Does law keeping, Sabbath keeping, Holy Day keeping, eating kosher, reading only COG related material, tithing 30-40% of your income to the church, giving all things common to your Dear Leader, believing the false prophecies/false dreams/lies of your church leader, and many more things, actually transform you as person? Do these things make you a follower of Christ?
Christian have long understood that our old selves have already been "crucified" with Christ's sacrifice. Its not something that anyone needs to be continually doing. Being transformed by Christ is letting the fruits of the spirit shine forth. Stop looking to Herbert Armstrong, Gerald Weston, and especially Bob Thiel as sources for your transformation. It isn't going happen through them.
Real Transforming Faith: Has your faith influenced and changed your life? The Apostle Paul urged Christians, “do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind” (Romans 12:1–2). The English word “transformed” comes from the Greek word metamorphoo, which means a complete and total change—as when a caterpillar turns into a butterfly! Jesus told potential Christians they must repent (metanoeo) which involves learning to think differently and turn with worry from a past course of action. As we study and meditate on the word of God and ask God to help us change, we will develop the mind of Jesus Christ (Philippians 2:5). As we make conscious decisions to think, talk, and act as Jesus would—as we crucify our old self—Jesus Christ will be able to live His life in us (Galatians 2:20). This is the transformation that God is looking for in those He calls to become members of His family (Ephesians 5:8–10).
Have a profitable Sabbath,
Douglas S. Winnail
"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2 Corinthians 3:17). “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).
"Genuine transformation is God-achieved and God-sustained, requiring no effort on our part to attain it or live it out. When we know the truth in our hearts, we will be renewed and live differently from that point forward—without effort. Transformation is not trying to be like Jesus, but rather Jesus living His life in and through us resulting in us experiencing the fruit of the Spirit."
"According to the Scriptures, a Christian is a person who possesses the Spirit of Christ. This is the only real test of authentic Christianity. Paul said it this way, “… if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ” (Rom. 8:9). If we possess Christ His Spirit will be evident in our lives. Genuine transformation will be the verification of His indwelling presence, and the fruit of His Spirit will be evident in our lives. If we are lacking genuine transformation (change that only He has wrought in us) and the absence of His fruit, then something is amiss. If our “transformation” is that which we are doing through controlling our behavior and trying to act like Jesus, then something is wrong. Spiritual performance and acting like Jesus is what any lost person could do if they set their mind to it, but transformation is a work of God and not of man." Transformation: Solely a Work of God
"..reading only COG related material..."
ReplyDeleteFrom a book: "Normal growth is from childs small universe to a wider intellectual life." Christ could not have answered all His critics as He did if all He read was similar to "GOG related material."
The ACOG justify their teaching of avoiding non-church literature by claiming that their minds will be "poisoned" by it. This is a mistrust of freedom and is in keeping with treating members as children. This complaint also fails to mention the "poison" in church literature such as "government is everything" and palming off tyranny as God's social system.
John 17:15 "My prayer is not that you take them out of the world (including intellectually) but that you protect them from the evil one."
I keep seeing ex-COG people say that in COGs, you have to pay 30% tithe to the church. Now this says 30-40%. This isn't really an accurate representation, is it?
ReplyDeleteAnon 909 Well if you’re in a third tithe year you are at 30% feast tithe of the tithe 1%
DeleteFactor in offerings and that might be on point
Does law keeping, Sabbath keeping, Holy Day keeping, eating kosher, reading only COG related material, tithing 30-40% of your income to the church, giving all things common to your Dear Leader, believing the false prophecies/false dreams/lies of your church leader, and many more things, actually transform you as person? Do these things make you a follower of Christ?
ReplyDeleteWell, of course not. That is obvious if one looks at the Jews who do such things but are not transformed, as Jesus said. But along with that is supposed to come a change of heart. These things (except reading only COG literature) are PART of what God asks us to do. We must do ALL that he says. So those things are not BAD. Perhaps you are missing the point.
