A reader here sent me the following screenshots of a response this person got from Church of God International minister, Wynn Skelton. This person had asked for some financial help during a struggle they were facing and this is the response that was given.
Why are so many Church of God ministers such unsympathetic jackasses? They live lives of plenty and are never in need. All this while pretending to be agents of grace and mercy as followers of Jesus and they pull this kind of stuff.
I don't read Skelton's response in the same way this blogger has. In fact he seems to indicate CGI is in a similar situation as the person requesting financial help....i.e., they don't have the funds to spare.
ReplyDeleteCGI is not a large corporate organization, they have at most a few thousand members who are getting older and on fixed incomes. At some point CGI will go extinct just like all of the other COGs although it probably won't happen as quickly as I would like to see it happen.
I despise Armstrongism having personally experienced its disastrous consequences. However it is important to remain objective when analyzing the words and intentions of COG members and ministers.
It's also worth saying, much to the dismay of some, that not all COG ministers live lives of plenty. Yes the higher-ups certainly do, but most of the rank and file ministers do not, especially in the smaller of the COGs like CGI.
"Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled!"
ReplyDeleteExactly.
DeleteThis is exactly why I left CGI several years ago. The hypocrisy of the ministry is disgusting.
ReplyDeleteIf you think you can and should feed everyone, send me money! Please!
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly why I left CGI several years ago. The hypocrisy of the ministry is disgusting.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm leaving this web site if I don't get money from you guys. Don't be hyprocrites.
There's always been a giant disconnect between the way ACOG ministers come across in their sermons and their behavior once they walk away from the pulpit. It's Doctor Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
ReplyDeleteThere's always been a giant disconnect between the way ACOG ministers come across in their sermons and their behavior once they walk away from the pulpit. It's Doctor Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
ReplyDeleteWhat I personally know of Wynn Skelton suggests a warm and open-hearted person. I think that this coldness - unwillingness to help is in the corporate DNA of these ACOGs. Since the days of Herbert and Garner Ted, they have always seen their primary mission as delivering a warning message to "Israel" (meaning the English-speaking nations of the world) and preaching the "Gospel of the Kingdom of God." They have never seen it as their mission to be helpful and compassionate to the less fortunate or suffering people of this world (I think you can see that in Wynn's message). Unfortunately, they gloss over or ignore all of the many instances of where Christ and his apostles healed people and cast out demons. Yes, they had a message to preach, but they never ignored the hurt and suffering of the folks they were preaching to.
ReplyDeleteWhy how "converted" of Mr. Skelton! These guys pervert Jesus' teachings just as badly as the radical jihadists twist the Koran!
ReplyDeleteI've run across many churches in my years on the planet, and this selfish attitude regarding giving alms or assisting the poor is unique to the Armstrong churches. It is yet another practice that makes Armstrongism a cult. The selfish buttholes even taught us to be selfish. Members were not to help needy people on the street, and were not to pray for people who weren't in the church. If you had spare change enough to help a street person, you needed to send it to Post Office Box 111, Pasadena, CA.
I've said many times that I knew nothing about ethics or real Christian behavior until after I had left that toxic church. I've since discovered that if you consistently help others, it all comes back to you when you are in a difficult spot or temporarily needy. Seems like that is one of the eternal laws of the universe.
I think I may be missing some of the context here … but if the CGI, Church of the Immaculate Conception, has some type of relationship with the Requester, I believe they are required to help the person meet their immediate need. However, I could see CGI not having the resources to assist every unknown neighbor who asks for help.
ReplyDeleteSo, instead of giving them the “be warmed and filled” bum’s rush, CGI should at least have the compassion and minute-of-time resources to direct them to a Christian organization within the Requester’s community, a group that does care for the immediate needs of neighbors – there are plenty of those groups within every community.
I also have a problem with this minister deciding that Jesus did not help each needy person he came in contact with, just because the help was not recorded in the Bible. That struck me as being a COG-odd tactic to re-tool Jesus in the COG minister image. Did anyone else have a problem with that; did anyone call out blasphemy? I believe just the presence of Jesus, and even his shadow passing by, provided some comfort and blessing to all.
