Map 2. Migration map of Eastern European nations and Eastern Germans (Haplogroup R1a)
Germany Plans to Rearm – Part 2
Nations Lost and Nations Found
By Neotherm
First, it provides useful context to summarize what Armstrongists believe about the migration of the Assyrians. The online article titled “The Remarkable Identity of the German People” authored by David Vejil is used here as a source for the Armstrongist view. I did not try to verify this view against that of Herman Hoeh or Edward Hine so there is some assumption on my part involved. I will not do a full review of the article but will focus on one salient point: Scythia.
“Archaeological data reveals that shortly after Xerxes’s (sic) disastrous campaign, a great migration of the Assyrian people from the Black Sea region occurred. With the Persian Empire weakening, the Assyrians moved from Asia Minor and the southern shores of the Black Sea to the sea’s northern shores—to a land called Scythia. Here they began to be called Scythians, and their identity was eventually obscured. But these people didn’t just disappear into thin air. They migrated west and underwent a name change!
Scythia actually serves as a kind of Black Box. Peoples go in and peoples come out but nobody really knows what happens inside the box. The Assyrians putatively entered the southern portal of Scythia and the Germans come out of the northwest portal without any documented connecting migration paths or trains of events. Migration imagination can become highly creative and in this case, Scythia is the blank canvas on which it paints. Also, it is not good to place too much trust in ancient historians. Herodotus may have identified some people as this or that but he also recorded that the tribe of Garamantes of Libya spent time hunting Ethiopian troglodytes who lived in holes in the ground and squeaked like bats. The Hoehist historical methodology that relies on ancient resources cannot stand by itself.
The Assyrian Genetic Identity
If ancient history can be suspect, how then can it be validated? If one can construct designer migrations of peoples at will then what are we to believe? Only in recent decades have we had the science of genetics to ameliorate this situation. We can call on the field of archaeogenetics and ask for the genetic data that will tell us who the ancient Assyrians were in the human family. There are not a lot of these data points yet but what is there is telling. In fact, this cannot be viewed as a selective presentation of data because this seems to be the entirety of what has been published on the topic. The two tables below contain Y chromosome haplogroups (Y HG) from excavated ancient Assyrian skeletal remains.
From: Haplogroup spreadsheet
Table 2.
Source | Y HG | Period | |
1 | de Barros Damgaard 2018 | J2a-M410 | ca. 2300–2000 BC |
2 | de Barros Damgaard 2018 | J2a1-L26 | ca. 2000–1750 BC |
3 | de Barros Damgaard 2018 | J2a1-L26 | ca. 1750–1500 BC |
From: Indo-Europeans and Uralic peoples, viii.13. Assyrians and Hittites
Table 1 shows five individuals who are known to be Assyrian from an archaeological context. The first two are typical haplogroup J Middle Easterners. The results reflect the J1 and J2 subclades of haplogroup J. Individuals 3 and 4 both have Middle Eastern mtDNA (female line) results. Individual 3 was also determined to have certain pigmentation characteristics shown in the Note. Individual 5 was haplogroup G but this sample was taken from Anatolia where the Assyrians had a trading outpost. Individual 5 could have been a native, non-Assyrian merchant associate.
Table 2 lists three Assyrians all of whom belong to subclades of haplogroup J2 – once again, typical of the Middle East. This data from different time periods supports the conclusion that Assyrians were haplogroup J. Absent is the important haplogroup R which would be typical of modern Germans. This data comports with what we find in the Bible when genetic principles are applied to genealogy. We have the following masculine line:
Noah → Shem → Asshur (Biblical progenitor of the Assyrians)
The German Genetic Identity
Now that it has been established, because of the haplogroup discrepancy, that the Germans are not the modern Assyrians, who then are the Germans? The two maps at the beginning of this essay trace the origins of the German people. Map 1 shows the migration of haplogroup R1b people, known as Yamnaya people – early forerunners of Western Europeans. This is the haplogroup of those countries in the far west of Europe along the Atlantic littoral such as the western part of Germany, England, Ireland, Scotland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, France, and parts of Fennoscandia. Map 2 traces the migration pattern of haplogroup R1a which is a predominant haplogroup in eastern Germany, the Baltic countries, and the Slavic countries. These maps are constructed from empirical data and not the hearsay of ancient historians.
