The Painful Truth has a new article up today on the falsified links that the church has tried to use to tie the church to the Seventh-Day Baptists of Newport, Rhode Island.
It includes the letter from William Voyce of the Church of God, 7th Day refuted the many myths and outright lies that Herbert Armstrong and others promulgated.
William T. Voyce’s June 3, 1985 letter to the Worldwide Church of God is a veritable research paper with a “point-by-point refutation of their interpretation of American Sabbath history.” Mr. Voyce is a member of the Church of God, 7th Day and wrote the 7-page letter to the WCG after reading their article “The Church They Couldn’t Destroy.” Mr. Voyce has not received a WCG reply to his letter, the subject of which he feels is so important that “if the truth about this matter were more widely known, a good share of the Worldwide Church’s membership would never have joined in the first place.”
The article also includes research by Bruce Renhen on the same subject:
I was not alone in my discoveries concerning the Worldwide Church of God’s falsified link to the Seventh Day Baptist church of Newport, Rhode Island. As early as 1968, William T. Voyce of Des Moines, Iowa had corresponded with both the Seventh Day Baptist Historical Society (located then in Plainfield, New Jersey) and the Worldwide Church of God editorial staff in Pasadena.
Miss Evalois St. John of the Historical Society provided several photocopies to Voyce of original church documents dating back to the seventeenth through nineteenth centuries proving that A. N. Dugger (and later Herbert Armstrong) had counterfeited and altered the reading of their original documents. Miss St. John informed Mr. Voyce in her June 1968 letter to him:
A great disservice was done to both Seventh Day Baptists and Seventh Day Adventists by an Elder A. N. Dugger who now resides in Jerusalem. As you must know he was formerly a member of the denomination known as The Church of God (Adventist), with headquarters in Stanberry, Mo. In fact the U. S. Census of Religious Bodies 1926 carries the history/doctrine of this order which a footnote states was revised and approved by Elder A. N. Dugger, of the Church of God Publishing House. In 1934 (or 1933) Mr. Dugger separated from this group – Church of God (Adventist) – and established a new order – The Church of God (Seventh Day) – with headquarters at Salem W. Va. In the U.S. Census of Religious Bodies of 1936, one finds a history of this new order prepared – as the government states by Mr. Dugger. For the history of this group he deliberately “lifted” the history of the Seventh Day Baptists, added some Seventh Day Adventist history, and called it the History of the Church of God (Seventh Day). Because this pamphlet is put out by the U.S. Government – through its census Bureau – researchers and students of Church history have accepted his facts as true. One finds more of this “lifted” history in the book History of the True Church by A.N. Dugger and C.O. Dodd, published in 1936….
Check out the full article here:
Worldwide Church of God’s falsified link to the Seventh Day Baptist church of Newport, Rhode Island
The church lied to us about our history. It lied to us about British Israelism. I lied to us about doctrines.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think so many have walked away over the years?
Dave Pack lies to us today about "all things common". Gerald Flurry lies about possessing the new coronation throne. Bob Thiel lies to us about being doubly blessed and set apart because he had a dream. UCG and LCG lie to us that we will become God.
The COG is based upon lies.
Anon 4:47 wrote: I lied to us about doctrines.
DeleteReally do tell us more.
The Dugger and Dood History of the Church, makes many assumptions that were not accurate. It is not fair to say that the Waldensians were Sabbath Keepers for instance.
ReplyDeleteIt does appear that there hav existed pockets of Sabbath Keepers over the last 2000 years. However, they are not a continuous link, or an "unbroken line" of laying on of hands and providential passing of the torch in any kind of organized fashion.
But, even still, did those have the name “church of God”? If not they were counterfeit. Cogwa in their statement of beliefs and other splinters believe as did wcg that wIthout the name “church of God” you are not part of the Truth. That is why they tried to foist the name “church of God” on Puritan sects, 7th day Baptists, etc in order to fabricate an apostolic succession from the first century. Not that I’m telling you something you don’t already know.
DeleteHerb was a pathological liar. His "in the name of the living God, we only have 3 - 5 short years left" told non stop over 40 years, is an obvious one. But most of his lies are interwoven with Kenneth Copeland type Christianity, making it difficult to untangle them from biblical truth. Herbs moral theology is only partially derived from the bible. Commie totalitarianism and social justice theology is very pronounced in his teachings. Even today, many ACOG ministers are social justice warriors with a bible skin.
