In light of the recent post here about Gerald Weston's whitewashing of Herbert Armstrong, Rod Meredith, and the Church of God's abysmal track record on prophecy, I thought this would be a great separate thread.
Weston's explanation of HWA's 1975 in Prophecy booklet might be more believable if HWA hadn't already had a track record by then of making predictions and setting dates, which can be traced all the way back to early editions of the Plain Truth in the 1930s. For instance, the June 1934 edition of the Plain Truth had a chart in it where HWA labeled 1936 as the "end of the age." When that didn't happen, he simply kicked the can down the road a bit and made other predictions, and set other dates, much like Pack, Flurry, and others do today. For example, in the February 1938 Plain Truth, he declared Mussolini the "Beast" of Revelation, and in January of 1939 he further promoted this idea, saying that "MUSSOLINI UNDOUBTEDLY IS THE "BEAST" and "MUSSOLINI WILL FIGHT CHRIST!"
Weston also ignores the fact that HWA also promoted and taught the idea of 19 year time cycles, and made his own claims based on those time cycles. For example, in Chapter 24 of his Autobiography, he has this to say,
"God set the earth, sun, and moon in their orbits to mark off divisions of time on the
earth. One revolution of the earth is a day. One revolution of the moon around the earth is a lunar month (according to God’s sacred calendar). One revolution of the earth around the sun is a solar year. But the earth, the sun, and the moon come into almost exact conjunction only once in 19 years. Thus 19 years mark off one complete time-cycle!"
He went on to use this statement to promote the idea that God timed his entry into the ministry based on the number of time cycles that had occurred since Pentecost of 31AD.
It is both a double standard and rank hypocrisy to criticize the "speculations" of others, making the statement that "some never learn" while glossing over and excusing the same behavior in the very leaders you hold up as bastions of "truth" such as HWA and Meredith.
It would be totally refreshing if just one of these guys was able to admit that HWA engaged in this behavior and was WRONG, as did Rod Meredith and others, and that we need to learn from the false claims and sins of our predecessors so we don't fall prey to repeating their mistakes.
It is contradictory to claim out of one side of your mouth, as HWA did, that you were not called to "be a prophet" while also writing articles and booklets predicting specific events to be fulfilled by specific people, using titles such as "1975 in Prophecy" and also claiming that you are the fulfillment of an end time "voice crying out in the wilderness" as prophesied in Malachi 3:1
.
"John the Baptist was a voice crying out in the physical wilderness of the Jordan River area, preparing for the human physical Jesus' first coming to a material temple at Jerusalem, to a physical Judah. But that was a type, or forerunner of a voice "lifted up" (greatly amplified by modern printing, radio and TV), crying out in the midst of today's spiritual wilderness of religious confusion, announcing the imminency of Christ's SECOND coming as the spiritually GLORIFIED Christ, to His spiritual temple (the Church resurrected to spirit immortality)." Plain Truth Magazine, January 1980
If you claim you aren't a "prophet" that doesn't excuse you if you then go on to make false predictions, or engage in the same behavior that defines a false prophet.
Concerned Sister
In a second comment, there was this:
The date setting, and the abundant evidence of its ongoing denial, backpedaling, and rewrite is exactly why God would have to use a completely new and different group as His end time witness. Armstrongism has burned itself as a credible witness, and current members are just kidding themselves if they think otherwise. The credibility of other Christian groups has also fallen apart.
If you're just pulling into town from the feast, looking forward to a sabbath in your home town, and thinking to yourself "See? We have the truth about God's test commandment, the sabbath, so God will reveal His plans to us!", then you better wonder about the effectiveness of the sabbath as a signifier of God's True Church, because Armstrongism has a 100% failure rate in end time prophecy, dating way back to the WW-II era when HWA was preaching that the war would culminate in Armageddon, Hitler and Mussolini were the Beast, and Pope Pius was the AntiChrist. And, this was before Israel was even reborn as a nation, which was very necessary for the prophecies in Revelation to come to pass. For years, he denied that Hitler's body was Hitler, and preached that he was alive in South America, and would arise to complete the job. Sounds soooo much like a recent president, doesn't he? False leaders are always detached from reality!
Even GTA stated that 1975 in Prophecy was a total failure and he warned HWA as soon as the late 60's that his proclamations of 1975 were likely not to pass and to disregard the 19 year time cycle fixation. It gets me that some of the church leaders like Flurry will just say anything regardless of how untrue it may be and just try to whitewash false claims in the past and rewrite history. I guess the absolute power that mini Hitler's like Flurry enjoy leads to a hubris that they can do or say anything without repercussions.
