There is one thing about the ministry in the Church of God movement and that it has some absolutely batshit crazy ministers who are theologically ignorant about the book they claim to follow. The problem is that so many of them do not follow that book and instead bow down at the altar of Herbert Armstrong and worship everything he said and did. To them, HWA was the most perfect thing to walk this earth since Jesus, that inconvenient dude they know nothing about.
Andrew Locher, April 9 Bible Study, spoke on the “Mark of the Best” and came up with the answer by quoting HWA who said the mark is “Sunday” and “those with the mark of the beast will suffer God’s wrath, but those without the mark will be tortured and killed by man. Do you want to die at the hands of man or by God?” (Quite an option.) “We can be protected in a Place of Safety during the Tribulation. It requires faith and obedience to God’s Law.”
It absolutely does NOT require faith and obedience to the law. COG ministers continue to lie to this day that this kind of obedience is required. Jesus be damnd, the law rules the day. After all, Jesus is still in that high school gym or Masonic lodge where he was left on Passover night till they have to mention his name again as they re-crucify him.
“Satan was cast down at the death of HWA. It was the transition into the Laodicean era. The 7th head, the Holy Roman Empire is here.” (There is no biblical basis at all for this.)
“We are the only ones that keep the Sabbath.” (Those tutored under HWA have heard this a thousand times.)
Another lie of the ministry. Satan was not cast down to earth at the death of HWA. Herbert was not some bulwark that kept Satan at bay. The stupidity in this belief is astounding.
The following notes were gathered from a recent PCG conference:
GF admitted he doesn’t emphasize certain verses or words on his programs because he “will lose listeners.”
Flurry doesn't mention certain scriptures because they condemn him. If he spoke about Jesus, grace, justification, and mercy, he would have no ministry to con people with.
“God’s law is a law of love.” (Does the Bible say that? If so, I can’t find it. Your Q&A say the Law was given to ancient Israel, not to the Church.)
Scripture says the law is death. "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
“God wants us to get it into our minds about the Father and the family.” (No, God wants us to understand about His Son who gave His life for us so we might have everlasting life.)
Another deceptive lie. The emphasis in PCG and many COG's is the erroneous belief that COG members will become "mini gods" and thus equal with Jesus.
“The Laodiceans would forget everything in the Tribulation if it wasn’t for us. They will know they are being punished for their sins “.(I wonder if GF will know he is being punished for his sins when he finds himself in the Tribulation?)
“If we don’t have the Law we are going to be deceived by the Devil.” (No, if we hold to the Law, we will not understand the grace of God.)
More idiotic theological bullshit that places the law about Jesus and anything he said, did, and accomplished with his death. The majority of Christianity understand what that means except for the Church of God fake theologians.
“There is the possibility that we will be martyred. So what if you have to give up your life?” (Yeah, so what? No big deal.)
The chances of COG members dying at the hands of COG leaders and their blasphemous teachings are far greater than martyrdom for being Christians. The PCG and many COG's are the ministries of death.
“There is no way we can ever get in this Paradise without God teaching and correcting us.” (We will be in Paradise if we have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus; it has nothing to do with correction; He took our punishment on Calvary.)
We will rule over all the universe and all the planets will blossom like a rose. (I thought it was the desert that would blossom like a rose.)
“God feeds us so much new revelation.” (No, GF thinks God is feeding him new revelation.)
“The Laodiceans have no new revelation. God cuts them off because Elijah [HWA] prayed that He would.” –name of country withheld
Great post. What little minded pricks and truely narcissistic and woefully ignorant so and so’s these self appointed ‘ministers’ are.
ReplyDeleteAbraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness, and that before the law.
We are saved by grace and that through faith.
Have these b**tards read the bible?
For someone who appears to be so smart (Andy Locher), he is so stupid like several others for staying with GRF all these years. He has always held high-level positions in PCG. As time has gone on, he has moved up the PCG corporate (or should I say corrupt) ladder. I suppose the pride and vanity that the PCG ministry has, keeps them from leaving.
ReplyDeleteSmart? Really? He’s always came across to me as an unintelligent weasel.
DeleteHey, Locher, stick to finance. That's all youre there for, anyway - money. Because if you truly read your Bible and believe it, youd leave Flurry and the PCG. But since youre just like any other COG cult minister, your god is HWA/Flurry and MONEY. None of you have integrity. Can somebody let Locher know.
