Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders

Friday, May 10, 2024

The COG and its Waldensian Sabbath-Keeper Myths

 


by Ryan Caswell

Caswell Visuals

(Reposted with permission)

Another example of the Church of God’s misuse of historical information is found in the Living Church of God’s “God’s Church Through the Ages” book. Understand the quote we will see was used in literature by the Worldwide Church of God published decades earlier, who took it from the Seventh Day Adventists who published it almost 100 years before them. Each group uses the exact same quote, which was originally published in 1792. Since each of these groups is trying to prove Sabbath keeping as a necessity for salvation, they attempt to locate Sabbath keeping groups that extend back to the original 12 apostles. Thus they can establish their lineage and teachings linked up as an unbroken chain going back to the first century. 

One link in this historical chain is the Protestant group called the Waldenses. In Adventist literature, this group is called the “Sabbatati,” a supposed reference to those who keep the “Jewish Sabbath.” COG groups also credit them with keeping the Mosaic Laws and their resemblance to their movement in terms of doctrine and government.  

Examining “Sabbatati” and “Insabbatati” in Context

In LCG’s materials, this complicated passage (taken from the SDA’s) supposedly establishes the Waldenses in this way. Let's look at this passage and see if the Waldenses actually fit the mold of a Sabbath and Law keeping, group that resembles the Living or Worldwide Church of God. 

In the book “God’s Church Through the Ages” LCG states:

“What were some of the other doctrines taught by the Waldenses? Is there evidence that the early Waldenses were Sabbath-keepers? One of the names by which they were most anciently known was that of Sabbatati! In his 1873 work, History of the Sabbath, historian J. N. Andrews quotes from an earlier work by Swiss-Calvinist historian Goldastus written about 1600. Speaking of the Waldenses, Goldastus wrote, “Insabbatati [they were called] not because they were circumcised, but because they kept the Jewish Sabbath” (Andrews, p. 410). Andrews further refers to the testimony of Archbishop Ussher (1581–1656), who acknowledged “that many understood that they [the names Sabbatati or Insabbatati] were given to them [Waldenses] because they worshipped on the Jewish Sabbath” (p. 410). Clearly even noted Protestant scholars at the end of the Middle Ages were willing to acknowledge that many Waldenses had observed the seventh-day Sabbath.” (God’s Church Through the Ages, Chapter 3, heading: The Cathars and Waldenses)

First let’s understand what they are quoting here. The author of the LCG material claims J.N. Andrews is quoting Goldastus, that is incorrect. The J.N. Andrews’ book “History of the Sabbath,” is actually quoting another book by Robert Robinson, a baptist theologian who (converted to Unitarianism late in life) studied deeply into Christian baptism in the 1700’s. His book Ecclesiastical Researches, (which was published posthumously), listed a quote from Jacob Gretseri (written in latin) who was quoting Melchior Goldast (Goldastus). 

However when both LCG and Andrew’s references this, they fail to make that distinction. 

In addition, recognize that J.N. Andrews isn’t a historian as LCG claims, he is in fact an early Seventh Day Adventist prophet and preacher. He was a close confidant to Ellen G. White and established large swaths of Adventist prophetic interpretations. One of his main contributions was linking the United States of America to the two horned Beast of Revelation. He was the founder of Andrew’s University and followed White, supporting her false prophetic interpretations throughout her life. This isn’t to say that his historical work is flawed (however, much of it seems to be) but both of these individuals are verified false prophets, according to the Christian tradition, as their interpretations had to be re-explained once they failed. 

So when you are reading either the LCG or WCG literature, you are actually reading what was copied from SDA church history, not something from Herbert Armstrong or the WCG. Even though the Seventh Day Advetist’s are technically heterodox and not a cult, WCG uses these flawed explanations of an unbroken chain of Sabbath keeping churches that extend back to the original apostles, in order to substantiate their claim as the “One True Church.”

Examining the Seventh Day Adventist Claims

In order to better understand the terms “Insabbatati” and whether the Waldenses kept the Sabbath and held similar beliefs to WCG/LCG, we need to find J.N. Andrew’s work, the “History of the Sabbath, from the Seventh Day Adventists and begin tracing the sources to see if the book’s author provides any further information. The passage LCG references is on page 410. 

