And they wonder why they have no friends...
In all honesty, i often feel discouraged when i think about God's people and how my family is treated. I sometimes feel like everyone hates my family;like we don't belong.
We've become the dog no one wants around, it seems.
It's hard not to tear up when thinking about how only a few we've come into contact with has show any passion for God's Truth! We've met thousands of people who have turned in hate and bitterness against God and who are hostile towards that truth! They call themselves members of God's true Church! Yet they've acted like enemies!
I don't know sometimes.
Why have we stood up to tell the truth when the opposition has been so great?
Why have we endured such persecution?
Why have we forsaking everything, just to warn our brethren, and to remind them of what Christ has given the Church?
We havent started a new Church. We havent broken away in rebellion and started a new organization. We haven't tried to pull members away from other churches! We aren't in it for money! Or followers! Just look at our fruits!
All we have been doing is warning God's scattered people of how Satan seeks to devour them, and how the need to "HOLD FAST" is more urgent than ever!
It is hard brethren, to stand when everyone lays down; to swim when everyone is choosing to FLOAT!
Ive never had a real friend in my life it seems. The exception being, i have found some friendship with older members of God's Church in the past, and watched as many were martyred because they loved God's Truth more than the lies!
I just wish that someone will respond to us, and say YES I LOVE GOD'S TRUTH!
But our job isn't to convince or to convert. Our job is to make known the TRUTH OF GOD.
It is up to the people to choose to believe it or not.
People get angry when we are confident in God's Word and Truth! They want is to compromise it, and conform to them.
I'd rather lay my life down for them now, and be raised, and they see what God is offering and that God is telling them the truth!
We arent here to lie to people! That would be much easier, and we would be much more popular! The truth cuts, and nobody likes to be wrong. We all have been and can be wrong! We can only change ourselves. When Christ shows us, we must change ourselves! We cannot change you! You can change you!
But people are busy choosing for themselves what is right and wrong. When God's Word says something different than what they want, they turn away! Those with God's Spirit embrace God's Word and seek to OBEY IT.
We are going through a purification.
A lot of dross is coming to the top. A lot of impurities.
A lot of dross is coming to the top. A lot of impurities.
Im earnestly waiting for God's Church to "make herself ready". How much MORE is God and Jesus Christ for such a thing.
When will the truth matter? It matters to some. And to them i say...may God bless. Because they are going through real hell on earth now. Satan and his demons hate them! And they are the most blessed on this planet for having to endure such a persecution, because God is using that persecution to PURIFY THEM and to MAKE THEM READY FOR MARRIAGE WITH JESUS CHRIST!
It might get lonely. It might get hard and tough.
But God is watching and caring for you! DO NOT FORGET THAT! HE'LL SEE YOU THROUGH TO THE END!
But God is watching and caring for you! DO NOT FORGET THAT! HE'LL SEE YOU THROUGH TO THE END!
I must admit, love of Gods way wasn't what I experienced while I attended services. But implying that the old Herb articles that the Kitchens put on their web site, is the supposed truth, is another story. Herb mangled the truth when it suited him. For instance, his 'administering Gods government,' doctrine, which he learnt in his 11 year apprenticeship in COG 7th day, is nothing more than ministers stealing members lives. This is because ownership is defined as control.
ReplyDeleteHerbs theology is a mixture of some truth and much error. And what meaning does the truth part have, if members are robbed of their lives?
While I don't know the Kitchen Family drama or trama as relates to WCG and being at opposite ends of the spectrum of belief, I appreciate anyone who for any reason on any topic speaks from the heart. It resonates with me. It is more common for people to rant and poke others out of their own frustrations, be right, control or be in charge than to simply share the emotions and inner experience, no matter the topic, as Samuel is doing. I don't know him but in this one moment of his sharing his thoughts and feelings, I like him.
ReplyDeleteIf they didn't start yet another "True Church" condemning all others or search the scriptures for themselves being in them, good for them. Sincerity and humility of heart goes a long way. These are not traits that jump out of you with those like Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry or Bob Thiel. Perhaps I just feel closer and more akin to those who are more real in their sharing and this expression of frustration of heart resonates with me for lots of reasons I suppose.
