Bob Thiel's Preoccupation With My Posts About the Paleochristian Church
Although "Dr." Bob Thiel has written two posts and produced one video challenging my narrative about the First Century Church, he claims that Banned by HWA has mischaracterized his reaction as a "meltdown." Nevertheless, I am quite content to let my readers decide whether or not the Grand Poobah of the Continuing Church of God is obsessed with trying to disprove the alternative which I've offered to the Armstrong Churches of God's narrative about the Paleochristian Church. It does seem to me, however, that Bob's interest in attempting to refute my claims are related to a realization on his part that their narrative about the transition from Sabbath to Sunday is the foundation of the whole house of cards that is their theology. In other words, I suspect that Bob is smart enough to realize that the house of cards collapses when this particular card is removed.
Many years ago, Herbert Armstrong speculated that there had been a Grand Conspiracy engineered by Simon Magus and the Roman Catholic Church to hoodwink Christians into abandoning the teachings and practices of Jesus Christ and his apostles. According to this speculative narrative (which had no basis in Scripture or history), one of the chief means of leading believers away from "THE TRUTH" was the intentional substitution of Pagan days of worship for God's Sabbath and Holy Days by these evil conspirators - influenced, of course, by their favorite bad-boy, Satan the Devil! With a limited educational background and almost no awareness of the actual history, Herbie reasoned that there must have been a deliberate campaign to substitute Sunday for the Sabbath. How else to explain the fact that Christ and his disciples kept the Sabbath, while Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant Christians all kept Sunday? Completely ignoring the Christian writings from the First and Second Centuries which existed outside of the Biblical canon, he proposed that there had been a "lost" century, and that the Christianity which had emerged on the other side of this mini–Dark Age was completely different than the original - a "counterfeit" Christianity!
To support this false narrative, Bob has discounted and/or distorted all of the Scriptures and historical records which contradict it. For Bob, the Jerusalem Council referenced in the book of Acts did not eliminate Torah observance for Gentiles. For Bob, the Didache, the epistles attributed to Barnabas, and Ignatius weren't really speaking about the Lord's Day or Sunday - the translators had simply gotten it wrong - they had mistranslated the original Greek into English! Likewise, he ignores the fact that for Justin Martyr to have written in the middle of the Second Century that Sunday was the day that Christians gathered for worship, it would of necessity have had to have been the practice for many years prior. In other words, it must have been a long-standing tradition of the Church by that time. Moreover, his failure to understand that Christians would have had very good reason to revere Sunday based on the Gospels and Acts - Christ's resurrection and the founding of the Church both having occurred on that day of the week! Likewise, he seems to be completely oblivious to the impact that the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple had to have had on both the Jewish and Jewish Christian Community of the First Century. Instead, Bob chooses to focus on the Bar Kokhba Revolt early in the next century (which I'm sure contributed to the further suppression of Sabbath observance).
Bottom line, the old Adventist-Armstrongist narrative about Constantine and the Roman Catholic Church changing Sabbath to Sunday is not consistent with the available historical evidence. The Roman Church's authority to set Christian doctrine and practice was NOT widely recognized until the Fifth or Sixth Century. Likewise, the Emperor Constantine's famous decree about Sunday observance is recognized by most historians as an attempt at making religious practice within the Empire uniform and regular. In other words, the emperor could not have promulgated a decree of that nature which would upset what was already the established practice of the vast majority of his subjects, Christian and Pagan. Hence, I would encourage all of the folks in the Armstrong Churches of God to do their own research on this subject, and I would also encourage them to follow the evidence - not attempting to prove what you think you already know about the Paleochristian Church!
For those who may be interested, I invite you to explore the following:
Notice this excerpt from Early Christianity by Gaye Strathearn of Brigham Young University:
Christianity did not develop in a vacuum. The early church leaders operated in a world that was ever changing and expanding. During Jesus’s lifetime, the apostles were directed to concentrate solely on the house of Israel, but the post-resurrection ministry was fundamentally different. Expanding missionary work to include the Gentiles was a difficult transition—difficult to transition away from the law of Moses and difficult to transition into the Roman world. As Christianity grew, its adherents began to be found in all levels of society. Even so, its growth also led to significant challenges. While the Roman Empire was strong, Christianity’s political separatism and refusal to participate in the imperial religion were viewed as little more than irritants. But when the empire found itself in a state of crisis, as it did in the third century, Christianity was seen as the destabilizing force of the peace of the gods that threatened to destroy the empire.
Christianity’s other major challenge arose as it developed competing theologies. Initially, those competing theologies focused on the role of the law of Moses in the fledgling church. As it increasingly expanded into the Gentile world, however, those theologies were gradually replaced by differing philosophical interpretations. The resulting posturing of different Christianities to claim legitimacy became a divisive element that the Emperor Constantine could not tolerate in his realm. If Christianity was to receive state sanction and be the means of uniting his empire, then it would need to be united. In the fourth century and beyond, this led to numerous councils whose primary goal was to orchestrate that unity.
