Here's a suggestion....just saying.
Pastoral Development Program
We completed a most wonderful session of the Pastoral Development Program yesterday. We are impressed with the caliber, zeal and character of the 32 men and women who came from around the world. We look forward to their continued service to our congregations.
We continually refine our presentations to offer the most relevant material needed to do the work of the ministry in speaking, doctrine, counseling, integrity, time management, administration and much more. We believe that we have provided effective tools and guidance for those who came to learn and interact with us and with one another.
In the almost two weeks of the program, we were able to spend a lot of personal time with our new ministers and ministerial candidates. We appreciated having two long-time pastors, Randy D’Alessandro and Vince Szymkowiak, provide healthy reinforcement and a positive spirit to the program. I recorded podcasts with three of the attendees that will be available online in the coming weeks.
On the last day of the program, in the question and answer session, we discussed the next 25 years of the United Church of God and what we could do reinvent ourselves to become more effective and relevant. If you have any thoughts about these subjects, please write me directly at victor_kubik@ucg.org .
The next 25 years? Herb went way overboard with his 'we only have 3 - 5 short years left.' but this is the other extreme. Most members do not have 25 years of life left, since the majority are in their seventies. But this is unsurprising since the UCG is by design, the Spiritually Flat Church of God.
ReplyDeleteThat's nice!
ReplyDeleteI'm going to submit they look over their Passover and Pentecost questions:
https://wulfstein.wordpress.com/2019/11/15/a-critique-of-ucgs-passover-i/
https://wulfstein.wordpress.com/2019/11/08/a-critique-of-ucgs-pentecost-i/
ReplyDelete“Vic Kubik Wants Your Input On What UCG Can Do To Reinvent Its Self.”
The UCG has been working on reinventing itself all along. The UCG already has the godlessness, which seems to have been a priority. The UCG already has the X-mass weekend stuff. Now the UCG just needs to slip in the ham-eating and the Sunday-keeping somehow. Then, the UCG will have reinvented itself just like the WCG reinvented itself as GCI under the apostate Tkaches and their goon Victor Kubik.
UCG just needs a little more Jelly...
ReplyDeleteCounseling? Hah, they'll ruin your life in a minute!
ReplyDeleteA chocolate-covered turd is still a turd. Armstrongism ceased to have any relevance once the Berlin wall came down. The two biggest demographic groups who still can connect to that era are the boomers, which as a whole are not particularly connected with organized religion, and their parents (i.e., World War II era adults which are rapidly dying off).
ReplyDeleteThe only way UCG will ever be relevant is to abandon Armstrongism and morph into a self-help organization. Gen X and Millennials do not care about Christianity or organized religion. Just about anyone under the age of 50 who UCG could recruit is now capable of executing a simple google search. They will learn about Armstrong, his corruption, his incest, and his doom and gloom. And they will run far away from any xCG once they do.
The xCGs are in a death spiral, circling the drain, with nowhere to go but down. An ignominious end to an insignificant cult.
You cannot organize a personal spirituality no matter how that spirituality finds expression. Organizations cannot thrive on those given to inner work personally when they need outward support for others to do that work for them. Religion is what organizations pour into one's head. What to believe. How, when and where to express it and how much to give in support both in time and personal finances. Spirituality is an inside job and doesn't require or is even comfortable with any of that.
ReplyDeletePersonally, the experience of organized religion, that of my youth and the WCG experience as well as the phenomenon of Televangelism of the past 50 years and Prosperity Gospels has provided me with the skepticism, not just of those expressions of religion, but all of it.
Whether being an agnostic as I don't know or an atheist as in without any of it, the results for me are in.
950 is exactly right in their evaluation of the WCG and all its splinters tiny part in all this. Tiny in any positive meaning for humans and huge in the dose of skepticism they also have provided for those familiar with it all.
Someone one recently said that "If being hurt by church causes you to lose faith in God, then you faith was in people, not God." I am sure that could be so for some or many. It is not so with myself in all this experience with WCG. The chaos and scandal in WCG year after year in one form or another while in ministry from 1972 to 1998, personally forced me to rethink interests outside of the Bible and problems within that I had dropped because of my faith. Faith restrictions in considering other ways of thinking and belief in many areas of life are the number one reason people get stuck. Organizations are designed to keep one stuck in one way of being, thinking and living. There are many ways to do all those and do them well outside of organized religion no matter what is taught in the Book.