ReplyDelete"It absolutely does NOT require faith and obedience to the law."
ReplyDeleteoh but it absolutely DOES require faith and obedience to the law...something one desires and is able to do because of the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in them.
sure, no one is perfect, and Jesus Christ is there to cover our shortcomings, but He knows who has been called and is trying to live according to God's instructions with the Holy Spirit in them...and therein lies the rub....the definition of a Saint is one in whom dwells the Holy Spirit. (not one who walks down the aisle and gets dunked in the water)
no one with God's Spirit will teach against the law.
even at the base human intellectual level it makes no sense to teach against God's law, but many do using emotional tactics to deceive many, and people filled with emotion follow along, believing the lie.
that being said, there is a problem within the COG movement of deifying HWA, and it appears that a good many worship him instead of God....but God knows all of this and He has a plan to deal with it.
“Satan was cast down at the death of HWA. It was the transition into the Laodicean era."
ReplyDeleteThis is an example of the self-importance that, in my experience, prevails in Splinterdom. Splinterists believe that the great currents of the Bible are all about them. The upside of this way of thinking is that it makes the Bible seem to be profoundly relevant. The downside is that it is a dubious recruitment of scripture that bears near certainty of being wrong. My Bible does not mention Millerism in general or HWA in particular. And Armstrongism is just an odd footnote in the history of Millerism in North America. So the first sentence in the cited statement above seems to me to be wholly unfounded. I am left wondering what exegesis we have all missed that supports this idea. And if there is no convincing exegesis, why should it be preached. One can ascend to the pulpit and preach anything theoretically - we have protected free speech in America. But like Paul delicately says: "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful."
As for the second sentence in the cited statement above, the supporting principle behind the statement is a minority viewpoint. The book of Revelation contains clear language about its purpose and audience:
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place . . . John to the seven churches that are in Asia . . . I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet . . . saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
It takes a lot of chutzpah to take a text so clearly self-defined as to purpose and audience and, in contravention to the text, propose a novel meaning and application. I know for Splinterists the novel idea that this refers to church eras is a ship that has already sailed. But it remains, nevertheless, a solid and relevant criticism. The idea seems to have been popularized by Scofield who saw everything in the form of eras in the development of his dispensational premillennialism. Scofield certainly did not see this historicist view as applicable to Millerism and its putative history in Dugger and Dodd. The historicist view may have some validity but not unreservedly so. Does it then rise to the level that makes it preachable?
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
The PCG is flawed, but that doesn't automatically invalidate all that they preach. I believe that they are correct about the coming tribulation, and that Christians need to brace themselves for the coming persecution, including dying for their faith. It's all there in the bible.
ReplyDeleteYou could then say:
DeleteThe Catholic Church is flawed but that doesn’t invalidate everything the say
The JW’s are flawed but that doesn’t invalidate everything they say
The Baptist’s are flawed but that doesn’t invalidate everything they say
The Mormons are flawed but that doesn’t invalidate everything they say
Anonymous (7:01)
ReplyDeleteI think you missed the thrust of NO2HWA's response. Blessings do not require "faith and obedience" to the law, they require only faith. Obedience is a natural outcome but is not an up front requirement. That is why Paul says "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift." How is the gift free if you have to work for it. I find that Armstrongists have an extraordinary difficulty understanding this idea. The concept of "faith and obedience" is the substrate on which Jesus Plus Cults are built. It's along story that has been exhaustively analyzed.
Another issue here is how "the law" is defined. Is it the NT law as defined by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount? Is it the OT law as defined by Moses? Or is it an odd amalgam of selected OT and NT laws like Herman Hoeh came up with?
When you approach these seemingly simple propositions, you are really approaching the Great Rift between Armstrongism and Christianity.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Dont believe everything you hear in the "Locher Room" ! :-)
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteCHURCH HISTORY
Gerald Flurry: Gospel Perverter
Christ's chosen apostle Herbert W. Armstrong had taught that the “true purpose” of the church, and the “very purpose” of the church, was to carry out the “Great Commission” to preach the gospel (meaning Good News) of the (“soon coming”) kingdom of God. The Worldwide Church of God, as the “Philadelphia era” of the true church, had been given an “open door” to preach the true gospel to the whole world for a witness to all nations before the end of the age would come, after the gospel had been suppressed for about 1900 years.