“But let us now see who they are that make these statements respecting the observance of the Sabbath by the Waldenses, that Robinson alludes to in this place. He quotes out of Gretser the words of the historian Goldastus as follows: "Insabbatati [they were called] not because they were circumcised, but because they kept the Jewish Sabbath."33” (History of the Sabbath, J.N. Andrews pp 410)

Here, Andrews reveals that the moniker “Insabbatati” comes from Robert Robinson’s work. This book, “Ecclesiastical Researches,” seems to be the source most Sabbath keepers use to prove that the Waldenses were Sabbath keepers. In his book, Robinson actually states there are 4 positions held by scholars regarding the title given to the Waldenses.

  1. Some of the leaders may have kept the Jewish Sabbath 

  2. They rejected the Catholic holidays (or Sabbaths)

  3. It was a derivative of the word “Sabot” or “Zabot,” which denotes a mark on a certain type of shoe that was worn by peasants. 

  4. It is the derivative of a Spanish word for someone who lives and travels in the mountains. 

“It would be endless to make a detail of accidental names: it is not necessary here; and it will be more proper to take them up as they fall in the way in other countries. The above are sufficient to convey a just notion of what is intended, which is, that to reason from a similar name to a similar faith is illogical. An example or two shall be added of such names as the fruitful geniuses if commentators have perplexed.

Some of those cheiftians were called “Sabbati, Sabbatati and Insabbatati, and more frequently, Insabbatati.” Led astray by found without attending to facts, one says they were so named from the hebrew word Sabbath, because they kept the Saturday for the Lord's Day (1). Another says they were so called because they rejected all the festivals, or Sabbaths in the low latin sense of the word. Which the Catholic Church religiously observed. (2) A third says and many with various alterations and additions have said after him, they were called so from sabot or zabot, a shoe because they distinguished themselves from other because by wearing shoes marked on the upper part with some peculiarity (3)….Several better reasons may be given for the name. The latin word “caput” a head was corrupted by the Spaniards into cabeca, and hence came “cabo,” a cape, a headland. They called these people “los incabats” and founded the word “enzabats,” meaning inhabitants of hills, mountaineers.” (Ecclesiastical Researches, Robert Robinson, pp303)

Returning to the source material, Robinson is clear that many of those who were led astray, not having the facts erroneously credit the Waldenses with keeping the Jewish Sabbath. He goes on to actually warn those who try to match a peoples name with their religious beliefs. (e.g.: Naming a group of people who are scattered in the mountains, across several countries with a tradition of which day they worship on.) He states that when it comes to the Waldenses, that is illogical and there have been many “accidental names” given to this group. 

Robinson goes on to write that the first 3 reasons he lists often trick scholars since they may seem likely but are not factually substantiated. From his research, the term “Insabbatati,” comes from the fact that this group of people inhabit the hills and mountains. 

On page 310, he sums it up best.

“That the people called Valdenses and Sabbatati originally inhabited this district is the most probably of all conjectures. This first a corruption of Caldenses, or the inhabitant about the hot wells, or Callenses the natives of the counties; and last from Sabadell one of the [local] towns.” (Ecclesiastical Researches, Robert Robinson, pp310)

However, when Andrews’ quotes Robinson, he summarily dismisses all his conclusions without giving reasoning. He claims that only the first two options could be supported and as expected, this conclusion supports the SDA position. At last he found a “Jewish Sabbath Keeping link” outside of the Catholic church in the middle ages. 

Dismissing Source Material

Perusing “History of the Sabbath,” it is clear that Andrews spends a significant amount of time trying to discredit Robinson’s conclusions in favor of his own. 

“Mr. Robinson gives the statements of three classes of writers respecting the meaning of these names, which were borne by the Waldenses. But he rejects them all, alleging that these persons were led to these conclusions by the apparent meaning of the words, and not by the facts...Mr. Robinson rejects these these three statements, and then gives his own judgment that they were so called because they lived in the mountains. These four views cover all that has been advanced relative to the meaning of these names. But Robinson's own explanation is purely fanciful, and seems to have been adopted by no other [Sabbath keeping] writer. He offers, however, conclusive reasons for rejecting the statement that they took their name from their shoes. [Examining the source information, Robinson details almost 10 pages of research on why option 4 is most plausible. Since that doesn’t support Andrews claims, he rejects it] There remain, therefore, only the first and second of these four statements, which are that they were called by these names because they kept the Saturday for the Lord's day, and because they did not keep the sabbaths of the papists.” (History of the Sabbath, J.N. Andrews pp 409-410)

Why Andrew’s rejects Robinson’s conclusions is never clear and he never addresses Robinson’s research on locations. He seems to dismiss it on the grounds that other Sabbath keeping writers don’t agree with Robinson. 