As CGI has shown itself to be in need, I offer CGI this bit of assistance: if you stop publishing all literature about British Israelism and other prophecy speculations, you could then set aside that saved publishing and postage money to use as a fund to assist the needy. At least that would make CGI a little more Bible- based.
As a non-believer I would like to at least mention....
ReplyDelete2 Cor 8
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that?
17 So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action, is dead.
It is a phenomenon of religion that when the Church needs money they simply demand "give", "Tithe" and "send it in". However, when a member might need some help, the Church tells them to trust God and "pray about it".
Jesus was not an organized religious group. Big diff.
This guy came up with the worst possible answer but it is and always part of the programming of the ministry that "these things will be fixed and taken care of "in the Kingdom". Someday the Karma Fairy may make a visit to this gentleman when he is in need and will be reminded of this....
True religion that God finds acceptable is to take care of widows and orphans in their distress . . . James.
ReplyDeleteOnce upon a time, there was an old man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing. He had a habit of walking on the beach every morning before he began his work. Early one morning, he was walking along the shore after a big storm had passed and found the vast beach littered with starfish as far as the eye could see, stretching in both directions.
ReplyDeleteOff in the distance, the old man noticed a small boy approaching. As the boy walked, he paused every so often and as he grew closer, the man could see that he was occasionally bending down to pick up an object and throw it into the sea. The boy came closer still and the man called out, “Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?”
The young boy paused, looked up, and replied “Throwing starfish into the ocean. The tide has washed them up onto the beach and they can’t return to the sea by themselves,” the youth replied. “When the sun gets high, they will die, unless I throw them back into the water.”
The old man replied, “But there must be tens of thousands of starfish on this beach. I’m afraid you won’t really be able to make much of a difference.”
The boy bent down, picked up yet another starfish and threw it as far as he could into the ocean. Then he turned, smiled and said, “It made a difference to that one!”
adapted from The Star Thrower, by Loren Eiseley (1907 – 1977)
CGI ministers are not on the payroll. They work their day jobs and pay their own way. To categorize them as living the high life makes you guilty of the very thing you accuse them of.
ReplyDeleteMany times I've counseled people in financial straits, mapping out a route for them to get their finances in order. They will without fail agree with me and say they will follow through. Within a few days, to a week at most, they are right back in their old ways. THAT is why Churches are careful with financial support. Giving money to people who will not change their ways is no help at all. It only makes things worse.
For a good example, look at what the welfare system has done to this country.
The Church is about actual help, not momentary gratification.
Wynn Skelton embodies a remarkable individual dedicated to serving God's church. While churches hold a noble purpose, it's important to acknowledge their limitations in fully meeting everyone's needs and granting every request. To truly understand the situation, it's vital to consider the broader context of these appeals, as focusing solely on one perspective could come across as biased messaging. It's worth noting that a church isn't equivalent to a financial institution.
ReplyDeleteRegarding assistance for the less fortunate, it's worth mentioning that CGI does possess local funds aimed at aiding those in need. However, these resources are also subject to limitations and constraints.
ReplyDeleteJesus gave Peter money to pay taxes:
"Howeveer, so that we do not offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a coin. Thak that and give it to them for yo and Me."
CGI a shadow of what it was. But an easy target for the types on this blog.
ReplyDeleteNotice the wording "booklets, tapes, and literature"
ReplyDeleteClearly, this is an older standardized letter sent to the numerous individuals reaching out for aid from the church. Churches frequently find themselves inundated with appeals for assistance and are unable to cater to all.
This looks to be directed at someone whom Wynn is not acquainted with.
This group is a extension of the church of Satan.
ReplyDelete"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."
ReplyDeleteYou have no idea about the person's situation. Natural disasters strike and some things are unavoidable. Less judging. It can happen to anyone, even you. No one is invincible.
Delete"It is also interesting to see that Jesus never gave anyone money."
ReplyDeleteWhere did this guy get his education? Ambassasdor College?
We have the following scripture:
"For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor."
