"Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people. "
Carl Sagan
"Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark."
Carl Sagan
Humility
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
Carl Sagan
"We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces."
Carl Sagan
Just finished watching HBO's Chernobyl and for some reason it struck me how similar the Soviet system was to religion. Christians not infrequently drone on blaming the evils of it on "atheism," but the Soviet system was the cult of Lenin and it's evils are similar evils to those of Armstrongism, and they existed for similar reasons and were driven by similar causes. It was authoritarian, and political expediency and ideology trumped the facts. Propaganda was the coin of the realm. The Plain Truth was a pack of lies.
ReplyDeleteI say it's similar to "religion" because I also can't help but notice how similar all of that is to the current state of politics in America. 80% of evangelicals are fully on board with the authoritarianism, the expediency, and the propaganda. They have no use for facts either. It's sad.
Cliches much, 11:35?
ReplyDelete11.35 PM
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more. I watched the series. It's rave reviews are definitely warranted.
Most of the evangelists, including HWA and the commies are social justice warriors. Their vision and false God is a inversion of Psalm 1:3-4
Ps 1-3 "And he (the godly) shall be be like a tree planted by the rivers of the waters..."
PS 1-4 "The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff that the wind driveth away"
This vision of the losers being the master race can only be implemented via authoritarianism and mind twisting propaganda.
So the little people are too stupid to know right from wrong, so they need big people like Carl Sagan telling them what the truth is. This is the Herb church culture. The big people tell the little people what to believe, just like in the Catholic church. So forget about private bible study, or 'prove all things,' ie, evidence plus reason. Rather just believe 'what Mr Armstrong taught' (spoken in reverential tones), or what Carl Sagan said.
ReplyDeleteI say, the big people can go eat cake.
PS Dennis would have us believe that the moon is made of green cheese if Carl Sagan said so.
Both sides tell lies - you have to look hard to find truth.
ReplyDeletefar more galaxies than people
ReplyDeleteAnother way to look at this is that, per Sagan's own admission, every member of the God Family will have several galaxies to transform.
Dennis quotes Carl Sagan...
ReplyDelete"Our posturings, our imagined self-importance"
Well , like it or not, we are the only place in the known universe with life. I call that pretty darned important.
The SETI project , which in earnest has been searching for ET life since the early 1960s has found absolutely NOTHING! Considering the vastness of the universe, one would at least expect to find some type of intelligent electromagnetic disturbance, but nothing of the sort has been found. Frankly, one would expect that there should be LOTS of such signatures around, but there are not.
Nor has there been any type of laser, or gamma ray or any ofter type of energy disturbance that can be described as intelligent.
Should one go down the atheism "rabbit hole", one should ponder just what a "flukey" weird thing, life and even existence, are.
Song from the 1970s that sums it up...National Lampoon's Detiorata AKA "You Are A Fluke Of The Universe" (you have no right to be here!)
https://youtu.be/LA7383noev8
"Well , like it or not, we are the only place in the known universe with life. I call that pretty darned important."
ReplyDeleteOn what basis of knowledge do you make that statement. It's very likely that life is the inevitable end result of progressive evolution anywhere in the universe where the conditions are right. The fact that we've not received any electromagnetic communications speaks more to the inherent unlikelihood and rarity of super-intelligent technological creatures eventually coming along than anything else. A couple centuries ago, we weren't broadcasting anything anywhere in spite of some rather spectacular technological developments of that time. Your comment reminds me of Herb confidently bloviating that "god" would never allow men to reach the moon. I heard him in person. Maybe you're one of those who confidently state the moon landings were faked because it flies in the face of what that over impressed with himself narcissist said.
A couple centuries ago, we weren't broadcasting anything anywhere in spite of some rather spectacular technological developments of that time.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I have heard it suggested, quite persuasively, that had Christianity not prevailed in the Roman Empire, followed by the Dark Ages, the pace of Greco-Roman scientific advances might have led to a manned moon landing before AD 1500. There are just too many unanswered "what if" questions about the rarity of life, and the rarity of complex life, for us to speak authoritatively on these guesses. It's quite possible that intelligent life arises rather easily, but usually obliterates itself when nuclear technology outpaces moral development. On the other hand, it is possible that intelligent life arises rather easily, but that the FIRST intelligent civilization seeks out new life and DESTROYS the competition. Heck, it's even possible that intelligent life suffuses the universe, and we're just too primitive to recognize it. It's all great fun to speculate about, but that's all it is -- speculation.
