Dagnabbit Jesus! You came to save sinners and for some reason, people focus upon that instead of letting us scare the crap out of them with endless dreary news stories and false prophecies of doom and gloom.
The Role of a Watchman: Many churches today feel their mission is simply to tell the world that God loves them and that Jesus came to save sinners, which is an important but very incomplete message. Many churches also focus on having plenty of social activities to serve their members. However, Jesus told His disciples to be alert and watch for events that will mark the approaching end of the age and the return of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21). The events making news today—natural disasters, rumors of wars, spreading violence, global pandemics, moral corruption, and increasing evidence of the demise of the Israelite nations—are prophesied to appear at the same time we see the rise of a political power in Europe linked to the ancient Roman Empire and the emergence of adversarial powers in Asia and the Arab world. Just as God sent a series of prophets to warn the ancient nations of Israel and Judah that their ungodly ways would bring serious consequences, the Church of God has a similar role to function as a “watchman” to warn modern Israelite nations of the coming consequences of their sinful ways (Isaiah 58:1; Ezekiel 3:17; 33:2–7). Delivering this powerful warning message must also accompany the preaching of the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of God (Matthew 24:14). We need to stay focused on this God-given mission.
Have a profitable Sabbath,Douglas S. Winnail
I basically agree with Doug on this one. Billions are going to die in WW 3, so the warning message is important. Especially considering that most church members are old and have lived their lives. I pity the younger generation.
ReplyDeleteWarn them to what end? Gerald Weston has said it's not to convert, so what is the call to action? Is it to repent but not get baptised? Where did Jesus tell us to warn but not for converting?
DeleteTry reading the book of Jeremiah. God told Jerusalem through Jeremiah to repent of their evil, otherwise punishment through war and enslavement would result. History is merely repeating itself.
DeleteOther than the obvious outrageous sayings of many of the COG ministers today, I have proved to myself that the basic doctrines are correct. Prophecy on the other hand and the interpretation thereof that Europe is going to grow into a superpower that will destroy us, is total trash.
ReplyDeleteHWA, along with many other prophecies, did not understand them. He copied from others and taught them as if Yahweh had taught him personally. His main drive, it appears, was to grow his church as fast as possible as it would mean that his bank account would also benefit if this came about. Truth the plain truth was not as plain as he thought it to be. While I believe that we are descendants of the House of Israel, he misidentified which tribe the USA belongs to, as well as Canada, the UK, etc. He obviously chose the wrong path from copying the work of others, rather than researching it himself.
It is a pity that the daughters of WCG fail to do their homework but follow in his errors, and thus revealing that they don't have the love of the truth (that deep inner drive to discover as best as possible what the real truth is), fearing that they would suffer a credibility gap and lose members. Is it any wonder why so many have taken the independent road as Noah, Abraham, and others did in their journey to understanding the Bible.
Hello Anonymous of April 24, 2021 at 12:10 AM: Think about all the poor COGsters who have died since Herbie first preached his version of the gospel - this warning message was their life. Yet, it was not a message for their personal end time - it did nothing for them.
ReplyDeleteWhat these poor COG souls did not hear about from any of the COGs is the Gospel of Savior Jesus, salvation by grace alone, justification making the sinner right before God, oneness with Victorious Jesus, mercy triumphing over judgement... the list goes on and on.
Essentially, these people did not learn anything about Jesus. The COGs preached nothing about how salvation is by grace. This is the tragic legacy of the COGs!
Below are just a few verses, that if taught instead of all COG sermons, articles, and broadcasts combined - since Herbie's first words to this present garbage from Doug - would have taken the deceased COGsters farther toward salvation, the Kingdom, and closer to Jesus.
These verses preach the same message that current and future generations need to hear. However the biblically-deficient COGs and graceless Doug Winnail will not preach the very verses that teach people who they can be saved.
Acts 15:11
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
"..it did nothing for them."
DeleteNot really. They used their time and resources to warm a less corrupt society to change its ways. It was much easier for the 1960's and 1970's generation to repent than today's generation.
A loving God always warns before he acts.
Hello Anonymous of April 24, 2021 at 12:10 AM: Billions are going to die in, before, or after WW3, in fact, everyone who ever lived will face their personal end time. The COG's warning will take none of them anywhere.
ReplyDeleteIn my comment above, I forgot to mention how the COGs complete history is devoid of teaching about God's love. Those many verses are of more value to all people, regardless of how close each is to their own end, than the total volume of COG teachings on their interpretation of the end time.
If you care about God's love, you could do a search for those verses your self. If you do, weigh each verse, considering how teaching about the love spoken about in that verse is more important than any one, or all the aspects of the COG warning message.