Satan's false prophet Gerald R. Flurry came up with his anti-social “new commission” for a new church era that was supposedly about somehow “warning the Laodiceans” by refusing to talk to former Worldwide Church of God members and by acting like jerks towards them. It was bad news. It was no gospel, or Good News, at all. This “new commission” of Gerald Flurry's immediately replaced and suppressed the true gospel once again. Amazingly, Gerald Flurry completely, totally changed the entire commission of the whole church while falsely claiming to be faithfully holding on to everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught.
PCG members were basically taught that they could be better than everyone else simply by remaining ignorant, closing their eyes, covering their ears, and raging away like demoniacs about all the “evil Laodiceans,” meaning the former Worldwide Church of God people who did not go along with Satan's false prophet Gerald Flurry.
Gerald Flurry: Identity Thief
When former Worldwide Church of God ministers who had been educated at Ambassador College were not interested in going along with a drunken runt with a plagiarized “little book,” Gerald Flurry set up whatever unqualified but power-hungry bums happened to be around as PCG “ministers” to teach and enforce his perverse new teachings that he was “flooding” his PCG cult with. When Gerald Flurry pulled off his identity theft of the ages by claiming that he, rather than Jesus, was what he called “That Prophet” of Deuteronomy 18:18-19 that everyone was required to listen to, these fake PCG “ministers” went along with it and taught it and enforced it in order to continue to get a little paycheck and some power. From That False Prophet and all of his doctrinal perversions, to the fake ministers who kick people out for shunning sexual immorality, to the arrogant and malicious elders who try to mach up other people's children (but not their own children) with old predators two or three times their age, to the filthy old deaconesses who just want to get their hands all over other people's young boys, every last person in the PCG “ministry” is a satanic fraud.
Continued below...
"It's all there in the bible."
ReplyDeleteWhat is in the Bible is a description of a time of great affliction associated with the events of 70 AD. What is not in the Bible is a description of how type-antitype means that there will be a second, end-time great tribulation in the future. In fact, Christ demolished the idea of a second later fulfillment when he said:
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matthew 24:21)
Note that this is a one time event and not a type-antitype pairing. That is what the statement "nor ever shall be" means. The only way prophecy weenies can squeeze another tribulation out of the scripture is to deny that what happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD was a tribulation at all. This denial of the Biblical record would then permit the accommodation of a one-time event at the end of the age. No historian or Bible scholar worth his salt would stand behind this idea let alone Jesus who said the 70 AD events would transpire in one generation.
I looked into futurism (the idea that parts of certain Biblical prophecies have yet to be fulfilled) a little and discovered that it has not been popular until recent centuries. I found the following statement:
"Two Catholic Jesuit writers, Manuel Lacunza (1731-1801) and Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), proposed the futurist view. . . Up until the 19th Century, the futurist view was generally shunned by non-Catholics, being seen as a self-defense of the papacy against the claims of the historicist reformers." (Wikipedia, article on Futurism)
I have found nothing so far that explains how futurism was picked up by William Miller. But when he set out to construct the prophetic view of the world, he assumed futurism. Futurism seems to have grown in popularity in the 19th and 20th centuries.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
ReplyDelete...continued from above.
Gerald Flurry: Family Wrecker
As the one who was prophesied to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, Herbert W. Armstrong also talked in his later years about turning the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers.
As Satan's anti-Elijah trying to undo everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had tried to do, Gerald Flurry also came up with his anti-family “no contact” policy. Gerald Flurry said that God commands us to avoid certain ones. Only instead of avoiding all the old, lying, slandering, sex perverts in the PCG that the Bible does say to avoid, Gerald Flurry twisted it to say that PCG members are supposed to cut off all contact with their own mates, parents, children, relatives, etc. who know the old Worldwide Church of God teachings and did not go along with Satan's false prophet Gerald Flurry. At the same time, younger PCG members were required to go along with the numerous sneaky and deceitful old sex maniacs, sex perverts, and predators in the PCG who pretended and claimed to want to “help” them.