Sidebar: There is the question of the point of origin of the haplogroup R people. Based on the present state of knowledge, the earliest site that indicates where haplogroup R might have originated is at Mal’ta Buret near Lake Baikal in Siberia. The skeleton of a young boy was found there and dated to 24,000 BP. The boy’s haplogroup was basal R*, the original haplogroup R form prior to subclade formation through mutation. This is the only occurrence of basal R* yet discovered. This could be where the mutations of haplogroup P occurred that produced Western Europeans. Haplogroup R is an immediate descendant of Haplogroup P.
Notice that on both maps there is no migration path for R1b or R1a into the area of the Middle East where ancient Assyria or ancient Israel were located. This is because there is no archaeogenetic data that has been discovered so far to indicate that haplogroup R1a or R1b people invaded the heart of the Middle East in ancient times.
Recommendation to Armstrongists Who Want Run Archaeology Projects
The absence of R1a or R1b data in the ancient lands of Assyria and Israel is a “show-stopping” problem for Anglo-Israelism as defined in Classical Armstrongism. According to the Armstrongist view, the lands of Assyria and Palestine were once densely populated by the people who now live in Western Europe. Yet the ancient genetic material recovered from Palestine is principally haplogroup J – sometimes identified as Canaanite. Absent are haplogroups R1b and R1a. If Armstrongist Anglo-Israelism is true then there should be in the excavated ancient bones of Israel and Assyria an overwhelming abundance of ancient haplogroup R DNA. And the discovery of this would revolutionize the history of the Middle East as currently understood. But such ancient material has never come to light.
In order to lend credence to their end-time message, Armstrongist organizations should lead in the search for ancient haplogroup R in Palestine and the land of ancient Assyria. And if none is ever found, they should discard the dogma of Anglo-Israelism and Assyria/Germany and its supposed relevance to end-time prophecy. Some may claim that God concealed the identities of Assyria and Israel and that is why we cannot find their genetic remnants but that identity is now important to the end-time message of Armstrongism. Further, its various denominations have publications concerning the modern identities of ancient Israel and Assyria available to the public. Concealment now seems to have lost its value. And it would seem like God would want such a discovery to be made in order to affirm the end-time message. So, the concealment argument has no traction.
In Classical Armstrongism the Assyrians/Germans were a dark theme. I recall Gerald Waterhouse luridly describing the inhumanities that the Assyrians/Germans would perpetrate against the supposed descendants of Israel during the Tribulation – a kind of holocaust for the people of the United States and Britain. This holocaust also would ensnare lukewarm members of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG). I recall the strange ideas that members of the WCG had towards a German family in a congregation I attended. Assyria/Germany cast a dark shadow on the Armstrongist landscape. But does this reflect Biblical themes?
The latter prophets are not consistently negative in their attitude towards Assyria. This can be seen in Isaiah 19:23-24. And then we have the tension between the vision of Nahum and the book of Jonah. In the former the Assyrians are excoriated and in the latter they exemplify repentance – a lesson to Israel.
Drawing on the book of Jonah, Jesus mentions the Assyrians of Nineveh as an example of repentance (Matt 12:41). He asserts that those Assyrians who repented at Jonah’s preaching will in the resurrection condemn the Jews of Jesus’ day for their unbelief. Jesus also mentions the Assyrians in a similar context in Luke 11:30. In brief, Jesus and the Prophets did not see the Assyrians as the unalloyed villains of history.
Conclusion
I further suggest that Armstrongists should spend the dollars they wish to devote to archaeology on establishing the identities of these nations, so important to their end-time message, through archaeogenetics before they fund other marginal archaeological efforts.1. To date, the ancient Assyrian genetic material is Y chromosome haplogroup J as expected from Biblical genealogy. Whereas, the modern German haplogroups are R1b and R1a. And a phylogenetic haplogroup tree will show that haplogroup R is not a mutational product of haplogroup J (see Part 1).
2. Findings related to the archaeology of Ancient Assyria (and ancient Israel) should reflect high frequencies of haplogroup R in ancient skeletons. This is because Armstrongism asserts that the land of ancient Assyria (and ancient Israel) was densely populated by people of haplogroup R heritage (identical with modern Western Europeans). So far this abundance of haplogroup R material has not been found.