Anon6:27AM wrote:
ReplyDelete"So the little people are too stupid to know right from wrong, so they need big people like Carl Sagan telling them what the truth is. This is the Herb church culture. The big people tell the little people what to believe, just like in the Catholic church. So forget about private bible study, or 'prove all things,' ie, evidence plus reason. Rather just believe 'what Mr Armstrong taught' (spoken in reverential tones), or what Carl Sagan said.
I say, the big people can go eat cake. PS Dennis would have us believe that the moon is made of green cheese if Carl Sagan said so."
That's exactly the right attitude, Anon6:27AM. Don't take anyone at their word just because they have a bully pulpit. Not Herbert Armstrong, not Carl Sagan, and for godssakes not the some guys who wrote something long, long ago. Get the evidence, then deal with it in a reasonable fashion, and in a reasonable universe, you'll get the same result as any other reasonable person.
But it's garbage in-garbage out. Trouble comes when people aren't reasonable, and figure they can skip the first part, and instead of evidence, think they can begin with delusion, in which case, they just end up with delusion.
If you start with the evidence, and you're reasonable, and if Sagan did the same, and he was reasonable, you'll both agree. That's how science is supposed to work. Granted, that's not how it works 100% of the time, which is why science advances one funeral at a time, but at least it does advance.
Which is more than I can say for religion, which is stuck in the dark ages, and "works" in exactly the way you appear to be taking issue with, with the "big people" telling the "little people" what "the truth" is.
Wait, what are you reacting to again? What did Carl Sagan say again?
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." —Carl Sagan
Oh yeah. So, you, Carl Sagan, and Dennis are all actually saying the same thing...
What were you complaining about again?
"Well , like it or not, we are the only place in the known universe with life. I call that pretty darned important."
ReplyDeleteThat sentiment is very similar to the attitude of the microbes that make up the pink scum on the walls of our shower stall. To the farthest extent of their knowledge, that stall is the only place in the Universe with just the right temperature, humidity, and periodic drenching of water to make life possible. It is pretty darned important to them because it indicates they must be pretty darned important themselves.
Little do they know how insignificant yet disgusting they are to the Owners of the stall and how soon they will be purged from existence by a spritz of Tilex, a swipe with a plastic sponge, and a final rinse with clean water. Meanwhile those organisms remain steadfast in the faith that the Owners love them each individually and are carrying out a plan of salvation to welcome them into the Owner Family.
Or the turkeys who get fed every day by the nice farmer until....
ReplyDeleteWe are the only planet that we KNOW of with life. We might well be the ONLY place in the galaxy where intelligent life evolved and hasn't blown itself up yet. It does not make us ARROGANT to recognize that possibility. Why does Carl Sagan bother writing books if nothing matters? He must be the one with an ego problem.
ReplyDeleteIt is futile to argue with bull-headed defeatists so I'll just agree with them, in part: YOUR life is meaningless!
Dennis might well be one of the most bull-headed people I know.
ReplyDeleteExamples of his alleged bullheadedness would be appropriate.
DeleteTonto noted: "The SETI project , which in earnest has been searching for ET life since the early 1960s has found absolutely NOTHING! Considering the vastness of the universe, one would at least expect to find some type of intelligent electromagnetic disturbance, but nothing of the sort has been found. Frankly, one would expect that there should be LOTS of such signatures around, but there are not. '
ReplyDeleteI noted: "The Theological project, which in earnest has been searching for God since the early Second Millennium BCE has found absolutely NOTHING! Considering the vastness of the universe, one would expect to find some type of intelligent personal God , but nothing of the sort has been found. Frankly, one would expect there to be lots of proof around, but there is NONE."
Just sayin
Are we to base our science, spirituality, morals, philosophy of life on what microbes, who can't think, are alleged to think?
ReplyDeleteThe earth is teaming with life, but as far as a rock knows, there is no life. Should we base our view of life on what we think rocks think? I guess if I had rocks in my head, that's what I would do.
Maybe some people have microbes in their heads?
"the Soviet system was the cult of Lenin"
ReplyDeleteIt went deeper than just Lenin. Look into his background. The same system is at work today.
