Church of God history wants you to be on the far left of the evaluation as a worthless worm while the far right is the lofty goals that only the ministry can claim to be. Bob Thiel would score a 10 on each of these.
Church of God history wants you to be on the far left of the evaluation as a worthless worm while the far right is the lofty goals that only the ministry can claim to be. Bob Thiel would score a 10 on each of these.
Rebellious splinter ministers are also invited to fill in Mr Pack's detailed questionaire to see if they might be considered worthy to rejoin the dynamic one true church.
ReplyDeleteHere's a few of my personal favorite points from Dave Pack's litmus test for RCG ministry Zombies to be that are particularly offensive and ill informed.
ReplyDelete(3) Established Doctrine and Tradition
In what doctrines or traditions do you believe Mr. Armstrong “got it wrong”? (Include all areas—be specific.)
(4) Did you actively resist false doctrine in your ministry?—or give safe sermons where you disagreed? (Be specific.)
6) Why should you still be considered for the ministry in God’s Church?
Why should God’s flock ever again be entrusted to your care?
7) "Are you prepared to re-win the trust of the SS and of Berlin?" Personally I'd not want to be trusted by Dave because it would mean I was dead inside.
(9) Do you now believe again that Christ works solely through one unified organization?
(10) In light of government(s) you followed, how do you see God’s government today?
(15) Are you willing to temporarily or permanently become an associate pastor?
(16) Are you willing to be excluded from the ministry until you requalify?
(18) If your ordination(s) is(are) invalid, are you interested in being re-trained for Christ’s true
ministry?
(19) Do you believe ministers should be able to voice opinions to others about:
Where Headquarters is “wrong”?
What Mr. Armstrong taught/said/did “wrong”?
What Mr. Pack teaches/says/does “wrong”?
Where your boss is “wrong” or harsh, etc.?
Where you disagree doctrinally?
(20) Do you consider yourself as having been (rate yourself from 5 being best to 0 being worst):
Weak
Cowardly
Slothful
Covetous
Confused
Compromising
Foolish
Political (And did you ever “run for office” in a splinter?)
Heretical
Deceitful
Easily deceived
Betrayed your calling
(22) What do you consider to be your ministerial rank?
(23) Are you prepared to dedicate the rest of your life to serving God’s flock and fixing completely
(24) In light of how you once saw Mr. Armstrong, do you still recognize the fruits of a true apostle when you see one?
(25) Describe your spiritual condition today. (Also, rate your temperature from 0-10, with 10 the highest.)
(26) What 5 biggest lessons did you learn from and since the apostasy? (In order of importance.)
(29) Having now long abandoned many doctrines you said you would never leave, how would you convince Headquarters that this time you “mean it” if you intend to now “hold fast” (Rev. 3:11)?
(31) Are you prepared to spend a full year (or more) catching up with all you must unlearn, relearn, and learn new?
(33) How would you prove that you are still Spirit-led?—or were ever Spirit-led?
(35) What did you do after reading the article “God’s People Back Together—SOON!”?
These are truly some of the sickest people on planet earth. What will it take for folks stuck in these heretical groups to get out and come to Jesus? If the past 2 weeks hasn't done for them, I give up. They have chosen lies, false doctrines and gravely false men over God and they will suffer the eternal price for it.
ReplyDeletePlease, please members in these groups, please please read your Bibles ON YOUR OWN for one month, especially Galatians, Romans and Hebrews. Just read the words and take them for there plain sense meaning. The words mean what the words say and CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING! And Dave, John O...you know where you can stick your survey.
There is benefit in self evaluation and writing down goals, and measuring success in various efforts in a quantifiable metric of some sorts, and to review progress and effort on a regular basis.
ReplyDeleteNearly every "success teacher" in the secular world would agree to that.
The problem with the survey is that it diminishes the concept of "enlightened self interest". For instance, contentious or peacemaker as choices. If bull crud sin or incompetentcy is happening in a church, it is a righteous and enlightened thing to be contentious about it!
Doctrinally "unstable" ?? So if one does not believe that Pack, or Thiel, Flurry, Meredith , Armstrongs , et al, are not Gods elite chosen one on the planet, does that mean you are "unstable" or does that mean that you are doctrinally sound??
So it is easy to conclude that this "evaluation form" is not designed for self enlightenment , but in an underhanded way is designed to produce conformity to an outside standard and pressure and not an internal insight. I believe that ANYTHING that is produced by pressure, or dominance, no matter how subtle, never becomes a permanent character fixture with people. True enlightenment is demonstrated by who you are , and what you think when no one is looking. All the rest is simply mask wearing, politicing and window dressing, and I have seen a lot of that in the COG movement and all other human organizations over the years, from the top to bottom.
How about, "Frankly, Mr. Pack, I am glad that you have this questionnaire. It has made me realize all of the reasons why I no longer have any desire to be part of the ministry. Why don't you take this questionnaire and shove it up your a-double (censored)?"
ReplyDeleteAlso, (separate comment), I seem to remember reading several years ago about a minister in LCG who was bitten by spiders and had actually died. Wasn't that John Ogwyn?
Such lists channel members minds down certain groves. And they ignore traits that churches aren't fond of such are independent thinking, assertiveness and respect for rights. These lists need to be taken with a grain of salt.
ReplyDeleteCould even Mr Waterhouse qualify to serve under our new end-time Apostle?
ReplyDeleteHe'd have to spend 12 months study getting up-to-speed on all the new truth.
One minute Waterhouse is loyal Herbie bootlicker then he switches instantly to being a Tkach booster! (that was a miscalculation)
ReplyDeleteI could see Waterhouse switching to being a Pack booster if that's what it took to get paid: "no-ew God needed a champi'n swimma' to fight the riptide of dissent.."
Waterhouse was widely considered to be somewhat of a joke already by the mid-'70s. He certainly had a fertile imagination, and was a source of inspiration to people of a certain mentality, so therefore had a useful place in the scam. There was no shortage of gushing ministers back in the day, who blatantly ingratiated themselves with their boss, while others mastered the technique of walking on egg shells, just to get along.
ReplyDeleteHWA had a powerful team assembled, up until it began to crumble and fall apart. His successors have picked up some of the pieces, but nobody has been able to assemble an effective machine of equal value, capable of striking a sustained and common chord with people of the above mentioned mentality. Although some of these successors are talented, much of the reason for their undoing is that most people by this point in time are familiar with false prophets and are exhausted with false prophecy. It has even run its course with the Evangelicals, although it had its moment in the sun with the "Left Behind" books and series. HWA had brought a certain level of sophistication to false prophecy, but once it met its inevitable failure and he reinvented himself as an "ambassador for peace without portfolio, the movement he founded was pretty much over. It would have died a slow death, but then, upon HWA's passing the Tkaches attempted to reform it. In a perverse sort of way, this reenergized many members by forcing them to defend the original beliefs and to continue the worn out litany of false prophecies. The two things, beliefs and prophecy are inexorably linked, after all. Tkach had the same effect as the proverbial nagging relative who won't shut up about Aunt Minnie's smoking habit. Aunt Minnie might have quit on her own, but the nagging only made her defiant!
And here we are, with the best seats in the house watching it all go down! A little too slow for some of us, but the lame pathologies of the main actors appear to be irreversibly terminal at this point. This is a structure which abhors new talent, new people from outside who may have the keys required to revive it all, but have not been long term participants and never graduated from "God's West Point", Embarrassing College. When the grey hairs whose continued influence keeps their children in line have all died off, and as the ridiculous prophecies continue to fail, we will most likely witness the final mass exodus. As Hendrix quipped in "Red House", "That's alright, I still have my guitar!"