At the very least, Andrew’s is only willing to give his readers a partial quote from Robinson, removing the most salient material and keeping only the information that agrees with his own conclusions. 

It is also worth noting that Emilia Comba, a popular Waldenese pastor from the 1900’s, who is also widely quoted by the SDA’s and COG’s never mentions that the Waldenses keep the Sabbath, Holy days or other Mosaic Laws. He more closely aligns with Robinson’s conclusions and affirms the moniker of “Insabates,” was because of the “sabates (sandals) some wore in mountainous regions. While this isn’t Robinson’s conclusion, Comba identifies this name “Insabbatati” as a result of their clothing and not because this is a reference to the Jewish Sabbath. 

Consider the following quotes:

“The first name they are ambitious of, that of “Poor of Christ,” was not new, nor was that of “Brethren.” Catholics sometimes call them after the name of Waldo, their teacher; sometimes “Poor of Lyons,” or “Leonists,” to mark their origins; or again, Insabates, because of the “sabates” [sandals] they were in the habit of wearing.”

History of the Waldenses of Italy: From Their Origin to the Reformation, Emilio Comba, pp250

“We shall now add a few more details about Waldensian customs. The early Waldenses as we have seen were distinguished by a particular costume. They wore a woollen tunic, a cloak and a particular kind of shoes. They cut the upper part of these latter, so as to recall the apostolic use of sandals and marked them with a sign resembling a shield on account of which they were called “Ensabates or Insabbatati.” They were like the Nazarenes in respect that they wore their beards and their hair long. A monk whose halting jests have been already noticed mocks at them in his own fashion He says They find it more convenient to cross the straps of their sandal than to crucify their members, they crown not their head but their shoes. That sign was however a cross in the days of the persecution.”

(History of the Waldenses of Italy: From Their Origin to the Reformation, Emilio Comba, pp277-278)

Waldenses Beliefs and Government

Several other striking differences between the Waldenses from the Church of God movement is in their orothodox protestant views. Both Robinson and Comba specifically note religious practices that were common to the Waldenses. “Christian liberty” or “grace” was a hallmark characteristic of their congregations. This stood out in sharp contrast to the Catholics belief in the necessity of works and rituals for salvation. The Waldenses also believed God was a Trinity, and in His triune nature. While LCG adheres to strict law keeping for salvation, the primitive Waldenses resembled baptists in their belief around divine grace. In addition, there was no clear governing hierarchy or clergy class among the Waldenses, with women freely teaching in their congregations. Added together all of these characteristics paint a very different picture from either LCG, the WCG or the SDA congregations.

“To be convinced of this, one has but to consult the scriptures. There we shall also find that the good are in the minority. If we desire to belong to that number, let us learn to invoke the aid of the Holy Trinity, love our neighbor, and turn a hopeful eye upon the blessings to come. Our salvation depends on that. (History of the Waldenses of Italy: From Their Origin to the Reformation, Emilio Comba, pp227)

The new law is superior to that of Moses; the Sermon on the mount is a testimony to that. Jesus having Himself been baptized for the salvation of men, conferred upon His Apostles the power of baptizing and instructing every creature in the law of the Gospel. To his power He added that of performing miracles and foretelling the future. (History of the Waldenses of Italy: From Their Origin to the Reformation, Emilio Comba, pp229)

“The distinguishing feature of the primitive Waldenses is the doctrine and practice of Christian Liberty. The orthodox positively affirms “they were not guilty of manichaeism, and other abominable heresies.”...”Yes, replies Limberch, “to say honestly what I think, of all the modern sects of Christians, the dutch baptists most resemble both the Albigenses and the Waldenses, but particularly the latter.” (Ecclesiastical Researches, Robert Robinson, pp311)

“It’s not clear that the ancient Waldenses had any clergy...They held the priesthood in abhorrence. They allowed women to teach and laughed at the distinction between clergy and laity. (Ecclesiastical Researches, Robert Robinson, pp313)

Waldenses--Establishing a Link to the Apostles?

As we have seen, both the SDA and COG movements rely on Comba’s book to establish the Waldenses and their supposed Sabbath/Law keeping as a crucial link for church history to bring them to the first century. Unfortunately, these groups don’t heed the fact that Comba himself specifically warns against trying to use history to prove the Waldenses have apostolic connections. Shockingly, in the preface to his book on Waldense history, Comba makes the following warning.