This Winnail weekly whipping is maddening! Winnail continues the indoctrination by minimalizing the true Gospel and maximizing the false COG gospel that includes the warning message that you must pay tithes to the COGs/Winnail - or it's the Lake o' Fire for you.
ReplyDeleteWinnail started the whipping with this devious statement:
"Many churches today feel their mission is simply to tell the world that God loves them and that Jesus came to save sinners, which is an important but very incomplete message."
Winnail minimizes the love of God and saving power of Jesus by saying it's not sufficient. However, God's love and Savoir Jesus is all that the world needs - all people past, present, and future.
The unabridged GOG record is one of avoiding teaching about God’s love, God’s gift, grace, justification, and anything to do with Savior Jesus. These biblical concepts just don’t matter to Winnail and the COG hierarchy – if these same biblical concepts are not important to the members, then they have been become indoctrinated in the false gospel.
Therefore, to help the poor LCG members who have always gotten entirely too much fear and too little love from Winnail, below I have re-written Winnail's first sentence and just threw in a crucial, COG-neglected, passage about God's love. Meditating on these verses will take the LCG closer to the Kingdom, the love of God, and Savior Jesus than everything Winnail has ever written.
__________________________________________________________
Tell the world that God loves them, and that Jesus came to save sinners – preach the same refreshing, livening Gospel to yourself every day.
This Gospel is so glorious, we cannot hear it enough. As the Holy Scripture is the Living Word, we can gain fresh perspective on God’s love for us and his plan for salvation, the more we meditate on the scriptures that address this amazing love. Today, let us contemplate 1 John 4:15-18, where we are blessed to learn:
1 John 4:15 - If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God resides in him and he in God.
1 John 4:16 - we have come to know and to believe the love that God has in us. God is love, and the one who resides in love resides in God, and God resides in him.
1 John 4:17 - By this love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment, because just as Jesus is, so also are we in this world.
1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears punishment has not been perfected in love.
Today, as we celebrate the love God has for us, in providing for our salvation, let us rejoice in 2 Corinthians 13:14; may the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Have a profitable Sabbath by embracing Jesus as the Sabbath Rest,
(Note to Doug: feel free to insert your name and publish this to surprise and bless your people. Furthermore, please consider that a minister of Jesus Christ must preach more about his love and free gift of salvation than any other concept)
Doug writes: "...Many churches today feel their mission is simply to tell the world that God loves them and that Jesus came to save sinners, which is an important but very incomplete message..."
ReplyDeleteWell, the Bible does say: God is love." What is incomplete about that phrase?
The Bible also tells us the following:
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:17
What is incomplete about that sentence?
Well, Doug inspired by "another spirit" preaches "another Jesus" and "another gospel," so he, as a result, believes there is an incompleteness about love and saving this world.
And for that reason, one won't hear Doug Winnail preach the following words:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;..."
Doug is blind to the God who would do such a thing through Christ:
When will Doug repent/change and come out of his blindness, and his continuing to beat down his followers, and finally appreciate that God is love and that He has a lot more in mind than Doug has ever imagined?
Time will tell...
John
Definitely agree with this, BUT preaching the GOOD NEWS of the coming Kingdom must be first, not the other way around like Living likes to do. You never hear the Good News and what comes after the destruction with LCG.
ReplyDeleteWhy must the good news of Christ second coming be first and not the other way around? Because you say so, or Herb said so?
DeleteThat people can gain immortality is what will motivate any person to be a Christian. Not some far off second coming that seems to never come.
WCG used to say that HWA was the watchman. How can a corporation be a watchman? LCG and Winnail are muddled, as usual.
ReplyDeleteFrom "Old Neo's Book of Practical Millerites", p. 813:
ReplyDeleteApollos Hale:
He joined the Millerites and contributed significantly as a lecturer, a writer, and co-designer of the widely disseminated "1843 chart". . . In January, 1845, Hale and Joseph Turner published an interpretation of what had happened on October 22, 1844, in which they articulated what became known as the shut-door doctrine . . . It held that as William Miller had given the final call for salvation, all who did not accept his message were lost. The door of salvation was shut, hence the term "shut door". . . This was a minority view among the Millerites following the Great Disappointment, and Hale eventually abandoned the shut-door view and joined the majority group. ( Wikipedia, various articles)
Hale placed the Great Disappointment in the following context. Maybe this argument should be recruited by some of the Splinterists:
"And, after all, is it not better that there should be ten false alarms, than that there should be one surprise without any warning? And may it not be as likely that the false alarms in times past have been given by the great enemy to lull the present generation to sleep, that they may be taken in the “snare,” as that this is a false alarm to which some future generation may point as a means of quieting themselves when the end, as you suppose, may actually come?" (from "Second Advent Manual" by Apollos Hale)
What goeth around cometh around . . .