In short, my "problem" was and is the Book and not the people, though many were indeed "a vexation of spirit" to be sure and one form of it all being out and away from is one of my better decisions in life. Going into it was simply a reflection of being naïve in my youth and it was after all the 60's. I am also not "mad at God" for I find no proof of any to be mad at.
Anyway, spot on 950. UCG, RCG, PCG and LMNOP are all doomed and the part of the world they all "went them into" with Good News and an effective and real spirituality, miniscule after 90 years.
In 25 years the UCG has shrunk by 2/3's of its original size, (about 21,000) to about 7,000. Using those numbers as a guide that would mean that 25 years from now the UCG will have shrunken an addition 2/3's to 2,000-2,500. Then again maybe that is a conservative guess considering that a high percentage of the membership is currently in there 60's 70's and 80' and most of them won't be alive 25 years from now.
ReplyDeleteHow many members of the UCG council of elders will be alive 25 years from now? The latest picture I have seen most looked like they where at least in their 60's or 70's maybe 1 or 2 are in their 50's.
ReplyDeleteAnd too...I predict the last words of Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland and all "Soon coming" and " we shall not all die" types will be "My God, my God...Why hast thou forsaken me???"
ReplyDeleteWow, this is unheard of. It's quite radical for a sitting President of UCG to put an open question out there with his email address attached. I hope the younger generations within UCG realize how unusual this is.
ReplyDeleteIt's quite radical for a sitting President of UCG to put an open question out there with his email address attached.
ReplyDeleteDon't be naive. The public address victor_kubik@ucg.org is maintained by Mr. Kubik's executive secretary, who forwards to Mr. Kubik's private address those messages worthy of his attention. By the time Mr. Kubik sees e-mail sent to that public address, someone has attached to the e-mail a copy of the sender's tithing record and CAD file, and possibly even a draft reply. What about non-members who don't have such records and files? Those e-mails go straight to the Personal Correspondence Department to be answered or ignored as deemed appropriate.
what we could do reinvent ourselves to become more effective and relevant
ReplyDeleteDear Mr. Kubik,
1. Follow the example of the first-century Christians by abolishing the paid ministry. Notice how the number of men eager to be ministers decreases when ministry once again becomes "ministering to" rather than "collecting from" the brethren.
2. Follow the example of the first-century Christians in how they handled the scriptural tithing requirement after the Temple was destroyed. Explain this example with doctrinal and historical honesty, and accept the consequences of what money will come and where it must go.
3. Once points 1 and 2 are accomplished, your view of the problem will almost certainly change. Certainly there will be fewer men seeking to "reinvent" your church, as there won't be a big pot of money attached to the reinvention. See how the problem looks when money is no longer a motivator, and act accordingly.
Alternatively, you could follow a well-trodden example that will bring in the bucks: Cut sermons to 30 minutes maximum. Replace "special music" with a Praise Band of contemporary pop musicians performing throughout the service. Encourage attendees to wear shorts to church when weather permits, and embrace Hawaiian shirts. Start teaching that the biblical healing herb known in Hebrew as kaneh-bosm is actually cannabis.
Whether you follow the first recommendations or the alternative, your group is small enough (in fact smaller than hundreds of local megachurches around the world) that you could save money and encourage unity by getting rid of local Sabbath sermons, and instead have one central Sabbath sermon streamed each week to all of your congregations.
United have already tried your point no 1... getting rid of the paid ministry... their now called Cogwa.
Delete7:15 said: “the biblical healing herb known in Hebrew as kaneh-bosm is actually cannabis.”
DeleteReally?! That’s interesting! I’ll have to check that out.
Like the "Man In the High Castle" television series, I , Tonto can time travel into the future and see the results.
ReplyDeleteI saw all of the COG leaders, Pack, Thiel, Flurry, Weinland etc and witnessed their last words while on their death beds.
They each said but one word, ...