ReplyDeleteThe endless sermons these groups give on "obedience" (deceitfully dressed up as obedience to God), is them demanding that their members blindly conform to their self serving mix of truth and error.
The COGs that came from the WCG still teach the Dugger and Dodd thesis that the church must contain the formal name "Church of God" in some form in order to be considered legitimate in God's eyes, but their own quotes and writings even if taken at face value do not bear this out. In several instances the "Church of Christ" is mentioned. Does this count? Dugger and Dodd talk of the Waldensians, the Lollards, the Paulicans, etc. but they do not prove that any of these people officially incorporated into groups calling themselves "Church of God" or even that all these people kept the seventh day Sabbath. They did all protest certain Catholic doctrines and in that way would be considered part of the early protestant movement.
ReplyDeleteWhile I have no doubt that there have been pockets of Sabbath keeping peoples here and there down through history, I have not seen any proof within these writings that any of these people called themselves the "Church of God" in any formal or incorporated way, as our groups do today. Even if you look at some of the writings where that or a similar term might be used, it is done so informally. In England for instance there was mentioned a "Pinners Hall Sabbatarian church" and a "Mill Yard Church". These churches count because they were Sabbath keeping churches, but the names of these churches don't fit the narrative. The thread of the "Church of God" name is justified however, because the leaders of these churches refer to their congregations as the "church of God" or "churches of Elohim" in a more general way in some of their writings. There is also mention of the "Seventh Day Baptists" from whose records some of the information was lifted, as well as the Anabaptists, of whom it is claimed that some kept the seventh day Sabbath and called themselves the "Church of God."
It is claimed that the name "Church of God" is the only acceptable Biblical name that should be used as an incorporated name for God's people, but this can't be proven from scripture, even if you keep the English term "church" which is a mistranslation of the Greek word ekklesia, which would more accurately be translated as assembly, congregation, or even community. The word church comes from a completely different root word. The people of God are referred to in several ways in the Bible. In Acts 9:2 as well as Acts 24:14,22 they are known as people belonging to a sect called "the Way". Hebrews 12:23, "the congregation of the firstborn", Galatians 6:10, "the household of Faith" or "family of believers" depending on the translation. In 1Corinthians 3:16 we have "God's temple" or the "temple of God", 1Corinthians 12:27, "the body of Christ" or "Christ's body", Romans 16:16 "churches of Christ", 1Peter 5:2 "God's flock" or "flock of God", Acts 11:26 "Christians", Ephesians 1:1, "saints" or "holy people", as well as several places where they are referred to as the "church of God" keeping in mind that the English word church comes from the Greek word kyriakos, and not from the word ekklesia, which is the word used in every place you see the English word church in the scripture. In other places they are simply "the church in Ephesus" or "the church in Smyrna"(Revelation 2:1,8), designating congregations of believers in those geographical locations. By this reasoning you could set up a congregation in any city or town and just call it the "Church" or more accurately the "Assembly" of XYZ and still be within the Biblical guidelines of what to call a body of believers.
Concerned Sister
Voyce's article is a voice of "little cousin" (4000 US members in 1985) vs the millions member adventists and the powerful 150.000 member wcg mediamachine, asserting an independent voice.
ReplyDeleteHis frustration becomes clear when he cites "enemies of the church" and says it is a prerogative to associate oneself with the "true Israelites", actually making the point that a strong association with being or identifying with "physical Israel" existed centuries before BI.
I have here the minutes of one "separatist" church condemning a member for his persistant harping on the "jewish" sabbath. It seems that Church of God refugees after the Brownists left for America had "no other choice" than join the "other English churches" in refuge. After much prayer and discussion COG people became a nuissance within the ranks of the other groups.
Its kinda like sephardic jews joining a hassidic synagogue in 16th century germany since the outside world oblivious to jewish subtleties considers them all jews anyway and therefore a nuissance by definition, exactly like the many english separatist groups in refuge, bickering amongst themselves in relation to their larger protestant environment.
All these names, Brownists, Smythians, Robinsons, Ainsworthians, English Reformed, Episcopians etc, all names given to those that were living under death sentence.
I agree with Tonto. It is hard or impossible to see "unbroken lines" either through ministry or lay membership.
But I can see how many people in the diaspora of english sabbath keepers associated themselves with culturally like minded people even sunday keepers, with whom in hindsight they had major religious differences, which surfaced the longer they associated and exploded when they arrived in freedom in the USA, land of the free........ and then there was the usual adversity like crops trying to feed a family and keep a community intact over vast distances and theorizing without modern means of communication.
