Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders

Monday, June 26, 2023

Sabbath and the International Dateline Problem


 

From a reader:

As a comment to your posting on the Sabbath, I tried to post this comment. But it was too long to be accepted. Nonetheless, Armstrongites in the Western Hemisphere celebrate the Sabbath on the biblical 1st day of the week here, as I tried to explain:

 

 

Armstrongism and its requiring, for salvation, 7th-day Sabbath observance, is simply wrong; at least in the Western Hemisphere. Churches requiring strict observance of the 7th-day Sabbath in the Western Hemisphere (and in Arctic regions) have a great problem they conveniently never address or resolve, because it disqualifies all of their doctrines based on Sabbath-keeping.

 

How could Sabbath-keeping in the Western Hemisphere be wrong? The seventh day of each week, by scriptural command (at least to Israelites in ancient times), was to be diligently kept. But, among others, one big problem occurred; in 1492. Columbus found the New World, and in subsequent years it was settled and occupied by people from the Old World. That’s the problem.

 

Does the Sabbath-keeping command apply worldwide, to everyone, in all times, in all places? Or, ony to the peoples of the Middle East and the rest of the Old World? Please examine the problem.

 

The problem? The world is a globe, not a flat earth. Although it appears that the sun “rises” in the east each morning and “sets” in the west each evening (except in polar areas), the sun actually doesn’t move. The earth does; it revolves 360 degrees each day. So, to keep track of days, so that they always retain their proper names (Sunday is each week’s Day One; Saturday is Day Seven), there must be, necessarily, somewhere on the globe an “International Dateline.”

 

That’s the problem, which negates the commonly-perceived 7th-day Sabbath in the Western Hemisphere. To accommodate the convenience of commercial interests, the International Dateline, many years ago, was established in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

 

But, Biblically, the dateline, if there is to be one, so that we can know which is the actual 7th day of each week, needs to be in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, not the Pacific. There is absolutely no Biblical justification for the dateline to transect the Pacific, for the following reasons.

 

It must be presumed that the weekdays and the Sabbaths, although not observed, followed the humans who survived The Flood and safely exited the Ark after it landed on Mt. Ararat, as they and their descendants then dispersed across the globe. Every 7th day, without interruption, was the Sabbath, for everyone, everywhere. Can anyone contest the fact that the Sabbath, even though unobserved, went with all peoples, wherever they settled, without gaining or losing even a day, anywhere?

 

Then, in 1492 Columbus landed in the New World. And there were people already living here. “Indians” he thought. Nope, Native Americans, thousands of miles distant from India — because the earth is a globe, with the Western Hemisphere having a calendar different from the one in Spain. 

 

Now none of the Native Americans had a seven-day week that they followed. They didn’t know or care about a Saturday or a Sunday. But their most distant ancestors, through hundreds of generations, after safely leaving the Ark, had the sequence of weekly days necessarily follow them; even if they didn’t know or observe them.

 

That’s the crux of the matter. Even though unknown and unobserved, the 7th-day Sabbath went with the humans from the landing of the Ark all the way to the New World. Not a day could have been gained or lost. The new day started at sundown each day; exactly as described and defined in Scripture. But, the world is a spherical globe. When humans came across from Asia to settle the Western Hemisphere, there was no International Dateline. They never changed the counting of weekly days when they landed here. The weekly Sabbath, even though unknown and unobserved, began at sundown at the end of the 6th day, each “Friday.”

 

That’s the problem. Which Friday, in, say, 1492, or even today, is the biblically correct one? Fact is, in 1492 Columbus’s Friday was the Native American’s Saturday. Because the Western Hemisphere was already settled with humans, descended from original ancestors from the Middle East, or Mt. Ararat, the Sabbath went with them, with never the gain or loss of a day. The sundown that signaled the start of the Sabbath was their “Friday” — which was Columbus’s “Saturday.”