ROSEBUD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For anyone puzzled by this post , see...
https://www.quora.com/What-does-Rosebud-mean-in-Citizen-Kane
That is not Kubik’s personal email address. That one is entirely separate from this one. He has staff read the emails to this address and then forward on comments that they deem pertinent. So don’t imagine he really cares what your opinions are.
ReplyDeleteI hope there was a seminar or session, on "HOW TO GIVE A GOOD FUNERAL"...
ReplyDeleteor perhaps "HOW TO COUNSEL PEOPLE WHO ARE IN HOSPICE".
Funerals will be the number one activity and social event , and most unifying "happening" for the COGS, unless it is a Flurry function, where even relatives are not allowed to "be around" other COG relatives even at a funeral.
"A chocolate-covered turd is still a turd. Armstrongism ceased to have any relevance once the Berlin wall came down..."
ReplyDeleteArmstrongism ceased to have any relevance after the Battle of Stalingrad signaled that Hitler wasn't a character found prophesied in the pages of the bible after all.
Armstrongism ceased to have any relevance after Herb's prophecies failed when the Great Tribulation didn't materialize in 1972 as gleefully promised.
Armstrongism ceased to have any relevance on a rolling 3-5 year and 10-20 year basis, as those frequently repeated prophetic utterances all failed as well.
Armstrongism ceased to have any relevance when Herb took his dirt nap.
Armstrongism ceased to have any relevance when the Berlin wall came down.
And 30 years later, it's even more irrelevant than that.
Yet there are still fools out there trying to "reinvent" it.
Anon 6:44
ReplyDeleteHow do you know ? I didn't realise UCG was run along the lines of the C.I.A. What is a CAD file? on the membership? Is UCG that well organised ?
Naive one
CAD has always been a tool that the COG used to keep track of members, their tithing records, every letter they have ever written to the church, their attendance record. Ministerial visits, Deacon notes. Etc. it is and has always been extensive it the information gathered on members.
ReplyDeleteThe fire has all but gone out by this point in time.
ReplyDeleteAt the time slot in which I first signed up for the internet, back around Y2K, I had no idea there were such organizations as UCG, PCG, LCG, etc. From family members who were still part of the CG movement, I knew that the old WCG had become a mainstream Christian church, but that there was an emergent group that stuck to the original doctrines (UCG). There was then a plethora of what were known as "dissident" sites, and any number of angry baby boomers who, post 1995, were attempting to put their lives together after having realized how much had been taken from them over the years. Highly intelligent people who could have been earning well into the 6 figures throughout their lives were struggling, and in many cases, had even lost all of their friends when they left. There was much anger, and flaming, and many of these folk had embraced a radical new vocabulary
As the splinters took off, most of the splinter members avoided the dissident sites, per the instructions of their leaders. But, then many of the initial hopes members had for their splinters began to wear thin, and quite predictably, we started to see tales of the same types of historic abuses documented by new posters on the sites. After the failure of so many proclamations constructed along the lines of 3-5 years, what little sense of urgency remained after 1975 became difficult to perpetuate. And, let's face it! Most thinking people would never submit to the practices associated with Armstrongism without a healthy dose of fear coercing them. This is not a religious philosophy of love, it is a religion based on redefining love as being extreme and fanatical law-keeping, with all who don't comply becoming expendible.
The fire has gone out in other areas as well. Passion for the sabbath has waned, with many observing it as simply a day off, doing whatever they please. With microscopic congregations, and taped sermons, how would anyone even expect a sense of urgency and enthusiasm? Plus, the leaders continue to exacerbate the shrinkage by expelling members rather than utilizing even the most basic conflict resolution techniques which would retain a solid and stable membership base. As the prophecy mold continues to fail, most members are not able to be manipulated with new wrinkles, alleged "new" understanding, and authoritarian beat downs. They can plainly see that the end time messages which they are financing with their tithes are all but invisible. And, when you have a Vic Kubik continually raising questions as reported above, it does anything but instill confidence in "the work".
I believe that a very high percentage of the readers, and possibly even bloggers, here at Banned, are now actually CG members who would prefer that their splinter return to the old glory days of original WCG, but who are continually disillusioned with the aimless directions in which they and other splinter groups are travelling, and in many cases the abusive authority which continues to oppress them.
