One thing for sure if you are an employee of the Living Church of God and work at the glorious Headquarters of God's only work on the face of the earth today, you can rest assured that your job is NEVER secure, even if they slobberingly praised you in articles and member letters.
The latest to get shuffled, demoted and "promoted" is Scott Winnail. Once the glorious successor to Michael Germano, Living University's exiled former President, Winnial has had his wings clipped again. After Living Univerity's failed attempt to be accredited, Germano was sent packing and Winnail was put over the new and improved Living Education program.
Winnail has now been removed from Living Education's programs and as a speaker on the Tomorrow's World Now program. Winnail's new job is now overseeing the local Charlotte congregation of the Living Church of God, always a hotbed of problems. Plus, Charlotte's local pastor is suffering from health issues from lymphoma.
We have put on hold doing any more TWNow programs at this time. Dr. Scott Winnail moderated and coordinated the program, but we have moved him to the day-to-day responsibilities of serving the Charlotte congregation. Our pastor, Mr. John Strain, was recently diagnosed with lymphoma and will be “out of service” for an expected six months. Please remember him and his family in your prayers. This change does not allow time for Dr. Winnail’s role with TWNow or for the on-site Living Education program.A pretty convenient excuse to remove Winnail from his other jobs.
One thing for sure about the Living Church of God, it is still a complete mess.
from an LCG source
According to HWA weren't the GERMANOS supposed to invade the United States?? :-)
ReplyDeleteThey need to can Wallace Smith and Richard Ames from the TWNow program too! Smith is boring as hell and Ames is still spouting the same crapola he has said over the last 50 some years.
ReplyDeleteThis post has its facts wrong. It is not true that "Winnail was put over the new and improved Living Education program." When LU was disbanded, Gerald Weston brought Jonathan McNair to HQ to oversee the new program. Jonathan McNair, a man with no education beyond an Ambassador College degree in "theology." Neither Doug nor Scott Winnail ever had a significant role in overseeing the new Living Education program.
ReplyDeleteTWNow was never very popular except with wannabe-deacons who like to brown-nose the ministry. Strain's chemotherapy gave Weston a great opportunity to make better use of Scott Winnail. If Strain recovers, Scott can be sent to some other pastorate, and if Strain dies Scott is much better suited to be the local pastor in Charlotte than any of the other men who have held that position previously.
As for 8:39 AM, he seems to be confusing the Tomorrow's World telecast and the TWNow webcast. That's very easy to do, as the flagship LCG program is so antiquated that it might as well be called TWThen.
Thanks for clarifying. It is hard to keep track of who is doing what any more in the COG as they change positions constantly. There is no continuity whatsoever.
ReplyDeletemaybe you should get ur facts straight before publishing...oh, thas right: facts dont matter to a scoffer...
DeleteMagic 8-Ball says "Lots of jockeying for position behind the scenes at LCG HQ."
ReplyDeleteThere are several younger old men at LCG HQ who are competing to be the next one raised to Evangelist rank.
Scott Winnail may have thought he was in the running, but now that he has been sidelined to the local pastorate he is unlikely to advance further unless he gets a Regional Pastor gig and succeeds beyond anyone's expectations.
Jonathan McNair, son and nephew of WCG evangelists, already thinks of himself as Evangelist material, but he is neither bright nor very competent, and will only succeed where he can be "yes man" to someone over him.
Rod McNair, also son and nephew of WCG evangelists, was being groomed by RCM to replace Doug Winnail as CAD Director. Already he struts around like an evangelist, but after his bungling of the Scarborough situation he is probably on a fast-track to nowhere as soon as a Regional Pastor opening becomes available.
So who will it be? The WCG pattern is that Evangelists don't evangelize, they run major departments. This leaves Wally Smith, who is not just a department head but one of a few LCG pastors whose work actually involves evangelizing. Just as Doug Winnail's replacement will have to become an Evangelist if he isn't one already, watch for Wally to get the Evangelist nod when Richard Ames fades into retirement or takes his dirt nap.