Nck
I would like to say that before Thomas Adans was ostracized and "marked" in 1644 by the Sunday keepers for his "irresponsible behavior" regarding his insistant evangelazing on tbe "jewish sabbath", the board had extensively discussed the issue, prayed with him, later the entire church congregation prayed together with him to mend his ways.
ReplyDeleteQuite different from receiving an e-mail to inform one is marked.
Nck
Sorry all, but if the lack of truth is due to Dugger starting his church from the COG Adventist, therefore it has not connection to the SDB is a complete lack of education on all of your parts.
ReplyDeleteOne these pages you have outlined often the connections to William Miller and the Adventist movement. I have never heard of the COG Adventist, thanks for that, but that again supports the history. Have any of you ever heard of thee person who introduced the Sabbath to the Millerites? Her name, Rachel Oakes, a Seventh Day Baptist from the Northeast and the wife of a prominent member of the SBAs.
Sorry, but you are wrong. There is a long history of Sabbath keepers going back centuries.
Sorry all, but if the lack of truth is due to Dugger starting his church from the COG Adventist, therefore it has not connection to the SDB is a complete lack of education on all of your parts.
ReplyDeleteOne these pages you have outlined often the connections to William Miller and the Adventist movement. I have never heard of the COG Adventist, thanks for that, but that again supports the history. Have any of you ever heard of thee person who introduced the Sabbath to the Millerites? Her name, Rachel Oakes, a Seventh Day Baptist from the Northeast and the wife of a prominent member of the SBAs.
Sorry, but you are wrong. There is a long history of Sabbath keepers going back centuries.
Sorry all, but if the lack of truth is due to Dugger starting his church from the COG Adventist, therefore it has not connection to the SDB is a complete lack of education on all of your parts.
ReplyDeleteOne these pages you have outlined often the connections to William Miller and the Adventist movement. I have never heard of the COG Adventist, thanks for that, but that again supports the history. Have any of you ever heard of thee person who introduced the Sabbath to the Millerites? Her name, Rachel Oakes, a Seventh Day Baptist from the Northeast and the wife of a prominent member of the SBAs.
Sorry, but you are wrong. There is a long history of Sabbath keepers going back centuries.
Lies . . . sloppy research . . . aren't those the hallmark of the Worldwide Church of God? Herman Hoeh was not a competent historian. HWA was not a theologian. Perhaps there is a better motto for Ambassador College than Recapture True Values. What would you suggest: Ambassador College, where critical thinking won't be found. Or, AC, where believes matter more than facts.
ReplyDeleteAugust 30, 2020 at 5:26 AM
ReplyDeleteWrote: "Sorry, but you are wrong. There is a long history of Sabbath keepers going back centuries."
Ok, then prove it. Here is your chance. Will you use a wcg article by Hoeh or will this have been some previous research you did?
Perhaps there is a better motto for Ambassador College than Recapture True Values. What would you suggest: Ambassador College, where critical thinking won't be found. Or, AC, where believes matter more than facts.
ReplyDeleteRecapture Tithe Slaves
Anonymous 5:26 AM said, "I have never heard of the COG Adventist".
ReplyDeleteMy recollection from reading either a Church of God, Seventh Day publication years ago or the Robert Coulter Church history book "The Story of the Church of God, Seventh Day" (I can't remember which one) was that the COG7D briefly used the name "Church of God (Adventist)" during its early history.
Richard
Tonto said "... However, they are not a continuous link, or an "unbroken line" of laying on of hands and providential passing of the torch in any kind of organized fashion."
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, but that fact is problematic for the various corporate groups if they let go of some of this faulty logic and skewed view of our own church history. In order to maintain the link to their own perceived power or authority over the rest of the congregation, they must uphold their legitimacy by linking themselves first to HWA and then to this organized institution called the "Church of God".