The pool of posters has dramatically morphed over the past twenty years. To the extent that this indicates the further decline of Armstrongism, I see it as a good thing, a win. It often presents problems in terms of trying to relate, but I can hang with that, knowing that it's for the greater good.
BB
CAD files on the membership ? C.A.D ? Doesn't CAD stand for? Computer Aided Design?
ReplyDeleteChurch Adminustratuin department
ReplyDeleteThe fall of the Berlin Wall and the creation of the euro currency went far to convince HWA fans that his prophetic scenario was basically sound, just mis-dated. If in the next few months we see Brexit fail and the UK remains within the EU, this may challenge the faith of some Armstrongites, or will at the very least convince them that Christ's return won't come anytime soon. If the UK does pull out of the EU, this will help the die-hards believe "He Was Right." Similarly, if Germany becomes the first among equals and the bully of the EU, while the UK remains separate, ACOG members will be able to hold on to the notion that HWA's prophetic scenario may come to its conclusion imminently.
ReplyDelete7:15 said Follow the example of the first-century Christians by abolishing the paid ministry
ReplyDeleteAlso follow the example of the first-century Christians by abolishing the sabbath
read your bibles: Paul abolished the Sabbath! [Col. 2:16]
The Jehovah's Witnesses get it: No sabbaths, new moons, holy days, food prohibitions, paid ministry...
They are doing much better than dying armstrongism because they emulate early Christianity!
No one understands the greatest teacher hwa if one cannot explain the experiment Google performed on the world by the secret introduction of Pokémon go.
ReplyDeleteThis experiment of data extraction by herding people to a place of joy through mass manipulation was performed first by hwa for the Cia during the Cold War and now God who was killed is reborn through his son Google to lead the world into the glorious world tomorrow of surveillance capitalism.
Thank you hwa for your 100 percent correct predictions so far toward Babylon.
Nck
Nck
ReplyDeleteI suggest you don't post on Banned while drunk.
4:51
ReplyDeleteYou don't see the connection between the Pokémon go and FOT social experiments?
I know, sitting in folding chairs for hours based on a just a promise of happiness, paying ten times the price was your ultimate dream, as was the Cia herding experiment of consumer behavior for Pokémon go.
Oh you prototype of consumer behavior experiment in denial.
Data collection was so primitive and sophisticated at the same time, already during the Cold War, as compared to modern surveillance capitalism.
Bwaha drunk I'm called...... as I lay out the latest from Harvard.
Its sad to witness the debri of a decomissioned experiment in social behavior within a controlled environment.
Like the drunk French soldiers in Paris after Waterloo.
Nck
Anonymous Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe fall of the Berlin Wall and the creation of the euro currency went far to convince HWA fans that his prophetic scenario was basically sound, just mis-dated. If in the next few months we see Brexit fail and the UK remains within the EU, this may challenge the faith of some Armstrongites, or will at the very least convince them that Christ's return won't come anytime soon. If the UK does pull out of the EU, this will help the die-hards believe "He Was Right." Similarly, if Germany becomes the first among equals and the bully of the EU, while the UK remains separate, ACOG members will be able to hold on to the notion that HWA's prophetic scenario may come to its conclusion imminently.
November 24, 2019 at 11:58 AM
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Irrespective whether Brexit succeeds or fails and the UK leaves or remains within the EU I'm of the view that the Beast Empire is rising out of Europe and will ultimately be headed by the Beast emperor, his 10 vice-regents and the False Prophet who will enforce a "mark" all over the world with the assistance of man-made technology. Whether Germany takes the helm of this Beast empire or not is moot. The Bible provides the sign posts we're to look for not HWA's speculative interpretations.
Cannabis and god.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.cannabisculture.com/content/1996/05/01/1090/
11.59 AM
ReplyDeleteIt's JW guy again. The JW dissident sites paint a bleak picture of their religion. Herbs splinters treat members like 10 year olds, the JWs treat members like 5 year olds.
Why do you post here if you believe that JW is the true church?
