Who will God accept? The judgmental Armstrongite or the Protestant?
Who will God accept? The judgmental Armstrongite or the Protestant?
In corner number one, we have a staunch believer in the doctrines of Herbert Armstrong. In this man's life, he has attended Sabbath Services every day in his life nearly without fail. He has kept the Feast in the past 70 years in the Dells, the Poconos, Pensacola, Vail, even Pasadena. He knows every Dwight hymn by heart. He attends every Night to be remembered with the rest of the pillars of the Congregation. He takes notes of every Sabbath Service. He has read the Bible from front to back, which is marginalized with every color highlighter and marginal note you can imagine. He arrives at Church early, and is the last to leave. He is charismatic. But. His home-life is a different story. He is a bully. Argumentative. He thinks of his wife and daughters as his personal property to do with as he pleases. He will not be talked down to. He is the absolute ruler in his home, and is totally devoid of emotion. He mocks and sneers at anyone who does not worship as he does. He condemns anyone who is in "the world" as lost and of Satan. He can't stand any mention of love, or of Jesus -calling such things emotional love-love mamby-pansy religion. He believes women are to remain silent, seen, but not heard. He has a violent temper, and a mind of rage. He believes that the rule of Law is paramount in everything. He shows little mercy, and has a black-and-white mentality. He believes that the mentally ill are cursed, and avoids doctors because they are evil in his mind. He is crotchety, but assured that upon his death, he will sleep and wake as one of the very few righteous enough to be in the Holy First Resurrection.
In corner number two, we have a typical American Protestant. She does not have much, but she starts every day with prayer and hymns, but she does love a good rock and roll song. She gets the kids off to school - and has an argument with her husband. Her mouth is not always perfect. She can drop an F-bomb at a stubbed toe like nothing flat. But under her breath, she apologizes to Jesus and says she will try to do better with great remorse. She goes to work, talks about sports or the latest TV show. Some of her jokes are coarse and dirty. But in her mind, she remembers that she is to keep her mind clean and on things that are pure and peaceable. She stops, and goes back to her cubicle. She doesn't go to church every day, but when she does she thanks God for his amazing grace and for giving his life in thanksgiving, grateful to be able to learn, grow, and try. She goes to Church on a Sunday morning - she had a bad morning, got into another fight with her husband, lost it with her arguing young children, and almost stayed home because she was in such a bad mood. But she remembered how God moved in miraculous ways to bring her out of the crisis of her life into the shadow under His wings, and decided to go this time - but she knows she is not judged or lost her salvation if she does not go to Church (which happens alot with the pressures of parenting and in not the best marriage). When Easter comes, she thanks God for Jesus who, around that time of year, died and is risen and lives in those who believe. When Christmas comes, her mind is always on the eating and the gifts and yes, some commercialism - but she always stops to thank God for the fact he was born that she, like Him - may live. It's not a perfect life, but it's a life made perfect only through Christ who lives in her, and she never loses sight of that fact regardless of how the pious and holier-than-thous view her. She rests in the Lord, without worry of losing her salvation.
Which one of these extreme examples do you think finds favor in God? Supporting arguments? Counterpoints?
"If YOU were sent by God to determine who shall enter HIS Kingdom - which one of these two would you trust to rule and reign with Christ and exemplify His Kingdom?"
"If YOU were sent by God to determine who shall enter HIS Kingdom - which one of these two would you trust to rule and reign with Christ and exemplify His Kingdom?"
Discuss.
submitted by SHT
submitted by SHT
Neither.
ReplyDeleteThis is why some religions, such as Catholicism, have a concept akin to Purgatory or the White Throne Judgment, in which people who die in an unworthy state can come to worthiness.
Using that model, the first person in your example needs to learn how to embody the qualities Christ expects Christians to display as fruit of the Holy Spirit. The second person in your example needs to dispel the ignorance that is preventing her from more fully fulfilling God's will for her.
Christ never said that whitened sepulchers would enter His kingdom, nor would people whose beautiful houses were built on slippery sand. So, the answer to your question is: Neither
1.25 PM
ReplyDeleteWell said.
Whoever ask to make a decision that those which of the two individual with those character traits would God choose to enter into His kingdom doesn't understand what Christianity is created to do. The whole goal of Christianity call people join with Jesus Christ and receive the Holy Spirit to go through a transformation that be acceptable in an eternal kingdom with citizens that have the nature revealed in Jesus Christ. If there is no maturity it is obvious there is no growth and the indication is that the Holy Spirit was not working in the individual or they were not willing to give their life to God through Jesus Christ. If this is not understood I question the poster's motives. ASB
ReplyDeleteI would wonder if either of these hypothetical characters, as presented, has the Holy Spirit, but that’s not for me to judge.
ReplyDeleteThe classic WCG preached obedience to God (calling that legalism “love”) to the exclusion of love for fellow man. After having left the WCG in 1975, I was alarmed by the deplorable ethics I had absorbed from them as they related to outsiders. The ethics towards insiders weren’t all so wonderful either, but those of us who believe in self-punishing offenses can write that aspect off. At any rate, I found myself hard at work learning a much better set of ethics, as well as care and concern for others.