PCG members were basically taught that they could be righteous and get saved by divorcing their mates, abandoning their families and relatives, and by behaving worse than unbelievers. Many of the freaks and weirdos in the PCG jumped at the opportunity.
NEO
ReplyDeleteIf the tribulation is 70 AD, how do you explain Christs "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved?"
The arrogance and clear lack of being a genuine Christian is made manifold when godless and self serving proclaim the Great Tribulation to have already happened NEO.
ReplyDeletePraise be that you are not a high ranking Pastor within "Splinterdom" because otherwise the Church would be doomed, your sermons strange and unfathomable, everything would be a trial and a problem. The vision dead and truth denied. All the membership would be set up against each other to hate and to war.
Oh wait ....
Anonymous (7:56)
ReplyDeleteI will assume that what you are referring to is the phrase "no flesh would be saved". This idea from the Armstrongist legendarium has been used by Armstrongists to situate the tribulation at the end of days, whenever that might be. The reasoning is that only in our time do the necessary weapons of mass destruction exist to accomplish the complete extermination of every living thing.
There are problems with this interpretation. If we follow the Armstrongist line of reasoning, we have this effect: Jesus is speaking in Matthew 24 about local events connected with Jerusalem. Then suddenly in breaks out out of context in Matthew 22 and makes a statement that relates to the entire planet at a future time when technology renders mass destruction possible. Clearly, this will be meaningless to the listeners at that time because they know of no way that life can be exterminated - so they are puzzled and Jesus sounds like he doesn't know what he is talking about. And none of the listeners say "what did you mean by that?" Then Jesus immediately goes back to local Jerusalem related events and continues.
That is a flawed exegesis. It is concocted, to the point of being painful, to lift this event or sequence of events out of context and it does not work. But when read in context, Jesus is making the point that if this train of events were not interdicted every Jew in the Jerusalem environs would be killed. Obviously the people doing the killing, the Romans, would still be alive. But the Bible is about the Jews not the Romans. That is the scope.
Another problem is the dislocation of all the events in Matthew 24. It means that Christ was not talking about 70 AD at all. And all of these events are moved into the the future. This is not a type-antitype pairing where there is an early fulfillment and then a latter fulfillment. Christ already stated the tribulation was a one time event. And we know that the development and proliferation of WMDs is a one time event. This makes 70 AD an irrelevant event that Christ was not even talking about in Matthew 24. Yet he said it would all happen in one generation and it is timed to 70 AD by reference to the Destruction of the Temple.
If one accepts the odd Armstrongist exegesis about WMDs, it leads to this chronological comedy of errors. So, man up. The Tribulation already happened. Get over it. But do not be discouraged there are still many other thrilling eschatological disasters worthy of Millerite apocalyptic fervor that can be enjoyed from the comfort of the mythical end-time place of safety.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
correction:
ReplyDeleteI wrote: Then suddenly in breaks out out of context in Matthew 22 . . .
It should be: Then suddenly he breaks out of context in verse 22 . . .
HWA, Flurry, Pack & Thiel have all been proven as false prophets & apostles. No wonder so many who have been in the tradition of the Worldwide church and it's offspring have lost their belief and turned to atheism. They were violated by false shepherds who laid grievous burdens on them that they themselves would not do. They forbade members to get medical help but when they got sick they went straight to the doctor, showing that they would change doctrine for their own convenience. They have no remorse for the damaged lives they have wrecked. No wonder the ACOGs are trending down, trying to recycle old sermons and articles that may have gotten traction 40-50 years ago. I remember seeing an article by a former minister of WWCG warning about Japan's military(he is in United presently) I guess he thinks Tojo or Yamamoto are coming back also.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete1:55PM,
As the one who was prophesied to come in the spirit and power of Elijah, Herbert W. Armstrong also talked in his later years about turning the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers.
Since when was Armstrong prophesied in the Bible? I see no such prophecy. If turning the hearts of the father to the children, I guess he did that in deed towards his daughter. If his kids hearts were turned to him, why didn't all of them stay in his church? I think he missed the mark there.
I never said that Locher was smart, he just "appears" to be. He had a very high-paying job in law enforcement before he was completely involved with PCG. He wasn't an officer. It was before my time in PCG. So, I only knew as an employee of PCG.
ReplyDelete