Have you ever had a minister in your church area that was honest and vulnerable and told you how life really was for him at that moment? Has you minister ever told you how human they are and the mistakes they've made?
Very few do, they know the consequences, and if they do you can be guaranteed that some self righteous church member would immediately squeal to HQ and demand that they be removed.
Here is a church pastor that has made a public admission and talks about the results of what that public admission did to him in his ministry and what it now does for him in his steps of healing himself.
Hi, my name is Chad, and I’m a ____
A god bigger than hell? Another Christian making up his own sanitized version of the god of the bible.
ReplyDeleteHint to Chad: Just find a new god. That way you'll have less 'splaining to do. Hell/Lake of Fire comes with Jesus. It's a package plan.
Paul Ray
In deference to not kicking a man when he's down I withheld commenting on his blog. It would have been too easy to say, "Dude, you have more than one addiction, you just don't know it."
ReplyDeleteIn response to this blog's question. No, because once you are ordained a minister into a COG, you cease to sin and are perfect.
Therefore no minister can ever admit they have problems, lest they be subject to the same abuse the "flock" is subject to when they counsel. Or so I heard, I have no first-hand experience with that process.
Thanks for sharing this.
ReplyDeleteSince I have a few moments, I'll indulge...
Anonymous - Hell/Lake of Fire does not come with Jesus. It comes with YOUR interpretation of him. Christians from the beginning have believed against hell. There's room enough for all of us.
Baywolfe - I just don't know it? Care to enlighten me? I love meeting people who know more about me than I do.
I also love talking to people who hide behind false names! :)
Thanks for sharing Chad. The cult we all grew up in lived and still lives in a world of black and white. Legalism is the rule of the day. Armstrongism is filled with ministers who are alcoholics and who have other addictions. The difference between you and them is that you admit it, they hide it. I admire your courage and my hat is off to you! Grace abounds for those that let it in!
ReplyDeleteGary
Chad, I don't have an "interpretation" of Jesus. The only information I have concerning the character, teachings, and dare I say the existence of Jesus (and his Big Daddy Jehovah) come from the same source of information that you have sitting on your shelf- The Bible. The Bible is clear concerning hell, or the Lake of Fire. So unless you have had some divine revelation, or spoken to Jesus in person, or privy to something the rest of us aren't, you are constructing a Jesus of your own imagining that simply does not exist in comparison with the Jesus of the Bible. Or cherry picking your way through the Bible.
ReplyDeleteFind a kinder, gentler god to worship. There are plenty out there.
Paul Ray
Very nice and thank you for being open in your position. In my experience, ministers must forgive the member for every shortcoming under the sun. It's in the book.
ReplyDeleteHowever, precious few times does the minister get the same treatment back. My experience is that members want their pastor to be, and demand being what they have no intention of being or doing. He/She is their sacrficial goat and when mistakes or humanity come along, out you go with all the appropriate scripture.
Ministry is a terrible position to but a genuine human being in. It forces one to wear masks and pray to God on High that no one finds out your just like the people you help or serve.
I know any number of current COG ministers who wear masks are in this terrible, "I hope no one finds out." I have been there myself.
Now it doesn't matter much and the past is becoming less and less of a burden. Everyone is just folk.
At the risk of sounding like Bob Thiel, here is an article of interest perhaps.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Everyone-Wears-Masks---Your-Pastor-and-Priest,-Your-Mom,-Dad,-Family,-and-YOU!&id=168861
Masks get stuck so tight that often they take a few layers of skin off when removed. It takes time to heal.
"You can't be anyone but yourself."
Dennis
Paul,
ReplyDeletePeople who say that a text written over 2000 years ago in a different culture in a different language (one dead) is "clear" are the sort of people who argued against abolition for 1800 years or who still keep women under their sexist thumb.
The word "gay" in 1960 meant something very different than it does today. And that's English in our own country! And you think the word "gehenna" (Greek) or "sheol" (Hebrew) is "clear"???
Don't be naive.
My final ministerial transfer put me in a state of intense (for me, as I was brought up never to show or even be angry) anger which lead to a ton of depression which led to having to get some help.
ReplyDeleteI remember a few bits of encouragement when visited by a higher up sent to figure me out.
