Bob Thiel, Ever the Comedian, the Hobbit Talks About Women

Bob Thiel, is  he a Hobbit or what?  

Does he realize how stupid he still looks sitting in front of that crooked bookcase?  Bookcases that have doors on them usually only cover a couple of shelves on the bottom of the bookcase.  Look across the room at your book case and see if your doors go up over halfway as Bob's do in his videos.  Those doors extend up past his chair.  Everything about the image he presents is off kilter, just like his ministry.

He starts off trying to be cute and humorous about women in the New Testament.  You can hear his wife or some other female chortle along with him.  Then he starts flapping his arms, waving his wrists and laughing that it so is distracting to what he is trying to get across that you will quickly tune out after 3 minutes.

Bob Thiel's Vengeful god Is Back Punishing California With Wildfires

Bob Thiel's god is apparently on a rampage in California again.  Is his god so pissed off that he let a Kenyan still tithe money that it is punishing the State of California because Thiel lives here?  That logic is about as logical as Thiel's claim that his god is trying to wake the world up.

Wildfires are part of the Sierra in the summer. But no one has seen a fire this out of control since 1987 when all of California seemed to be burning.  http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-yosemite-fire-20130824,0,1432454.story?page=1

The Bible shows that God uses weather to get people’s attention. Sometimes to punish, sometimes to lead to repentance, and other times to consider that God, not humankind, is in control.

Wildfires have always been a part of the world humanity lives it.  It is a natural way of cleaning overgrowth to allow new growth to start anew.  Only because we have a hyperventilating press and a population that has moved into theses areas, are they in the news so much.   Then, coupling that with the whacked out view of a nutty Armstrongite spouting "biblical" passages and you have the ultimate godly super-storm of wrath and punishment.

Although California historically has wildfires, the Bible also mentions fire as a tool that God sometimes uses. Here are some examples:

11 The Lord said:
“Surely it will be well with your remnant;
Surely I will cause the enemy to intercede with you
In the time of adversity and in the time of affliction.
12 Can anyone break iron,
The northern iron and the bronze?
13 Your wealth and your treasures
I will give as plunder without price,
Because of all your sins,
Throughout your territories.
14 And I will make you cross over with your enemies
Into a land which you do not know;
For a fire is kindled in My anger,
Which shall burn upon you.” (Jeremiah 15:11-14)

12 O house of David! Thus says the Lord:
“Execute judgment in the morning;
And deliver him who is plundered
Out of the hand of the oppressor,
Lest My fury go forth like fire
And burn so that no one can quench it,
Because of the evil of your doings.
13 “Behold, I am against you, O inhabitant of the valley,
And rock of the plain,” says the Lord,
“Who say, ‘Who shall come down against us?
Or who shall enter our dwellings?’
14 But I will punish you according to the fruit of your doings,” says the Lord;
“I will kindle a fire in its forest,
And it shall devour all things around it.”‘ (Jeremiah 21:12-14)

11 The Lord has fulfilled His fury,
He has poured out His fierce anger.
He kindled a fire in Zion,
And it has devoured its foundations. (Lamentations 4:11)

15 There the fire will devour you,
The sword will cut you off;
It will eat you up like a locust. (Nahum 3:15)

But have comfort Oh distressed ones....the non-ordained and s self-appointed Chief Overseer of the worlds most import Church of God doing an end-time work, Dr. Bob is praying for you!

My family used to live near the area of the current wildfire and I know of people who are being affected by it.

Then we see the REAL point of Thiels article, those gays are the cause of it.

My prayers are with those affected by the fires.  I also pray that those in California will repent as worse problems are ahead if it continues to go in a moral direction away from the Bible.  California set a bad standard last Fall when it became the first USA state to outlaw attempts to convert homosexuals from that ‘lifestyle’ (see California’s Brown Signs Anti-Homosexual Conversion Bill)–the State of New Jersey recently followed California’s bad example (see Republican Christie to sign bill outlawing homosexual conversion therapy).  Additionally, the State of California has other issues where it is also setting very bad examples (such as the production of pornographic entertainment).

The same old drumbeat of Armstrongism marches on and on, thankfully the  drum skins are getting old and will soon break leaving these buffoons with nothing to scare people with.