“There has been desire on the part of some to extend backward their early history; with this only as a result, that it has been crushed out of all shape. The historian has filled it full of fables and traditions picked up at hap-hazard; then, as if with trumpet-blast and clarion ring, its antiquity was blazoned forth. But, although the sound re-echoed far and wide, it could not dispel the thick cloud that overhung that people's origin and early days. Flatterers are more to be feared than assailants. The former would have it credited or imagined that the Waldenses are of a patriarchal age--of great duration; that they are apostolic in name and in fact, but barren withal; that they had an existence, but always in the cradle; that they did not live with all the word implies, but slept for three, seven, or even ten centuries! It is quite possible to conceive that such an uneventful existence--if such could be--might well have passed unnoticed; what we deny is that such an existence was possible. We shall examine facts, and after all if we find the antiquity of the Waldenses to be less far reaching than has been supposed, it is none the less grand and venerable...There is an idea with some, that its origin may be traced back to the very time of the first preaching of the Gospel; but it is important that this idea be disentangled from a confused mass of legends…We shall find the first authentic source appearing with Waldo, and the disciples whom tradition has called by his name. From that time onward, we shall follow the sinuous course of their followers' history down to the eve of the Reformation. (History of the Waldenses of Italy: From Their Origin to the Reformation, Emilio Comba, Preface)

Cherry Picking Facts

In addition, another source commonly used by the COG groups is William Jones' “The History of the Christian Church, from the Birth of Christ, to the XVII. Century” COG’s regularly use this historical source to prove their apostolic lineage but it is clear from Jones’ own writing that this is foolish and impossible.

“It may possibly strike some readers with surprise that no notice is taken, in the following pages, of a multiplicity of sects which arose, from time to time, in what is called the Christian world, and whose history occupies so very large space in the volumes of most of our modern writers on this subject...In tracing the kingdom of Christ in the world, I have paid no regard whatever to the long disputed subject of apostolical succession. I have, indeed, read much that has been written upon it by the Catholic writers on one side, and by Dr. Allix, Sir Samuel Morland, and several Protestants on the other; and I regret the labour that has been so fruitlessly expended by the latter, persuaded as I am that the postulatum is a mere fiction, and that the ground on which the Protestant writers have proceeded in contending for it, is altogether untenable. It is admitted, that the Most High has had his churches and people in every age, since the decease of the Apostles; but to attempt to trace a regular succession of ordained bishops in the Vallies of Piedmont, or any other country, is "labouring in the fire for very vanity," and seems to me to proceed upon mistaken views of the nature of the kingdom of Christ, and the sovereignty of God, in his operations in the earth, as they have respect to it. (“The History of the Christian Church, from the Birth of Christ, to the XVII. Century” - Jones, vol. 1; p. xvi)

In short, two of the most quoted resources used by the COG’s to establish the doctrinal lineage through the Waldenses (or any other small sect) is tantamount to ignoring the vast amount of knowledge which establishes the contrary view. There is no “unbroken chain” of either Sabbath or Law keepers that can be traced back to the original apostles. Those who try to force history to do so, end up twisting or ignoring centuries of research proving a contrary view.

Other WCG Conclusions on Sabbath Keeping

The Worldwide Church of God also produced other pieces on church history. One particular piece written by Dean Blackwell, The Plain Truth About the Waldenses which was his PhD thesis at Ambassador College (WCG’s unaccredited Bible school in Pasadena, CA), is one of the more detailed pieces of literature the church produced (even though it wasn’t circulated widely). While I am not refuting all his claims in this article, it’s helpful to keep these few points in mind.

  1. The bibliography of his “research paper” is a veritable “who’s who” of SDA theologians and prophets. Much of the information in his thesis paper is lifted verbatim from those materials. The historical inaccuracies have already been vetted in other places and most of what Blackwell brings is not “new” research, just “requoted” materials from the SDA’s.

  2. The Waldenses themselves refute claims that attempt to connect their organization to the early apostles and do not teach apostolic succession. In fact, that was one difference between them and the Catholic Church historically. While Catholics see their Popes extending back to the original 12, the Waldenses hold to no such belief.

  3. WCG ministers who compiled their fabricated church history have already been caught specifically removing vital information in their historical stories, to substantiate their positions.

