From a CGI source:
I just noticed that CGI has removed all of the comments associated with Jeff's post from their website, and they have removed Jeff's post and the 90+ comments associated with it on their Facebook page. I can think of a number of reasons for doing this (none of them very good). It does appear from Mr. Stinson's and Mr. Reed's comments that they were particularly sensitive to the characterization of their organization as being bitterly divided over the issue. Whatever their reasoning, I think that it is dishonest and futile to attempt to hide or minimize the differences within the church on this issue (and very reminiscent of how the old Worldwide Church handled anything which presented the church in a negative or unfavorable light).
See this article that spurred it on:
Church of God International Internal War Over COVID ContinuesJeff had even commented on the above article on this blog and then deleted his comment after CGI officials deleted his articles and all of the comments. It is amazing how COG leaders work so quickly to silence people but yet take forever if at all, to assist members when they are in need. Just more proof of the downward spiral of the Armstrong Church of God movement.
How quickly things change. From having the full support of CGI and the publication of his well-written article to his articles and comments being deleted. The COG, as unified as ever!
Nothing that I have written previously or in the current article should be interpreted as some sort of civil war in the CGI. The real war we face is against Covid. As an elder in God's Church, I have a responsibility to teach our membership and others Biblical truths that can save lives. Especially when that information is currently critical.My article "Pandemic Fiction" addressed the false information that has been responsible for so many people unnecessarily getting sick and dying. These are real-world scenarios proving that God's instructions about blessings and cursings are true. If you believe and follow lies, you will experience "curses" in your life.I wrote this follow-up article, "Delta Isolation," after several well-meaning people commented to me that they heard Covid is more severe when you are vaccinated. Where did they hear this? All of the data is exactly the opposite of this. I was barely sick myself but tested positive enough to spread the disease. This is what was learned from the outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts. Of the 374 vaccinated who tested positive, there were only 4 hospitalizations with no deaths. That number would normally be around 10-20 percent in the unvaccinated and around 2 percent deaths. The majority only suffered very mild symptoms similar to my own. So with this easily available information, why would some in the church believe the opposite?The church of God culture has some who from previous affiliations are very anti-medicine. And they get their bad information from conspiracy sources such as Natural News or Infowars. This is also true of a growing number of evangelicals.This is not the teaching of CGI. Some quotes from our Systematic Theology Project of what we teach:
"The scientific and technological progress of the health sciences has been remarkable, especially over the last few decades, with increasing sophistication and effectiveness of technique, combined with a decreasing incidence of complications and side effects. For such achievements man should give God the credit; for it was God who created the human mind, empowering it with the creative brilliance to constantly attain to new heights of achievement in the physical world.""What about medicines and drugs? Revelation 21:8 says that “sorcerers” (Greek, pharmakos) shall have their part in the lake of fire. The clear evidence indicates the word pharmakia referred to cult worship and the use of drugs to induce spells, rather than modern medicines and drugs. Medicines used to heal sickness are not condemned in the Bible.""When one seeks professional medical help, he should select the most competent within his means. There are different specialties and different degrees of competency among individual practitioners just as in any profession."
It is my intention to direct the Church of God to professional, competent health sources and away from the false information that can lead to misery, suffering, and death.Many so-called "alternative medicines" are, in fact, not medicine at all. It is either medicine, or it is not. Much of "alternative medicine" is related to occult and pagan ideas about magic, amulets, etc. For example, the founder of chiropractic got his information from necromancy.And creating magic potions from over-diluting substances, combining essential oils, or redirecting your chi is just a waste of time and could cause serious problems to go untreated.
The real question is why this website targets CGI in such a small minded manner. Lead by fake names pretending to be related to CGI Pastors. What is driving this agenda? Who is driving this agenda? Is a other COG furious with CGI for not joining with them ?
ReplyDeleteIt appears that Jeff doesn't fully understand what the "vaccine" does to the body. I hope it's not so but it is very possible that serious complications will start popping up in the next few years.
ReplyDeleteYou don’t understand what the vaccine does to the body. I bet you’re a Trump fan too.
