Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
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Wednesday, October 16, 2019
UPDATED: Which Entity Did Does The Church of God Focus The Most Upon?
Did we hear more about Satan than Jesus?
Did we hear more about Moses and the law than Jesus?
Did we hear more about HWA than Jesus?
Did we hear about Jesus Christ as much as the above entities?
In WCG the ONLY preaching was about Jesus. Since in WCG theology the God of the Old Testament was LOGOS The Word or the ONE that became Jesus......one and the same "persona, different monicker."
Nck I've been reading church literature since the mid 1960s, and never once did I come across a article pointing out that Jesus leads every Christian directly. No middlemen ministers are necessary. In fact, I learnt this from a guest minister on a Kenneth Copeland TV program. It's the 'heaven' Christians rather than the HWA minions who have this right. Herb ministers usurping Christ's role is a grievous sin in Gods eyes. Moses found this out the hard way when he pointed to himself rather than God. The ACOGs only pull out Christ's name when they feel it will exalt themselves.
Your Herb white washing knows no bounds. With your HWA worship and city slicker lawyer ways, some ACOGs would probably you you as one of their ministers.
We heard more about HWA than anyone. He talked and wrote about himself all the time. Most ministers would then "parrot" what he said in announcements, sermons, etc.
After the demise of the WCG, if you went to an HWA worshiping splinter group you constantly heard and read about HWA, until the false leadership made the focus themselves.
"In WCG, the ONLY preaching was about Jesus" How about what they had to say about the meaning of the Day of Atonement? I seem to recall SATAN'S fingerprints being all over that one! Do you remember HWA's bookelet "Pagan Holidays - or God's Holy Days - Which?" What about "The Incredible Human Potential" and "Mystery of the Ages." One of the ministries favorite scriptures was Revelation 12:9 - that Satan has deceived the whole world. No, it is clear that Satan figured very prominently in the WCG's theology.
Yeah, it seems that the ONLY name by which one may receive salvation gets pass over for those things you mentioned above. I sometimes challenge people to note whether the OT or the NT is quoted the most in sermons, and of course it is the OT hands down. It's like trying to be an OT church because the physical is easier to monitor and control or influence than the heart or the spiritual.
A few weeks ago I challenged a friend of mine who attends a UCG congregation to note what got mentioned the most …. the name of Jesus or the Feast of Tabernacles. I never got a report back, but I'm confident it was no contest! FOT gets talked about for at least 6 months of the year. Sometimes it seems like being 'the church of the FOT' or 'the OT church'.
The WCG and its splinters are founded on a religious pathology called Performance Christianity. You can read about it. They view everything through the lens of Performance and Control - the two go hand in hand. PC determines where they place their focus. Their religious philosophy is focused as follows:
1. They focus on the law because it prescribes behaviors or performances. (Performance) 2. They focus on the law because it provides a standard by which to judge behaviors and performances. (Control) 3. They may mention the name of Christ betimes but they do not focus on what he brought as a message. For instance, they have almost no awareness of the concept of grace. Grace is, for them, antithetical to performance and control and, therefore, is an erosive canker to be eschewed. (Heresy)
On the last point, I would like to see a video where someone stands at the door of FOT services and asks people what grace is. I think the darkness of mind would be stunnng.
That is a small snippet of a big topic. This is something that has been understood for at least two decades.
From kindergarten on I knew that the difference between my protestant environment and catholic family was that the minister was not the middleman between christ and the believer.
WCG I knew was definitely NOT catholic. I knew that from age 3. Also I knew that "education" was central to the wcg creed. So I can confidently say that from age 3 I never regarded a wcg minister a middleman rather a "teacher." (which by the standards of this blog they weren't but that's a matter of taste)
Miller Jones
at (ONE) ment ONE WITH WHAT OR WHO Miller? to SEPARATE the goat from "god" (or the Logos)
Miller PLEASE in wcg teaching EVERYTHING in the gods holydays seemed too foreshadow the return of Jesus .......as christ.......... I agree. The very difference with the so called "pagan holidays" that did not.
The incredible human potential??????? What about it? To become god as god is god to be part of the family of the logos, to be "at one".