There is a catch twenty-two of sorts here though,and this can be demonstrated in the conflicting message of HWA himself, because when a man or group of men decide to break off from the previously established group or hierarchy, from which they legitimize their own authority, the link to that authority is severed, since in their view it comes from an unbroken line of one man laying hands on another. And so the person who departs is conflicted, because on one hand they want to distance themselves from the previous group or teachings of the previous group, but at the same time it is the previous hierarchy which approved their "ordination" which is what they think established their own legitimate authority in the first place. HWA's ministerial credentials on paper came from the COG Seventh Day. And so in separating from that group to promote his own ministry he made several conflicting claims. First, he claimed his authority came solely from God, who used him alone to establish doctrines lost to the church for 1800 years, which in itself was a fabrication, because many of his teachings can be found in the writings of others during the 1800's and early 1900's if you do some digging, and not all of those teachings came from other Sabbath keepers. At the same time however, he also couldn't completely dismiss the authority of the hierarchy from which he gained his ministerial credentials, and thus the doctrine of "church eras" was instituted and promoted, because this enabled him to both acknowledge that the previous group was a legitimate part of the "Church of God" while at the same time diminishing their power and authority by labeling them as the "Sardis era" or dead church while simultaneously promoting himself as the modern day embodiment of the more righteous "Philadelphian era".
Francis Bampfield might serve as another example. He started out as a member of the Church of England and was ordained to the clergy by the hierarchy of that church. He later came to disagree with certain teachings of that church and was eventually placed in prison. While there it is said he became convinced that he should keep the seventh day sabbath and then taught that to others, eventually raising up the Pinners Hall Sabbatarian Church in London. Bampfield is claimed to have stated or implied that he was not called into the ministry by men, but by God. So where I ask is the "unbroken line" of ordination here? If you say it came from the Chruch of England, that is problematic, because in no way shape or form can it be claimed they are part of the "Church of God", but if you maintain that Bampfield took his cues solely from God, that destroys the idea of the unbroken line of ordination these churches claim, and diminishes their own claim of apostolic power over others merely because another man happened to lay hands on them. It also opens the door to the idea that God can use whomever he wishes, and can raise up legitimate shepherds on His own, independently of someone else's approval or hierarchy. And this is a dangerous idea for anyone among the laity to begin to think, because it means God might use one of them, without the approval of the established hierarchy. Perish the thought.
Concerned Sister
Continuing Church of god never had a legitimate laying on of hands for succession from Meredith's LCD. What Thiel started is a bastard child masquerading as a church, and in reality, it's just another nasty religious cult. False religion takes many forms, like Satan does, in order to deceive people that have no critical thought process.
ReplyDeleteThe point is that the laying on of hands or lack thereof does not alone determine whether someone is a servant of God or not. This is why we are told to prove all things and hold to that which is good, as well as discerning the fruits of a person, a movement, or a group, before we make a judgement. This requires a critical thought process, and not buying into an idea just because it sounds good on the surface. If the facts don't add up, then they don't and we can't bury our heads in the sand simply because what we might find is unpleasant or doesn't always line up with what we have been conditioned to believe. If Thiel or anyone else claiming to be a prophet, apostle, etc., does not produce good fruit, if they misrepresent the truth to promote themselves, if they take advantage of the ignorance of others in order to gain prestige or power, they are not of God, period. You can't excuse their behavior simply because someone else laid hands on them or they make proclamations about themselves, whether the laying on of hands was present or not. However, you also can't automatically dismiss someone just because they didn't rise through the political ranks of your particular church hierarchy, if what they say is truth, and good fruits are demonstrated.
ReplyDeleteConcerned Sister
Anyway, Sabbath keeping is not a true sign of the original faith because the founder of Christianity says the sabbath is 'Done away' with (Colossians 2:16)
ReplyDeleteSo historically, sabbath-observers were actually heretics, not true Christians (Galatians 4:10, Colossians 2:16)
But I bet you still collect the tithe pay check anon 8.23.
DeleteThere's a better scripture than that specifically about Jesus doing away with the sabbath. John 5:18 and the Greek word "luo".
ReplyDeleteConcerned Sister
ReplyDeleteExcellent case for John the Baptist.
It is very hard for people to understand the concept of a Church after Millenia of Christian development. (Catholic/Protestant) Especially after Henry VIII and Cromwell decided on a 3rd Way apart from both.
All this became clear to me when I studied Islam.
Islam is much closer to Rabbinical Judaism and thus the Church of God MOVEMENT.
Islam has no Central Authority like a Pope.
Local Mullahs/Teachers/Rabbi's decide on issues although ALL BELIEVERS ARE PART OF THE "UMMAH" or body of believers even Shiites and Sunni as the two major branches who differ on major points.
Many of HWA or COG teachings become clear when one studies Islam.