At the risk of being called a Prot-e-gal son, I’d have to say that I identify more with the Protestant lady, but she seems to be in the beginning stages of development. I know it’s almost a given that any example we would describe runs the danger of becoming a strawman, but in this case, there is some universality to these two completely different, but also typical attitudes. If I had to be a child or spouse in either environment, I’d pick the Protestant one. At least, you could thrive in that one, both physically and spiritually.
BB
The only person who enters will be David Pack, everyone else, because they failed to give him all their money, retirement, social security, and homes will not make it. Then who actually is number one will have to be decided. Will it be David Pack???
ReplyDeleteIf I were God I never would have come up with a plan that involved Prophets, Priests, Kings, Apostles, Witnesses or Elijahs and Zerubbabels as middlemen. I would simply show up and explain to everyone in every age (I am Eternal after all) what the deal is and how the program works. No doubts, no faith in the unseen. I'd be seen and heard and also not make such a big deal about being worshipped and adored.
ReplyDeleteSo both and neither because neither both nor neither would exist. They would all know me from the least to the Greatest because I actually showed up in person clearing up all questions and doubts as they arouse.
and too..I'd heal the sick both physically and mentally so they'd feel good about it all. Actually I'd fix the problem of sickeness both physical and mental to begin with so we're all on the same page, feeling good and eager to meet me and I them. I think I'd start my world tour in this age in Wadsworth or Edmond but maybe in Charlotte too.
ReplyDelete"
ReplyDeleteUsing that model, the first person in your example needs to learn how to embody the qualities Christ expects Christians to display as fruit of the Holy Spirit. The second person in your example needs to dispel the ignorance that is preventing her from more fully fulfilling God's will for her.
Christ never said that whitened sepulchers would enter His kingdom, nor would people whose beautiful houses were built on slippery sand. So, the answer to your question is: Neither"
Then neither should we judge those we don't know. These extreme examples don't give us enough information to ever begin to know their heart, or their stories. The information is too minimal. When we box God into a well defined box when the Human Element is way more than we could ever comprehend, our judgements become foolish and ignorant. This is one of the biggest things that needs to change in the hearts and minds of Armstrong's most fervent followers of his interpretations.
" If this is not understood I question the poster's motives. ASB"
ReplyDeleteAB, Twice, now, you have either judged me as not being a Christian or you question my motives. I understand your skepticism - but know what I am doing is challenging the common ideas and invoking some idea of critical thinking. Though I don't expect you to agree with my stance, or my posts - I can assure you my relationship with Christ is solid.
What you perceive my relationship with Christ is, is actually quite irrelevant.
Enjoy your day.
332 and 341 one in the same noted: "Then neither should we judge those we don't know. These extreme examples don't give us enough information to ever begin to know their heart, or their stories. The information is too minimal."
ReplyDeleteAB, Twice, now, you have either judged me as not being a Christian or you question my motives. I understand your skepticism - "
Not to worry. It's what some do as if they knew.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI will make this last comment and cease to comment in this blog. My impression is that the things that are discussed and the way they are discussed does more damage to a believer in Christ than it does in expanding the information the bible provides to the average Christian believer. That is what John says when warns about those who are aniti-christ. I could be wrong so I will leave it at that. ASB
ReplyDeleteOne of the criminals on a cross alongside Jesus conceded his (the criminal's) guilt. And yet, he recognized Jesus was the Christ and asked that He remember him when He comes to His Kingdom. Christ says that this criminal will be with Him in paradise.
ReplyDeleteIf you can proclaim Jesus as Lord (sincerely and humbly), you will be saved. If the first person is uncomfortable with saying Jesus, he seems in the lesser position.
Fortunately, it's not our call. Can you imagine any one of us deciding who does or doesn't get into God's Kingdom? Is it possible that God could be big enough to accommodate both? I've said it before, if the vast majority of folks don't make it, then it wasn't much of a plan!
ReplyDeleteneither...it's obvious that neither of them has been called.
ReplyDeleteone is simply going through the motions, following a man...looks good on the outside but rotten at the core (much like the pharisees of old)
the other does not obey God's instructions, also following a man who convinced her that the law was "done away"...
" I would simply show up and explain to everyone in every age (I am Eternal after all) what the deal is and how the program works."
ReplyDeletesecond resurrection, Dennis....second resurrection.
"Christ says that this criminal will be with Him in paradise."
ReplyDeleteyep...paradise is the second resurrection, at the end of the millennium, when the whole earth is like the garden in Eden.
Oh if only life and people's lives were that simple SHT.
ReplyDeleteDennis says that he would simply show up and explain everything. Err, God already tried that. Remember? The result was that a third of the angels followed Satan.
ReplyDeleteBack to the drawing board for you Dennis. And don't quit your day job.
ReplyDeleteObviously it’s not my call, or anyone else’s on this board, but God’s alone.
My understanding of scripture would indicate that neither these two hypothetical people would be in the first resurrections, for a number of reasons, many of which have been already picked out by previous posters. But as I say, it’s God’s decision, not any of ours (fortunately!).