Satan deceived the whole world. No. Satan in wcg theology IS the current ruler and king of this world. In wcg theology Jesus already "qualified" to replace satan as king" but has not as of yet returned to claim that seat that is already rightfully his.
I thought you guys had a sense of humor when I said that for wcg the OT god and NT Jesus are one and the same entity. Instead you are forcing me to clarify wcg doctrine.....horrible.
I often observed church members warming up to other members who were obviously morally challenged. By contrast, there was hostility towards the better natured members. My point is that many ministers and members shun Christ and His name because He is righteous. Instead they embrace moral fools like HWA, After all, why did thousands join the splinter church founded by moral loser Rod Meredith.
Nck Congratulations that from age 3 you regarded the WCG minister as a teacher rather than a middleman. But you are the exception, not the rule. In fact, calling the WCG ministers 'middlemen' is being kind. At the very least, they acted as vicars of Christ, or Christ Himself. Why do you think ministers went through members cupboards and similar, if not to shift interpersonal boundaries. That is, to steal members rights, and hence their lives. Stealing members lives is way beyond leading members. And that was the unofficial church culture, put in place by your hero HWA.
I only heard about such cupboard abuse on recent blogs. I assume them to be true.
Even at a, younger age my CEO's would say to me that I was able to say things to people, non of THEM would get away with. I guess no one is able to even attempt abuse on ME, by something that I radiate but I am not aware of myself.
It was only my sda sabbath school teacher and kindergarten religion teacher (every Wednesday) who told stories about priests not being middlemen. Wednesday class would only start after our jehovah witness buddy would have left class. I felt pity for him being an outsider. A fate shared by many of my you peers I agree.
NCK, "The devil is the real author of all sin. Can we, then, be finally made at one with God, as long as this instigator of sin is with us? Can we not see he must first be driven away?" --Pagan Holidays - or God's Holy Days - Which? by Herbert W Armstrong "Biblical prophecies say plainly that in our time, today, the whole world would be deceived. Notice one such prophecy in the book of Revelation, chapter 12, verse 9: "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." - The Incredible Human Potential by Herbert W Armstron Chapters 4 and 5 of that book are devoted to explaining how Satan and one third of the angels sinned, and how God decided to create mankind and give their home and potential to man. "Satan has deceived people into almost every other belief." - Ibid Speaking of the Day of Atonement: "This most solemn day pictures Christ's banishment of Satan, that humanity at last may be made 'at one' with God...A humanity CUT OFF from God cannot be AT ONE with Him - until Satan is removed..." Ibid, p. 101 Chapter 4 of Mystery of the Ages by HWA was devoted to explaining how Satan has influenced human civilization. "The coming of Christ in supreme glory as King of kings and Lord of lords is recorded in Revelation 19. But what other great event will have to take place before there can be peace, HAPPINESS and JOY on the earth? SATAN the devil will have to be removed from the throne of the earth." Chapter 7, Mystery of the Ages
Yes Miller. WCG theology stated that mankind did NOT have access to Jesus unless "called". We were discussing what was taught to the "called out ones" didn't we??
What a load of crock to claim the WCG only taught Jesus. It was all about the law. Bastardizing the new covenant to incorporate the law was plain heresy. Jesus was only given lip service towards the end of articles as an "if we must mention him, let's do it here". Nothing of major significance was ever shared about him, other than at Passover and then it was all about sacrifice, never resurrection.
"From kindergarten on I knew that the difference between my protestant environment and catholic family was that the minister was not the middleman between christ and the believer.
WCG I knew was definitely NOT catholic. I knew that from age 3. Also, I knew that "education" was central to the wcg creed."
No 3 year old knows such things, nor cares. Also, education in Armstrongism was NOT central to its creed. The old covenant was central to its creed and real education only cam from church literature and from the mouth of its prophet, Herbie.
You are as big a liar as Bob Thiel is. Never has the church had a bigger defender of its perversion than you, Gerald Flurry and Dr. Bob.
Oh yes, I knew we were not catholic like grandad and mom. And the nice little puppet in the big shell was Mary. etcetc you fool deserving to be a victim for eternity by choice.