According to the Nobel prize winning Soviet dissident, the Commies wiped out possibly up to 65 million people. What they also don't tell you is that the Commies specifically targeted Russians of European (especially Aryan) heritage. That was the real holocaust. Why have your leaders NOT told you that? Who controls America today? Why did Obama--who had a lot of commie friends--say the USA needs a home "security" force as well-manned and well funded as the US army? YOU are the next target, that's why.
W and his PNAC buddies got his Department of Homeland Security while Obama was in the Illinois Legislature-unfortunately with the full-throated support of many Dems. Blaming Obama is irrational.
DeleteKemosabe says: Hmm, Tonto - him know less about physics than him thinks him does, knowledge not come from watching the Discovery Channel or The World Tormorrow......
ReplyDeleteConsidering the vastness of the universe, interstellar communication isn't easy and intergalactic is much, much tougher. To gain some perspective on the intergalactic communications problem see Lecture IV at: http://www.astro.caltech.edu/ay1/RevModPhys.51.447.pdf . This isn't talking across town on a cell phone. Dyson concludes the energy needed is a bit more than a few kWH, more like Gigawatt-years, and this with a directed beam, not "broadcasting". And the message coding might be so different than what humans have developed to date that we might not even recognize the message in the background noise! We might not be alone, but it is a challenge to find out Tonto. Note: These lectures were given 40 years ago and physics has progressed, but this is still worth a read. At the same time Sagan was also working to expand our knowledge while the great HWA was working to keep the cash register going ka-ching.
On another subject, I have only been reading this site a short time, but I have read some of what Dennis has posted. Bullheaded? Hardly, it seems he goes where learning,reason,and logic takes him, making good use of his 200 Watts or 10^23 bits. No fluke.
Anon6:12PM wrote:
ReplyDelete"Are we to base our science, spirituality, morals, philosophy of life on what microbes, who can't think, are alleged to think?"
Must you be obtuse?
BB is using an outsider test. If you wouldn't accept those same statements from someone else's perspective, judging them absurd, that lets you you're suffering from a bias, a failure of objectivity, and others who don't share your bias won't accept your statements either, judging them as absurd as well. And rightly so.
Maybe some here aren't capable of outsider tests. Perhaps eventually they'll reach the developmental stage at which Theory of Mind is acquired?
Dennis said:
ReplyDelete"I noted: 'The Theological project, which in earnest has been searching for God since the early Second Millennium BCE has found absolutely NOTHING! Considering the vastness of the universe, one would expect to find some type of intelligent personal God , but nothing of the sort has been found. Frankly, one would expect there to be lots of proof around, but there is NONE.'"
Just sayin' AMEN!
ReplyDelete"The SETI project , which in earnest has been searching for ET life since the early 1960s has found absolutely NOTHING! Considering the vastness of the universe, one would at least expect to find some type of intelligent electromagnetic disturbance, but nothing of the sort has been found. Frankly, one would expect that there should be LOTS of such signatures around, but there are not."
In fairness, the vastness of the universe is in fact the issue here- light (and all other energy) only travels so fast and the universe is expanding at a rate beyond the speed of light so there is so much out there that we will never see. Oh, and let's not forget that we've only been looking for signs of life for about about 50 some years out of 14 billion... Even if the universe is teaming with life, it's no surprise that we haven't discovered something already. Just my opinion.
IMO the Bible is the word of an immortal, invisible, spiritual Creator. Mankind is made in His image. There is no other physical life like what He created on our earth out there in outer space. So we will never find such no matter how much time or money governments waste on such projects. There are "inter-dimensional" beings, however, that are behind the phenomena of UFOs and alien abductions here on this earth. What's interesting is these beings have throughout the centuries manifested themselves into whatever is culturally acceptable to the duped population (eg fairies, elves, ETs). If one looks at the history of UFOlogy it's interesting to note they have lied about their origins from the start. In the early days alien visitors claimed they were from Venus, Mars or Jupiter, but now since we've discovered no planet in our solar system holds any kind of life like ours they claim they're from distant stars and galaxies (eg Pleiades, Zeta Reticuli, Sirius, etc). As the Creator said: "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
ReplyDeleteCarl Sagan was merely stating facts. We are quite small compared to vastness of the universe. Also, just because we have not yet detected intelligent life elsewhere in the universe doesn't mean that life doesn't exist elsewhere in the universe.
ReplyDelete"The Theological project, which in earnest has been searching for God since the early Second Millennium BCE has found absolutely NOTHING!"
ReplyDeleteOne does not find God by poking around in the material universe. This statement indicates that its author knows very little about the concept of God at all.