ReplyDeleteAll you do is use this website to mock, attack and ridicule people with sincerely held Christian beliefs. The irony is that you’re fulfilling end time prophecy and you’re clueless to realize it. Normally I’d say that you ought to be ashamed of yourself, but that’d be placing to high an expectation upon you.
ReplyDeleteFear not these 6:57. They are being watched by many who are onto them.
DeleteHWA's prophetic activities are classical Millerism. His early enlistment of predictive prophecy also set the keynote for the then Radio Church of God. This emphasis on predictive prophecy attracted people who were interested in this minor feature in the Bible. I term it "minor" because it has little to do with the major Christian orthopraxis which is about loving God and loving your neighbor. It is more like a conspiracy theory over which people can bond socially and clandestinely. You know, "we few, we lucky few."
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot of prophecy in the OT - but much of it would fall into the category of inspired speaking rather than prediction. The mystery of the ages is why and how did HWA embark on the prediction venture? Was this something he inherited from his Millerite contacts or did he already have a personal penchant for such ideas? Did he acquire it after he arrived or did he bring it when him? In his autobiography he seemed to be a staid entrepreneur just beginning to realize the economic value of advertising. And after that a sudden veering off into a mystical landscape of prognostication. I have an intuitive feeling that it was not just a business plan from the beginning.
Another unanswered question is what role Loma Armstrong, seldom ever mentioned anywhere, had in forming this early mystical bent. Although I have heard Armstrongists characterize her as a saint, she might be the key to the early formation of Armstrongism around a nucleus of predictive prophecy.
I think that Armstrongism could actually be classified as a charismatic movement. Some charismatics leap over pews, dance wildly and practice glossolalia. But in Armstrongism, all that energy is poured into prediction and anticipation - the nerdish, Houteffian end of charismata. Maybe one day we will get an answer to that fascinating question: "What happened to Herbert?" And that inevitable follow-up question, "Why, then, did it happen to me?"
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The next "time cycle" came around in 1991, during the Gulf War, but one of the big moves occurred on January 17, not January 7. I suppose if HWA had still been around, he would have found something to crow about.
ReplyDeleteMuch of the authority and provenance of the COG ministry is that it is descended from the "chosen one of God" , in the name of HWA. This allows for the sanctioning of the authorization to take tithes, and the control of sacraments that the laity are supposedly in need of, ie, baptizing, anointing, marrying , burying etc.
ReplyDeleteWhen HWA is shown as a "paper tiger", then all of their authority vanishes, as the supposed sanctioned, ordained and special leadership descended from that so called "special chosen of God" individual.
Groups like Living, Flurry , Pack, etc, use coverup techniques , or odd apologetics to justify HWA and his personal and professional failures. UCG goes another direction and simply pretends that he never existed and rarely mentions his name or being a predecessor to the group.
It is liberating to understand that Jesus tore the veil in the temple, and that all have direct access to God without the need for human intercessors, including HWA and his ministerial descendants. We are all free to do the work of God in any fashion without having to rely on a so called" ordained intermediary", and are indeed the Priesthood of Believers as stated in 1 Peter 2:9 .
Hoss: You may know PCG found "something to crow about" in 1/16/91. On that night U.S. time (actually the 17th in Kuwait), U.S. and allied forces entered Kuwait.
ReplyDeleteThat leaves 2010 - and the record shows not much of note happened on either 1/7 or 1/16.
Anon @ 6:57 wrote: All you do is use this website to mock, attack and ridicule people with sincerely held Christian beliefs.
ReplyDeleteAs for "sincere" beliefs, as Herbert loved to mention so often, "Christians are sincere all right, but sincerely wrong!" There is no way this blog or anything we post here could ever damage a "sincere" persons standing with God...IF and I repeat IF they truly believed in all that they think they believe in. The problem arises with COG members who start to see cracks in the walls of their church when their ministers or leaders say and do stupid things that don't jive with what they have come to expect as true faithful standards of practice. This causes some members to be embarrassed at the antics of their leaders and thus lash out in an overly protective manner to waylay criticism, which may be justly needed but yet still embarrassing. When other COG members see the complete hypocrisy of those leaders and say things it embarrasses their loyal followers as not being as smart or open-minded as those other COG members.
Sincere followers of God are open to criticism and can use it as a tool to deepen their faith or a chance to be open to that criticism and realize what they had thought was "truth" was a mixture of all kinds of esoteric beliefs that have nothing to do with what a real follower of Jesus would be doing or believing.