It's weird to me that Christian theology purports to be monotheistic even though an anthropologist studying it from outside would say it includes at least two gods, an inconsistently benevolent one and a malevolent trickster. Beyond that basic duality, the benevolent one includes more than one sub-entity. Depending on the sect, there may be two or three beings fused into one or the mirror image: one entity manifesting itself in up to three ways.
Don't worry nck, they are all about rewriting history. The WCG was a shitty organization and there's no reason to exaggerate their errors, because they were legion. They did teach Jesus whether these "nincompoops" want to admit it or not.
I think Armstrong apologetics is a trigger for many into sociopathy even when some slight humor is added (this is my slight added humor). Many of the things you say are reminiscent of the propaganda we were told and the carefully crafted comments that provide plausible deniability (with enough exceptions the wcg was always able to somehow say "that's not what I said!" and synthesize it to a point somewhat acceptable if you were willing to argue it, but this was generally not the real belief). they often would say contradictory things too and apply the comment broadly or narrowly to placate the questioner. But, this elasticity would soon wear out and such questioners either quit the wcg or were forced to or exhausted into submission. Their explanations are always convoluted. Looking at COGwa's booklet "the mystery of the Kingdom" they poke around and jabber about what some supposedly believe about the "when" of the kingdom, but it is not until page 18 of the booklet that they just say the Kingdom is only in the future and not today. I suppose they are trying the sales technique of getting people into the pattern of saying "yes", "that's true", "that makes sense" by stating obvious things and then hope that builds confidence in their veracity before dropping their final piece of nonsense (with little elaboration and perhaps a plausible deniability out) before moving to more obvious yeses.
There is a palpable dishonesty in their whole approach. I think it sounds like you play games with Armstrongism for fun (though more terse of late). Your experience was vastly different from most. When someone compares Armstrongism with catholicism you will point out some differences , but the overall comparison is good (and unfair to catholicism). The language used in their government is not the same, but the structure itself was and the intrusion into members lives was much worse.
Most organizations that teach propaganda are into education (their own). Many have been educated into false concepts and beliefs.
Anyway, you are exasperating at times as I believe you intend, but my understanding is that you do not practice the teachings of HWA; if not it is because you found them largely false (I assume). And if you can still broadly defend the wcg to some extent you simply did not experience the wcg of most and are detached from its realities. Or maybe not.
They taught Christ as Savior primarily. A future Savior. One who extends life. But, I never got the feel of One Who GAVE life. There was no teaching in CHrist Saving us now as sinners. And, loving us. We said some words sometimes about Christ living in us, but there was always the law. He was there to make us keep the law. I'm not sure that that qualifies as teaching Jesus or Christ.
I shudder to think that I remember talking with other teens how we revered "God", but didn't like hearing about Jesus. I know of no other church system that could pull off such a result.
Christianity is most definitely polytheistic, whether Trinitarian, Binitarian, and even Unitarian since they believe that Jesus is a god coming forth from the Father who has always existed. Still at least two gods.
I personally believe there are an untold number of gods, and we are destined to join that number.
Jim, of course you're entitled to your opinion, but being in the WCG for 25 years from 1967 to 1992, from the age of two, I personally learned about Jesus. I also learned to reject the WCG and HWA, but that's another story.
I remember Ron Dart often saying, when speaking of how the WCG taught that Protestants taught a false Jesus, that when he was a Southern Baptist he accepted the same Jesus that he now (at the time) worships, he has just learned more about him.
I'm sure most can say the same thing no matter their history.
Sorry, but what is going on in this thread is revisionist history.
Jim You seem like one of the good guys capable of arguing a point sensibly. 1st at least you admit that I exactly mirror "the propaganda" meaning I do not make stuff up.
2nd Your argument is filled with examples where you compare armstrongism with how you today feel it contrasted with what Christianity ought to be.
I'm sorry, but my point would be that on "page 18" cogwa clearly teaches that they believe that the kingdom is in the future. I'm sorry if a future detractors is frustrated about that fact and would find a person like me pointing "page 18" out exasperating.