E. W. King: The Most Important Thing The Church Does Is Stay At Home And Focus Upon One's Self

Armstrongism has always thought of itself as special and set apart.  God was only working with and was only going to save COG members in that great day of trial and tribulation.  The world was not to be bothered with other than to warn them to shape up or else.  Nothing else was done for the world because God was going to fix it all later.

E. W King the new and current leader of the REAL Worldwide Church of God proves that point with this idiocy:

The Worldwide Church of God is the center of Christian Life. We are the “body of Christ”. As true believers and those experiencing true conversion we continue to grow together and learn from each other. We are most importantly the Church at home, with fellow family members. The home is the sacred meeting place for Christian Life.

The observant Christian begins the day and ends it with prayer. All of our meals are accompanied by prayer and concluded with it. We eat the diet that our Heavenly Father advises. Our every week ends with Holy Sabbath rest. We as families come together in our homes on Friday evening and light Sabbath candles and say prayers to invite the Sabbath experience into our lives. This is consistent from childhood to adulthood. We also observe all of God’s holy festivals. As family and friends come together God is praised and fellowship begins. Our children are taught the moral commandments of God and experience the importance of family life. We learn that ALL LIFE is precious. 

The entire life cycle of the child revolves around God’s church. From baptism to weekly Sabbath experience, from holy festival to holy festival, from eating to sleeping, from praying and talking with mom and dad, husband and wife - we experience God’s love like no other people on this earth. Home worship is extremely important. Preparing our children to one day marry as God has ordained is extremely important. We pray and worship without ever having to leave our homes to go to some fancy building.

That's rgith, clos eyourselves up on your homes, homeschool your kids, only read boks written by Herbert Armstorng, associate only wiht your closest church members and above all NEVER, NEVER help the world!

Many denominations today have lowered the standard of God. They do this to get members. The true Church of God is not worried about membership numbers. The true Church of God will always be a remnant. [Revelation 12:17] We should all pray for courage to talk with others about the true gospel of the Kingdom. Only God’s coming kingdom will solve all of our problems. In the mean time we can rest in His one true church. This Devil-ruled world does not want the Good News of the Kingdom or the laws of our Great God. Truly obeying all of God’s laws will indeed bring health and healing on all levels.

Malm's New Fundraising Cash Cow To Milk The Brethren With

James Malm, he who is NOT starting a church, has conned some of his acolytes into setting up a "charity" that will keep him in his apartment so he does not have to go out and get a job now.  Only last year was he complaining about being low on funds and needing support.  Today, it is official.  SEND IT IN!  NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With his new money  miking machine, his new COG empire can quickly arise.

Feast sites are planned, weekly broadcasts are being made, tithes and offerings are coming in, life couldn't get any better!  Pretty soon he will be jetting around the world with his message to world leaders about a "strong hand from the Old Testament."  Money will be available for Steuben gifts, suites at Raffles will be booked. Oh the life of an Armstrongite cult leader....

Life has been rough for Malm lately.  He is in desperate need for cash.  He has not been able to receive his income stream and he needs it now.  With his feast in Oregon coming up, his travel and lodging there, he must book the finest establishments as possible.  No more Motel 6 for him.  Super 8, here he comes!

CONTRIBUTION INFORMATION
Some folks in Oregon have completed the formation of a tax exempt fund raising organization, which will be used to fund the preaching of the Gospel.   These folks are long time visitors to our sites and long time supporters.
All contributions to   Gospel Outreach International   will be tax deductible in the United States.  These funds will then be provided to me for the preaching of the Gospel as I see fit.

All contributions from OUTSIDE the US may be made using Paypal on the sidebar, or through the mailing address in Canada.   LINK  See the FAQ’s page.

Residents in the United States should send checks made out to   Gospel Outreach International for taxation purposes.
Donations through Paypal at this site, are NOT tax deductible in the United States.

The mailing address is as follows:

Gospel Outreach International
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Grants Pass, OR 97526
Please remember that I had asked people to wait for this for their own tax benefit, and I have received almost no funds for some time.  With Feast and other expenses, funds are urgently needed.
It has been my experience that US Priority Mail is no faster than regular mail, so don’t waste money on that.