DeleteThis is my fear for many in the Church, that they rely too much on so called "Chiropractic medicine", but not on true forms of medicine that have clinically been proven to work. Church members say they put their faith in God...meaning not seeking sound and proven medical advise, but in their eyes chiropractors are different. Yes, there are some doctors out there that do not have the patient's best interests in mind, but the majority of the doctors do. When you look at the origins of chiropractic medicine, it is clear that it is dangerous place to be messing with. When I hear stories of chiropractors doing muscle testing by simply placing their hand on someone, or even extreme cases...over the phone, this is not Godly. It is as if the practitioner is saying they have some kind of special power. A chiropractor is only good for adjusting bones. They cannot heal, they cannot treat cancer or other illness by bone adjustment. I have seen people die because they relied on their chiropractor to help them with the dark world of false medicine. People in a sense are saying their chiropractor is a god.
ReplyDeleteI want to set the record straight about my recently written article and the reaction to it. Like many in the Church of God, I have read the Banned by HWA blog to keep current on COG news and gauge the various reactions and perceptions to different organizations.
ReplyDeletePart of my job as the Director of Media and Marketing for the CGI is to develop effective strategies to engage the public. After I was made aware of the perception that was created by the comments to the Facebook post, I decided to delete it. This is nothing new. It has been a long-standing practice to delete posts that devolve into a debate or name-calling. That is the very reason that we have not allowed comments on our Youtube videos. Youtube comments usually get ugly quickly.
After reviewing the functionality of our website, the settings were changed recently to remove all commenting abilities. This was my decision due to my job responsibilities delegated to me by our board. This change was being planned for several months and was not part of some grand conspiracy. It was also not done in reaction to these specific articles. This change serves two purposes. First, comments on the site do not add to the user experience. Debates, name-calling, trolling, etc., are not aligned with our online media goals. Many websites are doing the same thing for many of the same reasons.
https://www.kqed.org/lowdown/29720/no-comment-why-a-growing-number-of-news-sites-are-dumping-their-comment-sections
Second, this is another step in streamlining the CGI website to be closer in function with our App. This has been an ongoing process this year.
I also was very aware that deleting my comment here would bring it to the forefront of this site due to the conspiratorial nature of many of the articles. I was correct. I want to emphasize that my articles do not contradict with established CGI doctrine. Like many of our writers, I also expressed my own opinion on the subject. Some may disagree with what I wrote, and that is OK. We allow freedom of thought and expression in our organization, and we respect everyone's freedom to their opinions. We still show love to each other regardless of our different views on subjects.
I also want to set the record straight on accusations of a Civil War in the CGI. Lonnie Hendrix (Miller Jones) has many differences with Bill Watson and often uses this forum to address them. That is his right. But please do not bring me into this. I am good friends with Bill, and we work closely as colleagues on various projects every week. I have great respect for his ministry and his abilities as a communicator. We are aligned in promoting the Gospel in the most effective ways possible.
I have worked for several chiropractors in the past and , God bless them, they can be helpful. However I have found so many so badly want to be considered equal to medical doctor and simply are not. Some stray out of "scope of practice" with woo woo and ideas that one could never prove and with questionable outcomes. Chiropractors were God's natural physicians in WCG.
ReplyDeleteOne I worked with had a nice comfortable to use low and medium settings. I think it may have had some value with heat and vibration etc, but the third setting said "Spirit" lol. I aske about that and he said, "oh it's all bullshit who cares!" lol. He also was paying me $25 for a patient of his massage and charging insurance, my friend behind the desk informed, $125 to insurance. Hmmmm. He had to stop as a local chiropractor had a stable of therapists and was doing the same. The state shut him down eventually over insurance issues.
He was also adjusting dogs in the same room between clients and I mentioned to him that I doubt OSHA would like that. He said, "I know" and stopped it. I always wondered what patients thought when waiting on their appointment and watching another walk their dog into the same room.
Another thought it funny to introduce me to his patients referred for massage as "Denis". I guess he thought that was funny. It stopped when I said, "Thank you Mary" (His name was Ari). I also saw him hiding in the back of the clinic while his secretary was taking holy hell from a couple that drove a long way for a gift certif visit he refused to honor. I told him to "get out there and help the receptionist out!" He said no. not his problem. Service with a snicker.
