillusionment in the making.

I'm going to go out on my own limb of prophecy here. I predict that all the leaders of any COG who promote prophecy first and have not really ever given a sermon using the ideas in this article, will live out their lives and come to the same conclusions Paul did. They kept a Faith and now it's time to pass on.

I predict that Churches like PCG and RCG will pass from the scene when their me only leadership does. One can only get so much mileage out of playing the sermons on world events by those who died years ago. Yet I guess we do that when repeating Paul's admonitions of the shortness of time forgetting it is long since past when he felt it would end. We do it when we say "Behold I come quickly" when that quickly was over 2000 years ago.

I predict that WCG  will become a meaningless footnote to the Christian experience. I mean why belong to something in California that is everywhere you live? What holds scattered groups together is being special and having special insights into "The Middle East, What Next." And "Will You Be in the Place of Safety." Don't get me started!

I predict more people will avail themselves of the Internet to do their own studies and come to their own conclusions. I always had to ask a pastor because somehow I thought he must know. After all, he was an "expert" on the Bible. Now you can ask lots of pastors and scholars and even those who used to be and no longer can abide it.

 I predict the era of Guru's will end for those who learn to think and search a matter out from many and not just one source. I would hope that people in congregations dominated by one grand idea spoken by one grand human being will finally wake up and not care if asking a question or questioning a sermon or concept gets them kicked out. Being kicked out, terminated, fired, marginalized or blocked at the door can be the greatest freedom you'll ever experience if you ever choose to reclaim your own brain and perspectives. Remember...ANY TIME you are listening to another human being tell you how it is, and your get that little "uh oh" in the tummy....listen to it! It's the truth trying to have a chat with you.

I predict many will keep on believing the unbelievable because that's what humans do to keep fear and uncertainty at bay. I do it, you do it.

Don't live in anticipation of possible future. We can't know and no one has ever gotten it right. All prophecies about the Second Coming of Jesus have failed to date 100% ! Don't miss your NOW for that idea that just around the corner, me and mine will be justified in forgetting to enjoy the one life we know we NOW have on this planet. It's a dangerous world to be sure, this does not mean it is the result of prophets who themselves missed their own marks way back

A life based on Prophecy as interpreted by someone who thinks they know and enforced upon one as fact , just wait and see, is going to be a stressed one at best. You are also going to have to give up a few bucks hard earned to keep the mythology and the grand poopa in prediction mode. Remember there is Addiction to Predictions. Don't allow yourself to wake up decades older with grown kids having regrets you didn't go to the zoo, go for a Friday night family swim or stop at Dunkin Donuts in their jammies on the way home....even on the Sabbath.  No God or Angel is taking names.

36 comments:

  1. You may not be a Worldwide Church of God minister anymore, but you are still long-winded. Your point about the futility of people attempting to live their lives around prophecy is a good one, but I've noticed that you almost always turn your pieces into attacks on faith (usually faith in Jesus, God, the Bible, things spiritual in general or some combination of all of the above).
    As someone who was also hoodwinked by Herbert Armstrong and his Worldwide Church of God, I empathize with the hurt and disappointment that you suffered. I am also in agreement with you that those of us who have transitioned out of that mental straitjacket have an obligation to help those who may still be trapped in it. However, that does not give you or me the right to say to anyone that the conclusions which we have reached about our individual experiences are valid for everyone.
    The fact is that turning one's back on his/her faith is NOT the only option here! Many of us have rejected Herbert W. Armstrong and his teachings while continuing to hold God, Jesus Christ and the Bible in high regard.
    Paul was indeed a quirky kind of guy; but he is also the one who wrote that love never fails, but that prophecies would fail (I Corinthians 13:8). He went on to explain: "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" (verses 9-10).
    With your background, I'm sure that you are aware that many of the prophecies of the Bible have many different interpretations. Many of us know that some of the prophecies which are used to point to the future were meant for the day and age in which they were written and have found whatever fulfillment they were intended to have in the past. Likewise, there are a large number of folks (myself among them) who recognize that books like Revelation fall into a category of writings known as Apocalyptic Literature, and that it is both foolish and dangerous to interpret their symbolism in the context of modern headlines or to take them literally.
    By the way, isn't Jesus Christ purported to have said "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36) My point is that we can't lay Herbie's timelines at Christ's feet (or all of the other folks who have ignored this statement).
    I would say that the problem is not one of spending more time in the present but of using the tools of the past and future to make the present better. After all, an inadequate understanding of the past and the future is what snared many of us into accepting Herbie's malarkey in the first place. At its core, prophecy was meant to change behavior in the present.
    It may be apocryphal, but I like the statement attributed to Martin Luther (of Protestant Reformation fame): "Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree."
    Christ hasn't returned yet, but that doesn't mean he never will. For many of us, we are content to live our lives trying to imitate his behavior and follow the teachings attributed to him. Nothing may happen during our lifetimes. Nothing may happen in a thousand more years. And, if nothing ever does happen, what's that to you or me? There is either value in living a life of love, compassion and kindness to others or there isn't.