Hope your beliefs make you happy there, 9:40. The line of thinking you just outlined screwed up large blocks of most of our lives. It was used to extort big bucks from us, derail our educations, destroy our families, and make us pariahs. And in spite of the fact that it ended up never happening, it is still being used on people the same way.
ReplyDeleteThere is probably no hope for the people who are in their 70s and 80s, have believed it all their lives and are holding fast, but if someone in their 30s realizes that it's a kkk (krock ka krap) there is time for recovery and ability to lead a good life. I've been able to experience so much good in the 44 years since it was revealed to me that it's just not going to happen. There is always good and bad that happens in life, and humans have an amazing innate ability to deal with bad so that goodness prevails. Being motivated predominantly by negatives does not bring the goodness and wholesomeness into your life as motivation through positives will do.
People still fearmonger. They say, "Watch out, BB". However, I'm informed by the attitudes and behavior of some of the people who were in the concert audience at the Vegas shooting. People in their 60s and 70s were laying on top of younger ones, shielding their bodies from the bullets and telling them, "Hey, I've lived my life. You still have yours to live." I also see things a little differently because every time I've ever gotten on my bike, I've known that you pick up the tab for that lifestyle on your last ride.
BB
Byker Bob said . . .
DeleteHope your beliefs make you happy there, 9:40. The line of thinking you just outlined screwed up large blocks of most of our lives. It was used to extort big bucks from us, derail our educations, destroy our families, and make us pariahs. And in spite of the fact that it ended up never happening, it is still being used on people the same way.
There is probably no hope for the people who are in their 70s and 80s, have believed it all their lives and are holding fast, but if someone in their 30s realizes that it's a kkk (krock ka krap) there is time for recovery and ability to lead a good life. I've been able to experience so much good in the 44 years since it was revealed to me that it's just not going to happen. There is always good and bad that happens in life, and humans have an amazing innate ability to deal with bad so that goodness prevails. Being motivated predominantly by negatives does not bring the goodness and wholesomeness into your life as motivation through positives will do.
People still fearmonger. They say, "Watch out, BB". However, I'm informed by the attitudes and behavior of some of the people who were in the concert audience at the Vegas shooting. People in their 60s and 70s were laying on top of younger ones, shielding their bodies from the bullets and telling them, "Hey, I've lived my life. You still have yours to live." I also see things a little differently because every time I've ever gotten on my bike, I've known that you pick up the tab for that lifestyle on your last ride.
November 25, 2019 at 6:45 AM
********************
Did you mean to address your response to 11:58 AM Byker Bob? I simply gave a summary of my personal beliefs regarding Biblical prophecy as outlined by the apostle John in Revelation. It has nothing to do with HWA’s outrageous speculations, gross misinterpretations and proof-texting and/or reliance on whether the Americans and British are modern-day descendants of Israel or the Germans are modern-day descendants of Assyria or Britain will leave the European Union or Sunday is the mark of the Beast. I’m not seeking to spread fear or steal money from others or suppress their potential by coercion as HWA and his cult followers have to so many all over the world, including to me and those I love. This is why I closed my comment with the statement to basically heed the signs the Bible lays out Christians to watch for not those Armstrongites have been holding out to happen to confirm the misguided and mistaken notions HWA staked on as proof of his prophetship.
Everything else you wrote about living one’s life without fear, taking advantage of every opportunity that comes your way and even protecting those younger than oneself to give them a chance to live their life to the full I’m in full agreement with.
Is a false prophet a person who claims we are entering into the time of privacy while hacking all your life data and using that to lead us into temptation of surveillance capitalism???
ReplyDeleteThen I assume the beast would not be a European but an American.
nck
ReplyDeletePAID MINISTRY --> UNPAID MINISTRY --> PAYING MINISTRY
Some “ministers” who were going along with the apostate Tkaches in the WCG found that the Great Apostasy of 1995 caused their paychecks to disappear, so they went with the UCG to continue to collect paychecks.
An unpaid ministry in the UCG might be more in line with what many of them are actually worth.
In fact, some of those newly credentialed FAKE “ministers” in the UCG should have to pay to pretend to be ministers. It would be like a sort of relatively small monetary compensation payment that they get charged each month for the exceedingly great harm that they do.