If you speak with anyone who has underlying pathologies from which they desperately want to be transformed, on the thought level, the dream level, the soul level, and if they are honest, they'll all tell you the same thing. It ain't happening in this physical life time! You can act, by will power, according to a rigid set of higher principles, but you're going to be fighting your inner compulsions right up until the day you die!
ReplyDeleteI've known people who actually hate the stuff in their minds with which they were born, or might have learned during bad parts of their lives. Some of them have good, successful lives and don't give in to what ever would normally be driving them, but even the best and most successful acting will not replace what is part of your soul print. Sometimes, it is difficult to understand how God could even reprogram and transform us. The Apostle Paul even recognized this, and described it so concisely and eloquently.
Guess we just have to trust.
Eating Kosher NO2HWA???? Writing off christians who follow clean and unclean laws as "keeping kosher" shows how far you've gone.
ReplyDelete'Eating Kosher NO2HWA???? Writing off christians who follow clean and unclean laws as "keeping kosher" shows how far you've gone.'
ReplyDeleteTake a chill pill buttercup! We all know exactly what he meant, Armstrongism's version of kosher laws. Another thing not commanded of New Covenant Christians.
He? Evidence hypocrite.
Delete'I keep seeing ex-COG people say that in COGs, you have to pay 30% tithe to the church. Now this says 30-40%. This isn't really an accurate representation, is it?"
ReplyDeleteChurch members are expected, wait - COMMANDED to tithe 10% to the church, 10% for the fall convention, a tithe of that amount and members err are excepted to turn in all of their excess second time if they do not spend it all, every three years a third tithe is commanded that s supposed to care of widows, orphans and those needing finial help (99% of the time the church never uses that money on such people but siphon it off for other uses, members are expected to give free will offerings on Holy Days which is in addition to their tithe. Then they are expected to send in money on semi-annual and annual member letters which beg for more money to spread the gospel, on top of that certain groups demand that member hold bake sales, garage sales, volunteer at community fund raisers, etc so that all of that money can be sent in too. Others demand that all IRA's, retirement funds, social security, etc also be turned in.
2 examples of where all that fleecing of the flock 🐑🐑💵💵💶💷 ends up is, the Oklahoma red brick artificial façade facsimilie campus of Pasadena heyday re-built by G. Flurry's PCG out in red dust of 14400 block S. Bryant Rd. in Edmond, OK
Deletenext example is RCG's sprawling Wadsworth, OH campus of Dave Pack's labouriously landscaped lawns & ponds & buildings & flower beds & horsie barns 🐎🐎🌳
then there is Africa games & panderings & vehicle fleets & ministerial Robin Hood redistribution of wealth passouts that 2 ccog guys requested transparency validations for
the "turning in of that excess 2nd tithe" sure does make the Edmond & Wadsworth land tax assessor's staff very happy
those 2 counties or municipalities can likely siphon off many earmarks & pork barrel projects to fund hip, eclectic progressive family planning clinics after all that fleecing the flock's 1st/2nd/& 3rd percentages
10.24 pm
ReplyDeleteFighting one's inner compulsions is like a gym workout. It builds character.
LCG also wants to transform you with time travel. As if we needed further proof that the ACOGs are stuck in the past, notice this recent LCG article, which discusses "a very popular song in 1969" as if it were a current topic of interest. Fifty years ago, if you were listening to Three Dog Night your minister would have been very upset with you for your worldly influences. Today, LCG uses that same music to keep elderly members in bondage. How sad!
ReplyDelete“As we make conscious decisions to think, talk, and act as Jesus would — as we crucify our old self — Jesus Christ will be able to live His life in us (Galatians 2:20).”