I see that Dennis said:-
“I would simply show up and explain to everyone…. what the deal is and how the program works. No doubts, no faith in the unseen.
They would all know me from the least to the greatest because I actually showed up in person clearing up all questions and doubts as they arouse.
and too..I'd heal the sick both physically and mentally so they'd feel good about it all.”
Hang on a moment, Dennis, isn’t that exactly what the Bible says God is going to do? Once God takes over from Satan that is exactly the plan.
A society where everyone has no doubts about God, because He is there in person, and everything is explained, and also physical and mental sickness has been healed.
And that applies to everyone living prior to God taking over. Everyone that has lived in the past and the present – if they are not in the first resurrection, then they will be in the second. God’s plan covers everyone.
But you pretty well knew this anyway didn’t you? This isn’t your original thought, God got there before you with that idea!
Anon 6:59 Not sure that that is the second resurrection. Could be, but you are making a supposition.
ReplyDeleteAnon 6:55 I'm surprised you are so sure about that. I agree with Miller.
ReplyDelete"Oh if only life and people's lives were that simple SHT. "
ReplyDeleteOh, it's not. We are well aware of this - but many of the COG ministers past and present seem to have not understsood this or forgot this.
Very little if any (in a majority of cases) real understanding of the complexities of life really verified into the decision making of the COG top brass from congregational leadership on up. Decisions were made on black and white thinking regardless of the consequence. Consider the type of things the ministry would say:
(INSERT SCENARIO HERE)? Lake of fire.
How many scenarios could you imagine?
In how many of those scenarios were there any consideration about case by case decisions in regards to: Sabbath? Holy Days? Attendance? Sickness? And those are just the big ones. What about the little ones like calling a Minister by his first name? accidentally disrespecting a minister without knowing it? Disobeying a trivial command? How many were wrongly condemned to the LOF without true reason or compassion or understanding just because of a violation of ministerial authority?
How many on this thread alone judged either of these two as ineligible for the Kingdom just based on the paragraph of information we have available here? Thank God no human is ever entrusted with that kind of decision making!
I'm glad St. Peter is in charge of the Pearly Gates and not most of the posters on here.
ReplyDeleteSHT 2.20PM,
ReplyDeleteYour closing paragraph is an eye-opener. Too many decisions are being made without knowing ALL the facts.. Ironically, it was HWA who was a firm believer of this adage "Get all the facts..." before he made a decision, according to his autobiography.
Someone mentioned in this blog that it is good that nobody can see or know what the real intents and heart of another person. Only God does. Put it in another way,we must not write off someone who appears to have fallen off from standard religious beliefs. Or in a competitive game, the play is still on until the whistle is blown. The thing is not to give up or pre-judge.
Quester
ReplyDeleteI meant from the beginning not some not yet imagined time in the future
I think the point you are trying to make, SHT, is that we do not have the means to judge ANYONE as to whether or not they are fit for TKOG. God, alone, knows our hearts and minds. No one else does. Yeah, we shall know them by their fruits, but even then it’s about your relationship with them, not their relationship with God. That relationship is personal and private. We are not to judge someone’s eternal life. Period!
ReplyDeleteDennis said...
ReplyDeleteQuester
’I meant from the beginning not some not yet imagined time in the future’
Yes, I know you did Dennis.
However, my point is that my understanding of the Bible is that every person who has ever lived in the past or the present will either be in the first resurrection, or in the second resurrection.
If in the first then they have eternal life, if in the second, then they will be resurrected into a society such as you suggested, a society where everyone has no doubts about God, because He is there in person, and everything is explained, and also physical and mental sickness has been healed.
OK, so God is doing it slightly different to you in His timing. An individuals, full understanding may not be there from the beginning of a person’s life, but it is guaranteed to be there at some point, and I mean absolutely knowing, not some sort of vague faith that it ‘may be right’.
While God may differ slightly to you in the timing, Dennis, I suggest that it’s probably because He has been around a little longer than you, and has no doubt built up some experience on the subject, so I am prepared to take it that He did it this way for a reason.
The COGs, while rejecting an eternal burning hell fire, pushed the idea of a lake of fire, where anyone that was called into the Church, but didn’t toe the line, would be thrown into this lake for apparently any minor indiscretion, skirt too short, not calling the minister Mr etc.
My understanding of scripture is that in this age anyone ‘called’ or not, who doesn’t make the first resurrection will be in the second, simply because of the reasons that you have stated Dennis – that they didn’t actually know for certain, without any doubt, the reality of God’s plan.
Being in the COGs and ‘giving up’, for whatever reason, and then being resurrected into the second resurrection isn’t to my mind giving someone a ‘second chance’, but rather extending their first chance.
(But what is the problem of a second chance anyway? Jesus talks of forgiving 70 times 7, not just once!).
Only when an individual absolutely knows what God’s plan is, with no room for doubt, only then can fair judgement be applied.
At that point it is true that they do need to make a reasoned choice, take up God’s offer of eternal life, with the responsibility of showing genuine love to everyone else, or reject the offer, understanding exactly what that means, that they will not be living forever.