ReplyDeleteThe real worker deserves his pay (sometimes).
The newly credentialed FAKE “minister” deserves a kick in the butt.
9:37 Pay to play or pay to preach.
ReplyDeleteOK, so that's what you call it, 5:36. But, it's still a diet version of Armstrongism. After all, it's very fashionable these days to attempt to dodge the stigma of Armstrongism by claiming to follow the "truths" revealed by GG Rupert or Dugger and Dodd.
ReplyDeleteGo in peace!
BB
BB - I was committed and holding fast for over 50 years before I realized I was deluded- you are never too old to change.
ReplyDeleteByker Bob said...
ReplyDeleteOK, so that's what you call it, 5:36. But, it's still a diet version of Armstrongism. After all, it's very fashionable these days to attempt to dodge the stigma of Armstrongism by claiming to follow the "truths" revealed by GG Rupert or Dugger and Dodd.
Go in peace!
BB
November 25, 2019 at 7:26 PM
********************
So, every Christian who believes in a future fulfillment of Revelation's prophecies as I do are following "a diet version of Armstrongism" or "GG Rupert or Dugger and Dodd" to you? You give these men way too much credit than they deserve brother! Peace out!
WCG and United focused on the "Truth" (Sabbath, Holy Days etc) but failed to follow Christs teachings and examples He left us. At Passover He showed the "leadership" and members were to be servants, not tyrants like the Gentiles. Jesus reached out to those society rejected, the Centurion, the tax collector, prostitutes, leapers, women, foreigners. He didn't want His church to be a inward focused cult, with it's leaders idolized.
ReplyDeleteMark 9-38 "Whoever is not against us is for us" shows an openness to the world in general. Christ came to save mankind, not condemn them.
Since we as a church are so small, old and spread out, following Jesus's example would need to be done individually in your own neighborhood. Find someone in need and offer help and do it in secret.
No, 2:32, The use of "every" creates a logical fallacy.
ReplyDeleteI read widely, and about ten years ago, purchased Dr. David Jeremiah's "What in the World is Going On?" Same model as we learned for the apocalypse, basing it on a resurrection of the Roman Empire, only being honest enough to admit that the USA is nowhere mentioned in the Bible, and doesn't seem to be present during the endtime events.
This is more evidence of Herbert W. Armstrong's influence on mainstream Christianity. If you read some articles on British Israelism, they plainly state that as a theory, it was pretty much moribund until HWA revived it. Rupert's twist was his "yellow peril" He was also invested in British Israelism and dispensationalism, but taught that the end time events would be based on a battle between the Orient and the Occident.
I've never met anyone on these blogs and forums who actually got their theology from GG Rupert, The Adventists, or Dugger and Dodd. Plenty of people credit those sources, however, to avoid the obvious stigma associated with HWA, and the huge PR problem that HWA's character flaws have caused to the movement. It's a nice try at a save, albeit a tenuous and desperate one. I guess in a perverse sort of way, it's a slightly more honorable approach than continuing to proclaim that HWA was not only right, but also purer than the driven snow. Both approaches are disingenuous, which is actually the only way you can be with a bogus theology.
BB
Can you hear the chorus? "Ah, but GG Rupert taught the same things as HWA, and HE didn't commit incest or deliberately conceal a predator (son)! Therefore, it must be God's truth! Why, haven't you read Bacchiocchi?"
ReplyDeleteBB
Rupert, HWA?
ReplyDeleteI have seen church records of the Pilgrim Fathers before they were Pilgrims, blasting and condemning a stubborn dissenter fellowshipper holding to Saturday sabbath.
At the synod of Whitby 14th of Nisan was an issue under debate between the catholic and celtic church representatives before the celtic church was erased from history.
I don't know if in either case World Dominion of the USA was discussed in the councils. I do know the Pilgrims acquired a leaking ship to check this fashionable USA thing out. The Celts eventually moved to the Appalachians to the chagrin of a certain Tonto. And thus follows the history according to Nck.
Nck
Byker Bob said...