"Our pastor, Mr. John Strain, was recently diagnosed with lymphoma and will be 'out of service' for an expected six months. Please remember him and his family in your prayers."
ReplyDeleteThat's odd. It's almost as though they know the god they worship is powerless to heal and that the prayers of their faithful avail nothing ... or something like that...
What's with this chemotherapy business? Why wouldn't they say that they EXPECT Mr. Strain to have made a full recovery by next Tuesday? If they believed what it says in the bible, if they believed their own propaganda preached from their pulpits about "healing," isn't that what they would expect, and at times like this, isn't this what they would say they expect?
Oh, right. But they don't say that because it's not what they expect. And it's not what they really believe. And why don't they really believe it? Because of experience. Experience with the reality that their god doesn't "heal" people in LCG, or in the COG movement, all their prayers notwithstanding, with any greater frequency as he "heals" people who pay no nevermind to their god. Which is not exactly a heartening prospect.
It's almost as though their god doesn't notice all the hoops they jump through to try to appease him and gain his favors. People who don't bother with any of that effort, who don't have anybody busy beseeching this god on their behalf, get "healed" at the same rate? What's up with that?
It's almost as though they're completely out of touch with reality. But then they go and let it slip that they actually know exactly what reality really is, and they're just lying liars instead.
Scott Winnail had a TWNov video posted last year where he explicitly stated that the LORD/YHVH is Christ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4fIqe-bK7M). The title of the video is "The Feast of Trumpets - TWNow Episode 78" and his comment starts at 5:10 mark. The verse he was reading is Lev 23:2 where the LORD is in all caps (YHVH). IIRC, the WCG teaching was YHVH is God the Father. Is Scott's comment the official teaching of LCG? What is his proof to support his statement? I asked him last year in the comment section but my questions were ignored and not published.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Scott's proof is Jer 23:5-6, “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will raise to David a branch of righteousness; a king shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; Now this is his name by which he will be called: THE LORD/YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
What most people fail to realize is almost the exact verses are found 10 chapters later but instead of the Messiah it is referring to Jerusalem, Jer 33:14-16, 'Behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah: In those days and at that time I will cause to grow up to David a branch of righteousness; he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD/YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.’
Are we going to worship Jerusalem? Is Jerusalem our God and Creator? In the messianic age, Jerusalem is going to reflect the glory of God. The above verses are examples of THEOPHORY. People or things that represent God are called God:
1. Judges 6:24 altar is called by Gideon 'YHVH is Peace'.
2. Gen 33:20 altar is called by Jacob 'El Elohe Yisrael' literally 'Lord, the God of Israel'.
3. Ex 21:6, 22:8 in both verses, the word judges comes from Heb Ha-Elohim. The human judges who are judging according to the word of God are literally called God/Elohim!
4. Ps 8:5 in this verse, the word angels comes from Heb elohim.
5. Ex 6:30, 7:1 Moses is made Elohim to Pharaoh
How do one reconcile seemingly contradicting verses such as 2 Samuel 24:1-2 and 1 Chronicles 21:1-2? Satan, representing God, moved David to number Israel. The action was as if God Himself actually moved David to number Israel! No one would call or consider Satan God!
Anon 1052 Interesting. Like my mother's church that spends time with lengthy prayer lists but believes the healing is in the hands of the doctor (presumably with God's help).
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, they'll skip over James 5:14 as if it wasn't there. I said to my mother, if Paul wrote that (and not James) they'd probably refer everyone to their elder, who would need to carry around gallons of olive oil.
the god they worship is powerless to heal
ReplyDeleteA friend was so confident that God promised to heal that he said unless his wife was healed he would stop believing. He changed his mind after counselling, when a pastor convinced him that God doesn't heal old people with dementia.
"the WCG teaching was YHVH is God the Father." -- not so, I thought.