It is true that I did not experience wcg as some frequent commenter in the decades that I associated and more like the silent majority like ASB or even Dennis.
I never comment on lcg, Thiel, ucg etc simply because I have no personal experience there.
I simply made an initial and truthful remark that in wcg theology Jesus and the OT logos are the same.
This blew some people's minds because they are not as broad minded or whatever as a person like retired Prof who is able to see what I see even if he didn't respond to mine but just made an observation as I did. Making observations is dealt with in a manner they accuse wcg of. So it seems "victims" are similar or perhaps the same as "the accused". I am not surprised since they were in a different bubble as I was.
Re catholicism. Yeah the "bread and wine" represented the same. Still extreme differences in interpretation like transforming of the wine during the ritual etc. It's kindergarten theology to know the difference. I do admit growing up in a Bible belt so my understanding about healing doctrines and doctors came earlier than most since the Bible belters suffered strokes of polio in streaks when I was little and I wanted "protection" against polio, a decision our wcg minister "left to my mother's conscious and relation to God" CLEARLY indicating that it was God's purpose to have us kids grow into adulthood and a desire that as adults us kids would be able to see eye to eye with my mother.
10:01 and 10:15, most likely the same person so the answer to your questions is "figure it out for yourself". If you're really interested in the answer you can email me at Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
Ok now, today is the midst of the feast (for those using the rabbinic calendar). For those who are now unbelievers, or don't believe in a seven thousand year plan, whether literal or symbolic, please bear with me.
In John 7:2 the Feast of tabernacles was near and Jesus' brothers told him to go up to Jerusalem and reveal himself to the world. John 7:4
But Jesus said it wasn't his time yet. John 7:8
Then about the midst of the feast Jesus went and revealed himself by teaching in the temple. John 7:14
Most, even in the cog, find little significance to this but I think there's much.
Remember Daniel 9:27? Many think this doesn't refer to Jesus but to the prince, but is there any significance to this "midst of the week" ending of a covenant? Remember Gal. 3 says the added covenant was only til the Seed came.
If there is a seven thousand year plan, why did God wait about four thousand years to send Jesus? Was any time earlier "not yet his time"? Why was there four thousand years til Jesus, then two thousand years before he returns to set up his Kingdom? That is if we really are living in the "end times".
Why does a Wednesday crucifixion make so much sense to many of us? Because it's the midst of the week. It's the fourth day of the week, and just as Jesus, most likely imo, died at the end of the fourth millennia, he also died at the end of the 14th day of the first month which imo was most likely the fourth day of the week.
So why is today significant? Being the midst of the feast, the fourth day, it's the day picturing Jesus coming to this earth.
I watched the Nic Cage film Knowing a while back. It ended with the demise of our earth and a new planet being seeded by girls and boys from ours. It made me wonder what if everything that's going on down here has happened 100s or 1000s of times in the past or is happening on other planets right now and when it's all over will yet again on into the endless future?
In WCG the ONLY preaching was about Jesus. Since in WCG theology the God of the Old Testament was LOGOS The Word or the ONE that became Jesus......one and the same "persona, different monicker."
ReplyDeletenck
Nck
ReplyDeleteI've been reading church literature since the mid 1960s, and never once did I come across a article pointing out that Jesus leads every Christian directly. No middlemen ministers are necessary. In fact, I learnt this from a guest minister on a Kenneth Copeland TV program. It's the 'heaven' Christians rather than the HWA minions who have this right. Herb ministers usurping Christ's role is a grievous sin in Gods eyes. Moses found this out the hard way when he pointed to himself rather than God.
The ACOGs only pull out Christ's name when they feel it will exalt themselves.
Your Herb white washing knows no bounds.
With your HWA worship and city slicker lawyer ways, some ACOGs would probably you you as one of their ministers.
We heard more about HWA than anyone. He talked and wrote about himself all the time. Most ministers would then "parrot" what he said in announcements, sermons, etc.
ReplyDeleteAfter the demise of the WCG, if you went to an HWA worshiping splinter group you constantly heard and read about HWA, until the false leadership made the focus themselves.