It is clear they are talking about money. That is what would be contained in "the bag". And it is clear that this is a pattern of behavior that Jesus followed or it would not get a mention along with a practice such as purchasing food.
It is sad when people gratuitiously recruit Jesus to be a supporter of their organizational proclivities.
Scout
GTA's Rebellious Sinners
ReplyDeleteThe basic problem from the very start of Garner Ted Armstrong's tiny little CGI rebel group in 1978 was that it was all based on GTA sinning against God, against his own father Herbert W. Armstrong, against the Worldwide Church of God, and against everyone else. No good was ever going to come of any of it. CGI doomed people to wasting decades of their lives being part of GTA's failed rebellion. It was not GTA's supposedly great speaking ability that had grown the WCG, and GTA's endless babbling sure never grew his tiny little CGI rebel group. Once GTA was out of the WCG, the WCG began to grow again.
ReplyDeleteTonto said...
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."
==================
DennisCDiehl said...
Give a man a fish, as he might be hungry that day, in the transition between being given what one might need to survive the short term and when one graduates from "How to fish" school.
Sell a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.
ReplyDeleteTeach that man how to fish, and you ruin your business model.
What was GTA's salary when he started CGI, I wonder if he tried to outdo his dad's '$500k'
ReplyDeleteThe continued persecution of the Church of God International is disgusting. I can no longer read here.
ReplyDeleteIf thats persecution, you're the most sensitive fragile snowflake we've encountered yet. Mommyyyyy, people said mean things on a websiiiiite!
DeleteGTA's CGI is disgusting.
ReplyDeleteGTA's ICG is disgusting.
GTA is disgusting.
I cannot stand any of their noise.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"The continued persecution of the Church of God International is disgusting. I can no longer read here.
Monday, August 28, 2023 at 11:05:00 AM PDT"
This isn’t the airport, there is no need to announce your departure.
Anonymous 5:45 said: "CGI ministers are not on the payroll." While most CGI ministers are not on the payroll, I believe that Bill Watson, Mike James, Jeff Reed, Vance Stinson, and Wynn Skelton ARE (although, some of them may only be part-time at present).
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 11:05 - This isn't persecution. Persecution is being imprisoned, murdered, and/or not being allowed to preach or practice your faith. This is called criticism. Yes, it can be a little uncomfortable at times, but it is NOT persecution!!
CGI is actually a very well balanced and generous organization that I, personally, very much appreciate.
ReplyDeleteMark Wolfe 12:19 wrote, "...very well balanced..."
ReplyDeleteYou may not want to use this expression. The term "balanced" is a trigger word for some people. It is for me. At AC anyone who was different and did not conform to cultic expectations was branded with the epithet "not balanced". If someone said that about you, it could be a life altering experience. I would get a thesaurus and find myself another word.
Scout
Not every religious organization is meant to be run as a social welfare program.
ReplyDeleteI don't know the details behind this "story," but I don't fault CGI for not rescuing everyone in financial straits.
CGI might be wise, however, to direct people to resources and orgs that are dedicated to helping people with specific needs.
Help some people sometimes, sure. But no one has the resources to fund the solution to everyone's problems. (In some cases, depending, it might even be detrimental to a person.)
Heard it all now, a fake Catholic calling themselves COG Catholic....hilarious ha ha ha. What a clown !!!
DeleteSo, are we saying that CGI and ICG are Absalom's churches? Jeez, get a haircut and get a real job!
ReplyDeleteGTA initiated the STP program, often called the slide towards Protestantism, without HWAs consent. He, like Joe Tkach should have done the honest thing by starting their own churches rather than trying to do an inside job. They had no right to shove their new religion down HWAs members throats.
ReplyDeleteInteresting how the same thing is happening to America politically with the woke religion.
I bet CGI is happy to except 3rd. tithe if anyone is crazy enough to still do that. Isn’t that to help the widow and those in need.
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:16 said "GTA initiated the STP program, often called the slide towards Protestantism, without HWAs consent. "
ReplyDeleteThat is not true at all. Many of those articles in the STP went across HWA's desk and he approved them. What was being attempted was to finally put our beliefs down in a statement so that the ministry and church actually knew what we believed. So many of our beliefs were self-interpreted by various ministers and evangelists to mean what they wanted it to mean while the rest of the church heard something different.