ReplyDeleteNo, 2:32, The use of "every" creates a logical fallacy.
I read widely, and about ten years ago, purchased Dr. David Jeremiah's "What in the World is Going On?" Same model as we learned for the apocalypse, basing it on a resurrection of the Roman Empire, only being honest enough to admit that the USA is nowhere mentioned in the Bible, and doesn't seem to be present during the endtime events.
This is more evidence of Herbert W. Armstrong's influence on mainstream Christianity. If you read some articles on British Israelism, they plainly state that as a theory, it was pretty much moribund until HWA revived it. Rupert's twist was his "yellow peril" He was also invested in British Israelism and dispensationalism, but taught that the end time events would be based on a battle between the Orient and the Occident.
I've never met anyone on these blogs and forums who actually got their theology from GG Rupert, The Adventists, or Dugger and Dodd. Plenty of people credit those sources, however, to avoid the obvious stigma associated with HWA, and the huge PR problem that HWA's character flaws have caused to the movement. It's a nice try at a save, albeit a tenuous and desperate one. I guess in a perverse sort of way, it's a slightly more honorable approach than continuing to proclaim that HWA was not only right, but also purer than the driven snow. Both approaches are disingenuous, which is actually the only way you can be with a bogus theology.
BB
November 26, 2019 at 9:17 PM
********************
Did HWA influence "mainstream Christianity" or did "mainstream Christianity" influence HWA or did both influence each other?
So what are your beliefs then Byker Bob regarding the prophecies of Revelation?
12:05
ReplyDeleteIt seems BB is checkmate in his opposition to me that the LASTING influence of HWA influenced the lives of hundreds of millions of people into eternity. Ideas can only be opposed by other ideas and cannot be measured by the demise of the devising corporation. (courtesy to chinese economist made up by nck)
nck
Prophecies throughout the Bible were always conditional. "If you do this, then I'll do that!" Or, If you don't do this, then I'll do that!" They were designed to assist in compliance, to hold the people who were the objects of the prophecies measurably accountable.
ReplyDeleteIf you read the history of Israel from the coronation of King Saul to the fall of Jerusalem and the Babylonian captivity, you are struck by several facts. The Kingdom of Israel, the Northern Kingdom, had predominantly evil kings from the reign of non-Davidic King Jereboam forward. The Southern Kingdom, frequently had good kings who worshipped God and destroyed the idols devoted to pagan gods. God showed both kingdoms much time and mercy, often rewarding even partial obedience, to encourage His people. There was no timeline associated with the impending captivities of either kingdom. No dates were set. God delayed punishment until it became obvious to Him that each of the kingdoms were incorrigible. And, He sent numerous prophets to warn them.
One reason why 1972-75 failed was because HWA did not understand that the punishments of Revelation are not a function of mathematics! You cannot deduce the time of the end by formula! Rather, God makes judgment calls, bringing in the punishments when it becomes apparent to Him that His people are incorrigible, and that they will not respond to time and mercy. If we read the lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah, we learn that so long as there is even a minority of good people, God spares all for their sake. These are the reasons why Jesus stated that Father God alone knew when the end would come. Is it any wonder why the entire Adventist movement, from the time of William Miller through HWA, and down to the splinters of our times has brought so much confusion and misunderstanding to the topic of the end times?
I don't know what conditions all the other bloggers live in, in their local communities. I only know that in my community, my state, people are predominantly good. They try to instill good values into their children, they act from the best intentions, and they go about the task of living their lives, raising their families, and putting food on the table. The evil doers have continued to be a fixed percentage, and are held in ill repute, and incarcerated as necessary. Leaders actively work to correct social evils, and to improve conditions for their citizens. Unless you use Armstrongian redefinition, and then parse every little bit of minutiae to make it appear that incorrigible evil prevails, you can clearly still see goodness in most peoples' hearts. No way are we to the point of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Book of Revelation outlines a possible series of events. It is a very poetic piece of literature, rife with metaphor, and allegory, based upon the ability of very primitive people to perceive and describe the events of a vastly more modern era. We cannot know the specifics of the timeline leading up to its activation. Frankly, we don't even know if we are yet on the event horizon. All we know is that those events have not yet happened during the history of mankind. There is a fallacy with the idea that they were all fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, because 1) Jesus has not returned, and that is the whole point of Revelation and 2) This is not the millennium or the Kingom. Once the events kick in, then the timeline for the rest of the book will become fixed or known.