In the Churches of God, from Herbert Armstrong and on down, the track record of prophecy is an abysmal "0". This includes all the modern-day rants of Dave Pack, Bob Thiel, Ron Weinland, Alton Billingsly, John Rittenbaugh, Gerald Flurry, and many other self-appointed know-it-all COG prophets. Not one single one of them has ever been accurate. Scripture states that if a prophet even tells one propehcy that fails then that person is a false prophet. It even goes as far as to say they should be killed. Pretty strong words to use compared to the puny sarcastic posts/comments here on this blog.
Well, somebody just got put in his/her place. I bet that somebody is a "Christian."
ReplyDelete1:13 wrote “ Fear not these 6:57. They are being watched by many who are onto them.”
ReplyDeleteToo funny! Are we supposed to feel threatened? We know for a fact that we are monitored by certain COG’s for years now. That makes this even more fun to do!
Even more fun to do! Fun!? how jolly hockey sticks of you NO2HWA. What a unique sense of humor you must have. You must love telling inappropriate jokes at unique moments. And "we" how interesting.
DeleteNo wonder their prophecies fail!
ReplyDeletehttps://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Amen
How people sit and listen every week to these regurgitated vomit sermons is beyond my comprehension. If Armstrongism was the answer, it would not have been totally DESTROYED!! HELLO?? Where is Ambassador College NOW?? Where is any of it?? The only vestige of it lies with the FALSE prophets and the WOLVES masquerading in sheep’s CLOTHING!! You will know them by “THEIR FRUITS “!! Do they have the LOVE OF GOD?? I think NOT!! Do they preach the GRACE OF GOD?? I think NOT!! W A K E UP PEOPLE!! Time is running out and WESTON and WINNAIL are NOT going to save you!! Their little game of SIMON SAYS is going to be SHORT LIVED because they are FAKE!! It is all about CONTROL and MONEY!! They have to CONTROL to keep the MONEY coming in!! They only care about you as it pertains to their INCOME!! Turn to Him!! Time is RUNNING OUT!!
ReplyDeleteExactly. To ACOG leaders, their members are only assets to be heartlessly exploited. If they can't take advantage of someone, they discard them like a dirty rag.
DeleteIt's mind boggling since this comes from bible quoting teachers. I've met some better natured people who just cannot comprehend that this level of evil exists in their group.
HWA some five 19-year time cycle too early?
ReplyDeleteIsa 41:22 Let them bring them forth, and show us what shall happen: let them show the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
Typology suggests that Christ’s return is not imminent, the ‘type’ for the future:
September 3, 1929 peak in Dow Jones Industrial Average
Hoover Contraction of the Great Depression - August 1929 to March 1933
January 30, 1933 - Hitler named Chancellor of Germany
February 1933 - Hitler's instruction 'to create an army of the greatest possible strength'
Roosevelt Expansion - March 1933 to May 1937
January 7, 1934 - first independent broadcast of HWA’s radio ministry
February 1934 - First issue of The Plain Truth - “Is a World Dictator About to Appear”
Roosevelt Contraction - May 1937 to June 1937
September 30, 1938 - Munich/Peace Agreement
February 1939 Plain Truth article - “Where and How the World War Will Start”
March 15, 1939 - Hitler breaks Munich Agreement by seizing the rest of Czechoslovakia
December 11, 1941 - USA declares war on Nazi Germany
September 2, 1945 - Formal surrender of Japan ending WW2
May 14, 1948 - David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel
Some numbers from the above:
Eighteen years and 8 months from the peak in the stockmarket to establishment of the State of Israel
Twelve years and three months from peak of stockmarket to US entry into World War 2
Nine years and approximately one month from the peak in the stockmarket to the Munich/Peace Agreement
Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Six years and eleven months from the Munich Covenant to the end of WW2
Three years and 2 months from the Munich Covenant to American entry into WW2
Three years and nine months from the entry of American in to WW2 to the end of WW2
Two years and 8 months from the end of WW2 to the establishment of the state of Israel
Eze 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east
Anonymous @ October 2, 2021 at 6:57 AM,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. There are mockers as prophesied. We uesd to think of mockers as those outside the church, not knowing that our former brethren are the real mockers. Sad.
My questions to all anti-Armstrongism is this:
1. Why is the dietary law not God ordained for all human beings? Why is it only good for the Old Testament Israelites but not for New Testament Christians? Logically if God is our Creator does not He know what is good for our physical bodies in terms of clean and unclean meat?
2. Popular Christendom/Accepted Christianity talk of "God is love", "All you need is Jesus Christ and Grace" and anti Sabbath/Holy Days. Logically, if God is our Creator, surely He has a Plan for mankind? I am yet to hear of a satisfactory answer to "What happen to all those who died without a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?".