There was nothing "protestant" about the STP. That's just a lie the Herbert worshippers used to discredit GTA, namely Spanky Meredith.
Anon 12:16 said "GTA initiated the STP program, often called the slide towards Protestantism, without HWAs consent. "
ReplyDeleteThat is not true at all. Many of those articles in the STP went across HWA's desk and he approved them. What was being attempted was to finally put our beliefs down in a statement so that the ministry and church actually knew what we believed. So many of our beliefs were self-interpreted by various ministers and evangelists to mean what they wanted it to mean while the rest of the church heard something different.
There was nothing "protestant" about the STP. That's just a lie the Herbert worshippers used to discredit GTA, namely Spanky Meredith.
5.09 pm. I heard more than once from the pulpit that STP stands from for slide towards Protestantism. That's after the manual was withdrawn. From memory, HWA claimed he was pressured to start STP as a means of articulating church beliefs. But while he was travelled overseas for about 3 years, the project was hijacked by the liberals. Which is why he had it revoked.
ReplyDeleteAgain, the honorable thing would have been for GTA and his followers to start their own denomination rather than using the bait and switch ploy used by today's Dave Pack and similar.
"But while he was travelled overseas for about 3 years, the project was hijacked by the liberals. Which is why he had it revoked. "
ReplyDeleteThis is again a load of crap. They want you to imagine HWA spent 3 complete years traveling never once stopping by his office. He did no such thing. He spent a lot of time working in his office and reading the various topics that went into the STP. He knew exactly what was in it.
Meredith knew the STP was his ultimate weapon to humiliate GTA, and so started a campaign turning HWA against the very things he approved to be in the binder. This was also Rod Meredith's and a few others their golden opportunity to poison HWA's mind against GTA with the STP.
The so-called "liberal" epitaph that some so freely throw around is thanks to Rod Meredith and his fellow ministers. It was the ultra-conservative ministers like Meredith that made life a living hell for so many members. Tkach wisely sidelined Meredith leaving him in the shadows while his lawsuit was being fought with church money. Once Leona McNair won the lawsuit and Meredith was humiliated beyond measure, he turned tail and took his weasely ass to start two separate splinter groups, each one progressively worse than anything WCG ever was.
Guys, you're just not going to find a right side or a wrong side, to this STP thing. Both sides were completely rotten, egos flared, and everything we ever heard from both sides was a bunch of public relations bull$h*t! You had an old man, guilty of horrible sex sins who had knowingly covered for his son for years as the son fornicated freely. The church was falling apart at the time because there was open revolt amongst many in the field ministry over deep doctrinal questions that never seemed to get addressed. You had trusted deacons with cameras hiding in vans outside the meetings and church services which were being conducted in the Pasadena area by dissident ministers, spying on and photographing any WCG members who were curious enough to want to hear what some of these very popular ministers had to,say. All college and church employees had to sign affidavits affirming our loyalty to HWA if we wanted our employment to continue. The dorms at Ambassador College were bugged by security. There were so many high level leakers of information and documents funneling materials to John Trechak at Ambassador Reports. Pot parties on and off campus. An emergency ministerial conference which a huge number of ministers from the field simply skipped. It was a mess! Nobody had to poison anybody's mind against GTA, because all they had to do was go to the news stand and buy Playboy, and read all about "America's Playboy Evangelist".
ReplyDeleteThe STP was a worthy project in concept at its inception.. It was a general church project undertaken by the leadership of the church. But, it became a political football in those scandalous revolutionary times, and the victors of the power struggle got to write the history of it. It is fought about to this day, decades after all copies were ordered to be destroyed. D.O.A. in the heat of battle, the war and great falling away of 1975. It was dirty, and made people sick over the ugly things that both sides were doing. I believe that what actually reinvigorated the remaining members was ironically the lawsuit and receivership.