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  2. There hs never been a Church of God minister, evangelist, apostle, lay member or self-appointed prophets like Bob Thiel or James Malm who have ever told the truth and made a correct prophecy. Not a single one.

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  3. MJ, I appreciate your comment and it is not my intent to attack faith but to encourage a proper study and perspective on things that not only WCG and the splinters get so wrong, but what so many literalists Christians get wrong. Fundamentalists are making fools of religion and undercutting progress in understanding with the clinging myths and fables or at best horribly misapplied views.

    My being a former WCG minister has little to do with where I have come in my understanding of Christian and Biblical origins as well as science well done. I would have come to these conclusions of mine no matter where I had ended up in religion. Had I gone to the Methodist or Presbyterian seminary I had been accepted to but choose WCG over them, I’d still have come to my current understanding of the problems with scripture and fundamentalism. I probably would have been taught it in the Methodist or Presbyterian Seminary without having to have gone through so much drama in the first place and postponed it all until my midlife. A good seminary will stand a local church kid on his head pluggin his ears I in a real first year Bible class.

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  4. PS. I completely agree in living a life of love, compassion and kindness. I believe I did it aplenty when pastoring and am that kind of man to my core to this day. My apparent long windedness is a function of teaching I suppose. On this topic, it takes time to develop the concept with examples from the scripture. My musing towards the end are just that and based on my own regrets over living in the past where I found my anger issues and depression because I felt I had no right to express them or the price of doing so was too high at the time. The future was always , and still is , because of WCG affiliations of the past a cause of anxiety over future things. But as one Julianof Norwich noted, “all shall be well, and all shall be well , and all manner of things shall be well.”

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  5. I echo everything you wrote. So much of my life was also wasted chasing this madness. But, I guess I had to go through it to be where I am today.

    Allen C. Dexter

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  6. don't be so quick to dismiss prophecy....what we were forced to swallow has ZERO relevance to the facts on the ground today:

    1. King of the North: USA/EU/UN/NATO/Israel (Danial 11:40-44, Rev 13)BEAST POWER
    2. King of the South: the Levant nations and Islam
    3. Kings of the East: Russia/China, BRICS nations

    You can watch this on the nightly news unfolding...its where the "COG" losers are wrong and are blinded to reality due to their BLIND obedience to a failed man, HWA.
    I've made video after video in my bible studies on this exact topic for over 12 years now...If you doubt me, just visit Dr Paul Craig Robert's site and read his articles on the USA/NATO/Israel vs. Russia and China....don't be afraid.

    You can click on m y name for contact info and my website

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  7. From memory, the present city called Tyre is many miles from the ancient city of Tyre. Such Mickey mouse research is disappointing.
    You can only enjoy your kids by breaking the Sabbath. Yeah sure.