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Hey John of April 24, 2021 at 5:54 AM: nice job; I totally agree with all you wrote!
ReplyDeleteIt's sad that a group that wants to be Christian, puts so little energy into preaching about God's love.
It's perplexing that Doug says he is a minister of Jesus, and does not care to write about salvation by Jesus.
Knowing all about prophecy or end-time events cannot save anyone.
Doug is truly a blind guide and dangerous to the people.
Jesus Christ told all to watch !!
ReplyDeleteAgain, He also said that these things will pass, but the end is not yet...on not to worry about these things. He said to Preach THE GOOD NEWS of the Gospel to all the world, then the end shall come.
DeleteQuick Summary for those in a hurry! ...
ReplyDeleteThe LCG is not going to tell you "that God loves you and that Jesus came to save sinners" AND you will not be having plenty of social activities to serve you as members.
Sure, there is a strong sobriety and duty in the Christian message, but LCG does not
sound like a joyful "cant wait to go" kind of place to go to church!
@anon 8:09 AM- So if a person who is not being called, by COG definition of calling, wants to heed the Jeremiah warning, what exactly does he do and what benefit is it for that person? Presumably he is not expected to join the church, convert, receive the holy spirit or go to the place of safety. I admit I'm confused at the purpose of trying to separate the Jeremiah thing from the Jesus thing.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like you haven't read Jeremiah. God repeatedly asked them to stop oppressing the poor and stranger, to not worship false Gods, to not commit adultery, and to obey all of the ten commandments. Do you find this offensive?
DeleteThe "warning" isn't presumably for the benefit of those who are being warned, if they are unable to heed the warning anyway, because they have not been "called." Per COG teaching the warning is to avoid being held accountable for the blood of those who were warned, but did not heed the warning. Ezekiel 33:6
ReplyDeleteThe problem with this scenario is obvious, because this presents a catch 22 for those who are to be "warned" if they are unable to take any action of their own to heed such a warning. Also, if the warnings and commission of Jeremiah are looked at carefully, God didn't just appoint him to warn Israel and Judah, but also to warn other peoples and nations.
"See, I have this day set you over the nations and over the kingdoms, To root out and to pull down, To destroy and to throw down, To build and to plant.” Jeremiah 1:10
This thought can be verified in other passages of Jeremiah. For instance, Jeremiah 25:12-26 predicts the calamity of Babylon, as well as Egypt and other nations. But on the flip side of this warning, we also see that God is merciful to those who listen to the warning.
At any time I might announce that a nation or kingdom will be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed. But if that nation I warned turns from its evil, then I will relent of the disaster I had planned to bring. And if at another time I announce that I will build up and establish a nation or kingdom, and if it does evil in My sight and does not listen to My voice, then I will relent of the good I had intended for it. Jeremiah 18:7-10
The above flies in the face of the idea that God is only interested in "calling" a few, or the idea that God is only primarily interested in "warning Israel." Jesus' instructions were to go into all the world, and teach all the nations,or people, baptizing them, etc. The idea that we are to single out Israel for some sort of special warning message while the rest of the world goes to hell, is a corruption of the instructions Jesus gave. Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; John 3:16-21
The gospel is given by Jesus because He first loved us, and we show our love for Him by demonstrating our love for others. This should be the driving motivation for preaching the gospel to anyone, whether they be Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free. The goal is that all become one in Jesus Christ, who is the beginning and end and should be at the center of the gospel message, not just an afterthought. 1 John 4:19-21; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3; Galatians 3:28; Revelation 22:12-14
Concerned Sister
You are way off base on this one Concerned Sister. That they are "unable to heed the warning" is incorrect. During His ministry Christ condemned several cities for not repenting. Why condemn them if the capacity for change is't there? Not forgetting, remember Jonah and how the city repented? Your point of view also ignores the link between the past and people's performance apon baptism. The "dog ate my homework" baptised members fair poorly in their Christian walk compared to university graduates. It's all there in the parable of the sower. So whether or not people repented in Jeremiah's day will profoundly effect their conversion when they are one day baptised.
DeleteWhat is this powerful message they kept talking about. Who is going to preach it. Doug, Richard, or Gerald? Rod said they were going to “SHAKE” the world. When are they going to give this powerful message. They better hurry because several of the old timers don’t have much longer.
ReplyDeleteConcerned Sister: very well said! There is no longer Jew or Greek should be the end of the focus on Israel - but, that would be the end of one of the COG-rationale for feeling superior to others.
ReplyDeleteI guess Dennis is tire of all the insults.