 

It’s very clear, Biblically, as determined by the historical migrations of humans, both to the east and west of Mt. Ararat or the Garden of Eden, that the International Dateline must be placed in the mid-Atlantic Ocean, accurately dividing the Old World from the New World. In the Americas, the observance of the 7th day Sabbath starting at sundown on today’s Friday is off by a day. Biblically, people and churches trying to observe a 7th-day Sabbath starting on the calendar’s Friday evening are actually observing a Biblical 1st-day Sabbath. Biblically, historically, the dateline must be in the Atlantic, not the Pacific. 

 

When I was a member worshiping in the Worldwide Church of God, because I had training in geography and perceived the dateline problem, I asked my local pastor about it. Sure seemed that we were meeting on the wrong Biblical day. His response? “Well, we simply follow the modern calendar and accept the International Dateline where it has been placed.”

 

And, that was the problem. They followed the modern calendar and observed the International Dateline. But that’s not Biblical. Because the 7th-day Sabbath went with all peoples from their ancient origins in the Old World, people observing what they think is the 7th-day Sabbath on today’s calendars in the New World are in error. They are off by a day. If Sabbath-keeping is a pre-condition to salvation, they are condemned. In the New World they’ve been erroneously keeping it on a Biblical, historical 1st day. 

 

Then, of course, is the problem of people living above the Arctic Circle. Examples are the Inuit (“Eskimo”) peoples and the Sami, of northern Europe. Above the Arctic Circle, for varying periods of time each year the sun never sets or rises within 24-hour periods. Biblically, if a new  “day” is started by the sun’s setting, many “days” of the year in the Arctic can be several months long. If 7th-day Sabbath-keeping is a prerequisite for salvation, people living above the Arctic Circle are geographically condemned.  

 

Sorry, Armstrongists in the New World, you’ve been keeping the Sabbath in this half of the globe on the real 1st-day of each Biblical week, modern calendars and the International Dateline notwithstanding. Seems, then, that if proper 7th-day Sabbath-keeping is a pre-condition of salvation, you are condemned, doesn’t it?

 

OR, Biblically, the Sabbath commend was for a specific people, for a specific period of time; in a specific region, until Christ fulfilled the Law for all who believe.

 

58 comments:

  1. So if you are in orbit , and you circle the Earth every 90 minutes, and thus seven sunsets in a matter of every 10 hours, how would you observe the Sabbath, or what if you were on a colony on Mars.

    In the end, God knows your heart and intention. There are always "wiggle weasel" issues that people can use to try and avoid keeping ANY of the 10 Commandments.

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  2. Your same type of arguments could be used against the Catholics and Protestants who observe Sunday and want to legally enforce its observance. Have you told them?

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  3. The answer to that wall of words is simple.

    Yes, the Sabbath is an absolute command. However, "do the best you can with what you know" is also an absolute command, otherwise Armstrongists are either all condemned before the Monday Pentecost change or afterward. Today's Armstrongists away from Jerusalem don't keep the Jerusalem Sabbath, but do keep a worldwide seventh-day Sabbath anchored to that seventh-day Sabbath.

    As for the people living so far north? Armstrongism has no problem with the idea that none of those people are called until the Millennium, and we don't know whether anyone will even be living so far north during the Millennium. Perhaps that's also true of people living along the IDL and missing the true Sabbath by a day.

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  4. Yes, those who migrated East to the New World (Americas) will have a sabbath a full day ahead of those who migrated west to the New World. Had not considered it that way.

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  5. Good comment Tonto. I was also thinking how much could be dismissed using the example of the "thief" on the cross:

    -no need for days of worship at all

    -baptism has no value

    -the Lord's supper is a waste of time

    -no need for Bible study

    -growing in grace and truth is irrelevant

    Gotta love human reasoning!

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  6. The holy days are also upside down in the Southern Hemisphere as compared to the seasons they portray. It seems perfectly obvious that God created a culture designed specifically for the people He called His own, living in the covenant lands in Israel during the times of the first and second temples.

    If Herbert W. Armstrong had the primacy of Peter to be able to bind how these things should be treated today, then the early church leaders had the authority to make the changes which evolved into the Universal (or Catholic) Church of God.