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  8. When I was in the church I rarely studied prophecy! I was never into prophecy and my main focus when I was attending church was simply to be a good person and treat others with as much respect as I possibly could. Actually, I don't think I knew that many people in the WCG congregation who were hung up on prophecy.

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  9. Dennis, Thank you for your kind words. Like you, I love paleontology, accept evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life on this planet and see the errors and contradictions inherent in Scripture. Unlike you, I still believe in God (although my view of God is much more expansive than it used to be), that Jesus Christ was sent by that God to save the world and that there is worth in studying the Bible. I understand why you have reached the conclusions that you have reached, and I respect your opinion and your efforts to help others. I was merely trying to point out that the conclusions that you and I have reached are not necessarily the conclusions that others will reach on their journeys. In the same way that a love and study of the Bible does not always result in a Christian, a love of science, the scientific method and rational thinking does not always result in an Atheist.

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  10. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

    And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

    But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. Isaiah 11:11-14 fulfilled just after ww2



    They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

    For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah. Psalms 83:4-8 also happened during and even after ww2

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world

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    Replies
    1. Congratulations, your failing grade in Biblical history has been recorded.

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    2. typical: unable to refute the evidence, so you resort to making vain, irrelevent statements, offering nothing to substantiate your point of view; fact is your only desire is to be contrary for the sake of your own pre conceived notions...

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    3. Nope. I'd prefer to exhort you to think beyond the false history you were fed by Armstrongism. Multiple prophets envisioned the same event. Its all over the OT. Think!... if you can.

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    4. so, you would prefer that i do what u tell me to do, even though you have yet to offer any proof that what you are saying is rooted in fact? you have made declarations and proclaimations, essentially saying: trust me, i know what i am talking about! you say things like "think for yourself" when i have shown you i have done research into the matter, hence i have thought for my self: frankly what you really mean is "think like me"...

      and you still have yet to address the facts themselves, but instead choose to ignore them simply cuz you dont like hwa. well i didnt like hwa either, but never let that fact cause me to shut my eyes to the Truth...

      it is a fact that God did gather jews back to the land of palestine, even from cush (ethiopia); it is a fact that the british, i.e., ephraim, did eventually allow it; it is a fact that the jews dominated jordan, i.e., ammon, and took half of jerusalem unconditionally; it is a fact that the jews oppress the palestenians...and it is a fact that all these things were prophesied in the book of Isaiah...

      it is a fact that during and after ww2, the arabs, with the help of the germans, conspired to destroy the jews, just as Psalms 83 said they would: Psalms 83 explicitly said that assur would be helping them, and the fact is that hitler met personally with arab leaders in support of their common goal, and the arab terrorist movement of the 60s and 70s had its roots in nazi military training...

      your proclaimation has not offered anything in contrast to these facts; you have merely done what none believers typically do: say the opposite, offer no supporting evidence, and attempt to make those who do not believe you out to be less than yourselves...

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    5. I do not know whether you have or not, but you appear to be drawing from old BI literature. Which is hardly a crime, and I dont know that you're aware of it - except that it leads you into these false suppositions based on a poor reading of history. I know because I was once there as well. It was quite surprisingly to read the Biblical account as history, alongside what else we know about the period.
      Unfortunately, its also very plain that simply demonstrating the exact flaws of your pet theory would produce so much butthurt as to render it ineffective. So instead, I'll just say this much - remember HWA claiming "THE BIIIIIIIBLE INTERPRETS ITS OWN SYMBOLS"? Thats also true for much of its history as well. No need to try to find farfetched modern equivalents for "Judah", "Ephraim", "Assyria" et cetera, when they have a clear meaning in the context of a prophet's writings.