ReplyDeleteThere are some issues with the entire text quoted in this post. But the statement above stands out. A theme that runs through Armstrongism is the idea of bootstrapping your own salvation. If you parse the logic of the statement above, it says that if we, on our own, crucify ourselves as a pre-condition, we may then make it possible for Jesus to live his life in us. Salvation is then self-generated. This doesn’t fly.
What may lead to this idea of self-crucifixion, is the fact that in Galatians 5:24, it states that “Now those belonging to the Anointed One Jesus have crucified the flesh (Hart’s translation throughout)”. This is active voice. It seems to be saying that self-crucifixion is an activity that we must engage in. Salvation is then self-generated. (It also nullifies the concept of Election but that is another topic.) It seems to contravene Paul’s earlier statement, also in Galatians, when he said, “I have been crucified along with the Anointed (Gal 2:20)” which is in passive voice. To seal this idea, he states “And I live no longer, but the Anointed lives within me”. Paul is not the actor. Paul identifies the actor in salvation clearly. It is Jesus Christ.
But if we examine Galatians 5:24 closely, it says something very different from what this preacher has written. It says, “Now those belonging to the Anointed One Jesus have crucified the flesh”. Being in Jeus is the pre-condition to being able to crucify the flesh. This comports with the passive voice of Gal 2:20. But this preacher has reversed the statement of Paul. He has stated that one must crucify the flesh himself in order that Jesus might live in him.
There is more that could be written but it is clear that what this preacher has written is 180 degrees out from scripture and orthodox Christian dogma. But what he has written very much aligns with the Armstrongist save-yourself ideology.
Scout
Note: I am not saying that Christians do not have to be moral. That is a banal Armstrongist dodge. I am saying that our transformation (or sanctification) is initiated and sustained by Jesus. Our moral behavior is a product of his life in us. His living in us is not a result of our self-generated moral behavior.
A Christian is one who has the spirit of Christ. The proof of having that spirit is keeping the law like He did, including the Sabbath, but not like the Jews do, since they keep only the literal law, and only parts of that.
ReplyDeleteA Christian is one who has the spirit of Christ. The proof of having that spirit is keeping the law like He did, including the Sabbath, but not like the Jews do, since they keep only the literal law, and only parts of that.
ReplyDeleteNow THAT'S rich! It's the Armstrongites who keep "only parts" of the literal and spiritual Law. The Jews strive to keep ALL of the literal law, and in order to keep that literal law they add a cumbersome superstructure of additional man-made law on top of that. The Jews use human reason to invent new human schemes for keeping the literal law, while the Armstrongites use human reason to invent excuses not to keep the literal law. Remember this next year when your Jewish friends are spending Sukkot in temporary dwellings built as Scripture commands, while you call your Motel 6 a "temporary dwelling" though it is not made of the "branches of olive, wild olive, myrtle, palm, and other leafy trees" commanded by God.
1:56
ReplyDeleteIf you feel that you have a charter to follow Jesus in keeping the Torah, let me ask you a couple of questions.
1. Why did Peter and Paul live like Gentiles?
2. Why don't you keep all of the Torah? Jesus did. He also participated in Temple worship. If the Torah had to be kept, in the view of Jesus, then why would he let an essential part of the Torah - the Temple - be destroyed in 70 AD?
3. Given point 2 above, why do you think you have salvation?
Scout
Christians are how Jesus rebuilt the currently existing 3rd temple even now
DeleteDoug Winnail indoctrinates his followers to overlook Jesus having an active, daily role in transforming their lives through grace, redemption, justification, and sanctification. Instead, LCG teaches that they need to do all the work themselves – they even must save themselves.
ReplyDeleteIn a recent letter to members and co-workers LCG’s George Weston wrote:
"Life on this earth is short, but there is a reward for those who put God first in their lives, and that reward is eternal life."
In stark contradiction to verses such as Ephesians 2:8, LCG teaches that you must work to earn your salvation. In this context, Weston was actually implying that putting God first in your life means giving money to his church.