In the final analysis of the LCG’s quote in “God’s Church Through the Ages,” we can see not only do they obfuscate where the information came from, they also misrepresent the research in the original material as did the Seventh Day Adventists. LCG cited research that was lifted from a false prophet in a heterodox Christian tradition (SDA’s) and I find it curious that Armstrongism, which is quite outspoken on being the “Only True Church,” relies on information from such a source. However in this case, they seem to do so with ease, since it supports their narrative. Robert Robinson’s research is taken out of context, by both by J.N. Andrews and the writers at LCG. They directly ignore Robinson’s warnings and instead, insert their own misdirected conclusions, making it seem like theirs is the only conclusion one could draw. 

Conclusion

The moniker “Insabbatai,” is used by LCG, WCG and the SDA’s to prove the Waldenses were Sabbath keepers, to establish an unbroken apostolic link back to the original apostles. The authors they quote, almost always refute this conclusion. Obviously, the COG writers don’t report this part of the research. My conclusion can only be that they are either deceptively twisting a historical reference, hoping no one examines the source material, or they never actually investigated it themselves outside of official church literature.

This is a powerful demonstration of how leaders in these groups who teach this can be deceived by the materials they openly profess to have “proven” and never thoroughly examined where their own history comes from.

For a more detailed examination of the SDA/WCG church history narrative, I recommend Bruce Renehim’s book “Daughter of Babylon.” His work is exhaustive and compiles a variety of other source materials disapproving the church history story told in the Church of God groups. In addition, Comba’s book referenced above is also very readable and paints a detailed picture of who the Waldenses are. 

26 comments:

  1. Thank you! I found Bob Thiel's recent "research" on the Waldensian people to be appalling in its lack of scholarship. All he and the others in the COG do is rely upon old WCG articles and research which was poor at best.

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  2. There is little doubt that there has always been at least a few small groups of people who observed the Seventh Day Sabbath, throughout history since Christ.

    Peter Waldo, and the greater Waldensian movement did not observe the Sabbath, but there were SOME Waldensians who did. It is however historically inaccurate to describe the bulk of the Waldensians as Sabbatarian.

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  3. Does it matter what label a group identifies itself with or should it be the teachings they hold and practice?

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  4. I trace the disingenuousness of "Ambassador College research" to HWA's enamorment with Alexander Hislop and Immanuel Velikovsky. Those two authors set the standards by which Hoeh, and all other members of HWA's research team "proved" his doctrines, concept of history, and oddball theories. The proof texting, using quotations removed from context and quotes from primary sources which they had edited, plus unwarranted leaps to conclusions were characteristic of Hislop and Velikovsky.

    "The end justifies the means" is a very bad paradigm for research. It is preferable to reserve conclusion until one has followed the evidentiary trail to conclusion. What HWA/WCG/AC did to church history is worse than Piltdown Man!

    By the way, knowing this about my former church was a very bitter pill to swallow. I had trusted and relied upon their research in making the most important of life's decisions. So ingrained was the validity of their research in our consciousness that the splinter group members of today will still automatically reject accurate corrections to it. These corrections have not been secret. They have been published regularly both here, at Gavin's site, and several other once prominent sites and blogs. Our church literature was supposedly special knowledge given to us by Herbert W. Armstrong under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and it was a major depressive event to discover that it is just as bogus and false as his understandings of prophecy!

    BB

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  5. To my friend BB,
    Very well said. I also felt like I had been kicked in the stomach when I learned the beliefs I held had no substance. I had been conned out of about 30 years of my life. It was a bitter pill.
    Right on BB

    Jim

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  6. Thanks Jim!

    I am very surprised that these two blog entries about Peter Waldo have not spawned massive responses from our friends still in the COG community. This is a very big deal from several perspectives. In a perfect world, those from the splinter groups who read here would be demanding that their group's booklets immediately be withdrawn with sincere apologies, pending revision to more accurately represent the truth.

    If the leaders of a group would go to such lengths as to remove a sentence from quoted materials from a primary historic source, to make that quote support their beliefs, do we honestly believe they would be above manipulating the Bible in a similar fashion? Sadly, we've also caught them at that as well!

    These groups never, ever, acknowledge their founder's errors and sins. To them, HWA was a quasi-Biblical personality, "God's Apostle". As such, in their minds he stands above correction.

    BB

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    Replies
    1. They went off the front page so quickly that I doubt our casual readers saw them.

      Delete
  7. True that, and they were only front page on their sabbath as well.

