One of the great myths of Armstrongism is that COG "believers" are special and set apart from the rest of Christianity. The rest of Christianity apparently is too stupid to understand God, Christ, and scriptures unlike COG sects located here and there in the United States. In spite of the fact that millions have died over the centuries standing up for their faith (which no COG leader or minister ever has ever done) American COG leaders and ministers claim to be able to determine just who is a good Christian and who is not. Given the track record of rebellious COG leaders that continue to cause denominational divisions and whose ranks are filled with abusive, adulterous, and alcoholic ministers, none of these groups are in a position to tell members who they can or cannot marry.
In an article on whether a COGWA member should marry outside the COGWA belief system there was this:
What, then, is an unbeliever? In brief, an unbeliever is the opposite of the person above. Regardless of his academic knowledge of Bible instruction, he does not believe the truth and does not follow Christ with commitment and action. Again, the Scriptures must be our guide.
John 3:36: “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Acts 14:2: “But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brethren” (emphasis added throughout).
Romans 4:20: “He [Abraham] did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,”
1 Timothy 1:13: “Although I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.”
Hebrews 3:12: “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.”
Unbelief is thus described as a lack of belief or faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ. An unbeliever will not always worship idols or be hostile to God, but may simply not know or believe God and His truth. What about the millions today who “believe” in Christ? There is more to being a believer than just claiming the name of Jesus—one has to understand and follow Jesus, as preached by the apostles. Notice Paul’s words:
2 Corinthians 11:4: “For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!”
Today many preach “another Jesus”—for example, one who came to abolish God’s law by “nailing it to the cross.” Those in God’s Church are begotten through faith in the gospel of Christ, while others are attracted to a gospel about Christ. The point is that a person who does not share that same belief in (understanding and desire to obey) Jesus is not spirituallycompatible with one who is a believer. So a professing “Christian” is not necessarily a believer in biblical terms. Only those who are called by God can become believers (John 6:44). Marrying Within The Faith
1 Corinthians 7:14
ReplyDeleteFor the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
Do you have a link to the article?
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
ReplyDelete”1 Timothy 1:13: “Although I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
So which is it? If you don't believe, you've had it or if you don't believe, you're fine as long as it was done ignorance in unbelief. (Here we see a good example how Gospel Jesus and Paul differed in their views.)
No one can be blamed if they don't believe something that is unbelievable can they? Actually it's not a question. They can't be. Belief without evidence is lame.
You need to define the word 'unbelief'.
DeleteIs it the same in both sentences.
If a COGWA young adult is expected to marry another same-race COGWA young adult, the pickings are awfully slim in a cult so small.
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ReplyDeleteSurely Dennis these two verses are completely consistent with each other.
”1 Timothy 1:13: “Although I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Paul is making the point that prior to his conversion he did what he did through lack of understanding, or ignorance of God’s ways. However, once he understood the truth of Jesus Christ, he changed, and he received the mercy that God was offering.
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Again this is showing what happens when the truth of Jesus Christ is revealed to a person. They can change, as Paul did, and obtain mercy, or alternatively (unlike Paul) they can decide to continue their life the same way as before.
God’s mercy was available, but they choose not to receive it by changing to God’s ways. The true position was revealed to them, but they continued their life unchanged, in effect acting as if they didn't believe God. This would have been Paul’s position too if he had not changed once he was shown God’s ways.
This seems the common sense way of reading these two verses, unless you are deliberately trying to force a contradiction into them which isn’t really there.
On the issue of marriage, since a Christian is one who follows Christ, a Christian should ask God to choose his/her mate for them. Especially considering that God is the potter and a Christian is the clay.
ReplyDeleteThe ACOGs teaching about not marrying outside the church is incorrect. Christ has on occasion led people to marry outside the church. The reason these churches have this teaching is a self serving one. They fear that if members marry outside their faith, they are more likely to leave the church. Which means less tithe money and a loss of members to lord over.
The scripture used by these churches to justify their position is "don't be unequally yoked," but it's a narrow self serving interpretation. According to these churches, if a reasonable person marries a toxic personality inside the church, they are equally joked. But if a reasonable person marries a reasonable person out side the church, they are unequally yoked. They ignore that religious comparability is one, but not the only factor regarding overall comparability.
A phenomenon I noticed in these churches is that it's members with morally challenged children who push the "don't marry outside the church" rule. They do this hoping that that better natured members will marry their difficult offspring out of desperation, since there are few members to choose from. This is a type of fraud.
Again, people need to follow Christ's lead in this matter rather than callous self serving ministers.
Dennis
ReplyDeleteMercy does not mean "you're fine."
Some 60% of all marriages end up in divorce.
ReplyDeleteEven in the best of situations, and compatibility, it is a tough journey. Adding in major religious differences is certainly one that can lead to conflicts. This goes for anybody, church, or group.