Bob Thiel Has A Kenyan Deacon Who Is Conning Him and Various Churches of God for Money

Poor Bob Thiel, being doubly blessed apparently has not given him any double insight into the types of "leaders" he has preaching for his personality cult.  In order to increase his numbers and look like he is doing a worldwide work, Thiel embraced a lot of Africans who claimed they wanted to join his group.  It turns out that they were only after money. Instead of a Nigerian money scam going on, it is a Kenyan money scam. 

Life can't get any more delicious....Thiels tithe money has been conned from him.

James Malm has an article on his blog today about Kenyans who are conning various COG's into giving them money.  They are contacting various COG's telling them that they are a longtime COG members and need financial help.   Kenya, A Warning to The Church of God

On August 19th, in a phone conversation with James Russell, of the Church of God in Truth, “Prove All Things”;  it was discovered that their Nyandiwa Scout Camp [Feast Site]arrangements had fallen through, but they weren’t aware of it in time to withdraw the announcement from being published in their magazine.  

In another unrelated search, it was discovered that a George Otieno was listed as a deacon in the “Continuing Church of God”, led by Bob Thiel.  Otieno is named as a ‘deacon’ in his organization, and is a representative for Thiel (and apparently Russell’s the Church of God in Truth, “Prove All Things”.) simultaneously. 
 
Otieno had contacted Thiel for the first time in about February of 2012 (claiming to have been a long-time member of the WCG / UCG / LCG over time).   Bob Thiel, until August 20th, was not aware of these other affiliations.  

He today (8/21) indicated that he’d found that George Otieno was nephew of Lukas Ogada.  We have long known that Polycal Ormondi Ogalo is also nephew of brother Lukas.  Just this morning (8/21/13) Simon Muthama, rep. for the Living Church of God in Kenya, wrote indicating that Polycap Ogalo and George Otieno are brothers.  

Thiel indicates that his sponsored Feast site was not Nyandiwa.  But, that George Otieno was the contact person for his site at Homa Bay!  The Continuing CoG website lists the location as the Prudence Hotel in Homa Bay.

We are at present drawn to conclude that these men were colluding to draw support from our two organizations, the CCoG-GJ and CoGit (and perhaps others).  When CCoG-GJ balked at sending $17,800+, the deal fell apart. 

The Blatant False Prophecies of Armstrongism That COG's Love To Ignore

A COG False Prophet

This letter was on Exit and Support.  While it is from an exUCG member, it applies to COG members in all the splinter groups who know about but don't talk about HWA and his failed prophecies.  He is highly regarded by most, but a lot don't like to bring him up now at all:

Blatant False Prophecies:

August 5, 2013
I was wondering if you still have Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web book by David Robinson available in PDF form? I think it would be helpful.
We have stopped attending with United Church of God after reading some articles on the history of the WCG and HWA's failed prophecies. I had to really stop and think, "How could God endorse such doctrine proposed by a man who made blatant false prophecies?" UCG never talks of it's relationship with Armstrong. --No longer attending UCG

Here is a list of 209 failed prophecies of Armstrongism 

Garner Ted Fan Sends Everyone An Invite

Kerry Waghorn Charictures

I know this dude was trying to be serious (at least I hope he was) but this is hilarious.  He is responding to a post from May of 2012, Garner Ted Melodies "Consider the Lilies" and "Jerusalem"

No one knows who runs the CGI now, nor cares.  The world could care less about David Antion.  He only appeals to older WCG members.  Antion is far more successful as a marriage counselor for  worldly pagans than he ever has been as a minister.  Every single prophecy GTA uttered has been a failure, and it only takes ONE failure, according to scripture, to discredit a prophet.  And Mark Armstrong?  Who or what is he?  You have to look long and hard on the GTA web site before you ever find out that GTA is dead and Mark is now the leader.  He leads another dying COG that is only putting putting money in his and mommy dearests pockets.

Where are we in world events and Bible prophecy? Call the offices of Garner Ted Armstrong and The World Tomorrow! Dial 1-(903) 561-xxxx OR 1-(865) 774-xxxx right NOW!   Live reps available 24/7/365 to take your orders for FREE DVD's, CD's, Books, etc. absolutely FREE of charge, no cost, never any obligation!