"In WCG, the ONLY preaching was about Jesus" How about what they had to say about the meaning of the Day of Atonement? I seem to recall SATAN'S fingerprints being all over that one!
ReplyDeleteDo you remember HWA's bookelet "Pagan Holidays - or God's Holy Days - Which?" What about "The Incredible Human Potential" and "Mystery of the Ages." One of the ministries favorite scriptures was Revelation 12:9 - that Satan has deceived the whole world. No, it is clear that Satan figured very prominently in the WCG's theology.
Yeah, it seems that the ONLY name by which one may receive salvation gets pass over for those things you mentioned above. I sometimes challenge people to note whether the OT or the NT is quoted the most in sermons, and of course it is the OT hands down. It's like trying to be an OT church because the physical is easier to monitor and control or influence than the heart or the spiritual.
ReplyDeleteA few weeks ago I challenged a friend of mine who attends a UCG congregation to note what got mentioned the most …. the name of Jesus or the Feast of Tabernacles. I never got a report back, but I'm confident it was no contest! FOT gets talked about for at least 6 months of the year. Sometimes it seems like being 'the church of the FOT' or 'the OT church'.
The WCG and its splinters are founded on a religious pathology called Performance Christianity. You can read about it. They view everything through the lens of Performance and Control - the two go hand in hand. PC determines where they place their focus. Their religious philosophy is focused as follows:
ReplyDelete1. They focus on the law because it prescribes behaviors or performances. (Performance)
2. They focus on the law because it provides a standard by which to judge behaviors and performances. (Control)
3. They may mention the name of Christ betimes but they do not focus on what he brought as a message. For instance, they have almost no awareness of the concept of grace. Grace is, for them, antithetical to performance and control and, therefore, is an erosive canker to be eschewed. (Heresy)
On the last point, I would like to see a video where someone stands at the door of FOT services and asks people what grace is. I think the darkness of mind would be stunnng.
That is a small snippet of a big topic. This is something that has been understood for at least two decades.
2:10
ReplyDeleteI can confidently say that you are a nincompoop.
From kindergarten on I knew that the difference between my protestant environment and catholic family was that the minister was not the middleman between christ and the believer.
WCG I knew was definitely NOT catholic. I knew that from age 3.
Also I knew that "education" was central to the wcg creed.
So I can confidently say that from age 3 I never regarded a wcg minister a middleman rather a "teacher." (which by the standards of this blog they weren't but that's a matter of taste)
Miller Jones
at (ONE) ment ONE WITH WHAT OR WHO Miller?
to SEPARATE the goat from "god" (or the Logos)
Miller PLEASE in wcg teaching EVERYTHING in the gods holydays seemed too foreshadow the return of Jesus .......as christ.......... I agree. The very difference with the so called "pagan holidays" that did not.
The incredible human potential??????? What about it? To become god as god is god to be part of the family of the logos, to be "at one".
Satan deceived the whole world. No. Satan in wcg theology IS the current ruler and king of this world. In wcg theology Jesus already "qualified" to replace satan as king" but has not as of yet returned to claim that seat that is already rightfully his.
I thought you guys had a sense of humor when I said that for wcg the OT god and NT Jesus are one and the same entity. Instead you are forcing me to clarify wcg doctrine.....horrible.
nck
NEO mentions "Performance and Control."
ReplyDeleteI recall wcg theology focussing SOLELY on "character building".
I think there are some overlaps there.
nck
I often observed church members warming up to other members who were obviously morally challenged. By contrast, there was hostility towards the better natured members. My point is that many ministers and members shun Christ and His name because He is righteous. Instead they embrace moral fools like HWA, After all, why did thousands join the splinter church founded by moral loser Rod Meredith.
ReplyDeleteNck
ReplyDeleteCongratulations that from age 3 you regarded the WCG minister as a teacher rather than a middleman. But you are the exception, not the rule. In fact, calling the WCG ministers 'middlemen' is being kind. At the very least, they acted as vicars of Christ, or Christ Himself.
Why do you think ministers went through members cupboards and similar, if not to shift interpersonal boundaries. That is, to steal members rights, and hence their lives. Stealing members lives is way beyond leading members. And that was the unofficial church culture, put in place by your hero HWA.