There is wisdom in carefully evaluating a marriage outside of your faith. Ultimately, the choice is yours , and yours to live with. Having a church "police" such a decision , or forbid such a decision is beyond their purvey however.
60% is quite a lot. What evidence does Tonto have for 60%?
DeleteThis post evokes memory of my most condemning, disheartening, and hurtful experience in my 13 years in the Worldwide Church of God. There were many others, but this was the most bitter.
ReplyDeleteI came into the church, already married to a wonderful, blameless wife (my first mistake, believing that Herbert W Armstrong spoke, alone, the 'real truth' about scripture). From that start, I always detected the questioning eyes or attitudes about my unseen, "unconverted" wife. I was hindered, almost to the point of condemnation for continuing to remain so unevenly yoked, it seemed.
Then, just a year or so before I was able to leave and return to my Presbyterian roots, I had to endure a sermon, about 90 minutes, telling in minute detail how being married to a non-member would be so horribly sinful, an affront to God himself. Proof-text scripture one after another, told how no one should ever, even for an instant, entertain such a notion. Simply, to even consider taking a non-member as a wife would condemn one to the Lake of Fire.
During that sermon, I could, at the same time, feel the condemning eyes of the good members of the congregation peering at me, over in my assigned corner seat, alone and forlorn, while they breathed confidently, knowing that they hadn't and wouldn't commit the great sin I had.
At the end of the service, I tried to quietly stagger out of the meeting hall, fearful of anyone confronting me. As I exited to my car, no one came forward to offer any consolation or encouragement. To the contrary, I was a living case in point; an example of how horrible life would be to live married to an unconverted, non-member mate.
As a grown man, I wept uncontrollably in my 45-minute journey back to my house, back to my waiting wife. I summoned the fortitude to re-compose myself, so as not to reveal to her what I had just heard.
The Worldwide Church of God, the Armstrongs, and all that they stood for. For me, it was only fears and tears.
Are we expected to believe this ?
DeleteMy best WCG friend married a non-member, with full ministerial approval and a WCG wedding. From my experience, this is an exception and I'm sure if a lady in the WCG would not get the same approval.
ReplyDeleteA number of men I met in the WCG apparently rushed to marry a non-member before joining, or were able to convince their prospective spouses to join - and in many cases, drop out.
In the 1970's I found the book "Divorce and Remarriage" by Guy L. Duty to be the best explanation of the topic in the NT I found. It was pretty much what the conclusion was in the Sytematic Theology Project that HWA trashed. I went by that view evermore and saved myself a lot of stress and divorced and remarried people a lot of misery. If still available and one wishes a good read on the topic and it can still be found, I highly recommend it.
ReplyDeleteIt is said there is four must haves for a successful marriage: the same goals,the same child rearing philosophy, the same religious preferences, and the same understanding on the use of money.
ReplyDeleteThe ultimate keys for a successful marriage are to be attracted to one another and have a lot in common.
The COG philosophy is that oneness in the obedience to God's laws and the supposed in dwelling of God's Holy Spirit all under the supervision and umbrella of the COG will lead to marriatal success.
If this was the only successful formula, then there wouldn't be marital problems or divorces in the COGS between and among the membership.
Now "that" problem is only going to get worse because there is fewer and fewer potential persons that could be attracted to one another and have a lot in common beyond Sabbath and Feast observance.
From the 1980's to the early 90's in the WCG, our greatest church growth wasn't from the gospel witness, nor television programs and literature, it was from the 18, 19 and 20 year olds that left the church and came back later with a married partner and sometimes a baby or two.
A lot of those "partners" ended up getting baptized and became full contributing and sustaining members of the church.
I on the other hand married a girl "in" the church and knew 5 days after the marriage that it wasn't going to last. Why? Because other than being attracted to one another and obedience to and observance of God's laws the stark reality was we really didn't have a lot in common.
If the end goal is a non married state just as the Angels according to Jesus Christ, then what's the big fuss if young people are able to find their true soul mate anywhere and by themselves and live an enjoyable and peaceful life.
4.37 PM
ReplyDelete"..unless you are deliberately trying to force a contradiction into them which isn't really there"
Yes, Dennis is deliberately trying to force a contradiction. And he complains about being called Dennis the spiritual menace.
A long-time minister in COGWA said during a recent message that he would never think about trying to match single people for marriage.
ReplyDeleteThat's too bad, because some COG single adults could use a bit of help. Especially if they're isolated in congregations with few other candidates, if any.