The friendship problem in inherent in the WCG church experience. My own former friendships were based on mutual belief and goals. In hindsight they had no basis in actual friendship as in birds of a feather flock together no matter. Church upheavals cost people most of their "friends" because that friendship is based on limiting factors. Add to this the Church/Bible way of separating friends with marking, dis-membering and edicts of forbidden contact and there ya go.
Unconditional friends are rare but are friends indeed over time. Myself, I can count my close friends on one hand. Those who claim 1000 FB friends are kidding themselves of course. I think I"m up to 80 lol, but only a few, very few are friends in the classic sense. Others I even forget how they got there and who they are! Some are church left overs who tolerate the changes in how we know each other and some just seem to have wanted to collect another stamp for their collection of 2600 friends!
If I had to choose one friend who is a friend indeed who came out of the WCG experience and with whom I kid and he with me about our differences, who cares, it would be Wes White. If he lived any closer to me, he'd be my go to friend and has proven it over the past several years in our behind the scenes talks. We have not ever met yet in our latter years. Wes says he first met me when we both were in our 20's in WCG when I was just getting into ministry. I don't recall that. Later we met again briefly when Art Mokarrow flew me to debate him in Tyler and I sat through his show that evening. I recall how much I though I didn't like him then. LOL. Then somewhere along the line we connected again here on Banned, had some good laughs and simply shared our experiences, the good, the bad and a few of the ugly. Now we'd probably get arrested if we lived too close to each other as I told him a couple days ago. A friend indeed church views notwithstanding. I like that and for whatever reasons, Wes and I resonate well differences making no difference.
Speaking from the head produces one kind of result and usually one of point and counter point endlessly on topics of beliefs. Speaking from the heart and having the courage to share the feelings, emotions, joys and disappointments of one's beliefs, no matter the topic, takes a bit more of a human being not trying to uphold an image. Speaking from both head and heart well seems to me a most important skill or trait and I at least credit Samuel with this in this instance.
"One who is kind is sympathetic and gentle with others. He is considerate of others' feelings and courteous in his behavior. He has a helpful nature. Kindness pardons others' weaknesses and faults. Kindness is extended to all -- to the aged and the young, to animals, to those low of station as well as the high." -Ezra Taft Benson
"One who knows how to show and to accept kindness will be a friend better than any possession." -Sophocles
i have found some friendship with older members of God's Church in the past, and watched as many were martyred because they loved God's Truth more than the lies!
ReplyDeleteMartyred? Leaving a church because you disagree with its teachings isn't martyrdom.
I feel sorry for the Kitchens. They are enslaved by the past I feel as though in the future there will hundreds of kitchens as the cogs ride in the sunset. I recently stop going to the cog services for a while now and I knew even before I stopped going that I did not have a "real" friend in the church. So I wish the Kitchens one day they will have freedom to expand their circle of friends no matter how different people may seem in religion or anything for that matter.
ReplyDeleteWhat a compassionate comment! I think it’s so important to be kind even when we disagree with someone’s core beliefs - way to PRACTICE Christianity instead of simply talking about it!
DeletePS. You have more friends than you know.
"We've met thousands of people who have turned in hate and bitterness against God"
ReplyDeleteNot at all. We just saw thru the bullshit!
"ARMSTRONG WAS A MAN UTTERLY WITHOUT HONOR, WITHOUT PRINCIPLES, WITHOUT A SHRED OF GENUINE DECENCY OR PATRIOTISM. HE WAS THE ULTIMATE EXTERMINATOR OF RELIGIOUS LIFE FOR THOUSANDS, AND THE GRAND COMPELLING CREATOR OF A VAST ARMY OF ATHEISTS."
"The exception being, i have found some friendship with older members of God's Church in the past, and watched as many were martyred because they loved God's Truth more than the lies! "
ReplyDeletemartyred? Really?
I have to agree with Dennis on this. I saw this late last night, and immediately picked up on Sam's sincerity and angst. It kind of leaves you speechless, even though someone from the opposite side of the spectrum has written it. Obviously an objective thinker is not going to change his or her mind based on this testimony, but at the very least it somewhat humanizes a number of the people who have stuck with the original teachings of HWA. There have been a handful of others over the years, such as Ian Boyne, and Wes White, who have stuck with some or all of the core doctrines, but have also been very forthright in acknowledging the flaws and errors of HWA. And, of course, there are others (many) who have been outright pricks in expressing their continued adherence to the doctrines. The pricks make themselves into horrible stereotypes, or reenforce existing stereotypes.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, there is wide variety in the human species, and every so often we need a reminder of that. If Gary were the type of person many imagine him to be, he would never have published this example of Sam pouring out his heart in this manner. Food for thought all around.