ReplyDeleteSome historians believe Christianity evolved from Jesus - a Messianic preacher (similar to the COGs today) - with a foc us on the soon coming Kingdom of God - which did not come.
His followers elevated him to be God's son - creating a second god - similar to COGs once again.
Under Paul and successors, Christianity kept evolving until Jesus was considered to have always existed and any other views were heretical.
To solve the God is one and not two - they invented the trinity.
So the COGs are closer to original Christianity and its failed prophecy of the soon coming kingdom of God.
But keep waiting - 2,000 years of scoffers must be wrong.
!!! The Power to Love by Ronald L. Dart, 1997
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GYaE-Qa_QI
(copy and paste)
In July 2020, Winnail wrote this:
ReplyDeleteThe Church as a Watchman: Many churches today feel their sole mission is to tell the world that God loves everybody and that Jesus came to save sinners. While essentially true, there is much more to the biblical message.
In April 2021, Winnail wrote this:
The Role of a Watchman: Many churches today feel their mission is simply to tell the world that God loves them and that Jesus came to save sinners, which is an important but very incomplete message.
When will Winnail write about the part where God loves everyone and Jesus came to save sinners?
What is, where is evidence of, LCG's role in preaching about the love and grace of God and free gift of salvation made possible by Jesus?
Winnail is an Israelite Supremist.
ReplyDeleteToward the end of his tortured piece, Winnail wrote:
“Just as God sent a series of prophets to warn the ancient nations of Israel and Judah that their ungodly ways would bring serious consequences, the Church of God has a similar role to function as a “watchman” to warn modern Israelite nations of the coming consequences of their sinful ways (Isaiah 58:1 ; Ezekiel 3:17 ; 33:2–7 ).”
The New Covenant is not a covenant made with nations; God is out of the business of making covenants with nations and giving warnings to nations.
The New Covenant is offered to individuals of all nations. There is no longer Jew or Greek – nationality, or modern Israelite nations, are no longer important in the New Covenant.
Once the New Covenant was established, there is no biblical evidence that the commission of the Church is to warn modern Israelite nations.
Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
12:18, I think you misunderstood my comment. It is not my idea or position that people are unable to heed a warning or respond to the gospel message. The point I was trying to make is that this is the logical conclusion you would have to come to if you go along with the common COG teaching that God is only "calling" a few people in this age, because if He isn't calling people, sending someone to "warn" them or preach the gospel to them is basically pointless and a futile endeavor, because they would be unable to take any action to respond to that message through no fault of their own if that were true, which it isn't, and the Biblical narrative doesn't support that idea. The only reason left to preach a gospel or warn people then is not out of love or concern for those people, but instead out of a self serving motive,or sense of duty, so the person doing the warning is not held accountable for the harm or death that comes to others.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that often goes along with the faulty reasoning I outlined above is the hyper focus most of the COGs have on preaching some sort of special "warning message" to those peoples they view to be physical descendants of "Israel." This "commission" they view themselves as having has in many cases overshadowed the commission Jesus Christ Himself gave to the apostles to preach the gospel message to everyone, meaning all peoples, whether they be Jew or Gentile.
This unbalanced hyper focus has led to an undercurrent that permeates through many of these groups, whether it is overtly verbalized or not, that preaching the gospel to people considered to be Gentile is less of a priority than reaching those who are deemed to be descended from Israelite stock, and even when those who are considered to be Gentiles covert in spite of this unbalanced view, the idea persists among some that these people are just along for the ride, rather than being seen as an integral and valued part of the body of Jesus Christ. Rather than focusing on the fact that all peoples whether they be Jew or Greek become one in Christ and part of Abraham's seed, the focus remains on the separation of Jew and Gentile, and who they think those people might be. But this attitude cannot be justified Biblically in any way shape or form. When the veil of the temple was torn in two when Jesus Christ was sacrificed, it gave all people who desire to have it, direct access to God, not just the Jews, or physical Israel, and while the focus seems to be on the 144,000 who are sealed and gathered to worship the Lamb mentioned in Revelation 7:4, the innumerable multitude (Gentile converts) mentioned in Revelation 7:9 is all too often left out of the equation.
As a side note to 12:18, I also disagree with you on your secondary point. If behavior prior to baptism determines how converted someone can become then the Apostle Paul must be an anomaly, because he went from murdering Christians to converting Christians, due to his conversion and dedication to Jesus Christ.
Concerned Sister
Concerned Sister
DeleteI disagree with you that Paul was an anomaly. He persecuted Christians because he was deceived. But I don't recall him personally murdering Christians, though he was complicit in one murder. Paul had a good character, so as soon as he was called and corrected by Christ, he began to preach Christianity. A person of poor character would not have been able to endure Paul's severe trials.