There is much mystery or unccertainty about all of this. Anyone who would tell you differently either does not know what he's talking about, or has an exploitive agenda. Live your life, and do good for the sake of good, and God. Behavior based on duress and coercion is valueless anyway. It's all about the heart.
Happy Thanksgiving , everybody!
BB
Oh, and to nck: When you corrupt something, or side track it with error, that is not a positive. Your premise since the fateful day on which you first began posting here has been that HWA had a lasting and positive effect on the world around us. You can't claim the negatives that I continually cite as any sort of victory in our chess game. That would indeed be both twisted and disingenuous.
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BB
ReplyDelete40% of births in the United States occur outside of marriage. This is up from 28% in 1990. So I doubt that future historians will view today's society as predominantly good.
2:39
ReplyDeleteMy premise since I began posting here was in opposition to the premise that all the money gone through the WCG mill had come to naught. I hardly ever mentioned hwa but said "wcg" as in meaning "the donor of funds to lasting projects". It was mainly you who inserted hwa in my musings. Which is not completely wrong and may even be right, but deflects from my point on the "cheerful givers" and their lasting impact. Even if no sign at the Jerusalem gates reveals wcg sponsoring over the years. I just pointed out 40 years of WCG involvement in major excavations there. If you like to insert hwa there, I cannot deny it. My comments just supported the thousands of people involved over the years either on the ground or by financial contribution. And I could cite hundreds of lasting causes to this day that do not carry "our name". Blast Globe theater or Beijing's auditorium all you will. They serve millions of people into cultural exchange to this day and "we" did our bit. I never mentioned hwa, but it might not have been disingenuous of you to point his involvement out. My only claim as was Armstrong, that it could not have been possible without "the people".
I did not know about sixties excesses you suffered and shared since I was never part of "radio" as most bloggers here. I know that for a fact since the complete absence on this blog of the word "the telecast". This absence gives me an impression of this blogs particular niche, explaining certain discrepancies in experience or "disingenuities" as you call them.
Nck
Byker Bob
ReplyDeleteNovember 28, 2019 at 10:09 AM
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I understand better now and greatly appreciate your sound response Byker Bob! I don't disagree with what you wrote at all and I've learned something new so thank you again!
Happy Thanksgiving weekend to you, yours and all! ;-)
I agree with much of what Ncks 8.29 PM post. The previous generation was warned of an approaching WW3. HWAs 1975 was a fly in the ointment, but the basic message went out. Without the warning, the outcry from billions will be deafening.
ReplyDelete5:54 Sure today's society is good. Haven't you heard Webster's has redefined the meaning of good? That's all it takes.
ReplyDeleteTo 5:54: You may have actually cited a positive, thinking it was a negative. The number of abortions has been drastically reduced since 1990. In fact, abortion is now at its lowest statistic rate since Roe vs Wade legalized abortion in the USA. Anti-abortion activists, and the Christian community have worked tirelessly to promote adoption, and to counsel women experiencing unexpected and unwanted pregnancies to keep and raise their babies. Obviously, there is more work to be done towards reaching total goodness, but decreasing the magnitude of this horrible holocaust is at least a step in the right direction.
ReplyDeleteBB
BB, November 28, 2019 at 10:09 AM, began a very interesting comment with writing:
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"...Prophecies throughout the Bible were always conditional. "If you do this, then I'll do that!" Or, If you don't do this, then I'll do that!" They were designed to assist in compliance, to hold the people who were the objects of the prophecies measurably accountable..."
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However, there are many prophecies throughout the Bible that are not ALWAYS conditional. For example, we have the following samples from the Bible:
Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I [am] the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
Jer 30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Jer 31:1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Etc., but those prophecies were about a future that did not require people doing anything like: "If you do this, then I'll do that!"
God knows something first must/will be done, but only He can do it. Will He keep these promises/prophecies?
Time will tell...
John