BB
Maybe if the First Family Kitchen had not deliberately stolen writings of HWA and the WCG and appropriated the name WCG as their church, people might be more sympathetic. Deliberate theft of owned copyrighted books and articles by WCG is theft.
ReplyDelete8 AM said... “Maybe if the First Family Kitchen had not deliberately stolen writings of HWA and the WCG and appropriated the name WCG as their church, people might be more sympathetic. Deliberate theft of owned copyrighted books and articles by WCG is theft.”
DeleteSo what do you call what HWA did with J. H. Allen book or what the Tkach oligarchy did with the WCG?
The dehumanizing and stereotyping of armstrongites has been rampant here.
ReplyDeleteI'm not surprized with Gary's admission since he has repeatedly stated that ordinary folk are not his main concern.
There are tens of thousands nice people out there who happen to believe some pretty weird stuff like Abraham founding Austria or make up being a sin.
Nck
There is a definite difference between being a Sabbatarian, Holy Day , non pork eater etc. individual believer, and being a naive , HWA culty , that has him idolized and venerated.
ReplyDeleteMessianic Christianity, or the COG 7th Day practice these things, but in no way are connected to Armstrong cultism, or the like. HWA was NOT the "Elijah", an "Apostle", one of the two witnesses, Zerubabel, or any of may other titles attributed to him. Sabbatarians like myself have a distinct revolt against being called "Armstrongites" , because our practices have similarities.
However, the sociology of Armstrong, the hierarchy of Armstrongism, the lifestyle of the Armstrongs, the central command, power and control of Armstrongism, and the false claims made by Armstrongism in regards to "prophetic vision" and Biblical title , have no place within healthy , actualized Sabbath keeping Christians.
So IMHO, the Kitchens advocate the "Armstrong System" not just Biblical evidence argument. Armstrong is extra Biblical , and we are warned against such with the words to "not add or subract". Sola Scriptura is enough, without having to accept a Biblical interloper, whether it be Armstrongs, Pack , Flurry, Thiel, or Ellen White.
For this reason, I reject the Kitchens, and their efforts. Salvation is through Jesus alone, NOT Jesus plus HWA. (or anyone else).
Tonto 2/7 @8:25 AM said...
DeleteThere is a definite difference between being a Sabbatarian, Holy Day , non pork eater etc. individual believer, and being a naive , HWA culty , that has him idolized and venerated.
Messianic Christianity, or the COG 7th Day practice these things, but in no way are connected to Armstrong cultism, or the like. HWA was NOT the "Elijah", an "Apostle", one of the two witnesses, Zerubabel, or any of may other titles attributed to him. Sabbatarians like myself have a distinct revolt against being called "Armstrongites" , because our practices have similarities.
However, the sociology of Armstrong, the hierarchy of Armstrongism, the lifestyle of the Armstrongs, the central command, power and control of Armstrongism, and the false claims made by Armstrongism in regards to "prophetic vision" and Biblical title , have no place within healthy , actualized Sabbath keeping Christians.
So IMHO, the Kitchens advocate the "Armstrong System" not just Biblical evidence argument. Armstrong is extra Biblical , and we are warned against such with the words to "not add or subract". Sola Scriptura is enough, without having to accept a Biblical interloper, whether it be Armstrongs, Pack , Flurry, Thiel, or Ellen White.
For this reason, I reject the Kitchens, and their efforts. Salvation is through Jesus alone, NOT Jesus plus HWA. (or anyone else).
******
AMEN TO THAT BROTHER!
But you love eating pork Tonto. Lean pork of course. How you jest calling yourself a Sabbatarian when you've written so many articles refuting the Sabbath movement for years.
ReplyDeleteOr are your beliefs emotionally determined? You feel Sabbatarian today but tommorrow you could feel differently.
A bit like your many names.