The "you shall know them by their fruits" verse means that a persons past dictates who they really are, and how they will most likely behave next.
All this "the person has bitterly repented" mantra spoken often in the ACOG churches is nonsense. Look how many times Saul "repented" in trying to kill David.
A leopard can change its spots. Christ did rebuke cities for not repenting, so it must be possible. But as a matter of observation, it is a rarity.
Brethren, let's not be deceived. The gospel must be preached as a witness to the world but it isn't our business to project or guess or presume who will be called and chosen. You have to bring it but leave the results up to God. You people forget that the Lord said that MANY are called but few are chosen by the end of this first dispensation.
ReplyDeleteSome have suggested then that is pointless if the masses don't receive the gospel now. No, it's not pointless because they will be commanded to obey it in the Day of Judgment when they are resurrected. God is not going to let you go away quietly in your doubts after having heard it in your first life.
As for Winnail's lack of understanding of the gospel, our ministers have been like that for many years because they were not taught in the higher understanding. LCG and Winnail are still stuck back in the '80s when we did not possess a higher regard for who runs the church. While loving the law, LCG does not glorify Christ, while UCG, for instance, glorifies Christ while breaking the law.
So here is the new lesson for those in LCG who are still ashamed of the name in which they were baptized: You cannot enter the kingdom of God apart from the sacrifice and intercession of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hence both themes must be included in any zealous preaching of the gospel.
1:38, I was being facetious in saying that Paul must be an anomaly. I was responding to the comment by 12:18 about the performance of people after baptism hinging on their behavior before baptism, which I don't agree with, necessarily. Also, Acts 8:1-3 as well as Acts 26:10 confirms that Paul was responsible for personally going from house to house and casting followers of Jesus Christ into prison and voting in favor of their death for what he viewed to be their blasphemous beliefs. He personally "approved" of the stoning of Stephen. This is a little more than him just being "complicit" in my view. His trip to Damascus was basically a witch hunt done on his own initiative to find followers of "the Way" and bring them back to Jerusalem to be cast into prison. Acts 9:1 states he was "breathing out murderous threats" or "threats and murder" as the NKJV translates it. See Acts 9:1-9
ReplyDeleteI think a person's "performance" after baptism or repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ depends more on how committed to Him they are willing to become and how much they surrender their own self will and allow Him to dwell within them, thus changing their mindset and character to come more into line with His.
I also believe that sometimes when someone has hit rock bottom so to speak, they can be more willing to change their lives when presented with a better alternative. Jesus Christ basically said as much Himself.
"Two men were debtors to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,and the other fifty. When they were unable to repay him, he forgave both of them. Which one, then, will love him more?”
“I suppose the one who was forgiven more,” Simon replied.
“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.
And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.” Luke 7:41-47
To 1:30's point, I agree that the Bible says that many are called but few are chosen. Being chosen however, is dependent on how one responds when being called. The gospel message is how God calls people, or sends out His invitation to follow Him. See 2Thessalonians 2:14 It is then up to the person whether they choose to listen or not. Just because they choose not to listen now though, doesn't mean they won't have a chance to respond later. God sent multiple prophets to appeal to Israel to repent and turn to him, through multiple generations of their disobedience, and even after they rejected Him, we still see that He is willing to extend mercy to them and graft them back into the tree he removed them from. See Romans 11:11-23
Concerned Sister
Concerned Sister
DeletePaul's "murderous threats" was motivated by misplaced religious zeal. He was not motived by envy or cheap thrills or similar, as is common with murderers.
The prodigal son repented when he hit rock bottom, but the nature of his or the sinful woman's sins were not in the psychopathic realm. He did not exploit or harm innocent people. I've experienced vile ministers, vile church members and vile co workers in my workplace, and they were all addicted to and in love with their evil ways. Hitting rock bottom does not result in repentance with such people.
You wrote "..they surrender their own self will.." Such verbalage permeates Pharisaic and COG culture and is in keeping with the churches mantra of "obey, yield, surrender, submit." It strongly implies being passive and allowing oneself to be dominated by a power crazed ministry. "Obey God rather than man," and swimming upstream in a godless society requires effort and assertiveness rather than passive compliance. Christianity is not a retirement village or nursing home.