For instance people on this blog have complained on how awfull and cruel they have been treated for having to abstain from food and drinks for 24 hours one day each year.
Both Islam and WCG have/had the same exemptions for cases who could not fulfill the requirement. Whereas Islam differs in a 40 day fasting period when the sky is lit.
Also the requirement for Zakath or the giving of alms to the poor.
Many have complained about 50% spending toward the church.
Also Islam and WCG had the same exemptions for those who couldn't make the extra 10 percent. and the 3rd tithe was unfortunately only abolished for the European Churches in january 1986. Which was a big mistake since 3rd tithe should only be required in nations with a 3rd rate social system like the USA.
To make a long story short I won't go into the "submission or government" thing COG talk about a lot. Of course the very world Islam means "to submit." For a fuller understanding of COG teaching I submit you to your local Mullah.
So if one wants to understand "The Church" as a spiritual organism as it was intended millenia ago, go to your Islamic brothers to understand "the community of believers" or the Ummah.
Thats why HWA said to Mubarak after handing him a 100.000 1984 dollar cheque (as first installment of a million dollars), "that we all worship the same Allah." (It's on video for the morons who dare to question my authority on the subject.)
nck
Also,
ReplyDeleteTo understand the COG relation to the State.
There is no relation to the State.
COG IS the State.
That's why the Munsons of this world do not vote, do not take up weapons in Vietnam, or decide for themselves which laws are applicable. HWA called himself an Ambassador "representing a Kingdom" and Rader called himself "his Secretary of State". Thats why GTA could be blamed for faulty direction as "Head of Church Administration" rather than the "Apostle" who would be the ultimate judge or arbitrator in religious affairs. Exactly like Iran where the Mullahs are over the Prime Minister who runs daily affairs.
Likewise the problem with PURE OR FUNDAMENTAL (ist) ISLAM.
There can be no separation between Church and State. The Ummah or body of believers lives on a certain TERRITORY and therefore makes it HOLY. It can NEVER retreat from lands, it can only be defeated. The Ataturk Turkish model of separation between "church and state"is anathema therefore Erdohan is changing it from the Ataturk model toward a more fundamentalistic model in its struggle with Iran for moral dominance in the region.
Likewise in Catholicism, the "Church" IS 'The Kingdom of God on Earth."
Therefore a "socialist Europe" would conform to the Catholic Kingdom of God."
My point.
I never have a point.
nck
Ah, I remembered the point I wanted to make.
ReplyDeleteWhere "Christianity" would look at the COG experience as a schism, cult, splinter or fragment.
I view COG as a "traditional undercurrent or movement" that unlike Islam or Christianity experienced no further growth since it was not political, partisan or agressive.
Every now and then over the millenia new charismstic leaders would ride that wave when traditional structures would need transformation. (like the entire 20th century rocked each and every traditional structure revolutionary.)
Hence Islams waiting for the Mahdi.
HWA was the American version since the age was American, the Poor of Lyon and Franciscans as countermovement to the Waldensians rode their wave.
Today the Pope is almost COG in its acceptance of judaism as its *older brother", footwashing ceremonies etc etc
Nck
The Church of God Seventh Day, was known as the Church of God Adventist until around 1910. It then changed its name to the current form. WCG changed its name from Radio Church of God in 1967.
ReplyDelete"Anyway, Sabbath keeping is not a true sign of the original faith because the founder of Christianity says the sabbath is 'Done away' with (Colossians 2:16)
ReplyDeleteSo historically, sabbath-observers were actually heretics, not true Christians (Galatians 4:10, Colossians 2:16)"
my goodness! what "bible" are you reading???
Tonto
ReplyDeleteThat's common knowledge.
But do you know the name of the (HWA) Radio Church of God before 1934??
nck
nck: could you direct us to the video where HWA gives Mubarak 100 grand? Yes, I'm moron which is why I haven't fell.
ReplyDelete5.15 AM
ReplyDeleteIt's Troll Guy. He's the court Jester of Banned.
8:50
ReplyDeleteHi 8:50.
I used the word "moron" to sift many people out and only have the "not to be told off" stallwarts, direct questions to me. So I salute you.
The Mubarak visit is in a World Tomorrow video on youtube.
However I believe the Allah remark and cheque are only edited in the "Behind the Work" video of that year.
The cheque actually was the first installment of 10 such cheques for the 1 million agreed with Sadat for the "Sinai three faiths Center".