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  8. Yep BB,
    I think that some of these meaty articles need to be reposted or stay front and center for a couple of days because sometimes the good ones like this get buried by good ones that are more specific to dave pack or bob thiel or Kitchens. Many COG members think Bob and Dave and Kitchens and Cox are off the rails and easily dismiss them whereas this article should give them pause regarding their own COG also being off the rails.

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    Replies
    1. Very well said 117. These articles address a much wider audience than those needed posts regarding thiel pack and kitchen.

      Delete
  9. Thanks for reposting this! I saw that Bob Thiel has a post about the Waldenses that he got published in the newsletter of the Bible Sabbath Association where he spreads Adventist/Armstrongite myths and outright lies about the Waldensese.

    Great job Bryan!!!!!

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  10. Thank you for posting this, and I give a hearty Amen to Byker Bob's remarks. The Armstrongite version of history is just as flawed as their interpretations of Scripture. As has already been suggested, however, do NOT expect them to acknowledge their error or correct their narrative about Church history. You will be sadly disappointed if you do.

    If anyone is interested, here is another post on the subject from my own blog:

    https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2020/05/what-did-waldensians-believe.html

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  11. Wow! This just eviscerated Bob Thiel's claims about the Waldenses.

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  12. Thank you for reposting this item.
    Been some excellent posts lately.
    The material we have today just was not available to us mere ‘common folk’ back in the day.
    I doubt that wwcog would have grown to the heights it was, if the internet was available back then.
    Keep up the good work and exposing the folly of Armstrongism.

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  13. I see nothing in this article that disproves anything. Lack of logic.
    The quotes state FACTS that the Waldenses kept the original sabbath.
    'they were so named from the hebrew word Sabbath, because they kept the Saturday for the Lord's Day (1). Another says they were so called because they rejected all the festivals, or Sabbaths in the low latin sense of the word. Which the Catholic Church religiously observed.'
    'because they kept the Saturday' That is written as fact, not a theory. At this point YOU start theorizing and you never return to reality.
    I'm just reading the text, not preaching.

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  14. We had a request on another post, since there is a learning curve associated with the Wayback Machine, for me to provide a url that could be cut and pasted, making it possible for readers to see some of the materials posted by Jared Olar at the old xCG blog debunking Bob Thiel.

    The one below is from Mar. 2006. I've spent several hours reacquainting myself with the materials there, and depending on how this link works, may share more.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060502012823/http://xcg.kingary.net/2006/03/24/round-the-mulberry-bush-part-seven

    If there are still remaining problems in accessing this material, perhaps I can email it to Gary. I'm also going to attempt to do the same thing with the excellent series on Silenced which just plain vaporized British Israelism.

    Hope this helps, and am interested in feedback from those who check it out.

    BB

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  15. Max - i think you did not read carefully enough. The commentary seeks to explain why Andrews a SDA is unreliable - said to be quoting an author named Robinson. The author of the post then examines more about that author Robinson and comments what he actually did find - and it wasn't that they were sabbath keepers.
    Should doubt persist one option may be to contact the Waldensians who still exist today so far as i know and inquire of them, from their annals, if at any time they were sabbath observers.

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  16. There is a difference between theology and praxis. Praxis does not establish theology. It is the other way around. Theology should be the root of praxis.

    What if we could incontrovertibly establish an unbroken chain of Sabbath-keeping congregations scattered throughout many countries and spannning the last 2,000 years? What if someone even discovered that some of these congregations back during the Middle Ages were holding services that included a sermonette, special music and a sermon. What if these congregations were discovered to be producing literature about the prophetic meaninig of then currrent events? Would this in some way credential modern Millerite-derived Armstrongism? No it would not.

    The praxis over history does not provide a bona fides to this hypothetical movement because the movement is not supported by Pauline theology. Just like all kinds of pseudo-history that supposedly establishes British-Israelism does not trump genetics. If such a chain of Sabbath-keeping denominations could be found in history, it would be a more credible theological argument that this is the persistent influence of the First Century Circumcism Party.

    Scout

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  17. This theory regarding a continuous chain of esoteric groups reminds me of little "protest" parts that some bikers at one point in the history of custom motorcycles would put on their choppers in order to just barely comply with state laws and regulations. The law required rear view mirrors. It was a safety requirement. Little dentists' mirrors, ridiculously used by some, were absolutely useless, but if pulled over, the rider could point to them and claim to be in compliance.