For 7 decades Herbert W. Armstrong and his son Garner Ted Armstrong told the world THE PLAIN TRUTH and The Good News true biblical prophecies Christ HIMSELF taught concerning His return to EARTH and establishment of God's GOVERNMENT - the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, in The WORLD TOMORROW!

www.cogwwm.org

www.garnertedarmstrong.com

www.davidantion.com

Call now for your FREE Christian materials, and feel free to ask to speak personally with Mark Armstrong, eldest grandson of Herbert W. Armstrong and son of Garner Ted! And thank you for your thoughtful time, comments and remembrance of HWA, GTA and the work God used them to accomplish! God Bless!

1997 Prophecy on Why the Church of God Movement is Doomed to Irrelevancy

This article has been floating around on the internet this past week or so.  Several have sent it to me.

Why The Church Of God Movement Is Doomed To Irrelevancy
(Written in 1997 on WCGnet))

What is the future of the WCG and its offshoots? Can good fruit come from a bad tree? The history of the Armstrongist movement shows that the answer is no. The current state of the church of God groups tends to confirm this. Fewer and fewer people are attending the WCG as dissatisfied former members stay away. As it turns out, the United Church of God isn't so united after all. Every few months we hear one congregation or another splitting, with one group establishing their own fellowship. The Global church continues to struggle along with its financial difficulties. And the Philadelphia church will not grow as the policy of its ministry seems to be to disfellowship one old member for every new member that joins.

In the future, the churches of God will continue to experience further decline and
fragmentation. Eventually, the large groups will shrink into insignificance, and most church of God members will belong to small, independent congregations. Armstrongism is a heresy built on a foundation of lies. It will not survive close scrutiny. Those whose critical thinking faculties have been dulled from years of mind control will remain. Those who are able to think for themselves will eventually move on as they discover that their belief system is a hoax.

When I say the membership will shrink, I am speaking of the lay members. The ministry is a different story. In society at large, when a group of people receives its support from transfer payments, the recipients are called welfare cases. When you have the same situation in the churches of God, the recipient group is called "the ministry." The church of God ministers are in no hurry to go anywhere. Heavens to Betsy, can you imagine one of them actually working for a living?

The United Church of God, An International Association is a case in point. Scores of WCG ministers left when the New Covenant doctrines were promulgated. What did they do? They formed an organization to collect tithes and redistribute the funds among themselves. Lay members were excluded from the governing body. The "ministers" distribute the funds as theysee fit. This doesn't sit well with some of the members (incredibly, some fully support the UCG governing body and feel the rest of the membership should be submissive. Some people never learn.), as the recent defections show.

The churches of God are doomed to shrink into insignificance. This is a good thing.
Armstrongism will always have a following as lazy individuals will choose not to exercise their minds and fully examine their belief system. But also, the decline of Armstrongism is means fewer will have their lives wrecked by following this pernicious ideology. Here, then, are the reasons why Armstrongism will wither away:

 For Worldwide Church of God (WCG) offshoots that still subscribe to Armstrongism:

1. The theology itself. 

For years the Armstrongist theology was shielded by an official embargo. Members were strongly discouraged from studying religious issues independently. They were to be dependent on the official pronouncements of headquarters, especially from Armstrong himself, and on the teachings of the local ministry. However, Armstrong's theology is so full of holes that it cannot survive close scrutiny.  Because of the fragmentation of the churches in recent years, the embargo on outside religious information has weakened considerably. More and more members will study the Bible independently and, if they are open minded, they will inevitably conclude that Armstrongism is nonsense. They will leave the Armstrongist strongholds, hopefully for theologically sound Christian fellowships.

2. The incompetence of the ministry. 

From the lamentations we've been hearing since the closing of Ambassador College/University, you would think that we were losing one of the world's great institutions of learning. Actually, Ambassador College would be a laughing stock if not for the harm inflicted on the WCG membership by AC graduates. Ambassador was a catastrophe, and the trail of the church of God movement is littered with the human wreckage left behind by Ambassador College graduates. The world is better off for its passing. Most WCG and ex-WCG ministers are nothing more than little autocratic know-it-alls whose knowledge of the Bible is limited to what they learned from Armstrong himself or one of his stooges. In other words, they don't know very much, and most of what they do know is wrong. WCG ministers were taught to fudge answers to the difficult questions they would be asked about the inconsistencies in WCG theology. A really effective minister had to think on his feet and come up with convincing answers in a hurry. Having known many such ministers, I can assure you that they were very, very good at it. Another thing they are good at is turning the tables on you. If you have painted them into a theological corner, they are so skilled in debating techniques that they will have you on the defensive in no time, and will soon have you apologizing for questioning them. Finally, they had to be able to isolate those who were incorrigibly anti-Armstrong. If the malcontent couldn't be defeated by debating techniques, the minister had to isolate him from the membership, lest he poison them with dissident ideas. All this was necessary to keep the tithes and offerings flowing freely through the money pipeline, lest Herbert Armstrong be forced to sell his jet and fly business class like everybody else. While all of this is helpful in ensuring a subservient, unquestioningly loyal laity in Armstrongist groups, these "skills" are of no use in genuine Christianity. They are mind control techniques, not ministering techniques. Which brings us to our next point.