8:05
DeleteI only heard about such cupboard abuse on recent blogs. I assume them to be true.
Even at a, younger age my CEO's would say to me that I was able to say things to people, non of THEM would get away with. I guess no one is able to even attempt abuse on ME, by something that I radiate but I am not aware of myself.
It was only my sda sabbath school teacher and kindergarten religion teacher (every Wednesday) who told stories about priests not being middlemen. Wednesday class would only start after our jehovah witness buddy would have left class. I felt pity for him being an outsider. A fate shared by many of my you peers I agree.
Nck
NCK,
ReplyDelete"The devil is the real author of all sin. Can we, then, be finally made at one with God, as long as this instigator of sin is with us? Can we not see he must first be driven away?" --Pagan Holidays - or God's Holy Days - Which? by Herbert W Armstrong
"Biblical prophecies say plainly that in our time, today, the whole world would be deceived. Notice one such prophecy in the book of Revelation, chapter 12, verse 9: "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." - The Incredible Human Potential by Herbert W Armstron
Chapters 4 and 5 of that book are devoted to explaining how Satan and one third of the angels sinned, and how God decided to create mankind and give their home and potential to man.
"Satan has deceived people into almost every other belief." - Ibid
Speaking of the Day of Atonement: "This most solemn day pictures Christ's banishment of Satan, that humanity at last may be made 'at one' with God...A humanity CUT OFF from God cannot be AT ONE with Him - until Satan is removed..." Ibid, p. 101
Chapter 4 of Mystery of the Ages by HWA was devoted to explaining how Satan has influenced human civilization.
"The coming of Christ in supreme glory as King of kings and Lord of lords is recorded in Revelation 19. But what other great event will have to take place before there can be peace, HAPPINESS and JOY on the earth? SATAN the devil will have to be removed from the throne of the earth." Chapter 7, Mystery of the Ages
Yes Miller.
DeleteWCG theology stated that mankind did NOT have access to Jesus unless "called". We were discussing what was taught to the "called out ones" didn't we??
Nck
What a load of crock to claim the WCG only taught Jesus. It was all about the law. Bastardizing the new covenant to incorporate the law was plain heresy. Jesus was only given lip service towards the end of articles as an "if we must mention him, let's do it here". Nothing of major significance was ever shared about him, other than at Passover and then it was all about sacrifice, never resurrection.
ReplyDelete"all about sacrifice, never resurrection".
ReplyDeleteOoooohman.........it was "ALL about Jesus being THE FIRST BORN before many"
In Christian theology it it impossible to have the or a resurection without the sacrifice.
Where were you..........hiding and shivering for the assyrians???
You are all so funny.
Nck
nck said at 7:33
ReplyDelete"From kindergarten on I knew that the difference between my protestant environment and catholic family was that the minister was not the middleman between christ and the believer.
WCG I knew was definitely NOT catholic. I knew that from age 3.
Also, I knew that "education" was central to the wcg creed."
No 3 year old knows such things, nor cares. Also, education in Armstrongism was NOT central to its creed. The old covenant was central to its creed and real education only cam from church literature and from the mouth of its prophet, Herbie.
You are as big a liar as Bob Thiel is. Never has the church had a bigger defender of its perversion than you, Gerald Flurry and Dr. Bob.
Oh yes, I knew we were not catholic like grandad and mom. And the nice little puppet in the big shell was Mary. etcetc you fool deserving to be a victim for eternity by choice.
ReplyDeleteNck
It's weird to me that Christian theology purports to be monotheistic even though an anthropologist studying it from outside would say it includes at least two gods, an inconsistently benevolent one and a malevolent trickster. Beyond that basic duality, the benevolent one includes more than one sub-entity. Depending on the sect, there may be two or three beings fused into one or the mirror image: one entity manifesting itself in up to three ways.
ReplyDeleteSparse polytheism, but polytheism nonetheless.
Retired Prof. Finally someone who sees the same humor as I intended in my original comment.
ReplyDeleteWell the distinguish mark of sociopaths is lack of humor.
Nck
It was all about the law
ReplyDeleteRomans 7:7 ..Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law...
