A reader here posted this today:
Apparently, one message by Jim Franks at the Feast this year was considered really good because he said we should care and help others outside the COGs when we can. This just now occurring to them is pretty strong evidence that they have not been practicing real Christianity all these years. Earl
Imagine being a COG Leader in 2022 and not realizing it was OK to help those outside the COG whenever you can. Those who have left the church and many still in the COG's understand this and already practice it, but far too many claim that helping others is not good and takes money away from the church to spread whatever it is they claim is a gospel.
I remember when Joseph Tkach helped those outside the church that have suffered through some calamity and watched certain ordained individuals crap their self-righteous pants because he help unconverted people.
it's no owner the COG's cannot attract new members anymore.
This "article" sounds like someone who has an axe to grind and is determined to smear Jim Franks. Having heard this sermon, it leaves one to wonder what purpose the article serves. COGWA has always served others outside the church. I have my doubts that the writer of the articles serves anyone or anything outside of him/herself.
ReplyDelete‘The Living Church of God practices original Christianity and bases its beliefs on the Holy Bible ‘ so says the info to their Feastival film for 2022 on YT.
ReplyDeleteOriginal Christianity hmmmmmm…..and bases its beliefs on the Bible……. well if so, they should be having more success than they are and as for original Christianity, Living is far removed from that, which is the experience many have had.
Jim Franks comments are to be welcomed. Something we may never hear from Living.
Seeing Peter Nathan in Livings behind the work film was a blast from the pass. Looking older like us all.
The ‘Living’ Feast site here in NZ is in a very small town called Eltham. Blink and you would miss it. That this site was chosen points to expected small numbers attending. And it is relatively isolated. Numbers attending, who knows…..20, 30, 40?
1600-1700 in attendance in Jerusalem Israel with the ICEJ this year. Not as high as in previous years due to covid etc, but certainly no cog can match its numbers.
Cant speak for COGWA, but I clearly remember Flurry bitching up a storm when the Tkaches made a donation to aid victims of the Northridge quake.
ReplyDeleteSomeone needs to put something like "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" into the scriptures. Probably in the Old Testament first so the COGs find it sooner than later. If you put it in the NT, they will never find it.
ReplyDeleteIf that were in scripture, I'm sure someone would ask “So, who counts as my ‘neighbor’?”
DeleteAnd too...
ReplyDeleteGal 6 10 "So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith", was always fine but the church typically emphacized the "especially" part and never got around to the "everyone" part much, if at all. Some, like Dave Pack, took that to extremes with helping no one ouside the cult because it was a waste of money and that money could always be put to better use "especially" in the Church, which was also questionable.
As well, they might not find this even since it was in the Book of Galatians, the letter that might upset their doctrinal applecart and for which they had weak apologetics.
I get the ridicule, a century into an experiment is not the correct time to read the rules. That said, this is a good sign. I was just discussing this subject yesterday afternoon, I expect there will be a decent size fray after this feast and a larger one after next feast season. I say that because those tiny little 'wait a minute, doesn't it say...' lightbulbs are the beginnings of real questions. A lot of people who have come out have started with those little concepts. I really think it should be celebrated, as the parables allude, that a couple people are finally starting to see some truth.
ReplyDeleteMoney for preaching the gospel is not supposed to be diverted for other causes. That is theft. If you want to give, give your own money, not God's money.
ReplyDelete7:31
DeleteTo paraphrase a line from the classic 1956 The Ten Commandments in reply: “What money God spends on Himself will surely not go wasted in the hands of ordinary people.”
replying to 7:31 … makes me wonder if preaching the gospel goes beyond giving $ to an organization, which, not to mention some of their teachings are incorrect and taken straight from Bullingers. HWA did not have all teachings directly revealed to him from God. We need to consider there is no physical levitical temple to give tithes to, and no, the ministry is not the levitcal priesthood. They are guides, not levites, but how many actual hirelings have entered the ranks. Considering “ when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’ 46These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25
Delete(noting the word “Me”)
The stupidity of people on here is beyond belief.
ReplyDeleteIt is good in a way, Seth. But, it is also good to point out that this seems to just now occur to them. This belief has been inculcated into most of Christianity from the 1st century even if they/we don’t practice it like we should. The COGS have found their niche by finding ways to be different than other Christians. It’s important to point out the present and historic flaws of the COGs to help those lightbulbs go off.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately some will respond with ad hominem as did the anonymous first poster who does not give a rebuttal with any examples and just uses phrases like “axe to grind”, “desire to smear Jim Franks”, and such. I’m sure Jim Franks is as good as the next guy, but as the leader and representative of Cogwa his words and “new ideas” are legitimately critiqued.
As it was then, so it is now. The Jewish Christians of the first centuries AD ended up persecuted, ostracized from the Temple, and shunned by their families. Peter had to abandon his position of leadership because of all the harassment. As a group, they faded and took a back seat to the gentile Christians in Paul's churches, who believed that you did not need to become Jewish first to be Christian. Most people of today do not realize the immensity of the edict of the first Jerusalem Council regarding circumcision. They also do not understand the importance of the mathematically calculated calendar which superseded the observational calendar created on a daily basis by the priests and scribes. It is amazing to me that someone who spent 6 months in a library would be envisioned as wiser that those who were on the various scenes at the time if events and wrote history.
ReplyDeleteMore and more, people of today from one mindset have given themselves over to fairy tales, fables, and authoritarianism. Strangely, this base has passed by the ACOGs, providing no benefits whatsoever, in spite of similar mindsets. Jewish Christians of today find themselves in the same diminishing predicament as their counterparts in the early church.
Dennis, my only quarrel with your comments is, Dave Pack doesn't even help anybody WITHIN RCG! Except himself. And the horses.