8.36,
ReplyDeleteHWA stated that in his three year non-stop world travels, people behind his back hijacked the STP project to push their liberal agenda. That is the explanation he gave to his church members. Yes, it does seem implausible that he still didn't know what went on in HQ. And I find it hard to believe that STP was purely the product of Rod Meredith Vs. GTA rivalry. HWA rebuked GTA for having a gay boyfriend, so with such tolerance, I find it hard to believe that anyone could poison his mind against his son. Perhaps STP was the product of HWAs passive-aggressive behavior. I don't think we'll ever know the true details.
The ongoing splintering before and after HWAs death convinces me that STP was an apostasy from Herbs teachings.
The information I have read seems to point to HWA's relationship with Stanley Rader was the biggest reason for GTA's ouster. With GTA gone Rader had the biggest influence on HWA and the church. STP was far less worldly that what was going on with the Ambassador Auditorium stuff and HWA's travels.
ReplyDeleteThe STP was undertaken by subersives in the "leadership" of the Church. It idea that it was undertaken by the leadership is absurd. HWA himself WAS the leadership.
ReplyDeleteEverybody knew what the church believed. It was in the correspondence course and the church's booklets. There was no need for an STP to clarifiy the obvious.
ReplyDeleteI dont know about that, 9:45 - pretend you're a WCG ministurd (perish the thought, I know) operating in good, earnest faith (also debatable but picture it anyway).
DeleteSomeone in your congregation comes to you asking specific questions about a doctrine, questions that you never really thought about. Wouldnt it be easier to have a manual to reference instead of having to paw through a bunch of booklets and magazines written at different times and hope the one you settled on had the information you wanted?
Heh, after hearing about the Systematic Theology Project for a decade or two, I looked it up online and read it. It really wasnt as interesting as the henchmen made it out to be.
ReplyDeleteAll this talk about the STP but no one explaining what it is. I came after it but I've heard a little bit about it. Can't trust all the comments above except the one who said, "BOTH sides were wrong".
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, STP was about reviewing the divorce and remarriage doctrine (which is allowed within limits). It was supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT for the church but it turned out to be occasion to fall for many. This lead to the purifying of the church afterwards when it began to grow substantially during the fruitful 80s. Some (like Westby?) were right at the time (and could have stayed) but they either didn't handle it well or were shown no mercy (typical in any era depending on the leadership). Others were corrupt (GTA, Radar, etc.) and they were spewed out.
It is Christ who is running the show, folks. It's not a few men ruining it for everyone, lol. If you keep sinning against good or evil things, your place in Christ will be taken away.
What we should be addressing is our behaviour and the doctrine because we have some ministers (Winnail, Register) who are guilty of misunderstanding and misapplying the divorce and remarriage doctrine today.
https://hwarmstrong.com/history/wcg_stp.pdf
DeleteSTP was an attempt to systematize, justify, and codify Church beliefs. Although Herbie was aware of the project, he ultimately decided that having things in black and white in one place would undermine his ability to change/modify doctrine on a whim. In other words, he decided that it would undermine his authority as "God's Apostle." For those who are interested, CGI basically adopted the STP (in some places word for word) wholesale. You can view it on their website and reach your own conclusions: https://www.cgi.org/stp (As you can see, the basic doctrines of the old Worldwide Church are basically the same as they were at the time of GTA's departure from the parent organization (with some notable modifications to teachings about Church governance).
ReplyDeleteGod's Apostle? That title wasn't enough for Herbie, so we got pounded with "God's Chosen Apostle." Never mind that according to church theology we were all chosen.
ReplyDeleteI feel so stupid for using 'God's chosen apostle' in my prayers back then.
It just amazes me that the STP is such a large point of interest today. Back then, when it was a COG current event, it was just another thing that HWA scuttled and flapped his hog jowls about. Another in his series of catastrophic "atracks by Satan on God's church." Don't get me wrong. I now know that it ended up being one of the founding documents of CGI, a GTA version of the COG. So there was life tomthe document after HWA.