LCG rejects salvation as a gift from God and instead teaches you must either earn salvation by keeping their version of the law, or at least co-save yourself by qualifying for salvation.
In LCG theology, Jesus is not much of a savior and God doesn’t give real gifts without heavy strings attached.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Jesus did tell that hooker to go, & sin no more
Deleteshe & others like her have to use bootstraps often for that in addition to His help
The elites don't have to fight. It's do as I say not as I do.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwrTDXJ7gMQ
It is DUMB to assume that everyone on here who keeps the sabbath is an Armstrongite. The stupid mistake is repeated on this site every time the subject comes up. Some people never learn.
ReplyDeleteThey never learn because in reality their quite small minded and it's all they know.
DeleteSome parts of the law were national and some were spiritual. Otherwise there would be no such thing as sin. Only the national laws no longer apply. Sin was sin before the temple was built, and remained sin after it was destroyed. I think everyone knows that, although some pretend not to.
ReplyDelete811,
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've read someone make that assumption.
8:11, the really telling question for people who keep the sabbath here is, "From whom did you find out about the sabbath?"
ReplyDeleteIf you learned about it from HWA, and you claim to have left the organization, but you retained 90% of the classic WCG package, then, sorry, but yeah, you are an Armstrongite! Now if you happen to be an itinerant Jew or Seventh Day Adventist who accidentally stumbled across this site and just happen to enjoy discussing the sabbath, then of course you are most certainly not an Armstrongite! If you are a vampire, and were only maybe a couple hundred years old while GG Rupert was alive and active, and learned about the sabbath from him, then you are a Rupertite, which would be really strange for a vampire, but that's another discussion entirely!
The Jews keep all of the literal law as Jesus taught it? When did they accept Jesus? I guess I missed that.
ReplyDeleteJesus didn't seem to be obsessed with keeping 613 mitzvot
Deletebut He promoted keeping the 10 biggies
Jews keep the literal law? They don't commit adultery? They don't lie? Did Jesus say the Rabbis were full of dead men's bones? Vipers? You believe Jewish politicians? Not all Jews are Pharisees. Even those that are often break the law.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with all these scripture-juggling posts is that they expect you to look away from reality. Reality is that if you want to learn how to dance or play a musical instrument, you have to practice. Likewise to learn good mental habits, one must also practice. No practice equals no change. One remains the same. Which is why Christ condemned the person who buried his talents in the ground. It's all about effort folks.
ReplyDeletePeople who break God's Law of Love, SOME of which are codified in the 10 Commandments will not be allowed to enter the Kingdom of God, otherwise we would have a sin ruled world like we have in this age. with death, destruction, lying, murders, adultery, thefts, idolatory, etc. etc.
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 9 KJV " 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
We are only justified if we try our hardest not to go back into sin. It's really quite simple. Keeping The 10 commandments doesn't save us per se, but we need to keep them as best we can, and other laws of love to be in the kingdom. Because we all sin we have a saviour who will forgive us if truly repentant. In effect then we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus but shouldn't continue in a sinning life
Somebody please show me if I am wrong!
Doug does not know his biology very well, b/c he should have fact-checked his fairy tale about a caterpillar transforming into a butterfly, b/c that ain't true!
ReplyDeleteDoug does not know Jesus (and Doug's Jesus is not some "God of the Old Testament!") and Doug does not know The God, the Father: Jesus' God! How do we know that? By Doug's own words of admission.
Didn't Jesus say that of Himself He could do nothing? Didn't Jesus say that He was sent to give us His Father's words? Doesn't the Bible say that all will be taught of God, The God? And that would include Jesus, His Son.
So, what mind did Jesus have? His Father's mind is what had been developed in Him! Jesus was the workmanship of His Father. For Doug: think about it! Eliminate the Junk Food regarding your Jesus, and the caterpillar to butterfly thingy!
Doug asked: "...Has your faith influenced and changed your life?..."