ReplyDeleteWhere is butt sucking Cieselka? Did he get moved out also? I haven’t heard his name in quite some time.
ReplyDeleteNOTE: If anyone has a contact for John Strain, I would deeply appreciate it. Email or call. John and I were very good friends and I have been looking for him for years. I would like to visit with him in Charlotte, which is not far, if possible especially with this diagnosis. Please help if you have any information to put me in touch with him. This is really important to me if anyone can help
ReplyDeleteThanks!
Hey Dennis,
DeleteI don’t know if you are opposed to using this route to contact him, but if you go to the lcg.org page and click the “find a congregation link” there is a tab that will allow you to search by minister, and then email them directly. Perhaps you could get in contact with him that way.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteScott Winnail...explicitly stated that the LORD/YHVH is Christ...IIRC, the WCG teaching was YHVH is God the Father. Is Scott's comment the official teaching of LCG?
November 22, 2019 at 12:27 PM
********************
According to my understanding Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God taught Jesus Christ was the LORD or YHWH of the Old Testament (see "Where is God the Father in the Old Testament" by Lawson Briggs in the July 1974 issue of The Good News magazine as an example). Likewise the Living Church of God continues this teaching today (see "Who was the God of the Old Testament?" by Roderick C. Meredith in the January-February 2009 issue of Tomorrow's World magazine as another example). WCG and its offshoots are predominantly binitarian.
I understand the late Kenneth Westby, who was disfellowshipped from WCG in the 1970s, and founder of the Association of Christian Development (ACD) was a unitarian and promoted this view of God via his "One God Seminar" conferences. This is also reason for the recent controversy in the United Church of God over Mark Mickelson, who has now moved over to Rick Railston's Pacific Church of God (PCG), and his sermons that reflected a unitarian view similar to Westby's in my opinion (see PCG's FAQ paper on "The God of the Old Testament doctrine" that were not in accord with the official view of UCG.
Personally, I'm of the view that LORD or YHWH can be used by either God the Father or Jesus Christ, the Son of God, in the Old Testament so it depends on the context of the Biblical passage to discern Who is being referred to be it God the Father, the Son of God, or both. This sharing of divine titles is carried on into the NT and again context is key to discern Who is being referred to in any scriptural passage. For instance, I recall hearing in a sermon by Rick Railston of PCG (obviously influenced by Mickelson) asserting that the LORD or YHWH of Zechariah 14:3-5 refers to God the Father not the Lord Jesus Christ, which I disagreed with. Likewise he claimed in another sermon that the "Chief Shepherd" of 1 Peter 5:4 can only refer to God the Father, but once again I disagreed with him. In both incidents I explained my reasons why I believe both passages refer to Jesus Christ. I wasn't successful in convincing him, however, to the obvious errors Mickelson's view lends itself to in assuming that every time LORD or YHWH is referred to it can only exclusively refer to God the Father in the Old Testament.
This is Dave Pack
ReplyDeleteI'm posting here on Banned to let readers know that I've ordered my gardeners to plant two trees next to HWAs grave.
Cheers
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThis is Dave Pack
I'm posting here on Banned to let readers know that I've ordered my gardeners to plant two trees next to HWAs grave.
Cheers
Reminds me of a client telling me that back in the day when they went to Bob Jones University, Bob Jones the First, counterpart to HWA at the time and he hated HWA I hear, declared that it would be over his dead body that there ever be any students kissing "on this campus". Well he died and his grave is on the campus. Guess where some students choose to now traditionally go to kiss? :)
One of the fascinating quirks of human behavior is even though we can’t agree on what anyone is thinking today, we are all experts on what people were thinking 2000 years ago
ReplyDeleteIt saddens me to read about Wally Smith being boring. One of the factors that led me out of Living was the realization that formerly good speakers had lost it.
ReplyDeleteThe last sermon I heard by Wally Smith was the fear of God which consisted of him repeating the phrase in different voice tones and different word emphasis over and over and over and ....