3. Today's WCG and ex-WCG ministers are not as adept at mind control as Herbert W. Armstrong was. 

Nothing is more disturbing to an autocratic minister than a member who thinks for himself. Love him or hate him, if there is one thing Joe Tkach, Sr. did for church members, it's that he made them think for themselves. He forced them to take a stand for or against Armstrongism. For the first time in years (possibly for the first time in their lives if they were born into the church) church members had to make a decision on their own. They had to decide whether to stay with the WCG or leave. Unfortunately, some made their decision and stopped thinking, submitting to whatever organization with which they allied themselves. But some continued to think independently. All WCG and ex-WCG members have been lied to, and there is not nearly as much trust for the ministry as there once was. Today, you'll rarely hear anyone say "If Mr. [fill in the blank: Hulme, Tkach, Meredith] tells me to jump, I ask how high." (Some may say that in Flurry's church, but they'll probably get disfellowshipped anyway.) In the past, the ministers would answer questions like "Is it OK to cook on the Sabbath;" or "What is the proper hair length for men?" Now they have to answer questions such as "Is it true that ministers only paid one tithe instead of three, and they got most of that back as an allowance to keep the Feast;" or "Did Herbert Armstrong really commit incest?" Failure to answer those questions satisfactorily is usually a signal to the member that it is time to move on. The various churches of God may be able to lure church members (or will they? See point 4.), but they will not be able to hold them because they are deficient in the art of mind control.

4. Today's churches of God don't sell their product as well as Herbert Armstrong did. 

The followers of Armstrongism are an aging group, and there are few coming into the churches to replace them. True, some of the church of God splinters report growth in membership. But they will admit that the vast majority of their new members are defectors from other church of God groups. There isn't very much new blood coming into the church of God movement. Basically, the various churches of God are simply passing members back and forth between themselves. Time will reduce their numbers. As the older members die off, and as dissatisfied members leave, the churches will shrink. Once again, this is not a bad thing. The various churches of God embrace one version or another of Armstrongism, a harmful heresy. The fewer Armstrongists there are in the world, the better.

-----Anonymous

On The Current State of the Churches of God

The web blog As Bereans Did has an excellent detailed article up about why the COG's are not growing.  We have long held here that all the COG's are not bring in new members, that young ones are leaving, and that the only exist through splinter poaching.

One thing I have brought up before is that there is not a single COG out there that tried to reinvent it's self when it formed a new group.  It was their golden opportunity to become something new and alive.  Instead every single one of them had to imitate HWA and every thing he did.  They name their colleges after him, they name their magazines after his, they rewrite or plagiarizer his books, they buy his memorabilia and they live in the past.

The article goes over these major points that most people who are critical of the COG realize:

1) Availability of information on the Internet.
2) Lack of novelty.
3) Lack of charisma in leadership.
4) Sheer number of COG groups to choose from.

Some minor supporting points include:
- In-fighting between splinters.
- Aging membership.
- Failure to reach out in today's methods.

To me the one splinter group that had the biggest chance of doing something right was UCG.  They had a golden opportunity to start brand new, reinvent itself, and do a major "work."  However it did not accomplish that.  It now has splint into several different groups since its inception.

The article has this:

Armstrong was an advertising man. He knew the value of product differentiation. He knew what it meant to stand out in a crowd, and he knew what death awaited for any product that was just more of the same. He saw the appeal of British Israelism and the annual holy days. When he failed to really sell these and certain other notions to his branch of the COG7, he set out to sell them to the public. He had a niche and he had the know-how to capitalize on it.

Herbert Armstrong used his advertising experience to take his message to the radio waves. From the 1930's to the 1970's, most of the people who heard of the Radio Church of God, which eventually changed its name to the Worldwide Church of God, did so from radio programs.