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  7. So, intent matters then? If someone is “trying” to keep the Sabbath and bases their observance on what a man- made calendar says, then that makes them a proper Sabbath- keeping Christian? Intent should matter, but with Armstrongists it never has for mainstream Christians and their beliefs. “They may be sincere, but sincerely WRONG!” was a common statement from Armstrongists condemning “ignorant” Christians. I guess you could start saying the same thing about those who try to keep the correct 7th day Sabbath. It just shows how having our Sabbath rest in Christ solves the issue.

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  8. To Anon @10:42. The Sabbath is nowhere mentioned or even hinted at as a New Testament commandment for Christians. Please give us Christians chapter and verse for that. This is precisely what got the Apostle Paul almost hysterical in his severe condemnation of the Judaizers. Why do you think they were called Judaizers? He said nobody, Jew or Gentile, under the NC is obligated to keep the Sabbath. Each to his own, but each convinced in his own mind that what he does is pleasing to God. No more ceremonial feasts, holy days or the Sabbath. They were nothing but a shadow that pointed to the reality, which is Jesus. That's why Paul also said he feared for some who wanted to go backwards toward the shadow (holy day, feast day, law keeping etc) and not understanding that EVERYTHING changed when Jesus came.

    As for round earth, northern/southern hemisphere sabbath issues, fake prophet Ellen White of 7th day Adventist lore, was asked about this very thing. Someone said, I live in Alaska. How do I keep the Sabbath? Her reply...there are better places to live. Well, thanks for that Ellen! Always the Biblical genius :-)

    But now. Those two words are some of the most important in all of Scripture. But now that Faith (Jesus) has come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster (the law). Not to mention the fact that the Gentiles were never under the law in the first place. Rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ, in our stead. No schoolmaster needed. He is a perfect Savior and has accomplished everything necessary to save all those who believe and put their faith in Him. I rest in that, not a day I was never told to keep in the first place.

    Finally, in eternity future, we will worship God everyday. It is prophesied in the Old Testament that we will come to worship Him FROM ONE SABBATH TO THE NEXT, meaning 7 days, inclusively and continuously. From Sat to Sat equals 7 or 8 days, depending how you reckon time. Additionally, in Revelation 21 God says there will be no Sun or moon in eternity because He will be our light. So how would you reckon the Sabbath or the months?

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  9. If I were a COGLodyte, I'd be asking myself why should the IDL be in the Atlantic, breaking up Israel? Jerusalem and London would be on the same day, but the USA would be on a different day. COG members probably believe that God actually inspired the placement of the IDL in the Pacific.

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  10. https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2023/06/you-would-dosay-anything-to-avoid.html

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  11. anon1042,

    Your axiom "do the best with what you know" covers Sunday going Christians. If you believe that Jesus is your Savior you will be saved and at that point you "do the best with what you know".

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  12. Tonto,

    Sunday going Christians intend to please God. God knows their heart just as He knows those that believe their partial law keeping is enough. Once one professes faith in God and in CHrist's sacrifice, then it simply comes to their heart and intention and God knows that. And, the Sabbath is not the measuring stick...the measuring stick is belief.

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  13. Ephraim established the Prime Meridian at Greenwich, England. The rest of the world assented to this, which by definition put the IDL where it is. If you want to drum up a controversy, you can do so about the way some nations have taken liberties with the IDL and moved the line around their countries arbitrarily. But the current Pacific Ocean IDL is a natural consequence of having Greenwich instead of Jerusalem as the Prime Meridian, which is fully in accord with ACOG BI sensibilities.

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  14. Your axiom "do the best with what you know" covers Sunday going Christians. If you believe that Jesus is your Savior you will be saved and at that point you "do the best with what you know".

    The demons believe, but they aren't saved. You can do all the works you want, but if God hasn't called you in this age it makes no difference to your salvation. Many well-meaning Sunday-keepers will come up for the White Throne Judgment and start keeping the seventh day Sabbath.