So it would not be uncommon in WCG refugees to also find horse and cow paste, available without prescription at your local Feed and Seed store, for parasites, something that appealed to them as being more natural, certainly cheaper and approved by God more perhaps.
"I'm picky about what I put into my body" as they stopped at McDonalds on the way to the Feed Store... Each to own.
The useless battle rages often on the Ambassador Alumni site. No one changes anyone on anything is pretty typical as each has their own set of "alternative facts" to offer in defense of their opinions.
I think we now know how it would all go down in the Churches of God when the Seven Last Plagues of Revelation hit. There goes the command to "all speak the same thing that there be no division among you...."
Is there an "herb" available for treatment for the hangover of the WCG HERB??
ReplyDeleteI use the services of a chiropractor. She is a atheist and she does a fine job relieving back pain.
ReplyDeleteIf she does a fine job, why do you have to keep going back?
DeleteDennis wrote: "The useless battle rages often on the Ambassador Alumni site. No one changes anyone on anything is pretty typical as each has their own set of "alternative facts" to offer in defense of their opinions."
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesing insight. I would have expected that there would be greater unity of view among former AC students. I supposed we can chalk this up to the seething dissension that exists among the plethora of little Armstrongist denominations.
I have observed that there is a difference in the quality of "alternative facts." (Its odd that facts used to have an inherent truth value but Kellyanne Conway introduced the idea that facts are a matter of personal predilection and are independent of the truth. I was hoping that her philsophy would not stick.) Some will cite reliable sources and tend to favor medical protocols. Others are stentors for populist disinformation and haul out "Dr. Strangeways" to support some fringe and concocted theory in opposition to medical protocols. I do not believe that medical science is always right but Dr. Strangeways is almost consistently wrong. The distinction is really between black and white and the ambiguity is not nearly as great as one might think.
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6.40 AM
ReplyDeleteFreedom's of thought and expression was not a WWCOG trait. Rather, the ministers waged a war against it. The frequent references to unity and speaking the same thing was used to suppress such freedoms. As were frequent sermons on government.
HWA members have been brainwashed by this teaching, and it's only by extensive reading on this topic, together with much mental effort can they break free from the conditioning.
What's Jeff's group gonna to think when they see Jesus hanging out with Dave??
ReplyDeleteThis blog has always welcomed the commentary of any Armstrong Church of God ministers who have been brave enough to wade into this forum. In the case of the Church of God International, the comments of Ian Boyne, Vance Stinson and Jeff Reed have always received the appreciation and respect of the regular commentators here (including myself).
ReplyDeleteAs for the two posts that Mr. Reed has penned about Covid-19, I have expressed my unqualified support for both of them here and on CGI's website. Indeed, my intention was to encourage what I considered to be a voice of reason within that church - someone voicing the appropriate Christian reaction to public health measures. Unfortunately, Mr. Reed's and Mr. Stinson's views on this topic have been angrily shouted down by some of the folks within their own ranks. And, it may be a very unpleasant reality for these men to face, but many of their most vocal opponents came from the ranks of Mr. Bill Watson's supporters (Bill has been a steadfast advocate of the view that Covid isn't that bad, and that masking and vaccines are not effective measures for dealing with the pandemic).
Unfortunately, the Armstrong Church of God movement has a long history of attempting to present a façade of unity to both its membership and the wider world. As most of us are by now well aware, that has NEVER been the case (and it is NOT currently the case within CGI). Mr. Reed and Mr. Watson may indeed be good friends, but the FACT is that their public statements on this topic are in profound disagreement with each other! Moreover, as related here, the commentary from some of the members of Mr. Reed's own church has been angry, vicious, condescending and dismissive. For whatever reason (and I'm willing to take Mr. Reed at his word), the evidence of that war of words has been erased (although this blog has preserved a record of some of them).
At any rate, CGI gets to maintain the illusion of unity and agreement while the resentment and bitterness over this issue continues to simmer within its ranks. We can all appreciate the fact that Mr. Stinson and Mr. Reed are walking a tightrope in this instance and obviously feel compelled to try to maintain the peace. However, judging from the nature of the very ugly reaction which Mr. Reed's articles have engendered from some quarters (folks threatening to "block" folks and/or leave the church), it is highly unlikely that anything they do now will serve to appease/mollify the opponents of their views. For those of us who support public health measures and the science behind this pandemic and believe that Christians are obligated to love their neighbors as themselves, we can only hope that Mr. Reed's voice on this topic will NOT be completely silenced within the church!