It hasn't. My faith isn't worth much. We may have a physical faith that the water fountain near some restroom really distributes just water without any additives, but spiritual faith? If God does not give His fruit of faith by measure (Galatians 5:22; Romans 12:3, 6), we don't have it!
Okay, Doug referenced this: "...The English word “transformed” comes from the Greek word metamorphoo, which means a complete and total change—as when a caterpillar turns into a butterfly!..."
I suggest Doug obtain a booklet, ISBN 0-8024-3027-9, titled "GOD IN CREATION" by Bob Devine, if he/you can find it and learn, in reader-friendly language with pictures,about "several complex phenomena in nature," such as how a monarch butterfly grows inside of the caterpillar. Scientists call it "an embryo inside an embryo." The gist of this is that inside the caterpillar are tiny "nests" of anlagen butterfly cells inside the larvae. Those cells contain the butterfly genes, the building blocks for a butterfly. Here is a bottom-line quote from this booklet: "None of the caterpillar's body parts change into butterfly parts. They are all new and different. They came from the tiny "nest" of anlagen cells that were always inside the caterpillar's body..." Also, when the butterfly laid her eggs, "...there were two kinds of genetic information in them: caterpillar and butterfly..."
Again, for Doug: A creature that bites and chews, has 6 small eyes on each side of the head, has 2 very short antennae, has 8 pairs of legs and no wings did NOT CHANGE into another creature that only drinks, with 2 compound eyes, 2 long antennae, 3 pairs of legs and has wings!
Doug, repentance is something that God grants/gives, and not something produced by the self magically transforming itself. What God did for the Gentiles, granting them repentance, is something God must also do for the Israelites. All glory, honor and praise to Jesus' Father!
Doug, your understanding about metamorphosis of caterpillar to butterfly is science falsely-so-called, but are your ideas and theories about your Jesus (another Jesus?) from some religion falsely-so-called? Doug, when will you undergo your being transformed from teaching false ideas, and theories (like MMMillennium), and, at least, teach the truth about the caterpillar and the butterfly: two separate organisms?
Time will tell..
John
Hello Anonymous at 3:18:00 AM PDT:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote: “Somebody please show me if I am wrong!”
I’m happy to do so!
First, you appear to have been indoctrinated by a religion that does not teach the Doctrine of Justification.
So, when you cited a wonderfully inspiring passage from 1 Corinthians 6 you are likely to be compelled to re-write verse 11 to fit within the theology of Armstrongism.
Notice the present tense of I Corinthians 6:11, which actually says: “…. but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
Justification means “made right” and “made righteous”.
Jesus makes us righteous – not what we do
Your re-tooling of that verse was stated as: “We are only justified if we try our hardest not to go back into sin.”
Verse 11 does not say that – it says that you are justified in the name of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit – what we do is not in the equation.
No verses in the Bible say what you stated about only being justified by our trying our hardest – or even trying a little bit.
Justification is solely the work of Jesus – we should not advocate for the possibility of taking the work of salvation or justification from Jesus.
Your statement is contrary to many verses, such as Galatians 2:16:
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The Bible contains several verses that explain justification – Christianity derives its Doctrine of Justification from these verses.
Armstrongism ignores these verses and seeks to convince people that salvation is their own work achieved by their own striving to be righteous – not the work of the Savior
Conditionally, you and I are the sinners described in verses 9 - 10 of I Corinthians 6.
Positionally, in Jesus, you and I are completely righteous – made righteous by his righteousness (Romans 3:26)
Many people in Armstrongism become exhausted trying to make themselves righteous – they fail miserably – they can never obtain by their own efforts the righteousness that brings them to be at peace with God.
Please try studying all the verses that contain the words justification, justify, and justified – you can soon become an expert on the topic!
Once you understand the biblical Doctrine of Justification, you will praise God for his love and mercy – and enjoy being at peace with him.
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
May that righteousness and peace be with you!