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    6. frankly, you wrote a lot, but you have said nothing that refutes the bible; you brought no evidence to bear to support your contentions, you merely have offered rhetoric: you have this "believe me cuz i said so" approach, yet you have the nerve to be critical of hwa?

      you say what i wrote was flawed yet you cannot say why; and the reason you cannot say why is because for years people like you have practiced humiliating cogers just for the sake of humiliation, not because what you were doing was rooted in substance...

      you cannot refute my statements because you dont have any facts to do so, so you merely throw things out hoping they will stick...

      while people like you have been scoffing and in denial, the jews have lived by, and drawn strength from Scripture, like that Promise made to them in Isaiah (not to mention the Promises of how they would dominate the world), for scores of generations, and we who are Faithful do also wait on the fulfilling of the Word of God...and yes, your scoffing indeed was also prophesied...

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    7. Funny, I said the answers were in the Bible itself, and you think I'm trying to refute the Bible? Well, we now know your reading comprehension is not particularly good either.
      I already prophesied the rest of the butthurt you spewed. ;)

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    8. well, its not easy reading a post laced with vile, nonsensical gibberish like "butthurt", etc., all written in a single paragraph...


      but regardless of you continual attempts to deflect from the point, prophesy is being fulfilled and will be long after our insignificant lives expire...

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  11. Prophecy = leverage. Plain and simple.

    It is very effective, however, just as with a joke told by a professional stand-up comedian, presentation and timing are everything. HWA apparently had those. None of his imitators do.

    The difference between prophecy and a joke is that nobody was ever entrapped or had their lives co-opted by a joke. Both lose their impact when told over and over and over.

    BB

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  12. It was written AFTER all the events prophesied took place, which is why Daniel 11 is so specific. Daniel 12 then becomes rather generic because after the rise of Rome, the authors didn't really know the rest of the story much after the specifics of the 160's ended.

    So literary fraud is not limited to the Christians

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  13. The purpose of prophecy is personal reflection, self awareness and repentance.

    It is conditional and shows the fruits of consequence. It doesnt have to happen the way it is laid out, but instead, shows a potential timeline that can happen, should one choose, or if society chooses to take that timeline alternative.

    Prophecy is not for trying to "time" or benefit from the knowledge in a form of "insider trading" for personal benefit or special Gnosticism.

    No, I see it as something to keep you on course, and self aware.

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  14. You never hear anyone try to match up Isaiah 19 to any current event. Probably because of verse 25.

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  15. Anon 5:28 "From memory"? Bad memory.

    It is not many miles away. Modern Tyre sits on top of Ancient Tyre. The Prophecy failed and was merely hyperbole of the times.

    Tyre (Arabic: صور‎‎, Ṣūr; Phoenician: 𐤑𐤅𐤓, Ṣur; Hebrew: צוֹר‎, Tsor; Tiberian Hebrew צֹר‎, Ṣōr; Akkadian: 𒀫𒊒, Ṣurru; Greek: Τύρος, Týros; Turkish: Sur; Latin: Tyrus, Armenian Տիր [Dir]), sometimes romanized as Sour, is a city in the South Governorate of Lebanon. There were approximately 117,000 inhabitants in 2003.[1] However, the government of Lebanon has released only rough estimates of population numbers since 1932, so an accurate statistical accounting is not possible.[2] Tyre juts out from the coast of the Mediterranean and is located about 80 km (50 mi) south of Beirut. The name of the city means "rock"[3] after the rocky formation on which the town was originally built. The adjective for Tyre is Tyrian, and the inhabitants are Tyrians.

    Tyre is an ancient Phoenician city and the legendary birthplace of Europa and Dido (Elissa). Today it is the fourth largest city in Lebanon after Beirut, Tripoli and Sidon.[4] and houses one of the nation's major ports. Tourism is a major industry. The city has a number of ancient sites, including its Roman Hippodrome which was added to UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites in 1979

    Tyre originally consisted of two distinct urban centres, Tyre itself, which was on an island just off shore, and the associated settlement of Ushu on the adjacent mainland. Alexander the Great connected the island to the mainland by constructing a causeway during his siege of the city,[7] demolishing the old city to reuse its cut stone.[8]