    If you take the history of the little Old Covenant Christian groups (for lack of a better term) which some sabbatarians have cobbled together specifically to "prove" that their own doctrinal approach was correct and has always existed, and if you compare that with the immense influence, throughout the past 2,000 years that the actual church which grew from Paul's gentile churches as Christianity transitioned from being exclusively a Jewish phenomenon, you must ask yourself, what was the very purpose of Jesus Christ? It seems obvious when reading the New Testament that doors would continue to be opened, and that in spite of torture and martyrdom, this movement was growing and overtaking the known world at that time. It was not happening beneath a bushel basket! You cannot deny the tremendous influence Christianity (the Way) was having simply because the Jewish Christians gradually died out and the influence of the gentile Christians became greater. When the Temple was destroyed in 69-70 CE, the Jewish diaspora began, and the Jewish Christians were affected just as deeply as were the "Jewish Jews". Even prior to that, the Jewish Christians were so impoverished that Paul was taking up a collection from the gentile Christians to help relieve their suffering. Sunday keeping, coupled with observance of Noahide law was reason enough for Christians to be martyred by the most savage of Roman Emperors. Ignatius and Polycarp, disciples of Apostle John, were amongst those martyred. It wasn't just sabbath keepers who were being tortured. Sunday keeping ones were martyred right along side of them. Jewish Christians died out, but the influence of Gentile Christians grew, taking a quantum leap forward with Constantine, and providing a moral influence upon the world unlike anything in history, one that has persisted into the present.

    Little invisible, or semi-invisible groups are like the protest mirrors mentioned above. They are for the sole purpose of saying that they are there, and in the greater scheme of things, were nearly useless. In HWA's case, whether or not they actually existed or were who and what he said they were, they were used to give the WCG an historic basis and perspective, as in "look what they led to!" One of HWA's evangelizing techniques was to knock down, and destroy the credibility of the long term, well-established and recognized Christian groups of today. He even destroyed the credibility of the COG group from which he came, by labeling them as "Sardis". He created the illusion that the truth, and salvation itself, were only available through him and his church. When one digs deeply enough into the history and the actual facts, one realizes that that was simply untrue. And it is much less true decades after his death, of the microscopic little remnants from HWA's once sizable empire.

    BB

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  18. "These groups never, ever, acknowledge their founder's errors and sins. To them, HWA was a quasi-Biblical personality, "God's Apostle". As such, in their minds he stands above correction."

    Well put BB. Reading the dissident sites of other Christian denominations, one finds the same story. What these church leaders heartlessly exploit is the deeply ingrained habits that their members acquired during their formal education. These are:

    1. The teacher is always right. Considering that they define the relatively narrow sliver of information that they teach, it can't be otherwise.

    2. The teacher has all the answers. Again, as in the above, their words are like words from God's mouth for the subject matter taught.

    3. The teacher is superior to the students, so the teacher should not be doubted. Considering the age disparity in elementary or high school, this is hardly surprising.

    4. The teacher wants you to succeed. It's to a teacher's honor for their students to get good marks, so there's no reason for them to deceived or harm their students.

    All four habits are used against people when they join a church. Their church minister and leaders fit into the mental slot of their old school teachers.
    IThessalonians 5:21 "prove all things" and 1 Peter 5:3 "not that we lord it over your faith" means that the "teacher" is no longer infallible, and that it's the responsibility of all Christians to "go solo."

    1 Corinthians 13:11 "Now that I have become an adult, I have put away childish things..." God expects Christians to leave their childhood habits behind them, and embrace their adulthood.
    But here's the problem. This requires hard work and effort and leaving the comforts of childhood. Many members refuse this, so they remain with daddy Pack and similar swindlers.

    This reminds me of the Bad Batch animated Star Wars series whereby most of the bad batch break free from their "mommy and daddy" superiors, but one remained behind. He preferred the comforts of childhood. The writers of the series understood this. The bad batch chose to die as men if need be rather than live a long life as children.

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  19. Inferior scholarship here. Not impressed. Lots of generalities from the writer, Caswell, whoever he is, mixed with a spirit of envy to disprove the COGs position.

    As Max said, he doesn't prove anything, just forwards a subjective view and surmisings and fails to convince us of the negative, that they weren't Sabbath-keepers.

    You have to go to the primary source material, the inquisition papers, etc. Even the Wikipedia page shows that Waldo met with the pope, who probably took "notes" about their doctrines, after which the Catholics "expelled" the Waldensians from the church community. It was the Catholics persecuting the little guy again for his doctrines. We see from the inquisition notes (which I believe I referenced under the previous post) that the Waldenses kept the Sabbath.