Tonto noted: "For this reason, I reject the Kitchens, and their efforts. Salvation is through Jesus alone, NOT Jesus plus HWA. (or anyone else). "
ReplyDeleteHow about Jesus plus The Apostle Paul?
1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...
.8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted (FROM ME), LET THEM BE UNDER GOD'S CURSE.
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, THAT THE GOSPEL I PREACH IS NOT OF HUMAN ORIGIN 12 I DID NOT RECEIVE IT FROM ANY MAN NOR WAS I TAUGHT IT; rather, I RECEIVED IT BY REVELATION BY JESUS CHRIST. (This is Paul's "Trust Me. Jesus appeared to ME" moment AND ADMITTING HIS JESUS AND HIS MESSAGE HAD HALLUCINATORY BEGINNINGS)
15 But when God, WHO SET ME APART FROM MY MOTHER'S WOMB (LIKE JESUS AND JEREMIAH EVIDENTLY. NO DAMASCUS ROAD STORY HERE) and called me by his grace, WAS PLEASED TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME, so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was NOT TO CONSULT WITH ANY HUMAN BEING. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
2: 6 As for those who were held in high esteem— (THIS WOULD BE PETER, JAMES AND JOHN 2;9) whatever they were (UMMM, THE JERUSALEM APOSTLES WHO KNEW JESUS PERSONALLY?), makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—THEY ADDED NOTHING TO MY MESSAGE.
The church, true or otherwise, ( There never was one true coherent and unified church ever from the start as we can see), always followed Jesus plus their human champions of the message that appealed to them.
Eventually even the Apostle Paul had to cave to "Jesus plus the teachings of others as it was a very common problem he could not control, even with his threats of God's curses on them in Galatians. Nothing new to see here and you don't follow Jesus In a Vacuum or plus nobody anymore than they didn't.
1 Corinthians 3:4-6
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
(PAUL WAS NOT INTO , 'EVEN AS THE LORD GAVE TO EVERY MAN" IN GALATIANS WRITTEN EARLIER. HE LEARNED HE COULD NOT HAVE HIS EXCLUSIVE WAY WITH HIS VIEWS AND HIS COSMIC HALLUCINATORY JESUS SO HAD TO GIVE IT UP TO OTHERS AS WELL. IN SHORT, HE LEARNED THAT HE HAD TO SHARE THE PIE)
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
BB
ReplyDeleteIan Boyne an Armstrongite or similar? Ian was a social justice warrior. He belongs in another moral universe to HWA or the bible. The esteem and honor bestowed on him by his countries leaders, is not what NT and OT Christians experienced. Rather, they experienced the opposite.
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 9:1 1Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our LORD? Are you not the result of my work in the LORD?
When Paul asks, "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord" he does not mean "Don't I also know Jesus in the flesh" or "Have I not met him in real life?" He means "Have I not experienced Jesus our Lord" For Paul it was in his head and in hallucinations of Jesus voice.
The Gospels, written after Paul's death, never heard of Paul among the Pharisees who were portrayed as following Jesus all over Jerusalem to trap him though Paul had to be there and claiming he was the smartest pencil in the box of Jerusalem Pharisees and hated the followers of Jesus.
On four occasions (Romans 9:1; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Galatians 1:20; 1 Timothy 2:7), the Apostle Paul wrote, “I lie not.” Why pen such a statement four times? Could it be he was often accused of it by those who knew him best and found him fudging on the facts? Could be...
Sorry about re-smack on Paul. It took me a long time to read Galatians 1 and 2 and get that Paul was no team player. He had his version of the Gospel he expected others to adhere to and learned NOTHING from the Jerusalem apostles. Can you imagine that? NOTHING?
To follow Paul as he followed Christ was definitely Jesus + Paul and + or - Peter, James and John depending
I hope Dennis and I are not getting too personal on this site, but I really appreciated his kind words. And his friendship.
ReplyDeleteYes, he and I are worlds apart theologically. But that doesn't stop us from sharing a lot of values: Respect for others, concern for the hurt, interest in truth, appreciation for good music, and love of science. We also have some common history in the Chicago area when he was a young minister and I was a newly baptized church member.
Dennis is absolutely right that, if he and I lived closer to each other, Nancy and Angie would need to keep a stash of cash around to bail us out of jail from time-to-time.
Dennis is an irreverent hoot. But then, so am I.
