A comment was made on a previous thread about how the church has always claimed that no one could join the church unless God had called them. The problem then arose, did a minister ever have the right to determine who was in and who was left out? Potential members had to jump through all kinds of hoops in order to impress ministers that they were "called." From reading Mystery of the Ages, countless booklets, and a grand litany of does and don'ts, potential members needed to jump through a myriad of man-made and totally useless things to do.
The COG loved to mock the Mason's for all steps they needed to climb in order to reach the top, while the church required the same amount of nonsense for members to become enlightened and part of God's privileged "called-out" ones. Then at that point, the church began to instill the fear into members that they could never leave the church and if they did they would lose their salvation. What utter nonsense!
LCG Expositor has left a new comment on "Doug Winnail: God Is Watching You!":
LCG's practice of secret meetings stems from the old practice of WCG, where they tried to position themselves as an elite, sacred group. "We are the only ones who know the truth. The only ones God is working with on this entire planet. You can't just make yourself a member; God has to put you in. And we determine whether He is doing that. And once you are in this secret, elite group, it is so special you'll never want to leave, even if there is some abusive leadership. There's nowhere else to go. If you leave us, you're turning your back on God and on His selected leaders, and headed for the lake of fire.
As far as I know, Flurry and LCG still engage in this detestable behavior, although LCG has toned it down.
This practice started with the idea that "church" comes from "ecclesia" and means called-out ones. And we in the ministry get to determine whether you are called out or not. The problem is that while the word ecclesia is derived from "call" and "out-of", that is NOT what it means. Look it up in any Bible dictionary. Ecclesia means "assembly". Often an assembly of Christians, but not always. And nowhere in the Bible do we see any inkling of this arrogant exclusivity.
No NEVER because no minister died on the cross. Only Jesus Christ did.
ReplyDeleteWas this post written by a picky minister? The modern day reality is that sadly congregations have become small and the small congregation leaders are only comfortable with a 'social circle congregation' that reflects their personal choice of members.
The more WCG splintered the more local congregations now reflect the local minister personal choices in members. Cross the minister and death becomes you. The problem is sadly from within the ministry. A more broad minded personality minister will have a healthier congregation. A more small minded petty minister will have a congregation that reflects his personal choice. As always vanity and personality can thrive or destroy a Christian congregation. It shouldn't be influenced by the ministry but the sad landscape of the Church at this time reflects that.
John 6:44 "No man can come to Me unless the Father draws him."
ReplyDeleteThat sounds exclusive to me. In Acts, some, but not all, were given the holy spirit. That sounds like exclusivity to me.
Christ said that tax collectors and prostitutes were entering the kingdom before the holy spirit was given out, so people can start living by the ten commandments prior to baptism. But they are not the bride of Christ.
The bride of Christ are not Jehovah's Witnesses or Catholic nuns. Not everyone is the bride of Christ.
That's not the question 12:27. You write all uppity answering a unasked question.
DeleteDoes a COG Minister have the right to determine who will be a church member? Is the question. Why don't you answer that.
2.47 PM
Delete"And nowhere in the bible do we see any inkling of this arrogant exclusivity."
I responded to this part of the article.
Since you have asked, a minister is God's servant and needs to obey Gods will in baptizing those God has called. However ACOG ministers are pathological liars. Being power hungry, they try to convince members that they have the right to determine who will or will not be baptized. They play a dangerous game of brinkmanship in this regard by making extortionistic demands on potential members, threatening to not baptized them otherwise. But they are bluffing. They know God will severely punish them if they refuse to baptized those He has called.
Brinkmanship is a dangerous game. Things can and have exploded in people's faces.
When I went to Ambassador the church was called the Radio Church of God. A few years later it became the Worldwide Church of God. So, when one mentions “the old WCG” that would be the time frame.
ReplyDeleteThe practice you mention did not come from the idea of being called out of ek-, to be snobs. The practice of not inviting non-believers was based on protecting the sheep. Protecting them from those who deliberately came to the college and the church to cause problems. And, also, not to offend the unbeliever by teaching doctrines to them they were not ready for. And more.
Later ministers misused this practice, and, ergo the atheists and critics jump on the misuse and not the real reason.
As to no verses teaching “exclusiveness”, that is not true. Some of the verses the RCG believed they practiced as best they could. I Cor. 10:20, II Cor. 6;14, Eph. 5:11, Acts 16:4. There’s more if any care to look.
Because later ministers and members, especially those who deliberately joined to get into positions where they could creat destruction of the college and church, does not prove the original intent was wrong.
People never remember the good just the made up bad.
By the way, don’t respond by claiming I am some cog person. Nope, my wife and I left in 1978, and are not members of any church, assembly or congregation today. However, I do believe in facts, fair play, and truth. The wcg people who made their mistakes, that’s their problem, not mine. I didn’t believe the Bible because of HWA, etc. He did not make or break my faith, as too many seem to have done. Like he said, and Paul, “follow me AS I follow the MESSIAH “. Well I still follow Paul, but I don’t blame HWA for my problems like too many still do today.