This is brilliant. However, Armstrongite ministers usually sidestep detailed, factual information without addressing it at all.
ReplyDelete"Prophecy is a spiritual matter, brethren, not an archaeological matter, an historic matter, or a matter of science. Who are you going to believe regarding spiritual matters, some academic who passed through the world's educational system and probably doesn't even keep God's holy sabbath, or God's ministers? In the millennium, God's going to work it all out, and we'll see that true history, true archaeology, and true science line up just perfectly with what He has revealed to His ministers!"
Still, it will have been very worth the time and effort put into this article if it makes a handful of Armstrongites ask the questions that will lead to their personal freedom through a better more comprehensive understanding as to why British (Anglo) Israelism is simply not physically possible. Armstrongism stands or falls on BI. It was HWA's hook. WCG and splinters are the house that BI built.
Kinda reminds me of that line from the original Planet of the Apes: "There is no quarrel between faith and science... true science."
DeleteWhat Armstrongism in general fails to understand about history and archaeology is that the COGs foundational works on the subject are based on sources written over a hundred years ago, in an era where maas commumication was a fairy tale. These guys didnt have access to the piles of archaeological reports of the 20th century. They didnt have works of history from around the world freely available in their native language. And as a result, some of the writers were just plain wrong about things, even if we assume that they did the best with what they had. As a result. Armstrongism's views in these eras have become sort of a time capsule of the late 1800s.
Anonymous 12:35, Thanks for this quotation: "Prophecy is a spiritual matter, brethren, not an archaeological matter, an historic matter, or a matter of science."
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this statement is a quotation of actual words spoken by someone or if it is an illustration. What I do know is that it is profoundly false. Valid prophecy may originate in the spiritual realm, but it deals with the material realm in most cases. Whether or not the prophecies concerning Assyria can be applied to modern-day Germany is a spiritual insight with material outcomes. The argument put forth in this quotation is sophomoric and is really just an artful dodge.
The science of genetics lays to rest the issue of BI. In my view the controversy surrounding BI is resolved. There is no evidence that Palestine was once inhabited densely by Western Europeans. BI is simply false. And the ball is in the court of the Armstrongist proponents of BI. They need to roll up their sleeves and demonstrate why the results of genetic science cannot be believed. Nobody is going to believe their end-time prophecies if Armstrongists do not rise to the challenge and successfully defeat the challenge of genetics. I believe the ball will remain in their court ad infinitum.
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Neo wrote:
ReplyDelete"The dire warning above from the 1964 Plain Truth Magazine is based on the Classical Armstrongist belief that the modern Germans are the descendants of the ancient Assyrians, that the modern European people of the United States and Great Britain are the descendants of ancient Israel and the Old Testament prophecies concerning these peoples are for today."
There are at least 49 million Americans with German ancestry which blows a hole in the Armstrongist British Israelite doctrine. Add to that all of the other ethnicities other than "Israelitish" and you will find very few people here to represent this theological quagmire of bad theology.
Thank you for this post.
ReplyDeleteBI and its ‘sister’ theology,that the modern Germans are the descendants of ancient Assyria is intellectually sloppy, theologically flawed and historically, linguistically and anthropologically utterly untenable.
Professing to be wise they became fools.
The above scripture does come to mind.
Holding to these erroneous theories which will just not stand under the light of critical inquiry, leads us into a maze of tunnels in pursuit of foolishness and fables, and hence blind us to the redemptive message of Jesus Christ.
If there was a TRULY CALLED and CONVERTED PERSON on here, I'd WANT THEM to KNOW that they CAN HAVE BACK ALL of the WONDERFUL GOODNESS THEY ONCE ENJOYED when they attended THE WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD by attending THE RESTORED CHURCH OF GOD.
ReplyDeleteNah, nobody of any education likes screaming in caps.
DeleteOn more than one occasion, I've heard an LCG minister mention the popular home DNA testing kits as perfectly fine ways to learn about your ancestral heritage.
ReplyDeleteThis tells me that, despite all the bluster and bravado here, the LCG ministry must think it has a good answer as to how/why members can get their DNA tested without breaking their faith. If anyone here can speak up with that perspective, it could be most valuable to hear.
Or that they have never thought deep enough about it to notice a contradiction...