So if WCG didn't teach The Law we wouldn't have known if we were sinning?
Don't worry nck, they are all about rewriting history. The WCG was a shitty organization and there's no reason to exaggerate their errors, because they were legion. They did teach Jesus whether these "nincompoops" want to admit it or not.
ReplyDeletekm
Nck,
ReplyDeleteI think Armstrong apologetics is a trigger for many into sociopathy even when some slight humor is added (this is my slight added humor). Many of the things you say are reminiscent of the propaganda we were told and the carefully crafted comments that provide plausible deniability (with enough exceptions the wcg was always able to somehow say "that's not what I said!" and synthesize it to a point somewhat acceptable if you were willing to argue it, but this was generally not the real belief). they often would say contradictory things too and apply the comment broadly or narrowly to placate the questioner. But, this elasticity would soon wear out and such questioners either quit the wcg or were forced to or exhausted into submission.
Their explanations are always convoluted. Looking at COGwa's booklet "the mystery of the Kingdom" they poke around and jabber about what some supposedly believe about the "when" of the kingdom, but it is not until page 18 of the booklet that they just say the Kingdom is only in the future and not today.
I suppose they are trying the sales technique of getting people into the pattern of saying "yes", "that's true", "that makes sense" by stating obvious things and then hope that builds confidence in their veracity before dropping their final piece of nonsense (with little elaboration and perhaps a plausible deniability out) before moving to more obvious yeses.
There is a palpable dishonesty in their whole approach. I think it sounds like you play games with Armstrongism for fun (though more terse of late). Your experience was vastly different from most. When someone compares Armstrongism with catholicism you will point out some differences , but the overall comparison is good (and unfair to catholicism). The language used in their government is not the same, but the structure itself was and the intrusion into members lives was much worse.
Most organizations that teach propaganda are into education (their own). Many have been educated into false concepts and beliefs.
Anyway, you are exasperating at times as I believe you intend, but my understanding is that you do not practice the teachings of HWA; if not it is because you found them largely false (I assume). And if you can still broadly defend the wcg to some extent you simply did not experience the wcg of most and are detached from its realities. Or maybe not.
KM,
ReplyDeleteThey taught Christ as Savior primarily. A future Savior. One who extends life. But, I never got the feel of One Who GAVE life. There was no teaching in CHrist Saving us now as sinners. And, loving us. We said some words sometimes about Christ living in us, but there was always the law. He was there to make us keep the law. I'm not sure that that qualifies as teaching Jesus or Christ.
I shudder to think that I remember talking with other teens how we revered "God", but didn't like hearing about Jesus. I know of no other church system that could pull off such a result.
Christianity is most definitely polytheistic, whether Trinitarian, Binitarian, and even Unitarian since they believe that Jesus is a god coming forth from the Father who has always existed. Still at least two gods.
ReplyDeleteI personally believe there are an untold number of gods, and we are destined to join that number.
km
10:32am You are only partially correct, if you were completely correct then the WCG would have taught wearing tassles.
ReplyDeleteThe WCG taught a mixture of old covenant and new covenant and they understood neither. imo
Protestantism, Catholicism and Orthodoxy teach new covenant to which they have no clue either.
km
Jim, of course you're entitled to your opinion, but being in the WCG for 25 years from 1967 to 1992, from the age of two, I personally learned about Jesus. I also learned to reject the WCG and HWA, but that's another story.
ReplyDeleteI remember Ron Dart often saying, when speaking of how the WCG taught that Protestants taught a false Jesus, that when he was a Southern Baptist he accepted the same Jesus that he now (at the time) worships, he has just learned more about him.
I'm sure most can say the same thing no matter their history.
Sorry, but what is going on in this thread is revisionist history.
km
Jim
ReplyDeleteYou seem like one of the good guys capable of arguing a point sensibly. 1st at least you admit that I exactly mirror "the propaganda" meaning I do not make stuff up.
2nd Your argument is filled with examples where you compare armstrongism with how you today feel it contrasted with what Christianity ought to be.