--Wes White
DD said: To follow Paul as he followed Christ was definitely Jesus + Paul and + or - Peter, James and John depending.
ReplyDeleteMy Comment: This is true and there is only one way to use the bible to support a person's faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. This way includes a belief in God and His involvement of inspiration of the written word we have today. This belief includes receiving the Holy Spirit as a Divine Guide that will lead us to seek a life that is focused on a Kingdom defined as the Kingdom of God. It also requires a connection with God through prayer and sincere dedication to a spiritual life that reflects the life Jesus lived while in human flesh.
Anon at 9:18 wrote:
ReplyDeleteBut you love eating pork Tonto. Lean pork of course. How you jest calling yourself a Sabbatarian when you've written so many articles refuting the Sabbath movement for years.
Or are your beliefs emotionally determined? You feel Sabbatarian today but tommorrow you could feel differently.
MY RESPONSE:
I have not deliberately eaten pork since my conversion. I have NEVER written anything to refute Sabbath observance in my life. However, I am anti-cult and anti hierarchical nonsense, which has plagued the WCG and its daughters. Financial abuse , spiritual abuse and worse have all happened regularly within the Armstrongish Movements.
I observe the Sabbath Day and am in alignment with the Statement of Beliefs of the Church of God Seventh Day. You however, appear to be someone who enjoys eating "lean turd pie". I post with an identifier and thus have a provenance and record, and you post under "anonymous". So your harangue against me, makes little sense.
Like many on here, except for perhaps Dennis or a couple of others, I wish to protect the innocent relatives and friends that remain in COG groups from any unnecessary harassment from readers here. Frankly, for my own personal safety, employment record and security as well, I keep my identity vague, and Im sure many here would agree to that wisdom.
NCK noted: "Like many on here, except for perhaps Dennis or a couple of others, I wish to protect the innocent relatives and friends that remain in COG groups from any unnecessary harassment from readers here."
ReplyDeleteUnderstand that. I had 35 extended family members in WCG at the peak. Three full time pastors, my father and father in law were local elders in NY and Texas respectively. The moms were deaconesses and then came all the kids growing up in it. None of them went into a splinter but rather on their own separate ways so I did not have that issue to deal with. My parents went back to their Presbyterian Roots up the street in their latter years and I was careful with my mom and dad about my own stuff while they were living. They passed at just under a hundred shortly before I went to Portland.
My oldest sister stay around the WCG crowd in one form or another after her pastor husband died rather young for the friendships she had made. She attended feasts to see old friends. She was the sister killed last year coming home from her work at the hospital. My surviving sister and I are close and she is very religious but we don't talk about stuff related to that. My brother who has been blind, deaf and can't speak, all his life, won't look at me, listen to me or talk to me ever :)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGod does not believe in Jesus.
ReplyDeleteGod does not believe in Jesus.
ReplyDeleteWhy should She?
I wonder if the author of this post knows it's getting airtime on Banned. It is really sad and borderlines on whining. The author seems to have a serious case of persecution complex. In education, we call this a problem of the "Law of Primacy", which states that what is learned first is remembered longest, and has the most powerful affect on the student. Just because this author learned WRONGLY from the beginning really doesn't justify this public spectacle of crocodile tears. I call people like this the "spiritual Amish", who just froze their development abritrarily in the 1800's. (No insult to the Amish).
ReplyDeleteWho Are the "Angles"?
ReplyDeleteThe "Angles," on the other hand, come from the "Aegels." They are basically the tribe of Ephraim. The Hebrew word "Aegel" means "YOUNG BULL" or "bull calf." Of both sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, Moses prophesied, "His glory is like the firstling of his BULLOCK, and his horns are like the horns of a wild ox; with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth" Deuteronomy 33:17, Schofield Reference Bible). Aegel is the diminutive form of Angle and the words are interchangeable in the Nordic dialects. As both Ephraim and Manasseh are characterized as "bulls," or "bullocks," it is interesting that Ephraim -- the "Angles" -- is characterized as the "YOUNG bull," since he is the younger son of the two!
not approved censor me go for it.
link
Why should She.
ReplyDeleteTheft? We are preserving the original usage of copyright and trademark. As long as that is intact, a new copyright or trademark cannot take it over, and erase it, bury it, destroy it.