Notice this collection of Early Christian Writings from the early Church Fathers
You can also find many of those same writings at New Advent's The Fathers of the Church
Notice this excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia Online titled Sunday:
Sunday (Day of the Sun), as the name of the first day of the week, is derived from Egyptian astrology. The seven planets, known to us as Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, the Sun, Venus, Mercury, and the Moon, each had an hour of the day assigned to them, and the planet which was regent during the first hour of any day of the week gave its name to that day (see CALENDAR). During the first and second century the week of seven days was introduced into Rome from Egypt, and the Roman names of the planets were given to each successive day. The Teutonic nations seem to have adopted the week as a division of time from the Romans, but they changed the Roman names into those of corresponding Teutonic deities. Hence the dies Solis became Sunday (German, Sonntag ). Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God. The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts, xx 7; I Cor., xvi, 2; in Apoc., i, 10, it is called the Lord's day. In the Didache (xiv) the injunction is given: "On the Lord's Day come together and break bread. And give thanks (offer the Eucharist), after confessing your sins that your sacrifice may be pure". St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Magnes. ix) speaks of Christians as "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also Our Life rose again". In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i.e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead".
Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix
Bob has probably never recovered from the last time someone with a much deeper fund of knowledge totally blew him out of the water. That was Jared Olar, as he debunked "The True History of the True Church" on the old Gary Scott blog xCG. It was so amazing, the ease with which Jared accomplished this with the depth of knowledge he had of that area of history. His approach was comprehensive, with everything he shared in proper context, as compared to the sound bytes and proof texts upon which the Armstrongist position was based. The debate wasn't even close. I would have imagined that Bob might have been embarrassed and ashamed beyond all repair, but in spite of now knowing the true facts, he was soon hyping the Armstrongite fantasy once again. By the way, if anyone has any doubts, you can still access that debate on the Wayback Machine!
ReplyDeleteA truly intelligent person, a seeker of the truth, is constantly learning, even if it means shedding some very cherished ideas. I understand the reluctance of Armstrongites to shed some of the teachings of a man they considered to be the end times Apostle. I sat in First Year Bible Class at AC listening to Rod Meredith claiming that one day, there would be additional chapters of the Book of Acts, and we would be in it. Richard Plache echoed this in Second Year Bible as well. I have no specific recall of Dr. Hoeh teaching us that in Third Year Bible, but Dr. Hoeh had a more cranial approach to many of these matters than the majority of the faculty and ministry.
BB
If you google As Bereans Did Blog, it comes up on the list which opens. If you the find the search box for the blog, and type in True History of the True Church. The entry for Tuesday, Oct 13, 2009 will come up. XHWA has collected some additional very potent facts about the early centuries which dovetail nicely with what Lonnie has presented. In the discussion in the comments section, I mentioned to xHWA the debate between Jared and Bob. He was able to locate it and provided a link at that time, but the link does not work any more because the server cannot be found. Wayback is the way to source that discussion at this point.
ReplyDeleteBB
There is pro-sabbath treatise on the 'Sunday conspiracy' by Adventist professor Bacchioccii called "From Sabbath to Sunday". Here are two negative reviews from Amazon:
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"Misleading
Reviewed in the United States on March 21, 2010
Clearly printed on the front cover, and on the third and fourth pages of this book, is "The Pontifical Gregorian University Press, Rome 1977." However, the book appears to be self-published. The author was certainly aware of this as he stated elsewhere that the Pontifical Gregorian University Press "closed down about 20 years ago." (Endtimes Issues Newsletter, No. 160).
The author appears to be claiming approval of the contents of his book by the Catholic Church. "Anti-Judaism and the Origin of Sunday," an excerpt from Mr. Bacchiocchi's doctorial dissertation, was apparently given an "IMPRIMI POTEST" ("it can be printed") in 1975 (see Newsletter No. 160). Yet, on the fourth page of this book is printed "IMPRIMATUR" ("let it be printed"). Further, if the book had been approved, why was there no "NIHIL OBSTAT" ("nothing stands in the way")?
"The protocols regarding the Imprimatur require a new one for every new edition, each new language a text is published in. It certainly does not apply to an expanded version of a text that contains new information and new assertions regarding the subject at hand." See Stephen Korsman, Sabbath Keepers.
Samuele Bacchiocchi passed away in December, 2008. I sincerely hope Mr. Bacchiocchi's Estate will clear this up if the book continues to be published.
Mr. Bacchiocchi's arguments regarding Colossians 2:16-17 are not made until the Appendix of the book. If the reader gets that far, these arguments do not convince.