The Center never materialized under Mubarak, so I believe not even the first 100.000 was ever transferred.
But I am not sure.
Egypt was of course for decades the largest recipient of "US aid", wink wink wink as CIA interested people are well aware. Hey, It was the Cold War and the Soviets were good for the Assuan Dam, but the US for Peace.
Mike Pompeo was trumpeting the first direct flight from Israel to Sudan the other week.
Today we have the first direct from Israel to UAE.
HWA had the first direct flight from Cairo to Israel.
If you cant find the video, let me know. Otherwise look it up in the biweekly Worldwide News of that time. Its in the video though and Mubarak looks startled.
Nck
Would Faye Dunaway run-away if told "the Law was not Done-away"?
ReplyDeleteAnon 1028 ...as that would take all the fun away...
ReplyDeleteWas the cheque in USD?
ReplyDeleteI remember the Allah remark, "Allah" is not the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; it's a version of the pagan moon god.
11:54
DeleteYour assumption is a 1994 American Evangelical fraudulent theory.
It's an insult to religious studies in general and muslims in particular.
Evangelicals should not be sourced on other religions or history.
Nck
12:56am Your problem is that it was the Jews who "claimed" that Jesus loosened the sabbath. Nothing in John 5 shows that he actually did.
ReplyDeleteI'd also like to know how not judging in respect of does away with the sabbath.
" Tonto said...
ReplyDeleteThe Church of God Seventh Day, was known as the Church of God Adventist until around 1910. It then changed its name to the current form. WCG changed its name from Radio Church of God in 1967.
August 31, 2020 at 3:59 AM"
Not exactly correct Tonto, but who cares anyway?
According to the book by Robert Coulter, entitled: The Journey A History of the Church of God (Seventh Day), the Armstrongs began attending with the Church of God in Willamette Valley sometime in 1927-28, after HWA had been baptized by a cleric of the Baptist Church in May or June of 1927, and Loma first became convinced by a friend to keep the Sabbath in 1926. HWA preached his first sermon in the Oregon congregation in the summer of 1928, and received his ministerial credentials from the Oregon State Conference of the COG Seventh Day in June of 1931. The Oregon State Conference according to Coulter was a part of the Stanberry General Conference in Missouri, and as such would have made HWA also a member of the Stanberry Conference at that time, which HWA denied, either because he misunderstood how it worked or because he was misrepresenting the facts. The Oregon Conference was in fact formally recognized as a divisional unit of the larger General Conference in Stanberry in 1931. See pg.310 of the above mentioned book.
ReplyDeleteIn 1933, after a meeting of the General Conference in Stanberry, a split occurred among the leadership led by A.N.Dugger and others, who severed their relationship with the Stanberry, Mo. Conference and formed an independent conference with their stateside "headquarters" based in Salem, West Virginia, and their world "headquarters" based in Jerusalem. At this point, HWA transferred his loyalty and ministerial credentials to the Salem Conference and became a representative of that group,serving as one of their seventy "evangelists" when his name was drawn out of a box along with sixty-nine others who were given the same title. He was officially "ordained" by the Salem Conference and received ministerial credentials from that group in 1934. The author of the above book maintains that HWA was an official representative of the Salem Conference until 1938, and provides excerpts in his book of examples of reports of HWA's radio programs, preaching activities, etc., as published in Salem's Bible Advocate as late as 1937 and viewed to be done on behalf of that church group. See pg. 314 of Coulter's book.
So to answer NCK's above question to Tonto, HWA was considered a minister of the COG Seventh Day before 1934, and an evangelist and representative of the Salem Conference until 1938, while he simultaneously began publishing his early issues of the Plain Truth in 1934, and running radio programs in the same year. So, was HWA then both a member of his own "Radio Church of God" from 1934 as well as an official representative of the Salem sect of the COG7, and if so, were they aware of his divided loyalties?
An interesting side note is the observation that HWA and family began attending with the COG7 sometime in 1927-28, and by the summer of 28 he, who would be considered an extreme novice by most of the COG groups of today regardless of how many hours he claimed to have spent in a library, was giving sermons within that group! He had been baptized by a Baptist preacher, and had only been keeping the Sabbath for a few months. This would never fly in the groups of today. To begin with, the validity of his baptism would be called into question and he would have to spend weeks or months in counsel being schooled in all points of church doctrine, and possibly re-baptized. He would then have to go through some sort of speaker's training such as Spokesman's Club, and be a member in good standing for sometime before even being given the opportunity to lead songs or give a sermonette. He did not have to jump through any of the hoops that anyone wishing to join one of these groups today would be put through, and yet he is hailed as the end time apostle, prophet, etc. of the twentieth century by most of these groups. The double standard here is palpable.