DeleteWell, 4:12, since Worldwide was total $hit, I believe I'll pass on the insanity of your suggestion.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, Restored is in its final death rattle. Otherwise, why would its so-called leader get up each morning and tell you when Jesus is coming. And then, when He doesn't, the excuse is always, "Alrighty then, but it has to be next Friday for sure, because how could things possibly continue beyond that?"
Know Jesus, know peace. But Pack doesn't, so it's "No Jesus, no peace". Think about that!
The article and posts ignore the elephant in the room. Look at Germany prior to WW1. Non stop goose stepping parades. And even after the war, all those paramilitary organizations. During WW2, they fought a two front war, with the allies struggling to defeat them.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone is to lead a war mongering United States of Europe, Germany is the best qualified nation.
Anonymous 6:24
ReplyDeleteThe Japanese, like the Germans, were warlike back then. Earlier on, the Vikings were extremely warlike. Because a nation is warlike, that doesn't make it the Assyria of prophecy.
The logical mistake you are making is called Affirming the Consequent.
Proposition 1: If it is a horse, then it has four legs.
This is a true proposition. But if we affirm the consequent, the statement becomes this:
Proposition 2: If it has four legs, then it is a horse.
Proposition 2 is false, and it is the logic error behind your statement.
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Anonymous 6:21, you should ignore Anonymous 4:12. He/she is embarrassed about the rank falsehood of Assyria as Germany and Israel as US/BC. His/her statement is a distraction intended to shift attention away from the posted article. It's just an artless dodge so you won't be exposed to the facts.
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6:24: You're wrong dude! The Russians are absolutely mercenary! Google "Russian Casualties of WWII" and get a surprise! Try 20 to 27 million military and private citizens, lost as they took on Hitler's best. It wasn't just the Russian winter that defeated Hitler!
ReplyDeleteI hate Putin, and I also hate communism, but the Ruskies did way more than their part to win WW-II.
They certainly did their part- but Stalin (who like many socialist dictators after him) treated his people like canon fodder. He didn't care about how many he lost, as long as they sacrificed. There are many similarities with the COGS.
Delete3.40 AM
DeleteSpot on. HWAs 40 year plus "we only have 3 to 5 short years left" mantra would have resulted in many people making poor choices. Especially young people regarding education. career choice, and finding a mate. How many people put off medical treatment because of this deception?
HWA would have know known that he was throwing people under the bus by using this ploy to motivate his members, but all that mattered to him was the "state," in this case, his church. If cornered on this point, he would have shrugged his shoulders, and labelled his victims "collateral damage." All while he lived in his mansion, using silver and gold dinner ware, being chauffeured in his Rolls Royce, and staying in five star hotels. A great example of sacrifice and his give way. Shame on those who put this man on a pedestal.
Anon 6:24:00 PM PST
ReplyDelete‘The article and posts ignore the elephant in the room’.
Well no.
The comments you posted should in no way lead one to the assumption or the possibility that the modern German nation could well be of the descendants of the ancient Assyrians, which I presume you are alluding to; and most certainly are not an elephant in the room. A little sloppy.
That is not evidence but purely unsubstantiated presumption. Which the above article and many others published on the blog can attest too. One could almost make a case for the English speaking nations and their allies been the descendants of Assyria given their ‘warlike’ history over the last five or so decades. Which is of course utter nonsense. Judging by past history there are numerous other nations equally ‘qualified’ to lead ‘a warmongering United States of Europe’.
It is of note that it is the king of the South who attacks the king of the North which ushers in a major conflict. Perhaps if this is the case, it is not the Europeans who are warlike but those to the South.
The results from this research confirm the presence of Semitic and Central Asian DNA among many of the leading Scottish Lowland families. The Celtic ancestry of the Scottish Highlands has not been investigated in the research, thus the red-haired, ruddy-skinned stereotype so often thought of as “Scottish” remains intact – at least for the North. However, the data clearly indicate the presence of Middle Eastern (and most likely Jewish) ancestry for the Scottish Lowlands.
ReplyDeleteThroughout this paper, images of Scots whose ancestors were found to originate in the Middle East and whose descendants now live in the Lowlands, Northern Ireland and North America have been included. Most have markedly Semitic features and many have Mediterranean coloring. Notably, it is these likely Jewish descended lineages that have supplied some of Scotland’s most renowned national heroes and leaders: Robert Bruce, King David I, King David II, Viscount Chichester, William Alexander, Bishop Forbes, James Hay and Archibald Campbell.