Christ is the head of the church he cannot be the head of himself.
ReplyDeleteIs "medicine" always what it appears to be? If medical "science" is so great, why are doctors being censored? Is Bill Gates a doctor? Would you trust him if he was? Are Journalists doctors? why does the famous lawyer Reiner Fuellmich say the pandemic is a crime against humanity? Why is he in the process of taking "modern medicine" to the international criminal court? Why is the CDC being used? Why does the Nuremberg code prohibit the kind of "medicine" being pushed by the media today?
ReplyDeleteAre the evil spirits in the COGs any better than those in witchcraft?
ReplyDeleteNot all medical science is benevolent. Sometimes it is a bio-weapon. Is the "vax" a bio-weapon?
ReplyDeleteInternational Criminal Court lawsuit:
https://howardsopinion.wordpress.com/icc-claim-of-may-8-2021/
August 19, 2021 at 11:30 AM
ReplyDeleteWho's science. What organization?
The Holistic and Wellness approach to health (of which Chiropractic is but one modern part) has been around since Hippocrates and is a legitimate "alternative" to modern medicine, in spite of what THEY SAY. Which method do you suppose Luke the physician practiced?
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing new that biased "in-groups" in power (like the WCG and AMA) like to downgrade and maliciously attack "out-groups" (their competition), labeling them as bogus and illegitimate. If I remember correctly, didn't a very powerful "in-group" once accuse the Son of God of being illegitimate and of Satan? Hmmm!!
Seems like a very poor bioweapon, with that survival rate and its range of symptoms that cant be counted on to develop consistently.
ReplyDelete" For those of us who support public health measures and the science behind this pandemic ..."
ReplyDeleteYou mean the public health measures & science that keeps changing with the political wind?
A little critical thinking applied to this "pandemic" would do everyone a lot of good.
Yes, COVID is a bad disease, but you will almost certainly survive it, unless you already have serious health issues. Then it can be life threatening. There are many highly effective treatments for COVID that are much safer than the vaccine, and apparently more effective than it too.
As for public health measures, just look at masks. Originally they were of no value. Then politics got into it and now the powers that be want everyone masked up all the time. The true science shows masks to be much more of a danger than a help. This was learned in the Spanish Flu epidemic.
People will believe what they want.
" Lonnie Hendrix (Miller Jones) has many differences with Bill Watson and often uses this forum to address them."
ReplyDeleteWhich says loads about his character.
Anonymous 8/20 @ 3:41,
ReplyDeletePublic health measures and true science are always accommodating and adjusting to new/more information. As for masks, if I'm remembering correctly, our public health system was afraid that there wouldn't be enough masks for health care professionals. Again, compare the infection rates in country's wear mask wearing is considered awkward and restrictive (like the U.S.) and country's where mask wearing is socially acceptable and considered normal politeness. "People will believe what they want" - Yes, they certainly will.
Anonymous 8/20 @ 3:42,
You may not have been following this blog back then, but I tried to reach out to Mr. Watson in a direct one-on-one not too long ago. Most of the folks who saw his response to me that it was completely bizarre, egocentric and inappropriate. You may want to look back through the posts here and dig that one up. If you do, please let us know what you think Mr. Watson's comments say about his character.
Lonnie
wear/where What was I thinking? :)
ReplyDelete" Again, compare the infection rates in country's wear mask wearing is considered awkward and restrictive (like the U.S.) and country's where mask wearing is socially acceptable and considered normal politeness. "People will believe what they want" - Yes, they certainly will."
ReplyDeleteThe numbers show that where masks are mandated COVID infection rates go up, way up. Also, dentists report a problem labeled "mask mouth" which is skin infection around the mouth, and ophthalmologists are reporting increased eye infections among those that wear a mask all the time. This is on top of increased rates of pneumonia and other respiratory infections (which were experienced during the Spanish Flu outbreak resulting in increased fatalities).