Wally - if you read this - get out and go where you can use your brains again and regain your skills. Your booklet on evolution just repeats the same old stuff and totally ignores DNA.
Nobody who believes the gap theory addresses what God did for 14 billion years - play solitaire?
I don’t believe evolution has all the answers, but no creation theory fits either- we still have a lot to learn and should be more humble and open about it.
TLA,
ReplyDeleteGerald Schroeder wrote an article about The Age of The Universe which he tries to prove that 14/15 billion years and 6 days are both correct - http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx.
I just thought the article might interest you in case you haven't come across it yet. If not, just ignore this comment. Please don't ask me about it because my puny mind can't fully comprehend it.
Shalom
Interestingly, Malm the Shining Light Blob and prophetic loser posted this news on Shining Light Blog earlier in the week but mistakenly thought it was Doug being demoted. He wrote a long rant about it, about Doug's demise and imminent departure and the power struggle at LCG. It was humorous to read his fallacious rant. As expected, by that afternoon he had taken the article down and the next day replaced it with the news about Scott. Oops!
ReplyDeleteI know both Doug and Scott, and despite their continued existence in LCG, they are good men lacking the malice that elevates others to their egotistical positions.
I wonder why Dave Pack or Gerald Flurry have not moved HWA's remains to their own grounds, as the ultimate validation of their ministries. You just know that if it were legal and possible one of them would have done it already!
ReplyDeleteBB
Anon Nov 22 @8:49pm
ReplyDeleteThanks for the clarification regarding WCG's teachings. My recollection is the Ps 110:1 where the YHVH/LORD=God the Father and 'Adonai'/'Lord'=Jesus. I enclosed Adonai in quotes because the text is not really Adonai but adoni/adonee which refers to a human master and should be translated lord or master. This verse does not support binitarianism.
The above verse is what Mt 22:42-45 quoted which RCM mentioned in the TW article (pp5-6), "This scripture had to be describing two personalities in God’s Family — one greater than the other. And, as should be obvious to us, David’s immediate “Lord”—the one who later became Jesus of Nazareth — was told to sit at the right hand of the Father until it was time for Him to become King of kings."
The GN article you mentioned is just a single page and most verses used are NT. The TW article is longer but, similarly, most verses are NT. The problem is how can one prove Jesus was the god of the OT when NT verses are sprinkled to support the author's christology. Here's my take on the OT verses the two articles said support binitarianism:
1. Gen 1:1 (TW) - Elohim can be plural or singular (plural in quality or majestic plural). When referring to the God of Israel, Elohim is almost always singular. In 1 Ki 18:39b, "The LORD, He is God" is from the Hebrew "YHVH hu haelohim". The Hebrew 'hu' denotes 3rd person singular pronoun (see Strong's H1931). If it's plural, it is 'hem' or 'hema' which would result in 'The LORD, They are God'. Also, Isa 45:5 states that there is no God/Elohim besides YHVH.
2. Gen 1:26 (GN, TW) - read the next verse, it says 'And God/Elohim created man in His image'. The Heb translated created is in singular form. If 'let us make man' indicates a numerical plurality, it would be followed by, 'And they created man in their image'.
3. Gen 14:18 (GN) - there are only 2 verses I can find in the OT where Melchizedek is mentioned - Gen 14:18 and Ps 110:4. The analogy between Melchizedek and David focuses on the king’s priestly role, it does not imply that Melchizedek was an eternal priest. The Hebrew term le‘olam, commonly rendered in English as “forever,” is not necessarily always synonymous with “eternal.” It is frequently used with the meaning “for a very long time,” or “for an indefinite period,” or, as in Ps 110:4, to indicate the normal life-span of an individual (cf Ex 21:6). When Christians read these 2 OT verses, most read these with NT filters. They read these as how the book of Hebrews describes Melcizedek - without father, mother, genealogy, beginning and end of days. Tanakh does not support such descriptions and never identifies Melchizedek as divine.