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  15. BP8,

    I gather it doesn't make human sense to you that Christ could say the thief on the cross was saved.

    It may just be that you are placing our Savior into your human reasoning box.

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  16. Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping were both based on the flat earth geology. The Bible uses flat earth geology. That's why Satan could show Jesus all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain top.

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    Replies
    1. 26/6 2:45PM
      Aside from the flat earth debate I was of the view that the devil showed Christ all the kingdoms of the world “in a moment of time” ie instantly.

      Does that mean he showed Him all the countries that existed at that time or did he project a false vision of even future kingdoms according to his own distorted worldview? IDK, but considering what the Bible reveals of the devil whatever he showed Him it was rightfully rejected seeing everything that comes from the devil is inherently untrustworthy and inevitably fatal (John 8:44).

      Delete
  17. The date line is just as much a problem for Sunday keepers as Sabbath keepers. It's not a valid argument in the Saturday versus Sunday controversy.

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  18. If Saturday is the wrong day, we should be keeping Friday so that we don't worship the Sun god.

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  19. Anon232,

    Misuse of James 2:19. The demons assuredly do not believe that Jesus is their Savior. That is the belief necessary.

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  20. This is a crazy article. It would of course mean that every dedicated Sunday keeper in the entire American continent is also keeping the wrong day too.

    Maybe add a bit of sense to this. First there has to be a date line of some sort, somewhere, however you keep days, or even just to know what day it is.

    The date line was originally set to be basically 180 degrees from Greenwich, UK, but allowed some variation so the line never cut through land.

    God set Jerusalem as the centre, ultimately of the world. So a date line 180 degrees from Jerusalem would give a similar picture. It would also mean that everywhere in the world would share at least 12 hours of the Sabbath with Jerusalem.

    The Jews, who set the calendar, have four possible ways of designating the date line ( the halakhic date line), all of which in practise run through the Pacific, including the 180 degrees from Jerusalem version. The Jews have recognised that something needed to be recognised on this issue for at least 800 years!

    The idea of an Atlantic date line would seem to be the idea of the author, based on basically nothing.

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  21. Sigh. It used to be that the people being Pharisaical about Sabbath-keeping were the ones demanding everyone observe the Sabbath according to their rules. Now instead, we've got Pharisees telling us that Sabbath keeping is futile because of their imagined nonsense rules.

    The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Spend the Sabbath in communion with our God and creator — that's the weightier matter of the Sabbath commandment. Quibbling over international datelines (by either pro- or anti-Sabbath folks—I've seen both now) does nothing to bring us to God or truth or bearing fruits of righteousness.

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  22. Tonto said...
    So if you are in orbit , and you circle the Earth every 90 minutes, and thus seven sunsets in a matter of every 10 hours, how would you observe the Sabbath, or what if you were on a colony on Mars.

    There have been a number of Jewish Astronauts. Judith Resnik on her first mission lit electronic Shabbat candles according to the time in Houston, which was her home, and also the location of Mission Control. She later died in the Space Shuttle 'Challenger'

    Israeli astronaut Ilan Ramon, who flew in the fatal space shuttle 'Columbia', had consulted with Rabbis, and was planning to observe the Sabbath according to the time of his last residence, Cape Canaveral.

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  23. 244
    Read my post again. I said nothing about whether the thief was saved or even questioned it. I was merely pointing out the fallacy of human reasoning and where it can go when left unchecked.

    Sorry that went over your head!

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  24. Anon @ 2:32. May we please have the chapter and verse for "Sunday keepers",coming up at the White Throne Judgement and then going on to keep the Sabbath? That is frankly, a disgraceful slur. It may be in the Clear Word "Bible"(SDAs) or the JWs "Bible", but not in any actual Bible.