The medical community has strict protocols for masks, which the general public does not follow.
I find it interesting that those shouting "follow the science" won't do so themselves.
Except "Fauci's paper about the Spanish Flu" you are referencing (from a random FB meme at that) never mentions masks. You would know this if you actually read it instead of instantly believing things created by nerds in their basement just to see how many dummies will fall for it.
DeleteFolks can decide for themselves about the point is was making about the efficacy of masking. Here are the raw numbers from around the world:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-maps-and-cases/
CGI lost its way many years ago. They try and be as liberal as possible and pleasing to the world. Look at their child-rearing booklet with its Interracial couple! Shocking! God is not mocked by this blatant disregard for the true family structure.
ReplyDeleteThe following comment was posted to my private email account:
ReplyDeleteIt is the right thing to do to use a gun to protect my family and myself from potentially deadly harm from a human attacker. God could miraculously protect me but I believe He expects me to do my part and use my brain and use a gun.
But, it is not the right thing to do to get a shot to protect my family and myself from potentially deadly harm from a viral attacker. God will miraculously protect me and doesn't expect me to use human inventions that I believe are harmful. He doesn't expect me to trust humans who use their brains to produce a vaccine.
Which is hole-ier (holier?): a bullet hole or a needle hole?
Given that the vaccine is obviously not working (those that are vaxed are in more danger from Delta than the unvaxed) the needle hole clearly is of no value.
ReplyDeleteAnonymousAugust 23, 2021 at 5:51 AM wrote: "Given that the vaccine is obviously not working (those that are vaxed are in more danger from Delta than the unvaxed) the needle hole clearly is of no value."
ReplyDelete******
More importantly is: what is in the fluids that go into that needle hole?
People should research what those fluids will do inside one's cells, because they may find out that what's in those fluids is responsible for messing up one's natural immune system, and perhaps creating Spike proteins, and is going to lead to lots of clot problems with permanent problems with the heart, lungs, etc., and with additional jabs, more peanent damage, and possibly early death but, time will tell...
It was a reason why those that are vaxed go on and still get the covid.
Once upon a time we were taught there is a cause for every effect!
Some newscast people are saying that the devil is in the details (Really? Acts 10:38; 2 Tim 2:26; Heb 2:14-15, etc.), but history will eventually tell his/her story, as...
Time will tell...
John
Miller Jones, August 22, 2021 at 5:02 PM, said...
ReplyDeleteThe following comment was posted to my private email account:
It is the right thing to do to use a gun to protect my family and myself from potentially deadly harm from a human attacker. God could miraculously protect me but I believe He expects me to do my part and use my brain and use a gun.
But, it is not the right thing to do to get a shot to protect my family and myself from potentially deadly harm from a viral attacker. God will miraculously protect me and doesn't expect me to use human inventions that I believe are harmful. He doesn't expect me to trust humans who use their brains to produce a vaccine.
Which is hole-ier (holier?): a bullet hole or a needle hole?
******
It appears that both are evil, and we are learning to hate evil. Perhaps the question could be posed as:
Which is the least evil: a bullet hole or a needle hole?
Once upon a time, someone commented saying that the Devil could give us 5 choices. They're all evil, so which one would one choose? It's still evil.
The imagination of the human heart today does not seem to be very much different from the pre-flood days:
"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." Genesis 6:5
But, if we are to learn to hate evil, then how?
Psalm 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Could that verse mean that if one loves (a fruit of God's Spirit) the LORD, one will hate evil? If so, then please give me some of that love, especially if that LORD is also going to preserve us, and deliver us from the hand of the armed wicked attacker (like the one with the gun?)!
But, if we are to learn to hate evil, then is there another way to do it?
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
It looks like God hates, but that fear of the LORD? Well, that must be a fruit of God's Spirit also. It is nothing of self. Again, it appears that God must provide us with a lot of help, but the Bible tells us He isn't working with most today.
Perhaps, regardless of what any of us thinks, we do live in an evil day, and one way or the other, to one degree or another, we all will continue to learn to hate evil, and look forward to a future day when the following verse become reality:
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Rev 21:4
That certainly would eliminate a lot of evil, but
Time will tell...
John