    The original island city had two harbours, one on the south side and the other on the north side of the island. It was the two harbours that enabled Tyre to gain the maritime prominence that it did; the harbour on the north side of the island was, in fact, one of the best harbours on the eastern end of the Mediterranean. The harbour on the south side has silted over, but the harbour on the north side (see Tyre harbor photo the right) is still in use.[9]

    In ancient times, the island-city of Tyre was heavily fortified and the mainland settlement, originally called Ushu (later called Palaetyrus, meaning "Old Tyre," by the ancient Greeks) was actually more like a line of suburbs than any one city and was used primarily as a source of water and timber for the main island city.[10] Josephus records that the two fought against each other on occasion,[11] but most of the time, they supported one another because they both benefited from the island city's wealth from maritime trade and the mainland area's source of timber, water and burial grounds.
    A simple Wikipedia look.

    My boys speak very fondly of those days of Sabbath evening swims at the YMCA and their stop for a donut in their pajamas. They speak fondly of trips to the zoo when dad didn't have to run all over creation pastoring 2 or 3 congregations on the Sabbath...too much work. They are successful men today with their beautiful children and have recently shared with me , now that they have reached middle age how they understand me now more than ever and appreciate how I went about things in their youth best I could being watched by the Church Gestapo. In the 70's I also made sure they had their shots...does that help?? :)

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  16. Thanks Miller J. We aren't that much different. It's hard and generally inaccurate to get a take on someone just via writing. Probably impossible actually. If there is a God, he/she has been playing games with me all my life if we go by the outcomes.

    The theological problem I and other's find with understanding that all life, including humans, evoled over the past 600 million years out of 14.6 Billions since the formation of the solar system is that it eliminates the story of "The Fall" and thus the blame of "Original Sin" being put on everyone from then on who actually did nothing . The idea that I am a scumbag because of Original Sin is stupid. Since there was no literal "First Adam" then the "Second Adam" is moot. I don't think humanity should be punished for something that didn't happen.

    These doctrines evolved themselves when make Jesus a god solved on problem and caused another theologically. Each solution to the problem caused and created another theological problem. We see this in the twisted meanderings of trying to explain the concept of "fully God and fully man" and the Trinity in a way that doesn't strike us as just ridiculous. Calling it "a mystery" is not a good enough answer etc.

    Anyway...

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  17. True Bread:

    None of that can be proven. It is speculation based on our times and people of all times have plugged in their various current events to match it to their times to no avail.


    How can Israel, located in the Levant be both King of the North and King of the South? How can BRICS. Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa be the King of the East? Brazil is West of the Levant Israel which is both North and South of it, and South Africa is due South of the King of the North Israel and King of the South Israel which is not East at all??????

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  18. I suppose the Earth being round provides endless definitions of what is NSE and W of what. Depends on how far you go around it to bump into ourselves again.

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    1. A lot of this stuff can't be accurately determined thousands of years after the fact. Entire clans or tribes have been assimilated into other cultures, and are no longer able to be distinguished individually. I knew from junior high school on that the USA was a meltingpot from its inception. But, I had no idea until years later the extent to which Europe, and specifically England, had been a melting pot due to migrations and invasions, mixing with their native peoples.

      Someone claimed to have secret, ancient, insider information, and our parents, or we ourselves bought into it. Now, it might have been one thing if we had all just said "Well! Now, isn't that interesting?". But, we didn't just make a logical restriction such as that. Prophecy, and one person's speculation on it became the dominant centerpiece of our lives, with impending punishment for failing to abide by picked and chosen legalism trumping Christian values and character.

      It would have been less life-shattering and harmful to have been lied to about Santa Claus!

      BB

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  19. Connie
    Potential timeline? Psalms 83 is very specific, and it has never occurred in the past.