I was told:
1: We're thinking of firing you
2: Yeah, yeah, everyone has problems
3: We think you are just hiding here in the hospital.
and finally,
4: we think you know an awful lot about Jesus, but we don't think you know Jesus.
The "Reconciliation" Department head wrote me and said, "We wish you luck and we will pray for you."
As close to "be warmed and be filled" i expect as anyone can come, and I was left to pick up my own pieces which fell apart even more the last few years.
My sister, a widow now from my full time former WCG Pastor just returned from the WCGracie Conference she was invited to attend. She told me who she saw and who were just so loving to her. Same folks mentioned above and who I'd probably punch in the teeth, in love and in Jesus name if I had a chance.
WCG and the Tkach changes pretty much broke my brother in laws heart and his death came right at retirement from WCG. I believe there was a connection at least on the subconscious level.
What's my point? Hmmm, not sure..ha. Ministers get eaten alive and the remains get thrown into the garbage heap, but warmed and filled I suppose.
I admire you Chad. You were able to hold together what I was not. I felt a switch flip in my head a few years before the exit and there was hell to pay, even if there is none. I had so many issues swimming in my head that I'm not sure just what was the final straw. The mistakes, in hindsite, were a way to block and deny what I could not change and could see was going to trash everything I believed in sooner or later, which it did.
Life is either tragic or hilarious. Guess I'll go with hilarious
I gotta put this stuff away and behind and stop going over and over it. Then I'll know I have made good progress and there was a point to it all.
"People who say that a text written over 2000 years ago in a different culture in a different language (one dead) is "clear" are the sort of people who argued against abolition for 1800 years or who still keep women under their sexist thumb."
ReplyDeleteHey, you're preaching to the choir when it comes to taking an ancient work of fiction literally. But you worship the god who is described in those very pages, correct? If there is no validity to the *ahem* doctrine of punishment based on your logic, then how can you be "clear" on anything in the Bible at all? O
"The word "gay" in 1960 meant something very different than it does today. And that's English in our own country! And you think the word "gehenna" (Greek) or "sheol" (Hebrew) is "clear"??? Don't be naive."
What did those two words originally mean? And what do they "mean" now? And what about the passages referring to punishment (whether eternal or not) which feature neither? What about the clarity of words that concern such things as resurrection from the dead? Unless you don't believe that the Bible is to be taken literally in any point, I feel that you are, as they say, cherry picking your way through the Bible.
Look, you mean well. You really do. You see the inherent evil in a god who would punish humans with death (fiery or no) for the crime of rejecting him. But you worship the god of the Bible (unless you have some other source that informs you who and what god is and what his desires are) and it is very hard to defend your view of god when the Bible describes a different sort of god. Like saying that god would never drown an infant, while the Bible describes a god who did. And if you reject those naughty parts as myth and metaphor, I can't see how you can, at least with any intellectual honesty, defend the rest as truth. It is much easier to get another god. That way you won't be put in this position as an "enlightened" believer chained to the "unenlightened" Bible.
Paul Ray
This is a conundrum.
ReplyDeleteOn one hand, a person who has successfully overcome, or has been healed of a difficult sin problem is potentially a good spiritual guide for others who may have an active similar problem.
However, I don't know how high profile a minister should be in copping to such sin, because in some folk's eyes the ability to be a spiritual guide would forever be compromised. Cop to God, yes! And, don't lie if found out. But should a minister publically announce his sins to his parishioners, especially if they were active ones during his ministry? As an easily understandable example, how would we have reacted if HWA had confessed his problem with incest, or masturbation? GTA, of course, never got a choice. What's the first thing we all think of when someone mentions the name David ben Ariel? Common sense tells us that these three eamples pretty much invalidated themselves as effective ministers, yet all kept right on preaching.
What some might call being discreet, others would interpret as hiding sin. Some sins, when they become known, put one at odds with Paul's outline of qualifications for a bishop which he shared with Timothy. There are good reasons behind these qualifications. They're good qualifications for any leadership position. They promote strength.
Without a doubt, we must all be willing to forgive. And we all have problems. There's probably a middle ground alternative to making oneself a lightening rod, unless one feels one has been called to minister to a specific subset of sinner. Some can reach folks that others cannot.