Life is good and temporary, however eternal life is better, and keeps hanging around.
All the best, Bob
12.53 PM
DeleteBob, you seem to be white washing Herbs church. "Just the made up bad." Err, no. There was and is plenty of real non-made-up bad. Blogs like this wouldn't exist otherwise. Herb's "follow me as I follow the Messiah" is misleading since it makes him the middleman between members and God. The holy of holies splitting in two on Christs death means that there is no middle man. Every Christian has direct access to God the Father. Minister want members to come to them with their problems when they should be going directly to God. Ministers lust what rightly belongs to God.
Matthew 16:18 talks about only ONE CHURCH. Jesus said: "I will build MY CHURCH", he didn't say: "I will build MY CHURCHES"
ReplyDeleteJohn 6:44 "No man can come to Me unless the Father draws him."
ReplyDeleteBut, a little later, in John 12:32 He says, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself." So, it appears to me that during his ministry, Jesus was going to the Israelites, offering them the kingdom of God. They rejected it, killed him and when he was lifted up, then the message went out and he began to draw all men to himself. Typical Armstrong interpretation error, take a passage out of context and then ignore a passage that might not support his views.
The assembly and congregation of God consists of those whose names are registered or enrolled in heaven. Hebrews 12:23 This list is not synonymous with any membership list of any human church organization on earth. Therefore no human being, minister or not, has the right or the power to decide who is on that list, because God has not entrusted them with that information or task. That responsibility lies solely within the hands of God, for which we should all be thankful.
ReplyDeleteIt would then follow that any church organization claiming their group to be the "one true church" to the exclusion of anyone else not in their particular organization not only lies, but has assumed a position of judgement that only God is qualified to make. God sees the heart, and God will judge each according to their deeds. 1Samuel 16:7; 2Corinthians 5:10; 1Peter 1:17; Revelation 20:12 God is merciful. God is gracious. God is just. Hebrews 2:17-18; Hebrews 4:13-16; Isaiah 30:18 You can't have it both ways. You can't claim the body of Christ to be a spiritual entity consisting of those He chooses and whose names He enrolls in heaven, and then spend all your time trying to define and contain that within the walls of your own human church organization.
Concerned Sister
Anonymous 4.35 PM,
ReplyDeleteJohn 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself."
The time frame for ALL men is during the Millennium and the White Throne Judgment.
There is no contradiction with John 6:44 here.
There needs to be some kind of COG "FICO SCORE" or "YELP" , for members and ministers alike!
ReplyDeleteGo below a certain "reputation level" and out the door you go, from any level of the org, from top to bottom, Apostle to Lay Member.
MMy answer is NO, who are they to jugge us? Don't forget Math7:2 For with what judgement you judge, you shall be judged.... Luke 6: Do not judge others, so that you yourself will not be juged...
ReplyDeleteAbove all judge righteos judgement,
In others words who are they to tell us we are not worthy to join? Did Jesus have his disciplers only let certain people hear him speak? Can a minister k now what's in your heart, I don't think so!
.
" If you leave us, you're turning your back on God and on His selected leaders, and headed for the lake of fire. "
ReplyDeletethere's the old saying, "not everyone AT church is IN the church"
guess that could also mean that not every leader is His selected leader....Paul warned us about that.
All cults do this, I believe that it is one of the signs of a cult, follow me or else, if you don't do what I say, you go to hell or lake of fire. No person has the power or authority to tell another that they don't have salvation, no matter what title they've taken upon themselves. It's pure arrogance and pride. Extortion is also practiced, if you don't pay tithes or common then no salvation for you either. Jesus didn't ask or demand money from people, he didn't live in a compound, didn't have a "world headquarters", it's all a bunch of BS.
ReplyDeleteIn all churches there are human that are weak and sometimes they become ministers for the good or bad. That being said, Paul gave us the process to remove someone from the church.
ReplyDeleteIf they sin openly and dont repent and continue in that sin. The ministry has a duty to remove that person from the congregation. if and when they repent the ministry has a duty to restore them back to the membership. If there is an argument with argue with Christ .
While I attended services, there were many long time members who "sin openly and don't repent and continue in that sin." These were abusive, slanderous, and vicious when members complained. Yet the ministers did nothing. It wasn't government by law, but government by men. Only certain types of sin or people were put out the church. But never the church loonies in my experience.
DeleteThat's exactly what you want Tonto but it's not from God or Jesus that's for sure.
ReplyDelete9:17 Minister.
ReplyDeleteWhere did this quote come from? What is the source? Who said it?
ReplyDelete"We are the only ones who know the truth. The only ones God is working with on this entire planet. You can't just make yourself a member; God has to put you in. And we determine whether He is doing that. And once you are in this secret, elite group, it is so special you'll never want to leave, even if there is some abusive leadership. There's nowhere else to go. If you leave us, you're turning your back on God and on His selected leaders, and headed for the lake of fire."
Where did this quote come from? What is the source? Who said it?
ReplyDeleteI apologize for making that look like a direct quote. It was not. I should have preceded it with, "If they had clearly stated their views, they would have said...".