I would admit this is the kind of statement ex-Armstrongist non-believers would be attracted to. Because Armstrongism always taught that God lives within the physical Universe - somewhere in the Sides of the North. I heard GTA on the broadcast say that if you had a rocket ship powerful enough, you could go to where God resides.
But realize that only a tiny, tiny number of people have ever had their minds corrupted by Armstrongism and would find the quotation above substantive.
ANd who cares how many stars and planets there are and where earth is located in respect to them? Is that supposed to be some kind of earth shaking statement? From the perspective of theology, is a "nothing burger."
ReplyDeleteNEO goofed saying "One does not find GOd poking around in the material Universe" as Romans 1:20 notes that the invisible things of God are clearly understood by poking around in the"things that are made, which I assume means the material universe.
ReplyDeleteBut nice try😊
God is omnipresent. He is the universe, because He made the universe from elements of Himself. Think about that for a minute. It means that God and the universe are not separate entities from one another. They are distinguishable conceptually, but indistinguishable from one another in every other way.
ReplyDeleteCarl Sagan and todays Neil deGrasse Tyson are pompous fools who protryed themselves as the “High Priests” of Astro Physics. Neither can explain the “unnatural“ fine tuning of the Laws of Physics that allow for the creation of matter and for the unique conditions for Life to exist. They have no real answer for the origin of life other than silly myths of lighting striking a scummy pond. They have no answers for what is call “Dark Energy” or “Dark Matter”.
ReplyDeleteIn book “The Privileged Planet” it states the odds of life enabling factors occurring are the same on Earth and the odds of all of the conditions coming together in one location are 1/1,000,000,000,000,000. Carl Sagan belittles Earth in ignorant demeaning manner.
Romans 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools
N-E-O says the location of earth in respect to other elements of the universe is a "nothing burger." Yes, I guess so, from the perspective of theology.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a bit of evidence that Stephen Jay Gould was onto something when he proposed that we consider religion and science to be "non-overlapping magisteria": areas of thought that have no common basis. Astronomers, physicists, geologists, biologists, and other scientists who investigate the big questions generally consider theology to be a nothing burger. So it may be best to compartmentalize: draw a line between them. Might even be worthwhile to establish a demilitarized zone a certain distance on either side of that line.
Trouble is, that solution would deny us all the entertainment of dashing across the line to poke fun at those on the other side.
"I would admit this is the kind of statement ex-Armstrongist non-believers would be attracted to. Because Armstrongism always taught that God lives within the physical Universe - somewhere in the Sides of the North. I heard GTA on the broadcast say that if you had a rocket ship powerful enough, you could go to where God resides."
ReplyDeleteActually, the place is called Kolob.
Now, sit back and relax as the Mormon Tabernacle sings If You Could Hie To Kolob:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d8jHo7Lx3o
8.14 PM
ReplyDeleteSince you are new to this blog, it's understandable that you think that Dennis is a Mr nice guy who goes where ever reason and logic takes him. But if you still hold on to this belief after a body of evidence and patterns in his writings become apparent, please contact me so that I can sell you a bridge very cheaply.
"NEO goofed saying..."
ReplyDeleteI confess that I am not familiar with "The Theological Project." I assumed from context that it was some effort to apply the scientific method to some aspect of the material universe in order to "find" God or demonstrate his existence via repeatable experiment on phenomenal objects. This is usually where these kind of assertions lead.
Romans 1:20, I believe, refers to the source of being itself - a reality that transcends the scientific method but is readily understood to be necessary by the human mind. This is at the level of ontology. (Beneath that ontological level there are other evidences. Such as, the processes of the human mind are not just an accumulation of varied molecular reactions and the origin of the mind is not explained by natural selection. Or the Big Bang Theory. But Paul's audience would not have the epistemic content to relate to this.) Or Romans 1:20 could refer to the existence of some species of natural law found universally in human societies. "Thou shalt not steal" is not just theological but pragmatic - part of he woven cloth of human relationships.
It is this concept of "natural law" that atheists typically evoke in order to demonstrate that they are not amoral even though they are non-believers. Ironically, Romans 1:20 may say that it is one of the observable evidences, on their doorsteps, that tells of God.