I am giving two examples to show that God's truth on clean and unclean meat and the Plan of Salvation as pictured by the Annual Sabbaths are only two Armstrong teachings in line with God's truth.
Anon 9:56 you state ‘We used to think of mockers as those outside the church,not knowing that our former brethren are the real mockers. Sad’.
ReplyDeleteI would be correct in assuming you therefore are someone who attends an CoG congregation. The comment ‘former brethren’,but from what domination of the Armstrong movement would that allude too? And here points to a problem within the ‘church’. Massive division among those attendees today. Many of us here who post on this blog are not ‘mockers’ but have come to the realisation that Armstrongism in it’s many forms is deeply flawed and far removed from the teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The freedom we enjoy outside of this movement has enabled many of us to analyse and criticise freely it’s teachings without fear of disfellowship and worst. Many of us are indeed still Shabbat keepers, and keep the commandments as best we can, but free from the straight jacket of Armstrong and his deeply flawed theology. We are saved by grace and that through faith and that not of yourselves……..we thank God for His grace and His love freely shown us, Christ has indeed set us free……
Anonymous (9:56)
ReplyDeleteIs it mocking or is it answering a fool according to his folly? I believe some people contributing to this blog exceed the limits of good taste once in a while. And Armstrongists have long mocked mainstream Christianity, usually privately. I am sure they would say that they are answering a fool according to his folly. What we used to say about this kind of complaint is "you can dish it out but you can't take it."
Responses to the points you raise:
1. The Mosaic Law was abrogated in Jesus. This does not abrogate the eternal moral law of God. Herman Hoeh mistakenly labelled the Mosaic Law as God's eternal moral law. This conflation has caused many Armstrongists to presume that Christianity believes in the abrogation of God's eternal moral law. That is a calumny against Christianity.
Embedded in the abrogated Mosaic Law are the dietary laws. They have been abrogated. This does not mean that dogs are now good to eat. It means that what you eat is no longer a requirement for salvation as understood in ancient Judaism. Now wisdom and science must be applied to determining what is good to eat and what is not. Personally, I still follow the Mosaic dietary laws because I feel the Mosaic Law on this topic is a source of wisdom. It is not, however, a source of salvation.
2. Mainstream Christianity has a number of views on the mechanism of salvation. These views range from some believing that few people will be saved to some believing that everybody will be saved. Some believe that the unevangelized go to hell (Calvinism) and some believe that the unevangelized enter Paradise after some purgation (many Universalists).
Armstrongism has a single view on this topic because it has always been a small, autocratically managed denomination. Every Christian denomination has a plan of salvation that they believe in. To say they do not is simply willful ignorance.
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11:07. Wow! What a disturbed mind you must have. Never once in my life have I felt the need to tell an inappropriate joke. Is this something you have an issue dealing with?
ReplyDeleteNo, dietary laws have not been abrogated. Peter knew that - Acts 10. And Paul did not say you can eat anything in 1Tim 4:3 but that which people WHO KNOW THE TRUTH can eat.
ReplyDeletePeter was for all intents and purposes a practising Jew. He says "never" which means it has been his long standing culture and practice- notice he doesnt say "since death of messiah". For him, he was still throughoughly Jewish and the Christian world at that stage was Jewish too. However therein lies the point of the vision: you do not need to become a Jew to receive salvation- jews considered it necessary to join the congregation of Israel (through various practices to varying degrees, including circumcision) to receive divine favour (and salvation). It seems that even for early Christians who were Jewish,they still viewed the requirements of the old Coventant to be binding on them- Paul sacrifices, completes vows, keeps the holy days in jerusalem etc. These as well as dietary laws were requirements for the nation of Israel. We never see any gentile convert doing these things. Persecution, growing number of gentiles in the church, and ultimately the destruction of the temple facilitated the spilt from Judaism and hence the requirements of the
DeleteThe comments I made had nothing whatsoever to do with Biblical dietary guidelines, or the COG's view on salvation, and bringing up those things to deflect from the topic at hand in a way, underscores my point.
ReplyDeleteThe topic under discussion was Gerald Weston's commentary on the prophetic speculations of others, where he upbraided others for setting dates,speculating on prophetic events, etc. while at the same time minimized and excused the fact that past leaders he followed and associated with, including HWA engaged in the same behavior, and frankly continue to do so today.