It is hoped that the revelation of southern Scotland’s Jewish roots will lead to a re-framing of Scottish history; one that is open to recognizing the valuable contributions made by non-Celtic peoples. We close with the symbol of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland: the Burning Bush from the Old Testament, symbolizing God’s promise to Moses regarding the future of the Hebrews: “It was not consumed”. And the Hebrews live on in Scotland.
https://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol.26-Issue6/Series-10/B2606102242.pdf
Anonymous 7:54 wrote, "It is hoped that the revelation of southern Scotland’s Jewish roots will lead to a re-framing of Scottish history"
ReplyDeleteThis quote above is greatly overstated. And Professor Hirschman's final sentence is also overstated: "And the Hebrews live on in Scotland." Go to this page in Wikipedia and look at the table: "Y-DNA haplogroups in populations of Europe." You will find that these various haplogroups are found all over Europe, but nobody is making a claim that they are Hebrews.
If you go to the entry for Scots in the table, they are overwhelmingly haplogroup R. In the particular sampling reflected there was no haplogroup J. Because of the mobility of people, there is some dispersion of other haplogroups than R among Europeans. And her use of haplogroup G as a surrogate for Hebrew ancestry is not a good approach. Haplogroup G exists among Jews, but it broadly exists in Europe because one of the past invasions of Europe consisted of haplogroup G agriculturalists. (Otzi the Swiss mummy found in the Alps and dated to about 5,000 BP is haplogroup G.) There is still some residual haplogroup G throughout Europe from this early invasion and it does not point to Jewish ancestry. The same could be said for some of the other haplogroups she uses. These are haplogroups that Jews acquired through intermixing with other peoples. They are not indicators of Jewishness.
This could get really long so just let me assure you that there is a tiny Jewish genetic signal throughout much of Europe. It does not mean that any of these nations can be remotely classed as Jewish or Hebrew or have roots in the Jewish nation. Mexicans have a small amount of Jewish ancestry that is widely dispersed in their population. Nobody is making Jewish claims for them. You see some politics and racism enter into this picture.
And there are other influences. The Phoenicians were in Europe at an early date. The Scottish Middle Eastern connection could come from Canaanites rather than Jews in some areas. Also, the Romans invaded many European nations and they had soldiers from subject nations all over the Empire. There are English people with haplogroup A from Sub-Saharan Africa thought to be from the Roman legions.
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Stalin (who like many socialist dictators after him) treated his people like canon fodder
ReplyDeleteHuh? The canon was set 1,500+ years before Stalin. Yes, Stalin liked to salt his speeches with biblical allusions so he would seem grand and could more easily dupe his people. But he didn't touch the canon. Unlike Gerald Flurry, who wants you to believe that his Malachi's Message is part of Scripture via Revelation 10, even though his "little" book is much longer than any book of the Bible, and has been edited several times. Even Stalin didn't try to edit the Bible.
In sensurround sound in a two inch wall, I was waiting for the Communist call! - Sex Pistols
ReplyDeleteInheritance isn't only through the male line Biblically.
ReplyDeleteAfter all Jesus Christ inherited the throne of David through his mother.
Questeruk
ReplyDeleteThe kind of inheritance you are talking about has nothing to do with the passing of the Y chromosome haplogroups, which is what this essay focuses on, from one generation to the next.
Unless I misunderstand, you are talking about socially determine rules of inheritance of titles, property and that kind of thing.
It is a total mystery what Jesus' Y chromosome haplogroup would have been.
I semi-agree with you. (Particularly that Jesus' Y is unknown!).
ReplyDeleteHowever lets assume Jeremiah and the daughters of Zedekiah idea is true, as an example.
There you have the only surviving children of Zedekiah the king being daughters, so they carry the inheritance from their father with them. They then journey to Ireland and marry into royalty. Whatever the Y chromosome from the person they marry may be, it is that which would then be carried in their children, but also their children would carry the inheritance of the throne of David.
So the heirs to the throne of David have then neatly potentially switched Y chromosome.
That was the point I was making - and the same principle could apply to a degree to switching of national identity.