For those interested in science, here is a free science magazine with a wide variety of articles. This one on new planet creation.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.quantamagazine.org/a-close-look-at-newborn-planets-reveals-hints-of-infant-moons-20190611/?utm_source=Quanta+Magazine&utm_campaign=d079a38e77-RSS_Daily_Physics&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f0cb61321c-d079a38e77-390025597&mc_cid=d079a38e77&mc_eid=b7cb188cd0
Sometimes Dennis is more dogmatic than a religious zealot.
ReplyDeleteI've read many if not most of Dennis's posts. Based on my reading, to label him "dogmatic" is simply mind-bogglingly perverse or misguided.
Delete"Must you be obtuse?"
ReplyDeleteNo. I leave that to you.
"BB is using an outsider test."
I didn't know the Retired Prof. was just another handle for BB. I don't get the point of having two handles.
"Maybe some here aren't capable of outsider tests. Perhaps eventually they'll reach the developmental stage at which Theory of Mind is acquired?"
Sounds like we have another fake academic on here. They tend to think there is no intelligent life outside the halls of fake academia and politically correct posturing. They are the true center of the cosmos.
Here is a quote from the web. The context is that he is complaining that Freemasonry has been hijacked from its original purpose. But what I found interesting was the alleged meaning of the word "Amen". We were all told to say "Amen" which supposedly is the name of an Egyptian Sun God. That would make Bible Christianity sun-worship. Herbert wasn't so far off after all.
ReplyDeleteDo not Master Masons know that Solomon and his twelve tribes of Israel, and Jesus with his twelve apostles are allegories for the Sun and the twelve signs of the zodiac? Do they not know that when Christians say "Amen," they pray to the Egyptian Sun God "Amen Ra?" Do they no longer know that Jachin and Boaz are the Obelisks that once stood at the entrance to the Temple of Amen Ra? Do they no longer know that the Great Pyramid is the greatest of all temples? Can they not decipher the hermetic coding in the 74 words of Revelation 2:9 and 3:9, which identify the racial-religious tribe that rules all once-White nations, and who have sentenced the White Aryan race to death? Today's "Craftsmen" desecrate the memory of their ancestors. True Masons, custodians of the Mysteries, wrote the U.S. Declaration of Independence and Articles of Confederation, which, though imperfect, reflect their desire for freedom and their fear of government. Their dreams were soon subverted as the Jewish Illuminati infiltrated the major lodges of Masonry. And now for over 200 years the Craft has served ersatz Zion, knowing not what they do.
1:17, On what basis are you equating BB and Retired Prof? I don't think BB was ever a professor. I have no clue who he is or if I ever knew him.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1:17 PM says, "I didn't know the Retired Prof. was just another handle for BB. I don't get the point of having two handles."
ReplyDeleteNah. June 10 at 8:23 PM just slipped up and wrote in the wrong handle. It happens. Nobody's perfect.
BB used the alternative handle "Miguel de la Rodente" for a while, but after he blew his cover by signing a comment as "BB" he gave it up.
There may be a point in using two handles. I did that on a printed forum because I made comments both in my professional area and in outdoorsy stuff like hunting, fishing, and cutting firewood. The personas for each were different. Another online forum I contributed to had a blowhard commenter who kept burying his meaning under piles of needless verbiage. I would restate his points using one tenth the number of words and then sign the comment "Morris Loess and Les S. Moore." He eventually got the point of the pun, but blithely went on bloviating.
On this forum I have never used any handle except "Retired Prof." If 8:23 did actually confuse me with Byker Bob, I am flattered, because BB is good--good ideas, good style.
One of the ironies of Dennis's life is that he spent part of it in proximity of the "hwa portland library."
ReplyDeleteThe irony in mine is that I spent large part of my life at conferences with business leaders that are either named "The World Tomorrow" or where speakers make a living writing books named "The World Tomorrow" or "The Seven rules of Succes."
nck
LOL! People have been guessing wrong for years now! Years ago, one moderator had me as three different participants, and another person thought I wrote all the comments on one of the old forums. For those who are interested, I never was any sort of professor. I just read widely, and do teach people how to operate and repair our equipment. And, I was a little kid when Al was a ministerial assistant in our area. Right now I have been buried in new machine installations, summer trade shows, and overhauls of some of our larger production equipment. This is why my comments here have slowed to a trickle.
ReplyDeleteBB
I'm beginning to think I'm someone else, too!
ReplyDeletePerhaps the easiest (and most to-the-point) explanation would be, that besides the fact that I've chosen a few different monikers while on groups like these, I am no longer the person I was when I believed HWA's crap.