    First of all, if you come up in the White Throne Judgement, it's game over. That is for unbelievers, NOT believers. Secondly, how will anyone keep the sabbath or any monthly/yearly feast when, immediately following the WTJ, God will remake the Heavens and Earth WITHOUT SUN OR MOON. In Galatians 4:8-11 Paul addresses the debate about keeping the Sabbath, etc. He writes in vs 9-11, " Now that you have come to know God, or rather have been known by Him, how can you return to those worthless, powerless natural elements to which you seem willing to enslave yourselves again? You even go so far as to keep the ceremonial observance of days and months, seasons and years!" I fear for you, that all my efforts have been in vain."

    Lastly, why do think Jesus Himself said "Come unto Me, all who are weary and find life burdensome and I will give you REST" Matthew 11:28-30? We are to rest from our labors to earn our way into a right relationship with God. Sabbath keeping, on its own, is not salvivic, but for those who believe you have to keep the sabbath and the law for your salvation are twice cursed by the Apostle Paul in Galatians 3:10-14. He further stated those people have severed themselves from Jesus and fallen from God's favor. Just read the Book of Galatians. It is as plain as language gets.

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  25. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, no problem. Do this on certain days: BIG PROBLEM?

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  26. DW said "First of all, if you come up in the White Throne Judgement, it's game over. That is for unbelievers, NOT believers. Secondly, how will anyone keep the sabbath or any monthly/yearly feast when, immediately following the WTJ, God will remake the Heavens and Earth WITHOUT SUN OR MOON. "

    Well said!

    Now watch the heads explode and say yes the sabbath will be kept.

    It won't.

    There is no need for it.

    Totally useless.

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  27. Crap! How are we supposed to go surfing in the Kingdom if there is no moon? No moon means game over for "surf's up!"

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  28. "Crap! How are we supposed to go surfing in the Kingdom if there is no moon? No moon means game over for "surf's up!""

    There won't be any making out in a convertible on the mountainside looking down at the city lights! Crap!

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  29. The thief on the cross went to Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) where Abraham, Moses, David, and Joseph already were until Christ
    descended into hell and took back the keys to hell, death, & the grave. The counterfeit is Purgatory (earning your way, buying your way).
    Once Christ poured out His blood on the Mercy Seat in Heaven, Paradise/Abraham's Bosom was emptied. We are made up of 3 parts - body, soul (mind, will, & emotions) and spirit --so the spirit & soul leave while the physical body & brain end up dead in the ground. Someday we will be glorified all parts coming back together.

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  30. Abraham was never a Sabbath keeper. Faith and faith alone. I rest in good company.

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  31. Cheer up crap guys, it's only the city that doesn't need the sun or moon, not the rest of the globe. The verse doesn't say the sun and moon are no more.

    Rev 21:23 The city had no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gave it light, and its lamp was the Lamb.

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  32. Some have commented that the same argument applies for Sunday as for Saturday, but this is not in any way troubling to those that go to church on Sunday because they are not observant due to Law and strict rules.

    Anon331, I don't think that you can accurately describe those that are showing flaws in the law outside of israel as pharisaical. I see what you are saying, but those claiming the New covenant rather than Sinai Law are just looking at the details that reveal problems with an adherence to a strict Sinai Law on a universal scale.



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  33. 620, 605: So you think the sabbath is not in the groupings mentioned in Gen 26:5? Wouldn't bet on it.

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  34. Well, anon614, that city is New Jerusalem and it has a volume almost exactly half of the moon.
    It is 1380 miles high and 1380 miles long and 1380 wide, a perfect cube as the city.

    I presume that because it is a city it will have many levels. I once did the math and I think every person that ever lived would be able to have around 50 acres and a "sky" of 100 ft. high.

    That would allow for a lot of mansions. The sun would not be able to light that kind of space with maybe 65,000 levels of 100 ft. Only the Glory of God could possibly do that. The mighty city is half the volume of the moon. It's glory obscures the moon and the Light of the Lord makes the sun obsolete.

    Just some considerations as you consider the significance/insignificance of the sun and moon once the New Jerusalem arrives.

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  35. 647,
    I can list charges, statutes, and commandments that Abraham obeyed (He came out of Ur, He followed the Lord, he was circumcised and made it a statute for his progeny, etc.