Concerned Sister
Concerned sister.
ReplyDeleteI liked the observation on HWA being a novice. Today he would have been required to have read "mystery of the ages", accept the "prophethood", of the resident moghul, and accept all kinds of "little books", or petty requirements, before even his tithes would be an acceptable offering to the lord.
I was joking to Tonto.
Never Ever is it mentioned that before Radio Church was incorporated, the name of the church was something like "7th street church of god of portland" or something, I forgot exactly.
The Radio COG was the name of the "Outreach Radio Ministry" , but I saw the very earliest of literature adressed to the other name.
I wanted to find it for this answer, but it might be only on one internetpage of the very billions of sites.
Nck
To Prove it and this comment by Jim
ReplyDeleteBut, even still, did those have the name “church of God”? Whether or not was required, Zinzendorf's German SDBs were called the Congregation of God in the Spirit. Then, in about 1803 Pastor Dunham, likely an ancestor of President Obama's mom, was a pastor with the English speaking SDBs his ordination certificate was listed him as part of the Church of God. Joseph White, Ellen G.s husband said in the meeting that the SDAs sharted, said the Church was always called Church of God and then stated he wanted to be sure to give it a different name to identify itself more clearly. Cranmer, who is considered one of the founder of COG7 started his group and called the Church of Christ, then he came into a group in Marion Iowa called the COG. There is so much more that goes back to the early 1500s and the English, German and Czech Sabbath keepers had communications with each other and if you read their writings, they said the same things, used the same arguments.
The HWA and Mubarak exchange can be found in the Mideast Special(part 1) video on YouTube. The exchange starts at around the 6:40 mark. The Allah remarks are at about the 9:32 mark. I googled Herbert W. Armstrong and Mubarak and found it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXumvBn1nW0
ReplyDeleteHere is a quote of what was said by HWA about Allah(verbal uhs, ums, etc. removed) to Mubarak with Mubarak nodding and saying yes, etc. once in a while through the exchange... "We are living in a creation. There has to be a creator. And in the Christian world we call the creator God. And in the Hebrew world or, the world of Judaism they call him God. And, you call him Allah,... the same God. And God is going to bring us peace, but there is a reason why He is using these three nations now, and if we don't bring peace now, at least it is going to come. Allah will bring us peace. And not only to these three nations, but to the whole world. It is going to come to the whole earth. And, I'm not in politics. I'm an observer. I just look on. I represent God, Allah, and all people, not any one nation, not any one religion, not any one government. But I'm a friend of all and I work for peace among all nations, and that,(pointing to the check) is a contribution to peace..."
So, if Allah and the Christian God are really one and the same, then why wouldn't a Muslim equate their Allah to our Jesus Christ? If I view Jesus as my Savior, High Priest, Mediator, etc. why would this be problematic to someone who worships Allah, if they are one and the same? And why would a Christian be killed for not renouncing the name of Jesus Christ and replacing it with Allah, if they are the same thing?
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. This Jesus is 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the corner stone.' Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:8-12
Concerned Sister
Concerned sister.
ReplyDeleteIn trying to find the early church name before "Radio" I saw that HWA after Dugger reorganized accepted the "Jeans" congregation to cooperate with Salem, but the "Masonic Eugene" was more "his lovechild". It seems the members did have the final say rather than "the resident evangelist."
Probably why HWA switches between the titles *pastor* and evangelist, to establish the relstionship with the local "shepperd" (and who provided for mere "compensation", or an *independent salary" to pay the 7 dollar rent.
Nck
Concerned Sister.
ReplyDeleteIndeed. By HWA's own account, he preached and evangelized in the Willamette WITHOUT being member of one of the 2 factions. His loyalties lay with the Church of God as a spiritual body. ONLY EUGENE was different. That ge considered the mother church, his constituency, those that chose to fellowship without being part of one if the two factions.
HWA makes a distinction between those that left the church in 1974,who "stole members" by preaching AGAINST WCG, and his own actions, where he considered ONLY the Eugene church as "His" patorate under God, while "cooperating" with the members and cog's that considered themselves part of one of the two factions....... maybe even up to the 1940's.