I remember attending a public Bible lecture a few years ago where Richard Ames spent the majority of his talk engaging in prophetic speculations on "blood moons" which were supposed to occur the following year around the time of the fall holy days. To be fair, he wasn't the only one that year speculating on such things. John Hagee wrote an entire book about it. But, the blood moons of 2014 and 15 came and went, with no major significant prophetic events being connected with them.
I have frankly grown weary of listening to ministers rail against the shortcomings, faults, and sins of others, whether they are speaking of people they consider a part of "mainstream Christianity", or other groups within the COG movement, while ignoring the large elephant in the room staring everyone in the face. Our own hypocrisy in some of these areas is palpable, and if we want to be any sort of effective example to others as Christians we need to be willing to examine our own behavior and remove the planks from our own eyes, so as to see to help others with the specks in theirs.
HWA was not the first or only one to teach adherence to Biblical dietary guidelines, or a host of other things, and when the facts are actually studied, it might surprise some to learn that his views on the issue of clean and unclean meats was not as cut and dried as they seem to think it was. While he did teach adherence to these dietary laws as outlined in Leviticus 11, he did not seem to view the violation of these laws as "spiritual sin" or place them on the same level as breaking the ten commandments. His views on the issue can be read in chapter thirty of the first volume of his autobiography as well as an article titled Is All Animal Flesh Good Food? published in 1978. He took great umbrage against others who taught that eating pork, etc. was "sin" and even made the statement in the 1978 article,
"Now the eating of wrong food is not a transgression of this spiritual law, and is not a sin. To violate the physical laws of health often brings the penalty of disease, disability, pain, sickness, and sometimes the first death. It is not necessarily spiritual sin."
His views or teachings on the above topic or any other topic for that matter, and whether one agrees or not, does not erase the fact that he had a track record and reputation for promoting his own prophetic speculations as "truth" to the point of even setting dates, and plugging specific people and players into his imagined scenarios. To turn a blind eye to this and excuse it ignores plain scripture.
"You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:21-22
We should never place any human being on a pedestal to the point that all their words and actions are sacrosanct, and above the correction of scripture.
Concerned Sister
I don't want to follow the dietary laws; but, I'm grossed out by all the unclean beasties.
ReplyDeleteI realize that's absurd because the Bible plainly says I can eat all foods.
However, the dietary laws as erroneously preached by Armstrongism, is the one bit of the vile cult that I cannot shake.
I've tasted all of the unclean beasties when in social situations where I felt I could not politely decline (even Herbert the Pervert said he did not decline the unclean if he could not politely do so).
I have found the "unclean" to be un-tasty as well.
However, when I read "Kill and eat" in Acts 10:13-16 and consider the crazy Armstrongism interpretation of it meaning "accept Gentile converts" it is laughable how "Kill and eat" does not actually mean "kill and eat" - and can have nothing literally to do with killing and eating, or accepting Gentiles.
There is truly neither Greek nor Jew, unclean or clean.
Wow!
ReplyDeleteA 100% perfect record!
That's amazing!
Too bad it's a record of being 100 % wrong on so many predictions.
Knowing the greed of the Armstongite leadership, you've got to wonder if they're throwing their predictions in order to cash in on some kind of betting scheme.
I'm sure it's been noted before that even a stopped clock is correct two times per day - however, Armstrongism can't even claim to be as reliable as a broken clock.
I'm hoping that the COGlodyte who is exposing the Old Covenant dietary laws would be so helpful in explaining why the dietary laws are still in force when the COGs never comment on a prohibition of wearing mixed fiber clothing or the need to avoid cutting the corners of their beard.
ReplyDeleteHerbie, Meredith, Pack, Weston, Kubic - all have displayed their rejection of every jot and title of the Old Covenant by wantonly flaunting their shaved faces.
The ungodliness of the COG leaders is as plain as the lack of hair on their faces.
Lev 19:27 KJV: neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Do not allow to decay the edges of your beard: translation: keep your beard neatly trimmed if you have one. Note: there's no commandment to have a beard.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous of October 4, 2021 at 9:38 AM: your comment is typical COG rendering of scripture. Men (and some women) have beards - regardless of whether they choose to shave their beards or let them grow out. That scripture does not afford the option of shaving. You added the the "if you have one". Most translations translate Leviticus 19:27 as an instruction not to cut the edges of the beard - that would negate the "keep your beard neatly trimmed" or shaving of any kind.
ReplyDeleteAs is the custom of COGlodytes, you ignored the prohibition on wearing clothing woven of two kinds of material. The COG way is to throw up scripture twisting smoke screen to make it seem like they keep the law, while ignoring the scores of laws that they will not obey.