    The Bible never mentions Abraham observing the sabbath. If it is necessary for salvation why was it never mentioned with regard to Abraham?

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  36. It is not in the grouping. Abraham never kept the Sabbath. The law was not even established that set Israel apart at that time. Plus, there is NO PROFF that Adam and Even even kept it.

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  37. Anonymous at 6:05 PM said...“Abraham was never a Sabbath keeper. Faith and faith alone. I rest in good company.”

    “And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws” (Genesis 12:4-5, KJV).

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  38. Anonymous at 7:38 PM said...“Plus, there is NO PROFF that Adam and Even even kept it.”

    Do you think that Adam was out mowing the lawn in the Garden of Eden while God was resting in a hammock on the weekly Sabbath that He had just made?

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  39. Satan's false prophets Gerald Flurry and David Pack try hard to make the Sabbath look bad. They turn it into a time to be lied to, lied about, robbed, abused, and deprived of rest.

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  40. "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws".

    The 10 commandments were not even created at this point. Abraham did not keep any of them. It is an impossibility. They were given much later to set Israel apart from the rest of the world on their journey out of Egypt. Even though they were given to Israel they never kept them properly along with the rest of the law, just as no one in the COG keeps them and the rest law today. COG and members pick and choose which ones they want to keep as they accuse nonCOG Christians of picking and choosing what they want to keep. The difference is Christians follow Jesus and the COG follows the law as its god.

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  41. Flogging a dead horse AGAIN !!!! Did this post author write the infamous 2011 UCG white paper on sabbath keeping in the antarctic????????????

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  42. Anon 738

    The sabbath was made (when?) for man (Mark 2) but not for Adam and Abraham?

    The thief wasn't baptised so nobody needs to be baptized??

    Both statements represent pure ignorant human reasoning!

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  43. Anonymous at 10:36 PM said...“The 10 commandments were not even created at this point. Abraham did not keep any of them. It is an impossibility.”

    So, do you think that Abraham routinely did the following things?:

    1. Worshipped other gods.

    2. Made and worshipped idols.

    3. Misused God's name.

    4. Worked on the Sabbath.

    5. Dishonored his parents.

    6. Murdered people.

    7. Committed adultery.

    8. Stole.

    9. Gave false testimony.

    10. Coveted.

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  44. Judaism is tied to the Middle East. It is a religion for a certain group of people, at a certain time, living in a certain location. That location is Jerusalem, where God placed his name. But the Jews became dispsersed throughout much of the world. This has forced them to make decisions about Sabbath keeping.

    In my view, the Sabbath is whatever the seventh day is in Jeruasalem as tracked through history by the Jews. The international dateline is just a convention. The new day begins is at sunset in Jerusalem. The new day does not start in the middle of the Pacific or the Atlantic.

    Every place that Jews went in the Diaspora, there was a sunset. So this is a workable system except near the poles. Clearly, administrative decisions must be made regarding the poles. There are such Sabbath decision in the Talmud. I don't know what the midrashim are. I am a Christian and my Sabbath is Jesus so I don't worry about the particulars of Judaism.

    There are also issue with someone who is in a jet aircraft and is able to fly back and forth across the solar terminator. And, of course, how are the Jews in the first Martian colony going to observe the Sabbath. The Talmud has some prescriptions for the "desert wanderer" who loses track of the count of days.

    what I am saying is that,absent any clear Biblical direction, it is not just an astronomical issue - it is also a liturgical/cultural issue.


    Scout

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  45. If laws did not exist in the past, and therefore there would be no sin, then why did God drown all but eight people in the great flood? Also, why did Noah take animals into the ark in different numbers depending on whether they were clean or unclean?

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  46. If laws did not exist in the past, then how did Lucifer and one-third of the angels sin (transgress law) to become Satan and the demons? If you do not have to obey God, then what was the problem?

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  47. Anon738 stated, "If laws did not exist in the past, and therefore there would be no sin, then why did God drown all but eight people in the great flood? Also, why did Noah take animals into the ark in different numbers depending on whether they were clean or unclean?"