ReplyDeleteHistory is often rewritten by people who disagree with the other.
These organizations are attempting to steal the publications of HWA and the WCG, in order to eradicate it. We are simply striving to preserve the original usage and publications.
We are members of the Worldwide Church of God and are not starting a new church or a new organization. We aren't collecting money or donations, nor are we building a following.
We are pointing out discrepancies and departures by people, new groups, and organizations, who are collecting money and donations, and are seeking to rewrite history.
People remember the evils of these organizations(post-HWA), and those evils are being transferred onto HWA and the WCG, for the purpose of gaslighting.
If everyone gave up their membership, and gave up preserving the original usage of the publications, then these new groups can successfully take it over and the true records would be destroyed and all that people will know is the evils of these false groups.
It reminds me of the Nazi's and the book burnings, but more sophisticated.
If we had a different church, a different organization, or D.B.A as many have, and took the publications of HWA and WCG to collect donations and support, then we would be guilty of theft. But we arent.
It is a bit like the history of Scotland, and the clearances. We seek to preserve our heritage, not steal it from another. Too many are doing that today!
DD
ReplyDeleteYou attributed a quote of Tonto to me. No harm done, since I could have said that and along those lines at 8:19.
I second Gary's original mission statement, hell I even second Samuel Kitchens original mission statement on preservation. I do not support book burnings, neither do I support cover ups. (Although some little lies smoothen social relations, as in..... "you look fine in that dress not fat").
Someone commented that they liked Thiels articles until he started assuming biblical titles and roles. I could second that. I do second BB's attempt to save the earth.
Most of all I do second little cousins trapped in a cult for the (sincere) stupidity of their parents.
Trapped on a cruiseschip full of Corona.
Nck
Bob amd Dennis
ReplyDeleteWhy are you both so easily manipulated by emotions? The truth is anyone who peddles lies and decibt will reap the rewards.
You should have compassion on them after they have repented of the evil they have done. Not because their evil works have failed to produce happiness for them. That's insane.
Uh, decency as a human being maybe? I've always been the kind of guy who stands up to the lynch mob. Do I agree with what they are doing? Hell no. However, under the Constitution and Bill of Rights the Kitchen family has the same freedoms as the rest of us. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech. Due process, etc. As a society, we are judged by how we treat all others, not just those with whom we agree or happen to like, I chose to be an empath, not a sociopath.
ReplyDeleteBB
To spiritually succeed, one must eventually go 'solo,' rather than eternally depend on some spiritual guru, be it HWA, Dave Pack or Banneds Dennis Diehl. That's what 'prove all things' means. It's understandable that people put their trust in some religious leader in their spiritual youth, but to not outgrow this is spiritual death. A Christian is one who directly follows Christ, with no middleman minister in between.
ReplyDelete9.10 PM
ReplyDeleteMy experience is that people do not repent of the evil they do. They temporarily back away because of circumstances, but genuinely repent, no.
They have no compassion, pity, empathy for their victims, so why have compassion for them? Where's the justice in that?
Imagine a world in which everyone did as you suggest in your final sentences, 9:04. Would you rather live in a world like that, or in a world in which people generally took the high road in spite of others' imperfections, blatant as those imperfections might sometimes be?
ReplyDeleteBreak bad cycles whenever and wherever you can. You'll be surprised at what a difference you can make in so doing!
BB
BB
ReplyDeleteZero tolerance in New York brought down the horrific murder rate by nine tenths in the past 30 years. To the criminally minded, all they respect is what they can or cannot get away with. Which is why knife crimes dropped in London between 2009-2014 when police stop and search was increased. When this was scaled back in 2014, knife offences surged from 26,000 to 34.700 in Wales and England.
Paul made mention of this same phenomenon when he stated that grievous wolves would step forward after his departure. This is also discernable in churches. When a new evil minister arrives, the church crazies play up, and when he leaves and is replaced by a better minister, the crazies lay low again.
OK, I see that Mr. "Any Pretext for an Argument" is back. (11:19)
ReplyDeleteSeriously? You are actually comparing murder in New York City to the Kitchens publishing HWA's archives on the internet? I take it they didn't have the children's book "Epaminondas" in your kindergarten library, or you would have learned the meaning of the word "appropriate".