Disgusting belief. It really is. Cogwa believes “Christians ” have a gospel about CHrist and not of Christ. Stupid word games. I’ve seldom met someone in the cogs with the faith of my baptist family members. They believe the good news of Christ that He died for their sins and rose again. They have repented and follow Him in faith. That is not a gospel ABOUT Christ. Cogwa doesn’t seem to understand that which makes me wonder about their conversion. Theirs is a supposed head knowledge, but the knowledge is wrong. And none of them observe the Law as there are many parts of the law they ignore.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that the title is a little misleading. At least from what was posted, it didn't say that they had to marry within COGWA. Unless there was more to the story, it seems to say that they should marry within the wider COG, not COGWA exclusively. What do COGWA teach on inter-COG dating and marriage?
ReplyDeleteAll the COG’s bully their members about it! Just this last FOT I spoke to one of the brethren in RCG. His minister forced him to break up with his fiancée because his future wife had decided to leave the RCG only weeks before they were supposed to get married. And he did what he was told to do, although she was pregnant with their child.
ReplyDeleteSo their are three victims now because of that ‘christian’ attitude: he is miserable, she has to take care of their baby on her own and that child is growing up without a father.
It has nothing to do with what the scriptures say. It’s about RCG ministers wanting to be in control and pretend they’re God.
When I was a young teenager back in Worldwide, there was a minister whose son sexually assaulted a members daughter. I always wondered what happened to the poor girl. There was another minister who was always verbally attacking many of young males who wanted to date saying that they had nothing but thoughts of " animal lust". Later on, that minister it was later revealed that the minister was gay.
ReplyDeleteClaiming that many other denominations teach "nailing the commandments to the cross" is another example of HWA marketing. So in order to exalt oneself, demean the opposition. Smear them as commandment rejecting religious philistines. Another leaf from Herbies "How to win by playing dirty" handbook.
ReplyDelete"The rest of Christianity apparently is too stupid to understand God, Christ, and scriptures unlike COG sects located here and there in the United States."
ReplyDeletesounds like someone got their feelings hurt.....
and what do you mean by "the rest of Christianity"?
Dennis is right: The 'Apostle' Paul was patently anti-Judaistic:
ReplyDeletehe didn't care about 'food sacrificed to idols' (unlike Acts & Revelation)
Any wonder the canonizers & Protestant reformers wanted to toss out the book of Revelation?
Armstrong would have you believe the early church not just recommended, but enforced the observance of the Jewish liturgical calendar! Christians - free or slave - across the Roman Empire & Greek world must observe these days or you're out on your ass!
If this was true, it would be the biggest news both within NT-scripture & across the secular world!
Instead, what do we hear? Nothing...except Paul tossing out the Jewish Liturgical days (Colossians 2 + Galatians 4)
In most congregations about one third of the couples have a non-member mate. Every time our minister gives his warning from Corinthians about being "unequally yoked" I want to leap up and stop this Armstrong cultist attack on our members. Should the believing partner divorce their mate. The Bible is clear the as mentioned in a previous post "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."
ReplyDeleteThe Corinthian discussion of unequally yoke never mentions marriage. Corinth was a depraved urban trade center and evil things mentioned wouldn't be associated with all individuals.
My story is being married without any intimate activity between us, following the rules. it didn't work. My wife had no sexual feelings and was hugged twice in 17 years.
My first wife fortunately divorced me. I meet the love of life a church "meat market" on a holiday singles meet. We married and 7 months later she died a hideously painful death in my living room from cancer.
I was trough with BS of dating within the Church. As a middle aged male I knew there was nothing out there to date. But the married ministers has no problem to tell you to live alone the rest of your life. In Genesis, God acknowledges that is "not good for man to live alone", which is ignored by most ministers on this issue.
So I dated outside the church for years often losing a prized catch when I told them about not celebrating Christmas etc.
But after over 150 meetings an a few dating I married a sweet loving women who now is a "member". I never asked her to come to church or join. That was her choice. She now plays the piano for the hymns and sings special music and would be considered a better christian than myself.
The title of this post is misleading but not surprising if that's the perception behind closed doors.
ReplyDeleteIn the splintering from WCG, marriage has suffered the most. But I would say marriage has morphed into only being desired for the Ministerial elite and their offspring and not for the membership.
ReplyDeleteIn the local UCG congregation, the old minister seemed to have raised his children to marry completely outside of the church and end up divorced.
A political animal who came over to the UCG from the LCG had raised his children to marry completely outside of the church and had basically bragged about it. He pressured the local UCG minister to credential him as a UCG “minister” even though he was unqualified and unfit to be raised to that level. He did not raise his own family properly but yet he wanted to rule over other people. He wanted to bring in a perverse old man and kick out other people's children.
People attending with the UCG mostly raised their children to marry completely outside of the church. They did not seem to have taught their children anything at all about the church even when they had a WCG background.
And yet the UCG thinks that people out in the world should be impressed by such a small group of such godless and immoral people and should sign up for some of the evil that the UCG is so full of.