I don't think blanket statements or generalizations are effective in dealing with this topic. There are far too many variables and ramifications.
BB
"Some sins, when they become known, put one at odds with Paul's outline of qualifications for a bishop which he shared with Timothy....Without a doubt, we must all be willing to forgive."
ReplyDeleteAs a former member of one of GTA's little groups, I thought hard about that. The members constantly chirped about forgiveness, and those who didn't forgive "Mr. Ted." Anyway, on my way out of the group I finally saw the purpose of the disqualifications/qualifications that Paul (supposedly) addressed; it was all a matter of harming the Gospel. Yes, a "leader" should be kept to a higher standard for the obvious reasons, but I think the underlying point was to prevent the church, and more importantly the gospel, from being criticized on the behavior of the leader and so turn people away from the gospel and the church. T
GTA's followers never understood this, or ignored it. Who will listen to the message of a man who has just been caught smoking meth and having gay sex? None. How many people became unresponsive to my communication of "The Truth" when they found out the dirt on GTA? At least one for sure.
It depends on the sin, too. If it is an admission of some personal sin that does not affect anyone, or create public concern, then it is no big deal. But other things- gay sex and meth, or masseuse fondling, are public, criminal offenses that will turn people away. In that case: Forgiveness? Sure. Acceptance? Sure. Being a public figurehead of the church? No way.
GTA's croups were always more doctrinally liberal in most cases (on par with UCG) but when it came to inter-COG relations they were just as rabid as LCG, or PCG. The reason? Every minister, and member, of any COG outside of GTA's group had "refused to forgive Mr. Ted," and so was an enemy. I have heard it several times that minister and members in the other COG's where going to have to "explain to God why they didn't follow Mr. Ted."
Paul Ray
I am going to say this one time only. The personal attacks towards others that comment on the various posts on this blog are going to stop. I don't care if you are an atheist, agnostic or a believer!
ReplyDeleteArmstrongism has so distorted and destroyed how many of us look at God, the Bible, Christianity and spirituality.
Its a miracle that any of us have any sanity left. But we do, we are survivors and we left that junk behind.
Some of us though have continue on as believers in other faith communities where we are spiritually enriched, others may reject religion all together but yet are attracted to spirituality, and others know that they are atheists and have no need for religion in their/our lives.
Regardless of the direction we are in we are exactly where we need to be. It can be just as healing to be an atheist or a believer.
Most of my friends are agnostic or atheists now. When we get together we have some of the most incredible conversations, each listening with respect to the other.
I have been a fan of Chad's blog for quit some time now. He speaks plainly about the pain he has experienced by Christians who think they are right. He is not ashamed to speak openly about his journey, or to speak the truth to people that were in his congregations. His denomination chose to kick him out. He is a survivor that, in spite of all the pain and turmoil, still finds strength in a God he knows has never abandoned him. People have, but God has not.
Even if you are an atheist you still can have an understanding in your heart of where he is coming from. We have all been there as witnesses to the perverse teachings of the ministry and leaders in the church we came from.
As for me I am still a believer too. Not in the way that I ever was in Armstrongism, but now know that I don't have to have a clear definition on who or what God is or creeds and dogmas laid out in front of me. I don't need to have all the answers. My life is filled now with more questions than ever. That makes MY journey all the more interesting.
I invited Dennis to post his thoughts on his journey. I may not agree with everything he posts, but I find it though provoking and stimulating. Many Armstrongites coming here have never dared to question or examine what they believe. I hope his posts give them the courage to open their minds to start questioning. I look forward to his posts when he sends them to me. I look for the, "hey, I never thought of that before that way" point somewhere in his posts.
I facilitate a class each week on Hebrew/Christan scriptures, church history, and Christian thought. I start out every year with the new people taking the class, telling everyone that I hope they do not find answers in what we will be studying. I tell them that I hope they find endless questions. Being free to question is a freeing experience for many people who have come from evangelical conservative groups. I even have a couple of agnostics in the class. We all find we have common areas where we share the same questions.
Either be respectful of the other where they are at or I will start deleting some comments. I don't want to do that because I find many of the comments to be enriching and stimulating. Many times they add more to the stories that we all have in common.