ReplyDeleteStill, it just seems to be inconsequential as compared to some of the other things I am learning. As an example, I generally do not use restrooms frequented by the general public, but today while working on some equipment at one of my corporate accounts for a 4 hour patch, it was unavoidable. Didn't mind terribly, because it was clean. While I was preparing the toilet seat in the mens room with an ass gasket, i noticed a small hygienic tank on the wall of the stall. It freaked me out, because It was for used Kotex pads or tampons! I recoiled and peaked out at the large mirror outside of the stall to make sure there were the urinals I thought I had recalled. Yep! They were actually there!
As I'm sitting there thinking "what the actual f**k?" it occurred to me that apparently this was for the convenience of all the ladies who are transitioning into manhood, and would of course be going through the self-visualizing or even validating journey of learning to use the mens room! As I washed my hands, I glanced around the restroom to see if there were vending machines where one could purchase feminine hygiene products, but apparently society has not yet advanced to that point.
I don't know if I feel completely comfortable with this. I feel compassion for people born with gender dysphoria, but had not anticipated this level of encroachment!
But if the goal of STP was to "systematize, justify, and codify Church beliefs," it would have been published in book form. But it wasn't. It was handed out as a loose leaf manual. This meant pages could easy be removed and replaced with "new light."
ReplyDeleteThis a one giant red flag that it was a underhanded attempt to change church doctrines.
Sounds more like budget to me. Loose leaf is much cheaper en masse.
Delete@8:00 Dude, it was never ratified by HWA, and therefore subject to further review and revision. Although I've never seen a copy, there could be many different forms. I'm sure that it has been copied and reproduced over the years. Some of us have just learned that CGI used it as one of their founding documents, which seems to suggest they might have printed their edition as well..
ReplyDeleteThe terms liberal and conservative have been used as pejoratives for decades now. In HWA's lexicon, "liberal" automatically meant "Laodicean". That was a given. The people who were pushing for modification of the Divorce and Remarriage laws while the STP project was an active event, were considered to be liberals. As an aside, my grandmother, a dear old Protestant lady, held the same beliefs of divorce and remarriage as the original WCG taught, and she was never an Armstrongite. I often heard GTA state that if we had corrected the D&R doctrine, the church would probably be twice the size it was. It was unusual and very hypocritical at that time that HWA would actually change the D&R doctrine, but then scuttle the STP project, while accusing GTA and "his" project, the STP, of being liberal. And, in protest, you have ultra conservative Raymond Cole "preserving" original "revealed" truth by going off and starting COGE. Apparently, he was not impressed that either side was "of God",
During the HWA years, every decision made perfect sense if you viewed it from a financial or business perspective. He wrote the book that all the very wealthy televangelists since have followed. You wonder where all the millionaire "rock star" evangelists on TNN and Daystar came from, they followed the trail blazer, HWA. There actually was a time when Third Tithe supported church widows, and poor, bare subsistence farmers, the infirm and challenged. When they found a different application for that, like HWA's art collection, many of those people were told to go down to the welfare office and to sign up! That happened in the '70s as well. And that takes us full circle to the original topic.
9.36, I clearly recall my minister holding up the STP manual (in loose leaf binder form) and having it on the podium during his sermon. I've never heard of your different forms.
ReplyDeleteThat CGI copied parts of it is unsurprising. Initially STP would have been faithful to Herbs teachings, followed by the frog in increasingly heated water ploy. It's what Joe Tkach did on replacing Herb.
The use of the terms "liberal" and "conservative" is a matter of perspective. HWA implemented a very liberal version of the Torah. He liberally let the Church Administration Department of the WCG revise aspects of the Torah for modern usage. Then once this liberal agenda was set in place, it became a conservative approach to support it. And any departure from it was called "liberal". The terms "liberal" and "conservative" are pretextual and easily misappropriated for vested interests. These propgandistic terms should not be the center of any substantive analysis. With regard to the Torah, orthodox Jews would regard HWA as a flaming liberal.
ReplyDeleteI had a look at the STP carried on the CGI site and nonticed immediately that CGI's Doctrine of God departs significantly from Armstrongism. I had been wondering if there were any real theological differences between STP Armstrongism and Classical Armstrongism and there are.