4. Gen 18 (TW) - Verse 2 identifies the 3 individuals as men. One of which represents YHVH (v22). Messenger can either be man or angel who is sent (Heb malak, literally one who is sent) to represent God. Malak, when speaking or acting in behalf of God, is called God.
Another example is Gen 22 where an angel is speaking to Abraham (v15) as if God is speaking (v18, 'because you obeyed My voice'). Abraham hears the actual voice of the angel.
Another example is Ex 3 where an angel appeared to Moses in the burning bush (v2). Then God called from the burning bush (v4).
Another example is Judges 6 where an angel appeared to Gideon (v12) which he initially mistook for another man (v13). Verse 14 describes YHVH turning to him. The angel is the one who actually turned to him.
All of the encounters with God in Tanakh are through intermediaries except for Moses (Num 12:8). Although the meeting was described as face to face, we don't know exactly how it happened because in Ex 33:18-23 God covered Moses with His hand and Moses saw only His back. In Ex 33:20, But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” How did Abraham and Gideon survived their encounters with God IF the being was actually God, and not a malak?
cont.
ReplyDelete5. Ex 24:9-11 (TW) see explanation above
6. Dan 3:25-26 (GN) son of God refers to angels (see Job 1:6). In Ex 4:22, "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn." Surely no one worships an angel or the nation of Israel.
7. Dan 7:13-14 (GN) Christians who have read the gospels before Daniel 7 immediately associate Jesus to Daniel's 'like a son of man'. But if one reads Daniel 7 first, the conclusion is different. Daniel 7 is unique because it comes with interpretation. Daniel could not figure out the dream/vision and asked one of those who stood by (an angel, see Zech 3:4-5) for the interpretation (v15-16). The interpretation is given in Dan 7:17, 18, 22, 27; the 4 beasts are 4 kings and the holy ones of the Most High shall receive the Kingdom and possess it forever. In Ex 19:5-6, the Israelites are identified as the chosen people of God, made a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. The holy ones of the Most High (Dan 7:18, 22, 27) are the righteous children of Israel. Dan 7:13 uses 'like' to follow the convention used in the earlier verses describing the beasts. Since the 4 beasts can either be kings or kingdoms, the 'son of man' is likewise. Who is the king of the children of Israel in the messianic age? The Mashiach. Does this verse support the idea that the 'son of man' or Mashiach is divine? No, in Eze 2:1, Ezekiel is called son of man. What about the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven? It didn't say coming 'on' the clouds of heaven. Remember that Dan 7 is a vision and should not be taken literally. In Num 10:34, the cloud of YHVH protected the children of Israel in the wilderness desert. Dan 7:13 is about the Maschiach representing the nation of Israel coming before God under His protection.
What Tanakh teaches about YHVH:
1. YHVH is our only Savior (Isa 43:11) and Redeemer (Isa 63:16). The NT writers hijacked these and made Jesus as savior and redeemer. What sin was removed by the passover lamb? Did the blood of the lamb protect all of the household or just the firstborn? Does Tanakh teach vicarious atonement? No, read the entire Ezekiel 18.
2. YHVH's relationship with His people is both Father (Isa 63:16) and Husband (Isa 54:5). YHVH is Father to those who are born in the Jewish faith and a Husband to those who have joined themselves to YHVH (Isa 56:6). Again, NT writers appropriated this.
3. YHVH is the only Elohim (Isa 45:5, "I am the LORD/YHVH, and there is no other; There is no God/Elohim besides Me.")
Cognac Willie said...
ReplyDeleteI know both Doug and Scott, and despite their continued existence in LCG, they are good men lacking the malice that elevates others to their egotistical positions.
If they really were "good men" they would not have gone along with LCG's abominable treatment of the Scarboroughs. Doug Winnail in particular, as head of LCG Church Administration, could have exercised his authority to see that truth was upheld.