I'm sorry, but my point would be that on "page 18" cogwa clearly teaches that they believe that the kingdom is in the future. I'm sorry if a future detractors is frustrated about that fact and would find a person like me pointing "page 18" out exasperating.
It is true that I did not experience wcg as some frequent commenter in the decades that I associated and more like the silent majority like ASB or even Dennis.
I never comment on lcg, Thiel, ucg etc simply because I have no personal experience there.
I simply made an initial and truthful remark that in wcg theology Jesus and the OT logos are the same.
This blew some people's minds because they are not as broad minded or whatever as a person like retired Prof who is able to see what I see even if he didn't respond to mine but just made an observation as I did. Making observations is dealt with in a manner they accuse wcg of. So it seems "victims" are similar or perhaps the same as "the accused". I am not surprised since they were in a different bubble as I was.
Re catholicism. Yeah the "bread and wine" represented the same. Still extreme differences in interpretation like transforming of the wine during the ritual etc. It's kindergarten theology to know the difference. I do admit growing up in a Bible belt so my understanding about healing doctrines and doctors came earlier than most since the Bible belters suffered strokes of polio in streaks when I was little and I wanted "protection" against polio, a decision our wcg minister "left to my mother's conscious and relation to God" CLEARLY indicating that it was God's purpose to have us kids grow into adulthood and a desire that as adults us kids would be able to see eye to eye with my mother.
Suffice to say. We got the vaccinations.
Nck
Nck
km said: “ I personally believe there are an untold number of gods, and we are destined to join that number.”
ReplyDeleteCome again? So would you care to explain?
km 2:47 So if you’re correct re Christianity as a whole does any one or group truly understand the OC and NC then?
ReplyDelete10:01 and 10:15, most likely the same person so the answer to your questions is "figure it out for yourself". If you're really interested in the answer you can email me at Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
ReplyDeletekm
km 4:11: “figure it out for yourself”
DeleteNow that’s a fine example of 1 Peter 3:15 in action.
Ok now, today is the midst of the feast (for those using the rabbinic calendar). For those who are now unbelievers, or don't believe in a seven thousand year plan, whether literal or symbolic, please bear with me.
ReplyDeleteIn John 7:2 the Feast of tabernacles was near and Jesus' brothers told him to go up to Jerusalem and reveal himself to the world. John 7:4
But Jesus said it wasn't his time yet. John 7:8
Then about the midst of the feast Jesus went and revealed himself by teaching in the temple. John 7:14
Most, even in the cog, find little significance to this but I think there's much.
Remember Daniel 9:27? Many think this doesn't refer to Jesus but to the prince, but is there any significance to this "midst of the week" ending of a covenant? Remember Gal. 3 says the added covenant was only til the Seed came.
If there is a seven thousand year plan, why did God wait about four thousand years to send Jesus? Was any time earlier "not yet his time"? Why was there four thousand years til Jesus, then two thousand years before he returns to set up his Kingdom? That is if we really are living in the "end times".
Why does a Wednesday crucifixion make so much sense to many of us? Because it's the midst of the week. It's the fourth day of the week, and just as Jesus, most likely imo, died at the end of the fourth millennia, he also died at the end of the 14th day of the first month which imo was most likely the fourth day of the week.
So why is today significant? Being the midst of the feast, the fourth day, it's the day picturing Jesus coming to this earth.
km
I also believe that of any day in the year, the fourth day of the feast of tabernacles makes the most sense for Jesus' birth.
ReplyDeletekm
I watched the Nic Cage film Knowing a while back. It ended with the demise of our earth and a new planet being seeded by girls and boys from ours. It made me wonder what if everything that's going on down here has happened 100s or 1000s of times in the past or is happening on other planets right now and when it's all over will yet again on into the endless future?
ReplyDeleteKm,
ReplyDeleteWhich beach are you on?
Jim, Ft. Walton beach Florida.
ReplyDeleteAnon Oct 16 7:46
ReplyDeleteComments like yours is why I come to this blog. That comment is pure gold tried in the fire. Thank you for sharing your wise observations.
9:39
ReplyDeleteWhat number of your split personality is self congratulatory? Hilarious.
Nck
Wrong big time Nck.
ReplyDelete