8:36, There have been all sorts of folks down through history wielding the hammer and jack boot of "misplaced religious zeal." How do you think the "vile ministers" you speak of justify their behavior towards others? It starts with the idea that they have been given some divinely ordained permission by God to wield some sort of power, authority, or influence over the people they abuse. Paul was a devout Pharisee before he was blinded on the road to Damascus and stopped in his tracks through the intervention of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteThe inquisitors of the Middle Ages tortured and murdered their victims out of the same righteous motivation Paul exhibited towards the early Christians, including Stephen. Their victims were no less dead, maimed, or abused regardless of what drove their tormentors to engage in the heinous acts they were guilty of. The misguided religious zealots of history have proven over and over again to be extremely dangerous, because they deceive themselves into thinking their criminal and cruel actions are justified, condoned, and even blessed by God. It could be argued that there are few people more dangerous than a mad man (or woman) with political power committing violence and atrocities in the name of religion, God, or some other greater "good" as they see it. Jesus warned us of this type of behavior.
"They will put you out of the synagogues. In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God." John 16:22
Vile ministers, church members, coworkers, or any others who engage in abusive and manipulative behavior have a problem and are not exhibiting the love of Jesus Christ toward others, and do not show the fruits of repentance or conversion. "Power crazed ministers" do not carry God's authority. They just think they do, much as the deceived religious zealot thinks he or she does God's bidding in their criminal violence and abuse of others.
Obedience and submission to God means just that. Your loyalty is to Him. Your submission is to Him. That doesn't mean you are required to meekly submit or cow to abusive or deranged bullies with mental issues, whether they be "church authorities" an abusive spouse, parent, etc. Stephen denounced the Jewish authorities of His day, which resulted in his being stoned, and Jesus didn't hesitate to call out the hypocrisy and misdeeds of the religious leaders He dealt with. He was also however kind, merciful, and gentle in his treatment of the poor, sick, and oppressed. Luke 4:18; Matthew 4:23; Matthew 8:16-17; Matthew 20:34; Mark 6:24
I hope this clarifies any comments that might have been troublesome.
Concerned Sister
Concerned Sister
DeleteThere are many people who were communists during their youth, but who eventually perceived the evil motives beneath its righteous veneer, leading them to renounced the ideology. Paul was trained as a Pharisee, and likewise believed in the rightness of his religion. He was not motivated by secret evil motivations, otherwise he would have been mentally crippled by a negative self image and other penalties that are inherent in doing evil. Paul did not use his Pharisaic religion as a cloak for evil as other religious leaders throughout human history that you mention. When God called Paul, he did not have a evil twisted mind. Why do you find this so hard to accept?
God grants repentance.
ReplyDeleteI'm not an expert on GOG theology but, I think that even the COGs acknowledge repentance starts with God acting in the convert's life.
Regardless of what the official COG repentance doctrine may be, the common understanding and practice on repentance is strongly influenced by the GOG beliefs on salvation by human works and a complete lack of interest in the biblical concepts of grace, justification, glorification, and sanctification.
The Church does not have a New Covenant commission to preach the Ezekiel, or Jerimiah Warning or any call to seek out "Israelite" nations.
The Great Commission is to preach, to all people of all nations, that salvation and entry to the Kingdom of God is available only through Jesus.
The COGs preach another gospel of works, with scant mention of Jesus, except to imply he isn't sufficient to save, and a warning rendered useless because it is devoid of grace.
Proof of the folly of the LCG can be seen in their zeal for warnings from Ezekiel and Jeremiah contrasted with so little interest in grace or justification.
ReplyDeleteBelow is the message of grace that the world needs to hear - but the COGs never have and never will preach:
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
Acts 15:10-12
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
The 2021 spring winds of doctrine trend is towards proclaiming 'God's Love' but the Love that is proclaimed here is a Love that allows all kinds of sins to be enforced on others. A licence to sin. The same Love Joseph Tkach & jnr brought into WCG.
ReplyDeleteConcerned Sister is full of blather and should be ignored.
If a warning message is a part of the Gospel that Christ preached, why did none of His apostles seem to preach it during their times?
ReplyDeleteJohn the Baptist warned the Pharisees that the axe is laid at the tree trunk, and Paul taught the the end is during his generation, so I wouldn't say that there was no warning message.
DeleteBillions are about to die, the Snglo-Saxons are about to lose most of their population, yet posters here are complaining of a warning message. I don't think that the future victims will agree with this.
It is not the "warning message" per se that I have an issue with, 10:02. It is the idea of warning people just so the COGs can say they did, while other doctrines they teach would prevent the possibility of people being able to respond to such a warning, because God isn't calling them, and they can only respond to the warning, or gospel if God calls them.
ReplyDeleteThis paints God as some sort of ogre who sends out warnings to people who through no fault of their own are unable to heed the warning, and then punishes them for not heeding a warning they can't respond to anyway, because He didn't turn the screw in their heads, which would allow them to understand the warning he sent. This idea contradicts multiple scriptures and also contradicts the idea of free moral agency. If a nation or people are unable to understand the warning you are sending, what then is the purpose of such a warning? This scenario also makes God out to be a respecter of persons, turning screws in some people's heads, while not turning the screws in others, creating an opportunity to heed the warning for some, but consigning others to punishment.