Gary
Paul made a very large deal, in trying to prove as he often felt he had to, how bad he was. The Apostle Paul was either the worst or the best depending on the topic or example he was using. He was the least of the Apostles because he persecuted the church, (and at least caused some to blaspheme God if not killed them) He was the smartest pencil in the box, above all his fellows as he noted.
ReplyDeletePaul confessed to currently, during his ministry, to "that which I should do I do not, that which I should not do, I do." Whatever it was it caused him to label himself "a wretched man." He blamed the sin that was in him.
Conveniently he did not tell anyone what those thoughts or sins were, just as he would not tell anyone what he saw when he had his out of body experience and saw heaven or whatever. Too bad he wasn't a bit more forthcoming, but I'd think his admitting to being a wretched, sin filled man might cause some to wonder more than just admitting to his humanity.
Paul even beat himself into submission and I imagine he meant that literally, so great was whatever it was that had a hold on him.
If I HAD to guess, which I don't, I would lean towards Paul being a repressed gay male who knew he'd not survive in his culture being so. The evidence spoken by him and his view of women, marriage,reason to marry (to avoid fornication) etc point to something sexual in nature, but we don't know of course.
At any rate, I recognize BB's point and understand that view view well. It would depend on the audience attracted by the minister and denominational views of course.
The people who wear masks and feign disgust would roast such a confessor. But the same man would be loved, respected and have more credibility than ever in a group of people who understood exactly the struggle and wanted acceptance and forgiveness or at least understanding they aren't alone, which no one is.
I would bet Ted Armstrong, later in life, attracted those who felt a human kinship with him and the struggle. I would bet those that follow RCM would fit the former category and would be able there to refine their judgmental skills.
I know a few minister/pastor types currently, who are still pastoring, who have "fallen" for lack of a better term and it is not known to anyone and they don't know I know. If they were artists, we'd think it was cool and part of the life of an artist. But when they are ministers, well...just crucify them. It's why ministers struggle alone and afraid to talk about it mostly because trust has not proven to be very smart for most who do.
I tend to gravitate towards those who are more genuine and have had real life experiences and struggles. Others tend towards acting as if they never would ever be this or that and that the thought never would cross their mind...uh huh. This is my experience at least.
"Either be respectful of the other where they are at or I will start deleting some comments."
ReplyDeleteDefine "respectful." I've read over this thread and can find no personal attacks. All I have seen are observations and criticisms based on those observations. I certainly hope that you aren't going to equate "respectful" with "lack of blunt criticism." That would be a shame.
Paul Ray
"Define 'respectful.'"
ReplyDeleteI agree, Paul. I try to be respectful when I comment, but it's sometimes necessary to be pointed.
We atheists are constantly criticized for being disrespectful whenever we speak painly about the facts. People of "faith" don't like such plain speaking. They want us to bow down to them and pull our punches.
Greta Christina has written much about this subject on her blog.
I will certainly make every effort to respect the individual and recognize their right to be where they are right now (I've been where most of them are at some point), but I'm not going to "dumb down" my points or pull my punches.
It is my understanding of Scripture that if a person sins in a way which would disqualify him for the ministry before "conversion" that the person might, under some circumstances, still be considered for the ministry as a "new" person who has put away evil.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it is my understanding of
Scripture, that if a person commits adultery and other acts after baptism, they are disbarred from the ministry.
And as sure as hell, death, taxes, revenge and the fury of a woman scorned, if a minister commits such acts, there is no "David defense" and is to be permanently barred from the ministry.
Paul Woods of the Seventh Day Church of God, Caldwell, Idaho and publisher of "The Herald of Truth" goes one step further: No man who is in the church and is divorced can be a minister.
Why is it that in the Armstrongist CoGs, a minister who commits adultery on his wife while she is dying of cancer can set up his shingle and start his own CoG.
I've thought it over, and the Armstrongist CoGs have not provided one thing for me. All they have done is taken my money, abused me and worked to humilate me. I think that is true of a whole lot of other people as well. I have my doubts that those false prophets in any way qualify as "ministers".
"I've thought it over, and the Armstrongist CoGs have not provided one thing for me."
ReplyDeleteThey have given us all an invaluable lesson in self deception, the rejection of reason, and the knowledge that each and every one of us are capable of arrogance and evil. You can't pay money for that.
Paul Ray