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1.0 out of 5 stars Domingo is the Day of the Lord
Reviewed in the United States on July 5, 2006
There are other people in the world besides U.S.A, and other languages besides english. In Spanish the day after saturday is Domingo, which comes from the Latin "The Day of the Lord (=Jesus)", and in russian the day is named "Resurrection". The sun day argument for us is completly irrelevant. We know that God is the owner of each and every day. The day after sartuday is not owned by the sun. The saturday belongs to the old creation. The Domingo is the day Jesus rised from the dead and conquered death. It was so easy for Him to have risen on Saturday, and it was so easy for NT and post apostolic christians to say clearly "Saturday is the day of the Lord". But this is not the case. Domingo is the day of the New Creation and St Paul taught us "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation" (Gal 6:15). Let's forget about all the saturday as central day of christian worship. That day is Domingo, the Day of the Lord, Jesus. As St Paul said: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ" (Col 2:17)."
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My thanks to Byker Bob for reminding us all about that post on "As Bereans Did" (an excellent resource for exploring many of the falsehoods of Armstrongism). Likewise, I have done numerous posts through the years on this subject (some of which have also appeared here). Here is one from four years ago: https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-real-history-of-true-church.html
ReplyDeleteYou can always tell when someone has prevailed in a debate - The other side always goes radio silent! The Armstrongist narrative about early Church history has been thoroughly refuted. Even so, I am confident that we will continue to see this garbage history in print and in sermons, because it serves their agenda.
ReplyDeleteContinue to see in sermons MillerJones/Lonnie C Hendrix???? Thought you'd left.
DeleteAgreed, Lonnie! WCG did their version of "the election was stolen" sixty years ago. We've seen this all before. Bob Thiel is HWA's Paul Gosar or Tommy Tuberville.
ReplyDeleteBB
I think even comparing him to professional clowns like Gosar and Tuberville is ascribing too much importance to Bob. His inability to accept that he's not anywhere near what he wants to be is driving him insane. Even Meredith nailed him on that point with "your desire to be a "great one" in the Work".
DeleteBB wrote, "Wayback is the way to source that discussion at this point."
ReplyDeleteOK, I surfed around and found nothing. I am looking for the debate over church history between Jared Olar and Bob Theil. Wayback gave me zero. But I am not sure what keywords to put in nor am I sure that this debate actually yet exists or is something that has disappeaed into oblivion.
Clarification, please. From anyone. Thanks.
Scout
https://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/search?q=early+church+history
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry Scout My Bad.
ReplyDeleteOthers may be wondering as well, so, type Wayback Machine into your browser.. On my ipad, on which I use duckduckgo, second item on the list, right below the Wikipedia article is the site, wayback.archive.org. There are several categories on which you can click. Touch the one that says "Internet Archive".
That is very important.
In the box calling for url or keywords, type in xCG (name of the blog). Top site will be http://xcg.kingary.net/. Click on it, and you'll see a time graph along the top, the final page of the blog in 2,009 in the main body, and the entries. Scrolling downward through the articles is scrolling back in time. You can also use the blue keys next to the date in the timeline to check out the earlier entries, or touch a previous year and highlight it. Takes a little getting used to, but you can move forwards or backwards through the year, or up and down through the articles which appear below the time line.
I happened to find "Round the Mulberry Bush (part eight) dated Mar 30, '06 right off the bat. Working backwards from that point, I was amazed at the treasure trove Jared left for us. Virtually any page you land on, he's sharing big time! He really was on a mission from God to correct Bob Thiel's errors! And that's just the material from the captures. I'm sure there was much more. By the way, on an iPad, you can click on the individual entries or articles and email them to yourself, eliminating the possibility of losing them.
Hope that helps. Lonnie and yourself have done a great job, but it never hurts to have additional resources which provide further details.
Can we all have a moment of silence as we visualize Bob Thiel nervously visiting Wayback tonight? Anyone fluent in African languages who has time to translate???
BB
I tried all of this and got nothing. How about pasting the URL here for the specific page
ReplyDelete"The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts, xx 7; I Cor., xvi, 2......."
ReplyDelete************
There's not a stitch of evidence for this folly. In Acts Paul was leaving the area on the morrow, met with the "disciples", broke bread to eat, preached to midnight, went downstairs? to pray for Eutychus, went back upstairs?, broke bread to eat, and talked til daybreak, and departed. In Corinthians work was done: obviously not the sabbath.
It doesn't work that way, 9:13. If you use the old url's from when the blog was an active site, messages pop up informing you that the page or server can no longer be found.
ReplyDeleteI experienced the same difficulties as you are now with Wayback several months ago. It requires time and mistakes to learn how it works. This evening, as I was preparing the instructions above, I made several terminal mistakes and had to start over. After about 1/2 hour, I was able to go through the xCG blog just as we normally do when reading Banned.. Also remember, Wayback does not capture every single item as it captures the archives.
Also, I was using my iPad. It may not behave in the same way as the computer you are using. My experience with the Wayback Machine is that you have to want to find something really badly, at least if you are someone with my narrowly focussed computer skills. I know the software like the back of my hand for the machinery I sell and service, but am certainly not a programmer. I first learned about Wayback when Wade Cox caused the Painful Truth (and other COG-related sites) to go offline. My buddy John, who is a programmer and a damned good novelist, used Wayback to salvage the vitals, and put the site back together, only in a new domain.
BB