I also have an issue with the almost exclusive emphasis in many COG groups on "warning Israel" which mainly translates to mean the U.S. and Britain, while ignoring or at least minimizing any efforts to reach the rest of humanity, with the excuse that God will deal with them later. This approach can't be supported Biblically. God sent servants to both Israelite and Gentile peoples and the gospel is to be preached to everyone. Separating the "warning" message, from the "gospel" message is also problematic. Is the warning then, not also part of the gospel? If you are going to tell people about the Kingdom of God, that would also include information in the Bible of end time events, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Kingship of Jesus Christ, God's love, His grace, His law, repentance, baptism, etc. There is one gospel, that includes all of these things, and that gospel is to be shared with all people, regardless of ancestry. If end time prophecy suggests that no one will be exempt from the effects of famine, disease, war, plagues, signs, wonders, etc, why would you warn some and not others?
As far as Paul is concerned, it is not my purpose to criticize him. He repented of his sins, and went on to serve Jesus Christ faithfully, which eventually led to his own martyrdom, and he is responsible for writing almost thirty percent of the New Testament scriptures. Previous to his conversion however, his actions towards the early followers of Jesus Christ were evil. What ever his motivation for such behavior might have been doesn't erase that, and he himself acknowledged that he persecuted those people to death. Acts 22:4
I don't think we can psychoanalyze or guess the inner motives or workings of every human in history who has committed similar sins against other innocents. What we can observe is that humans are capable of convincing themselves that their own motives are pure, and their mistreatment of others is justified, and serves a greater good, even if it doesn't. Whether someone is motivated to commit evil and sin against others because of some mental derangement, secret evil thought, self righteous fervor, or religious zealotry, the net result is still sin, and harm to others. It also isn't up to me to decide who can or cannot repent. There are multiple examples in the gospels of Jesus casting out demons and healing people's minds. He did this as well as healing physical infirmities. Only God knows all the factors that play into someone else's behavior. He is their judge.
Concerned Sister
Concerned Sister
DeleteI am not aware that the ACOGs have ever taught that the uncalled are incapable of repenting. Your accusation seems like a straw man argument. On the contrary, the example of Nineveh is frequently cited by the COGs as an example of a nation repenting. The principle of "to whom much is given, much is expected" has always been taught by the COGs. Hence God expects a higher standard from those who are called, and a higher standard from the "birthright" nations of America and Britain, considering their greater exposure to God's word and
His personal historic dealings with them. Which is why the Anglo-Saxons will be punished more severely during the tribulation, and their warning is more pronounced. It's simple cause and effect.
Agree 12:54 AM.
Delete12:54, If what you say is true, then what exactly is the difference according to COG teaching between those who are "called" and those who are not called, and how is someone who hasn't been "called" according to the COG definition of calling able to understand the gospel message enough to see their need for repentance? When Jesus proclaimed the gospel in Galilee, He told the people to "repent and believe the gospel." Mark 1:14-15 The two concepts work in tandem, and it therefore follows that you cannot have true repentance without some level of belief, which is not possible without understanding the message being presented, implying that someone has to have been "called." So what exactly constitutes being called, and how do you know if you have or haven't been called? If understanding, belief, and repentance are all possible without being called, then what is the purpose of being called?
ReplyDeleteAlso,from my understanding of the concept of British Israelism according to the COGs teaching, the blessings of the "birthright" Anglo-Saxon nations were not given because of the obedience of those peoples to Him, or any actions on their part, but instead were given in order to fulfill promises of blessings to certain of Abraham's descendants, which it is taught were "unconditional." If this is true, then why would God penalize these peoples for disobedience to Him, when the condition of obedience was never the reason the blessings were given in the first place?
I agree that in general, English speaking countries have had easier access to the scriptures than perhaps some of the other nations, since the late 1500s or early 1600s. Before that many Bibles were burned and people who circulated certain translations were arrested because the Church of England didn't like those translations. For instance Tyndale was arrested, strangled, and burned at the stake, because Church authorities didn't like his translation of certain words, which undermined the teachings of the Anglican Church. The Geneva translation was also unpopular with the religious authorities, partly because the notes in the margins of that translation were more Calvinist or Puritan in nature, but also because some of those notes called into question the authority of bishops and other ecclesiastical authorities, and by extension the authority of the king. This is why the monarchy began the process of commissioning their own versions of the scriptures into English, and largely why the King James version of the Bible was commissioned.