He didn't. Maybe that's a "good man" by ACOG standards, but by real world or Christian standards it's awful bad.
To anonymous
DeleteAfter reading some of what you have written
I conclude that you are and angry bitter jealous contentious extremely unhappy person. Who could ever listen to what you spout? Pure negativity. Whatever happened to bless those who persecute you? What a rotten heart urgh.
Dennis,
ReplyDeleteI knew John Strain in the early 70s and always believed he was a good man. I'm sorry to learn that he ended up in LCG and especially sorry to learn of his condition.
If you get in touch with him, please tell him that some of his former congregants remember him fondly and will pray for him.
I will 454. No luck yet. Wrote LCG as well bit so far no response
ReplyDeleteNovember 23, 2019 at 2:38 PM and 2:39 PM
ReplyDelete********************
You might find the comments by Yes and No to HWA of interest. He's not posted anything of late now, but I've always found his posts insightful when he does. His description of God the Father as the "ultimate" God and Jesus Christ as the "dynamic" God was of help to me.
Anon Nov 26 @11:50pm
ReplyDeleteANGEL OF THE LORD (Hebrew "malak YHVH")
Haggai is called 'a messenger of the LORD' (Hag 1:13, Hebrew "malak YHVH"). The priest is 'the messenger of the LORD of hosts' (Mal 2:7, Hebrew "malak YHVH sabaot"). There are free online interlinears you can use to check the actual Hebrew behind the text. Malak, literally one who is sent, can either be an angel or man. The angel is simply a messenger to whom God, in whom all power resides, has entrusted a specific mission (1 Chronicles 21:15, 27; Zechariah 1:12-17). God sends angels to act in His name, not in their own names. The angel who appears to Abraham does not swear by his own name but merely conveys God’s message: “‘By Myself I have sworn,’ says the LORD/YHVH” (Genesis 22:16). To Jacob an angel says: “Why is it that you ask my name?” (Genesis 32:29), and to Manoah an angel says: “Why is it that you ask my name, seeing it is hidden?” (Judges 13:18). Did Jacob really see God Himself and not a malak (Gen 32:30)? The words of a messenger of God may be attributed directly to God is evident from Isaiah 7:10, which reads: “And the LORD/YHVH spoke again to Ahaz.” Ahaz received this message through Isaiah, but it is nevertheless reported as if God Himself spoke directly to him because a messenger represents the one who sends him. Therefore, an action of an angel may be credited directly to God, who gave him the message.
Understanding what a malak is helps clear the following 2 passages.
2 Samuel 24:1-2 Again the anger of the LORD/YHVH was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
1 Chr 21:1-2 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
Satan, on behalf of God, moved David. His action is as if God Himself was the one who moved David. Satan is a malak!
THE ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE (Hebrew "malak panav/panim")
The Hebrew translated 'presence' in Isa 63:9 is 'panav' which any interlinear would link Strong's H6440 with the meaning 'face'. The term 'face' (Heb panim) is never used for the Heb tselem, 'likeness' or 'image'. Panim is used here to mean “presence” (cf. Genesis 4:16; Isaiah 59:2; Jonah 1:3, 10). The phrase 'of His face' is used in a possessive and not a qualitative sense. Angel of His presence, literally 'angel of His face', is simply the angel whom God appoints as His emissary to act as the representative of His presence in the cause of Israel.
Read what God said to Aaron and Miriam in Num 12:6-8:
Then He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD/YHVH, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream. Not so with My servant Moses; he is faithful in all My house. I speak with him face to face, even plainly, and not in dark sayings; and he sees the form of the LORD/YHVH. Why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?”
In Exo 33:14, And He said, “My Presence (Hebrew 'panay', same root Strong's H6440) will go with you, and I will give you rest.” Moses was not satisfied and asked to see God's glory (v18) and God allowed it (v19-23). In verse 20, But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”