This is what the UCG booklet titled "Is God a Trinity" says about God on page 52:
"Comprehending God’s Oneness: We see, then, that Scripture reveals two separate, distinct persons, both spirit, yet one in unity, belief, direction and purpose—members of the same divine family."
This is Bi-theism and aligns with Classical Armstrongist Booklet Theology. The relationship between Father and Son is purely ideological. They are otherwise two separate beings.
On the other hand, we have this statement from the CGI STP:
"God the Father and the Word have eternally existed as one. As mentioned in the Statement on God, God is not two Spirits, but one Spirit (“Spirit” is the essence of God). Within that one Spirit—the one eternal essence—are the Father and the Son, but,the two are distinct Persons in the family of God."
While the vocabulary is not orthdox Christian, the intent, I believe, is to state that there is consubstantial relationship between Father and Son. This is not the Bi-theism of Classical Armstrongism but is Binitarianism and acknowleges to co-inherent relationship between the Persons of God.
The Bi-theism of Classical Armstrongism is a "liberal" innovation. It is a form of polytheism and is a radical departure from the monotheism of the Old Testament. Binitarianism conservatively adheres to the monotheistic theme of the ancient Hebrews though acknowledging multiple Persons in the Godhead.
If HWA even noticed this, I could see where he would be alarmed at this shift towards Christianity.
Scout
None of the comments above convince me or enlighten me. As far as I know, STP was needed to correct the doctrine that needed more clarification, to bring in more of ministry of the Spirit rather than the letter of the law. Some didn't like any divorce or remarriage while others wanted that right. (Even today, they want the right to marry whomever they wish, believer or unbeliever) It's easy to accuse one side of being too strict and merciless and the other side of being permissive, when the opposite may be true. People wanted to do what was right in their own eyes, which never goes well.
ReplyDelete4:12, JWT actually improved on what HWA did doctrinally. I was there and saw the effects in my own area. The trouble was that not everyone in the ministry or membership supported him or were dedicated to Christ. However, it was all set to deteriorate anyway because Christ had it in mind to scatter us all (because it wasn't going to improve). That's why later on JWT went over the deep end, watered down the Sabbath and the law, got cancer, died early, was replaced by a worse leadership group, while the corruption continued in the churches to this day, 30 years later.
D&R is a very tiny piece of the document.
DeleteScout wrote,
ReplyDelete"I had a look at the STP carried on the CGI site and nonticed immediately that CGI's Doctrine of God departs significantly from Armstrongism. I had been wondering if there were any real theological differences between STP Armstrongism and Classical Armstrongism and there are."
There have been revisions of the STP within CGI so it differs from the original document. For example, there is a section labeled "The Father" in our STP that was not in the original.
It also includes this disclaimer:
"The systematic theology is not to replace, supersede, or overshadow the Bible. The point of view is that of looking up toward, and not down upon, God’s Word. Although we are building a superstructure, the Bible will always remain the foundation. The readership of this theology is cautioned not to lose this perspective."
My bible tells me that "you shall know them by their fruits" rather than by their disclaimers. This reminds of Herb claiming: "I don't set dates but consider evident A that points to 1975." "I don't set dates but consider evidence B that points to 1975." "I don't set dates but consider evidence C that points to 1975," etc.
ReplyDeleteThere can be a big gulf between disclaimers and the reality.
Well, there is seemingly no shortage of people hangin' around who think to themselves, "But, Mr.Armstrong could still have been right!"
ReplyDelete11.27, but HWA didn't teach 1975 as speculation. In some church articles it was explicitly taught. Herb used his word smith skills to convince his followers into believing 1975 while having legal plausible deniability.
ReplyDeleteI spoke with Wynn about this email. It is a form email sent to individuals or organizations in foreign countries requesting assistance. It was sent from our home office. We have a limited budget for foreign missions, which is administered through our offices in those countries.
ReplyDeleteI know Wynn, and he is a very loving and caring person. If someone were to ask Wynn personally, he would respond personally. We have local funds in our churches for assistance, and just like anyone else, we have limited resources and cannot help everyone.
This email must be evaluated in the context of the individual's request which was not provided. I respectfully ask anyone reading this article to be skeptical of its accuracy.