However, others have also had access to the scriptures to one extent or another as translations into other languages appeared on the scene. For instance, Germanic translations of scripture date to as early as the 4th century A.D. and the complete Lutheran German version of the scriptures was completed in 1534. Spanish and French translations also became available in the 1500s. Work began on Slavic language translations during the same general period, though a Russian translation wasn't completed till the 1800s. Chinese translations of some scripture might have begun as early as the seventh century, but printed translations didn't show up until the 1800s. Some of this access has had more to do with governmental attitudes towards religious freedom, than availability of an appropriate translation, much as it was earlier in the history of our own peoples.
Possession of scripture alone though, doesn't automatically constitute belief or understanding, since "true understanding" as we have been taught only comes to those who are "called" and had their minds opened to the truth, which again prompts the question, why would God then punish the Anglo-Saxon peoples to a greater degree than other nations simply because they have access to the scriptures, if possession of those scriptures doesn't automatically translate into the understanding necessary for repentance?
Concerned Sister
Concerned Sister
DeletePeople without the holy spirit are quite capable of living by the ten commanded as shown below:
Lev 25:18 "So you shall observe my statutes and keep my commandments and perform them; and you will dwell in the land safety."
Christ stated that prostitutes and tax collector's were entering the kingdom before the holy spirit was granted to such people. People without the holy spirit have a history of great accomplishment in the sporting, musical and technical spheres. So people can live by the ten commandments and build significant character without the holy spirit. Which is also the significance of water baptism, minus the holy spirit being granted. People can still make the commitment to do things God's way and build character. The fact that there is a spread of character levels when members get baptized is another proof of this.
1:27, I agree that there are different "character levels" among people, which can be observed both in those who have and have not been baptized. The difference here however, is that those who have been baptized have presumably agreed to accept Jesus Christ as their King and Savior. This makes them more culpable in their actions, because they have signified by the outward sign of baptism that they are willing to become circumcised of heart,similarly to the way Israelite males and male Gentile proselytes were required to be physically circumcised as a sign of their willingness to obey the laws of Israel. While it is true that only God can read someone's heart, we cannot blame Him for our own or someone else's lack of growth or character after baptism. The immersion is simply the outward sign of what is supposed to be an inward covenant with God, and it is up to us to allow the Holy Spirit made available to us, to work within us.
ReplyDeleteI also agree that people without the holy spirit are capable of understanding, at least to some degree, basic concepts of right and wrong, and the laws of most civilized societies reflect this. Most civilized societies for example, have basic laws in place against murder, theft, etc. which mirror at least some of the precepts we find within the ten commandments. But,those laws and even the punishments that go with breaking them if someone is caught, don't always stop people from committing murder, stealing, etc. because the law by itself is not enough to regulate those people's actions, just as repeated commands and imploring from God didn't stop Israel from breaking the commandments and laws He gave them.
The veil over Israel's understanding was because they turned away from God. 2Corinthians 3:14-18 verifies this. It had nothing to do with not being "called," as other scriptures demonstrate. Hosea 11:2 specifically says, "but the more I called Israel, the farther they departed from Me. They sacrificed to the Baals and burned incense to the carved images."(BSB) It is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ, or "turning to God" and our willingness to follow Him, that the veil is lifted and the blind see. We are told to draw near to God, and He will draw near to us. James 4:8; Zechariah 1:3; Psalm 73:27-28 The gospel is the gospel of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom, because it is only through Him that the blind are healed and the veil is lifted, and this applies to both Jew and Gentile alike. Acts 4:11-12; Matthew 1:21; Acts 10:34-46 It is by that gospel that people are called. 2Thessalonians 2:14
Gifts of athleticism, music, or technical abilities, don't necessarily reflect or demonstrate character though. For example, someone gifted as an athlete isn't necessarily above cheating in a race by the use of steroids or other means, if their drive to win at any cost overcomes the moral concept of a fair competition.
Concerned Sister
Concerned Sister
ReplyDeleteGifted athletes, musicians, technical personal is a uncommon category. I've met many gifted people who were vile. Some people with doctorates were in charge of the Nazi concentration camps. So a gifted person does not equal a good character as you point out. And not forgetting a gifted Solomon who was a moral failure. But for ordinary people, enormous effort is required to gain mastery in ones profession. For instance, it takes 20,000 hours of practice to reach the symphony orchestra quality level. One doesn't hear too often about Olympic athletes ending up in the gutter.
My point is that working hard builds character for people with or without the holy spirit. People who have worked very hard as students for example, have built the foundation for qualifying for the kingdom. Those who left school at the earliest age, struggle to build this foundation after baptism, and in my experience, usually fail to do so. Sad, but that's the way it is.