    When we've been told that the Law was from the beginning we can develop a false dichotomy. We begin to think that without the Law given at Sinai there is no determining good and evil.

    But, God gave many instructions before the Exodus without alluding to the Law (Sinai Law). Instructions to care for the Garden, be fruitful and multiply, don't eat of the Tree of TKOGAE, the "noahide laws", boundary stones, etc. The spirit God gives us recognizes murder is wrong (Cain and Able) but the Law was not given. We know this for several reasons outside of the fact that it is never mentioned. The Sabbath is not mentioned as an observance for mankind before the Exodus. Some Holy Days (e.g. passover, Unleavened bread) were established by events during the Exodus account that occurred long after the Patriarchs. Abraham's and Jacob's conditioned offers to give a tenth indicate tithing was not in effect. The marriages of siblings (e.g. Righteous Seth) and half siblings (e.g. Abraham and Sarah) indicate the marriage or sexual relations laws were not yet in force.

    Just a few things to consider.

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  48. 7:52, 12:03

    God is a law unto himself. There is an eternal moral law and it is a reflection of God's character. It is eternal because it is actually God's behavior and God is eternal. The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ are both instantiations of this eternal moral law. Both legislations are designed for a certain group of people at a certain time.

    The mistake that Armstrongism made was to designate the Torah as the eternal moral law. But the Torah is about human behavior and the eternal moral law existed before the creaton of the Cosmos and humans. A Law that says 'thou shalt not commit adultery' doesn't mean anything if there are no humans around.

    And as one might expect, God's eternal moral law, I believe, in a word, is love. It is droll to witness chesty little legalists enter into the fray over the law and not evince love or mention anything about love. For them it is all about torts forbidden by the Torah. Jesus said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. “This is the first and great commandment. “And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself”.

    So before Sinai, before Abraham, before Noah, before the Cosmos, before the Angelic Host, there was the eternal moral law of love.


    Scout

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    Replies
    1. Blasphemy "scout" but not for the first time I'm sure.

      Delete
  49. Scout of course you are correct.

    However Gods laws to mankind codify this greater moral law. Like the command against murder. Jesus shows the intent behind that command. Far more than the actual act of murder, rather its what goes on in the mind! The thoughts of hatred.

    These are the moral principles that have existed for an eternity, and are followed completely by God.

    In reality Gods laws and principles are far MORE binding than just the letter of the law shown by the commandments. Christians are bound to be following far more than just the letter of the law, God expects they are striving to follow the full spiritual intent of the laws of love, which have been followed by God for an eternity.

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  50. Questeruk accidentally commits blasphemy when he writes of:

    the laws of love, which have been followed by God for an eternity.

    God, being God, does not follow any laws. Laws are the quantifiable human expression of God's inherent nature and action. God is love, and His law is love. By His very nature, God cannot violate His law, because that law is the expression of His very Self. To say that "God follows His law" is to put the law above the Lawgiver. God does not give any law that is not an expression of Himself.

    God exists and acts; He does not follow. We as His creation are meant to follow.

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  51. Anonymous 6:07 wrote, "Blasphemy "scout" but not for the first time I'm sure."

    Ok, bring it. Does this statement have substance behind it or is it just another Armstrongist sound bite?


    Scout

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  52. Anon 8:09:00 said

    Questeruk accidentally commits blasphemy when he writes of:
    'the laws of love, which have been followed by God for an eternity'.

    Not at all. God is the supreme expression of love. He has revealed to mankind in a codified way, the principles that express love to God and love to neighbour.

    Those codified principles express to mankind in his physical form the way that God Himself lives, and has lived for an eternity.

    Maybe my expression above wasn’t clear enough.

    What I am saying is that the laws of God are His revealing to mankind the way that God Himself in principle lives. Try this instead:-

    ‘The laws of love are an expression to mankind, which shows the way of life that God Himself leads, and has always led’.

    Is that better?

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