ReplyDeleteMany on this forum posting articles like the one above is just grasping at straws, trying to bring everyone's name down in mud. If you post something like this, make sure you have proof that you think this is a new concept. It is not new, COGWA is one of the few groups that have always helped anywhere when needed. Look into it. They have donated time, money, and other resources to places in the US, as well as the rest of the world. I would like to know how many of the naysayers actually do the same thing? How many of you go and donate your time...like cleaning up after a hurricane, money, or resources as going to Africa and doing dental work to villagers? Everyone I know are so incredibly honored to be able to help in any way they can. It is more than many people I know elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteI have found it Dennis:)
ReplyDeleteLev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Desperate times NO2HWA? Apparently someone somewhere remarked Frank's said a possible statement of recomending doing good to others.... and you find fault with that....
ReplyDeleteIt’s that the membership thought it was so good to hear. As in, it was not what was typically heard. This should be common place. The COGs are and have been a very insular group which is counter to Christian practice. Surely you see why this is worth commenting on.
DeleteDennis, my only quarrel with your comments is, Dave Pack doesn't even help anybody WITHIN RCG! Except himself. And the horses.
ReplyDeleteAnon 7:33:00 AM PDT
ReplyDelete'The stupidity of people on here is beyond belief'.
Ok what is the problem?
Surely this post places you squarely in that category.
Throwing out fiippant comments such as yours without clearly articulating your concerns is sloppy at best and lazy intellectually.
I am at a COGWA Feast site and from day one, we have been collecting food and non food items for two local organizations who are not related in any way to the Church. The amount of stuff collected is staggering.
ReplyDeleteUCG Gatlinburg did this too
DeleteI was very happy to hear about that.
DeleteFirstly, this has only been a thing for a handful of years. Secondly, it is generally the members doing the contributing. Thirdly, it is mostly confined to an annual collection of food that amounts to a few dollars per
ReplyDeleteperson while spending thousands during the Feast. Fourthly, it is a step in the right direction, but it is not staggering for groups of hundreds to a thousand people and to think so supports the assertion that giving is not a traditional practice in cogwa. Anyone associated with the cogs knows this.
As one who attends COGWA, it’s no great secret that the churches of God do not focus on helping those outside of their group beyond the website and magazine. The general thought is that there isn’t much that can be done in a fallen world and only the Return of Christ will make any difference. This concept is a failing, but it can improve.
ReplyDeleteI am so puzzled why those 1) in any COGs are saying anything negative...because if you aren't giving or pushing for change to help the world, then you are part of the problem. and 2) those who are just here to put down anything in the Cogs, how are you doing better? Oh wait, I forgot those who are negative are so self righteous, they are spending all of their free time and all of their money helping the poor and needy of this world. I think not, they are just here to say put down any attempt of the Cogs are doing.
ReplyDeleteJim Franks lacks any credibility. He is one of the worst of the worst, along with Horchak and the now-dead Pinelli. This man has made a fortune by stoking division and promoting lies. Everything he says has to be viewed through the lens of what's in it for him.
ReplyDeleteOh, and lest I forget, I can remember Fred Kellers frequently defending the "pay and pray" mentality of WCG and pre-2010 UCG (when UCG was run by the same people who now run COGWA). For those who don't know what I'm talking about, "pay and pray" was a way to express how church members should pay their tithes, pray about all of their concerns, and take no action to resolve said concerns either inside or outside the church. So for those of you who say a leader advocating to help people outside of the church who need help is nothing new, I say you are full of crap and obviously were never a member of WCG.
ReplyDeleteTo 4.32.00...My local COGWA congregation has been collecting for a local food bank since I've been attending. Before you assume, you need to do a little digging. As far as the other groups, I do not know, but I make no assumptions.
ReplyDeleteThat’s good that the members of your congregation have decided to do that. The original post was based on the reaction to the novelty of what should be the established concept of helping others outside your faith.
DeleteAnd though most with the cog exclusivist mindset will not care, I have seen enough of the actions of Christians outside the COGS to know that the willingness and level/amount of help and love they show to those in need far exceeds anything the COGs have done. It means something whether the cogs want to believe it or not, food shelf not withstanding.
It's all well and good to make it a one way thing by assisting outsiders, but spreading the gospel involves two way communication, like having an open door policy with your church so that "outsiders" can visit your services.
ReplyDeleteDoes any ACOG, anywhere on the face of the earth allow people from outside of their groups to come into their services without being subjected to extreme screening? Did Jesus have the disciples control those who would listen?
It's nice that Franks and company have gotten rid of the "outward" muzzle, but they still have the "incoming" muzzle in place. Lighten up and open up, guys! Don't be like Dave Pack with the police at the entrance of your open house!
UCG has an open door policy. I talked to a UCG pastor yesterday.
DeleteThese are new and limited concepts though for UCG. The fact they are new while being fundamental to the Christian faith says something about the foundation of the COGs and WCG.
DeletePerhaps they are, but I would prefer that faulty churches be fixed rather than burned down.
DeleteIsn’t grace that leads to repentance a major Christian theme?
The worldwide descended churches have a lot of people in them who are seeking God. We ought to celebrate every step towards Him they take instead of judging them for their past.
Anon12:19,
DeleteI’m glad they are seeing the light of this. The point is not to judge the individuals, but rather to critique a belief system that could veil this fundamental Christian teaching from them for so long. When a group like the COGS claims they have “the Truth” and other supposed Christians do not, then every false belief of the COGs will and must be pointed out.
@ Anon 5:22 pm
ReplyDeleteYes, the UCG and Church of God International do have an open door policy as I've attended services at both churches without seeing a minister first. I was welcomed at both churches. I cannot speak for other churches but I did not witness any pre-screening at either of these two churches as they welcomed all visitors.