I am not contesting zero tolerance for murder. That has been a matter of common law in all advanced civilizations, going back thousands of years. Like it or not, religious freedom is protected by the founding documents of our great nation.
I really feel sorry for you, but I refuse to be baited into yet another wasteful and ridiculous argument. 👎
BB
Bob: " Uh, decency as a human being maybe? "
ReplyDeleteThat is delusional, totally and completely. Why no compassion on UCG and COGWA leaders then? Because they think things are working out for them?
Would you have compassion on Vic Kubik or Jim Franks if they wrote a letter full of crocodile tears?
Yes, crocodile tears. These people sell evil, feel sad when they fail at robbing people with their lies, and Bob and Dennis feel sorry for them?
Has hell frozen over? What is going on?
I knew there would be people commenting whose brains were not complex enough to understand. Most people can't process two or three emotions simultaneously. It's a little too busy for them.
ReplyDeleteThe Kitchens are not evil people. They are doing as their consciences dictate, which is basically all any of us can do if we are to maintain our integrity. Sam feels angst that others (to his line of thinking) just don't get it, and that they hate his family. Do I agree with their philosophy, with the system they support? Not at all. I just find myself at counter purpose with them. If I've learned anything from this life it is that sincere people, following their beliefs, often find themselves working at counter purpose to one another. These guys aren't terrorists, haven't killed anybody, stolen their wives, or even displayed violent tendencies, nor will they. Their behavior is consistent with their beliefs. How am I supposed to feel towards them? Zero tolerance? Death? When it's time for God to correct us all, every one of us will find that we have been wrong in many ways.
And, by the way, I intend to continue critiquing them. I just don't hate them, They are fellow humans who get up in the morning and go to work to put food on the table for their families, and experience both joy and pain like every other human. But, silly me. I actually prayed for Shirley Pack when she fell ill. And, there have been others.
BB
"I knew there would be people commenting whose brains were not complex enough to understand."
ReplyDeleteTypical Alinsky response. Not surprising!
Nice way of tooting your own horn BB. Too bad you've just recently come to these conclusions. Starting your comment by belittling someone's intelligence doesn't help your cause though!
ReplyDeleteSo far as your comment regarding belittling someone's intelligence goes, I will simply defer to the wisdom of another poster, a Mr. Kevin McMillen, who would normally respond with "Hey, I call them like I see them!"
ReplyDeleteBB
ReplyDeleteSamuel Kitchen at 7:05 PM said...“People remember the evils of these organizations(post-HWA), and those evils are being transferred onto HWA and the WCG, for the purpose of gaslighting. If everyone gave up their membership, and gave up preserving the original usage of the publications, then these new groups can successfully take it over and the true records would be destroyed and all that people will know is the evils of these false groups.”
Good point.
Satan's false prophet Gerald R. Flurry always does all of his own evil in the name of Herbert W. Armstrong. Gerald Flurry actually edited and changed HWA's writings. While supposedly praising HWA, Gerald Flurry makes HWA appear to have been a monster.
Gerald Flurry does the same thing to God too. Gerald Flurry makes it out to be God, rather than himself, telling people to cut off all contact with their parents. In fact, God commanded people to honor their parents. But Gerald Flurry is full of major perversions that he pretends came from HWA and God rather than from Satan the Devil.
Calling them as you see them is fine, but then ridiculing others for calling the Kitchen's as they see them is hypocritical! But as I said, a typical Alinsky ploy!
ReplyDeleteAl Olinsky was my favorite character on Chicago PD, but they just had to kill him off in season 5.
ReplyDeleteIt's well known that Armstrongism attracted and left in its wake any number of mentally deficient and mentally debillitated individuals, some of whom are attracted to this site. If someone does not point out their recovery needs, how are they to receive healing??? I don't consider that ridiculing, it's helping them in much the same way as pointing out to a friend that they left their fly down when returning from the restroom. By the way, you are one of the one's whose figurative fly is down!
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Those poor Kitchen boys. I knew them both very well when I was Sam's Camp counselor during PYC during my short stint at HWAC. A few years prior I was Tims dorm mate as well. Good kids, very responsible, respectful and polite. Hard workers too.
ReplyDeleteSuch senseless damage done to such good-hearted souls. What a Shame.