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  20. Dennis,
    Since you graciously offered some insight into your thinking, I will offer some into mine. Please understand that this is not offered in the hopes of convincing you or anyone else that my conclusions are correct, but in the interest of explaining why your theological problem is not mine. As such, I will not burden you with my reasons for accepting the existence of God. Hence, my remarks referenced below are premised on the existence of a God.
    If you're interested, you can check out these posts when you get a chance:
    http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2015/07/god-adam-eve-and-science.html
    http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2015/04/is-universe-organized-to-produce-life.html
    http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2014/11/god-and-evolution.html
    http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2017/08/a-closer-look-at-christs-atonement.html

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  21. Hi Dennis...thanks for responding..

    I'm not trying to make "prophecies"...just going by what I read in scripture and what the facts are on the ground.

    I think its pretty evident that the USA/NATO/Israel block is wreaking havoc on the earth, especially after 9-11....and even before. Desert Storm 1 is the perfect example.

    The "G7" is the seven heads of the beast in Rev 13, and the "Club of Rome" has the planet divided into ten zones, corresponding to the ten horns of the beast. It's obvious to most that the Catholic church and the pope is the false prophet. My guess is that Trump is the antichrist.

    Israel, totally misnamed and named so for propaganda, is in the Levant but not part of it...its not Islamic. Ask any politician who runs this country and they will all confess its Israel. You can read all about it on Dr Paul Craig Roberts blog, as well as what the USA/NATO/Israel has in store for Russia and China.

    At Armageddon, the King of the North (USA/NATO/Israel) will face off with the Kings of the East (Russia/China) and whatever other nations align with that block.

    The King of the North was/is ROME. There will be four ROMAN empires over time:
    1. Caesars
    2. Napoleon
    3. Hitler
    4. Trump (USA/NATO/Israel)

    The USA is the fourth and final version of the ROMAN empire. The Phoenix is the continuous symbol of Rome and is on the back of your one dollar bill...the antichrist will be the next and last Caesar.


    I recommend you search YT for Wesley Clark's video "Seven nations in five years" to see just how this was all planned long prior to 9-11, in "The Project for the New American Century". 9-11 was clearly the needed "New Pearl Harbor" the neo-cons wanted to pressure the USA into Middle East wars...all for the benefit of the so-called nation of "Israel"...

    NATO's continuing military campaigns in the ME is fulfilling Dan 11:40-44 and I am expecting a full out blitzkrieg of the area, probably under Trump...thereby eliminating the King of the South (Islamic nations)

    Then we will have to watch for the construction of the final temple...probably in the City of David, where it always stood.

    Once again, just going by the facts that we can watch unfolding on the nightly news...

    Hope this helps... Todd

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    1. It doesn't help at all, TB. You've just edited out some of the names and faces HWA originally guessed from the news, and have inserted your own guesses. Same old crap!

      Tell your mother you need to have your mouth washed out with soap.

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  22. Dennis, you are eloquent, you are witty, and you are thoughtful, but I wonder if you're right. Not about the danger of being attached to prophecy, but about much else on which you commented.

    You regret having spent a big portion of your life focused on the future. Jesus never told you to do that. "Consider the lilies of the field...." His teaching was to live in the moment. Not FOR the moment, btw, but IN the moment....there is a difference.

    Like Connie wrote, the value of prophecy lies in its motivation to repentance. I agree that the Armstrong churches of God gave and give too much attention to the predictive function of prophecy. I generally found prophecy discussions boring except when they informed me how to live.

    I don't know that "most people" are as depressed and anxious as you seem to think they are. A lot of them are. Those ones haven't listened closely to the Bible which has taught me that I always have in my here and now everything I need to be happy. I don't need to focus on the dead past or on the uncertain future, but on living the PRESENT....which is what you are saying too.