    I see the author doesn't expand on the belief that the Catholic church traces its roots to the apostles? No comments on that? So the group that traces its roots to the apostles turns out to be the powerful persecutors of the despised flock trying to keep apostolic teaching? How ironic is that?

    Oh, he also writes that the Waldensians STOOD OUT for their doctrines, in "contrast to the Catholics' belief in the necessity of works and rituals for salvation". I wonder how Lonnie feels about that, since Catholic doctrine is OK in his head while the COGS are guilty of this "sin".

    Lastly, re those (like JWT jr) who teach that the Waldensians didn't keep the Sabbath, we are talking about 800 years of history here! What will history say about the WCG? Did it keep the Sabbath or not? Well, it DID until it apostasized. It depends on what period and sources you are studying. Same with the Waldensians. Same with the Catholic movement from late 1st century to early 2nd when a new church began to emerge under Roman persecution and internal church dissent.

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  20. I've seen better material than this, and I've seen worse. But, the pervasive problem always seems to be that certain people either do not understand the material, or they feign inability to understand it. Same with dna, basic logic, and other factors which disprove British Israelism. But they certainly are capable of "grasping" the often wrong explanations presented to them by their ministers and in their church literature. The fact is, your typical Armstrongite has too much of his or her life tied up in their beliefs, and it's upsetting to contemplate the possibility that the beliefs are not founded on firm facts. They believe that their religion works for them, and that when there are problems, the problems are somehow rooted in their own personal attitudes and applications. To the extent that these folks are not out on the streets murdering people, or performing criminal acts, or stealing peoples' husbands or wives, or driving and killing people because they are drunk or doing drugs, I have no problem with them. I may not wish to be around them, or to hear their opinions, but so long as they at least correct the problems which existed in the past history of Armstrongism, such as beating children, or depriving them of proper medical care and allowing them to die of totally curable diseases, it's their business if they allow themselves to be impoverished financially, or believe all the lies about prophecy.

    I've said for years that in the afterlife, when we all receive correction, there will most likely be plenty of surprises to go around for everyone. Nobody knows it all. No human teacher presents the perfect all purpose solution to the human condition. Most people are very sincere in their attempts at faking it until they get it right.

    BB

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  21. Correct big time, 9:19.

    Here's the thing. The articles specifically about Thiel, Pack, Weston, Flurry, Weinland, Brisby, Watson, and the UCG and COGWA communities expose the false teachers and the horrible things that they are doing to members, and their minds. The wider scope articles you mention debunk those tyrannical entities and show the safe way out. So, Banned presents a multifaceted approach to the Armstrong problem.

    I just skim the articles on the splinter personalities to pick up on the latest outrages. They are a bit more extreme than what we experienced in WCG-classic, but it goes to show that the so-called leaders do have a deep sense of urgency, if not their individual members. The hook has not changed. It involves fear mongering regarding something that is so huge that humans just could not navigate it on their own, and portrays these church leaders as the gatekeepers/solution if you trust, financially support, snd obey them. And then they throw a monkey wrench into their own credibility with their insane proclamations.

    It is difficult to understand how there even are Armstrongites in 2024. I believe the last stalwarts are those who do not deal well with change, and who wear some really powerful blinders to block out the truths which would correct their beliefs and suppositions. But, having said that, it is their right, and their freedom to do so.

    BB

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  22. Would that WCG's mucketymucks and miniturds had preserved the Waldensian vow of poverty!

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  23. The COGlodytes enjoy discussing the errors of competing splinters, but disappear when someone's got the goods on them with regards to provable error in their core doctrines. As an example right now, their Ramadan is over, so they should be here in force. But, we're whistling in the wind about the Waldenses wearing sabbots.

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  24. BB,
    I kinda skim them as well, but I remind myself that the Packs, Thiels, and Kitchens aren't much removed from the other splinter cogs and WCG. For decades, Armstrong made false prophecies "under the authority of God" and ruled with the same iron fist as a Pack or Flurry (Make-up and not giving extra money to the construction of the auditorium imperiled one's salvation-- HWA's pastor general reports). His desire to be a "big thing" was more pronounced than Thiel's.

    It is remarkable that the COGs are still around, but they are shrinking overall and the same last names from worldwide days still are there in much of their leadership. I appreciate the work and service so many here have done over the years...articles and comments.

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