The main distinction he makes is that he never preached "against" the 2 factions as the Eugene church started to grow into the WCG and they separated amicably as compared. So HWA makes a distinction between "1974/1978 discord, drawing awayers" and "1935 Eugene Organic growth", without legal pretenses.
I believe that account somewhat since until 1944/1946 we see Cog7 ministers being invited to preach at the FOT.
Until the "physical separation" with the move to Pasadena.
I guess the factions had their own understanding of the preaching role of HWA and the place of the Eugene Church. At least they tried to shut the Broadcast down.
Also interesting to note that HWA had to completely type out his broadcast sermons at the start of wwII, as the announcer would check for the government if he would deviate.
So far free press during times of war.
No wonder Paul Verhoevens "Startroopers" movie was a flop at release and today is considered a great artists impression of the start of Americas fascist age. It takes time to recognize the unseen hand and artists as free thinkers have their fingers on the pulse of the age. HWA was a religious artist for sure.
Nck
Oh Please Concerned Sister.
ReplyDeleteThe problem the Jews and Muslims have with Jesus is that God is ONE.
And for the killings, ask the Crusaders.
nck
Moron here: thanks nck and Concerned Sister for the HWA Mubarak video. The insanity of it all, giving away members' hard earned tithe money to..............
ReplyDeleteNCK, Both the Jews and Muslims reject Jesus Christ as Creator, so to equate Allah with the Christian "Creator" is dishonest and misleading. At least in most COG circles, Jesus is viewed as the God being who spoke in Genesis 1. They understand Him to be the "Word" of John 1:1-3. He was with God, and He was God, and through Him all things were made. "The Word was made flesh and made His dwelling among us..." John 1:14 The fact that Muslims acknowledge a creator is not the issue. The fact that Muslims do not view Jesus Christ as Creator is. I don't pretend to know all the ends and outs of the Islamic religion, but I'm pretty sure they themselves do not view Allah to be the same being as Jesus.
ReplyDeleteI also understand that much bloodshed has happened in the name of Christianity. The Crusades are one example. The Inquisition would be another. Yet another would be the "witch" hunts that took place roughly from the mid 1400's to the mid 1700's among Protestants and Catholics both in Europe as well as on American soil. Sin and evil have happened among all religions and all peoples at one time or another. But this isn't the point. The point is that HWA represented himself to Mubarak as some sort of neutral bystander who was not there to represent any one religion. He did this funded by tithe payers who were under the impression that He was supposedly running around the globe representing the "Christian" religion and proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. You might choose to agree or not agree, but at least to me, that appears disingenuous.
Concerned Sister
Hello CC,
ReplyDeleteI do not recall we ever quarrelled since I find your comments so well put and sincerely balanced.
To clarify.
A) The Muslim relationship to Jesus is troublesome.
They esteem him extremely high, above any man, as a figure of light and a prophet bringing revelation. A mysterious figure born from Maryam.
The conflict is with the ONENESS of God or Allah. So the Christian triune God or the Armstrong bi "polar" family God would be Anathema to them. Perhaps also the reason why the Jews sought the Romans to crucify Jesus because of his claim.
Islam is both influenced by Syriac Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism in the diaspora from after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. (and perhaps The Church of God fled from Jerusalem (Ebionites) depending on ones view). Unless of course one accepts the divine revelation of Islam.
Indeed HWA claimed NOT to represent any "organized religion." He claimed "ambassadorship for the "kingdom of god" on earth and God himself. Not any eartly corporately organized structure.
That's why I used to call Armstrongism a "movement" and oppose the insertions made by detractors on how a "church is supposed to do or be organized." In "Why the Church?" Armstrong explains, "to get educated in the ways of god through the spirit", nothing more.
The Armstrong Gospel was to "announce that coming Kingdom", not to introduce Jesus to CIA backed World Leaders.
I see no disingenuity toward the tithe payers, since everything was reported upon and everything was explained in print and speech.
I said that the gift probably never materialized since the "Three Faith Center" never materialized. The only disingenuity may be that the "members" did not get to vote on gifting to "the three faith center", so we had to go with the 400 or so organisation fighting disease, illiteracy, wwf, unicef etc that the officers of the AICF had selected.
But those were published too.
nck
Nck cherry picks from the different era's of WCG to present his argument.
DeleteNo, 4:56
ReplyDeleteI only pick from the "established wcg so called philadelphia era."
nck