    As to Isaiah 7, on the face of it, there might seem to be no reason to apply it as the New Testament does.....but verse 14 is referring to a virgin. Yes, I know that almah (עַלְמָה)can mean a young woman OR a virgin, but early Hebrew scholars took it to mean "virgin" which they showed by rendering it as parthenos in all six of the early translations of Isaiah into Greek, including the LXX, and parthenos ONLY means virgin. Further, and more convincing in my estimate, is the fact that in the Hebrew text of Isaiah 7 is encoded the word מָשִׁ֫יחַ (mashiach). Starting with the mem (מָ) in almah and counting three times 17 letters from right to left spells מָשִׁ֫יחַ Now I realize that it sounds like I just walked out of the Twilight Zone, but I find it significant that scholars before Matthew understood Isaiah 7:14 to be referring to virgin and מָשִׁ֫יחַ is linked with almah in the Hebrew text.

    Now let's look at the Tyre problem. Ramesses III of Egypt is credited with declaring "I slew the Denyon in their islands, while the Tjekker and Philistines were made ashes. The Sherden and the Washesh of the sea were made non-existent, captured all together and brought on captivity to Egypt like the sands of the shore." He said that the Sherden and the Washesh were made non-existent, and then he explains his meaning: they had gone into captivity. This thing about Tyre not existing again is, imo, another example of this kind of ancient hyperbolic trash talk. We have to read ancient writings in their ancient contexts.

    I could keep going, but I don't want MJ to find me long-winded. Dennis, you've thrown the baby out with the bath water. "Let God be true but every man a liar." You were told long ago that you might one day ask "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

    My friend, you have intellect, you have street smarts, you have passion and COMpassion. My, but you do have a lot to offer. Seriously. But what you also need is to be able to consider what you have instead of what you lost.

    --- Gordon Feil (http://gordonfeil.blogspot.ca/)

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  23. Thanks Gordon for your input. I agree that much of prophecy is hyperbole such as in “we’ll beat the shit out of them” which means simply we’ll win. Much of prophecy is hyperbole such as Egypt never again being inhabited or the Nile drying up. It just means we win. Revelation is much like this with it’s 200 million, nice even numbers, army. It just means a lot.

    Ezekiel 29:17-20 is pretty clear that Nebuchadnezzar , by Ezekiel’s admission, no matter how hard he worked at it, did NOT succeed to overthrow Tyre. It says that right in the text. Perhaps an editorial edition after the fact to explain why it was still around . It certainly is a prophecy fulfillment people argue about and God did not leave no doubt it was gone never to be inhabited. He left it iffy at best.

    Matthew’s entire birth narrative of Jesus , Virgin Birth and all is woven from OT scriptures that he makes mean what they never meant. It is the writing style called Midrash and we’d not take it very seriously today as historical writing. It is “as was written in the scriptures” to which I am going to give a bit of a twist for my needs to.” If your read the 8 I believe. “And thus it was fulfilled..” tidbits Matthew writes about Jesus miraculous birth, you see that NONE of the OT scriptures in their context remotely mean or are talking about what Matthew made them mean for his story of Jesus birth. He put a spin on them that today we’d simply not accept as credible meaning but it was the style of the day. Long topic but it is called Midrash and often used by authors who wanted to write what happened when they actually didn’t know what happened and needed a story to base it on in the OT.

    I don’t personally believe I have thrown out any baby with the bath water, however, and noticing that “soon”, “the hour now is”, of things which must shortly come to pass and behold I come quickly now shows those prophecies to be false after 2000 years does not make me a scoffer. Back then they would have called one a scoffer because they just knew it was just around the corner and they would fine out how wrong they were to question it. But alas...nuttin’. To solve the obvious problem that soon did not really mean soon..the author of Peter comes up with the idea that a day is as a thousand years...don’t you know! But that is how religion does it. They don’t say oops...wrong. They add some detail they forgot to tell you about originally when they had hope but then keep hope alive by modifying the concept of soon. Soon now means 1000, 2000, 3000....years or days. I don’t buy it.

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  25. Tell your mother you need to have your mouth washed out with soap.
    October 7, 2017 at 8:53 PM

    I was holding my mother's hand when she died 2.5 years ago, you POS....why don't you go troll somewhere else...

    HWA didn't live long enough to understand the current situation I am describing today, so your baseless claim is nonsensical...get lost

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