DD: So which is it? The unbeliever knowingly does not believe - John 3:36; Paul ignorantly did not believe - I Tim 1:13.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what the point is exactly in making the distinction in marriage within COGWA and marriage between a cogwa member and another COG member. By extending acceptable people from 8 thousand people to 35,000 people out of 7.8 billion people doesn't seem much different. Though still cogwa believes cogwa is best. Perhaps parents might accept someone from UCG or maybe LCG (pushing it). PCG is total poison as is RCG. So it is probably only out of a population of up to 20,000 that are good to okay.
ReplyDeleteThe daughter of one COGWA minister started dating a mainstream christian while in college. This boyfriend eventually came into COGWA and this was so wonderful they made him a minister.
ReplyDeleteThis study paper reflects what the COGWA doctrine desire but reality is quite different.
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ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 11:22 AM said...“PCG is total poison as is RCG.”
In actual practice, the PCG is anti-family. The PCG tries to destroy, wreck, and prevent any normal family relationships. The PCG promotes sexual immorality.
The actually document does not say that marrying outside the church is "forbidden". It's just not a good idea, and a person should marry within. Not sure this warrants discussion as though it is a new thing. I would think that in any non COG Church that takes Christ and the Bible seriously, the same advice would be given. What about those in PCG who have been told to leave their non member mate and cut off ties with their kids? Where is the logic in that? And where is the logic in being told that visiting another COG group to attend a baptism of a friend's son would render that person "no longer a member in good standing"! Yes, that happened to me.
ReplyDelete@anon3:35
DeleteALL the COG’s are hypocrite. They say it is not ‘forbidden’ to date with or marry someone outside the ‘true church’. But I know from my own experience that if you do, they will make your life miserable, even telling you that you will be kicked out.. And the same goes for family and adult children on the outside. I’ve heard members say that they were told to cut all ties with their kids on the outside.
ALL COG’s are bible based cults.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 3:35 PM said...“What about those in PCG who have been told to leave their non member mate and cut off ties with their kids? Where is the logic in that? And where is the logic in being told that visiting another COG group to attend a baptism of a friend's son would render that person 'no longer a member in good standing'! Yes, that happened to me.”
The PCG is a truly satanic cult. It used Herbert W. Armstrong's name and photograph all the time and pretended to be faithfully following his teachings in order to attract HWA's followers and their wallets. Then the PCG somehow managed to edit, change, warp, mangle, and pervert in the most satanic ways virtually everything that HWA had actually taught. The PCG is one of the vilest splinter groups around.
Salvation by faith is a stupid doctrine. Why should I be saved for believing what nobody can really prove? Why can't I just be saved for being good?
ReplyDelete9:17 PM
DeleteIOW salvation by works then.
People are ungovernable.
ReplyDelete"Every man did what was right in his own eyes."
Modern women are feminists and treacherous. If you marry one you will end up divorced and broke or a cuck.
ReplyDeleteIs Anon 9:22 the apostle Paul?
ReplyDeleteTonto,
ReplyDeleteFor the divorce rate to be 60% every currently married couple would have had to have already been married at least once previously. The real percentage is closer to 25%.
For the divorce rate to be 60% every currently married couple would have had to have already been married at least once previously
ReplyDeleteFalse. Let's start with the assumption that around half of married couples marry once and never marry again. That's not precise, but it's close to what most statistics report.
Then, if around half of those who divorce and remarry once also divorce and remarry a second time, and around half of those divorce and remarry for a third time, we would have around 75 percent of marriages ending in divorce, even though half of all marriages do not end in divorce. So a 60% divorce rate is very believable.
2 Corinthians 6:14 kind of says it all.
ReplyDeleteI thought 60% was way off track. Thanks Anon 6:42.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete"For the divorce rate to be 60% every currently married couple would have had to have already been married"
6:42am how do you figure that? Give us your math please.
it is not ‘forbidden’ to date
ReplyDeleteSome ministers have condemned outside the church and interracial dating and marriage and some just treat it as normal. I know one couple that left after scathing remarks ("not really about 'them'"). One minister told me how he would harshly deal with a friend of mine who went to an Asian feast site, expecting that he went there 'wife-hunting'.
In contrast, I remember a church outing where a young (divorced) man was making out (as far as one could in public) with an Asian (non-member) girl. An old woman commented 'God is using him to get her in the church'.
Fairly new to this page, and I don't attend any COG group. However, this is the 2nd consecutive article I've scanned where you make a claim about that church but do not furnish proof. If you're going to claim that someone said Jesus is returning by a given date, you must provide that proof. Your brief video from Pack doesn't do that. You claim UCG says members can't marry outside of their group, you do not provide the proof for that. So far, you're little different from the groups your condemning in this regard. I was hoping for better... but maybe the apple hasn't rolled far enough away from the tree.
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:38 Put the reading glasses on it says COGWA and not UCG.
ReplyDelete