What was that niche?

In short, J. H. Allen's British Israelism compounded with a few additional legal requirements created an attractive elitism. Toss on Alexander Hislop's concocted historical narratives to create a secretive conspiracy, and voila! It wasn't just about Protestant versus Catholic, nor was it just about the Sabbath versus Sunday. Now it was about being one of an elite group of people who were chosen by God to be given secret knowledge of a conspiracy stretching back 3,000 years, kept secret until this final hour before the return of Christ. Members of this elect group were called and chosen to fulfill prophecy by spreading the warning that doom and death awaited anyone not vetted into this "one true end-time church". This church superseded all previous churches; none of them would do. This was the final offer and it was only available while supplies last.

What a potent combination! Doomsday and Conspiracy. Fear and Pride.

Eat your heart out, Little Orphan Annie with your secret decoder ring. We have the keys to understand prophecy!

The problem with today's group of post-Armstrong leaders is that they have not learned the lesson of effective advertising.

They were told for so long that they had the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth that now they are in a predicament. No one boards a plane intending to be locked into a holding-pattern. How do you differentiate your product when you are more or less forbidden to change it and make it distinctive, and there are nearly a thousand other people selling the same thing?

The article then talks about the "charisma" of the current crop of COG leaders.  None of them, and I mean NONE of them have the charisma of HWA or GTA. Pack has proven himself to be lying narcissist, Flurry is batshit crazy and Weinland is in prison.

Most of the current COG leadership try to solve the problem of brand differentiation by heaping upon themselves titles and honors. "I am this or that prophetic messenger!" "I am going to train this or that prophetic messenger!" "I have the most pure and unadulterated continuation of the original."

Unfortunately this approach is almost entirely dependent on the charisma of the glorious leader. If you don't have a glorious leader with charisma, as Garner Ted Armstrong had in abundance, then you simply cannot win with this approach.

Herbert Armstrong's personal charisma was high, far higher than any of his remaining followers, but Garner Ted's was higher. It was Garner Ted that was personally responsible for the greatest increases in membership from the 1950's through the 1970's.

There was nothing in the entire organization or any of its competitors who could match him. He was handsome, intelligent, well spoken, had a baritone voice soft as butter, was educated in the areas that mattered, and you couldn't ask for better rhetoric. The women loved him. And through it all, he still seemed down-to-earth and approachable. He was a leader for the people. I tell you the truth if he hadn't been caught up in the church he would have been somebody.

Compare that to the current leader of the Intercontinental Church of God.

"Who?" you ask. Exactly!

Certain ones in the current crop of splinter group leaders have a portion of charisma, but they simply don't have enough. Their charisma is a flash in the pan. It may keep established believers, but gaining new believers is much more difficult. Cult of Personality can only take you so far. As with the Intercontinental Church of God, when the leader is struck, the sheep will scatter.

The universal method to overcome lack of charisma is to spend money. You have to have members to get money, then you have to spend money to get members. It's a catch-22. Not only that but you have to keep spending more and more money, which means you have to keep asking for more and more. There's only so long you can squeeze blood from that turnip. It never, ever lasts. It never truly can replace charisma.

Armstrongist COGs these days are stagnating and declining in attendance because their leadership lacks the charisma of old.

Read the entire article here:   Current State of Armstrongism

Bob Thiel Disappointed That COG Members Are Not Reading His Article About David C Pack

Poor non-ordained Bob, try as he might, he just CANNOT make the impact that he thinks he is making.  Like Pack, Thiel thinks he is reaching more people than any other COG in human history has ever done.  Like Dave Pack, he also is an abysmal failure.

Bob, like most of us, has been saying that there will be no large influx of COG members from the top three COG's into Dave's personality cult.

Bob also for some illogical reason seems to think he is one of the three COG leaders Dave clams will die by August 31.  All I can say to that is, dream on little guy, you are nothing but a pimple on Dave's plans.

Bob wrote an article some time back, Why Not The Restored Church of God in which he hoped to stop large numbers of COG members from jumping ship into RCG.  Bob was trying to influence people into coming into his improperly named Continuing Church of God.  Apparently no one is reading Bob's article and Bob is sorely disappointed.

Since my article Why Not the Restored Church of God? shows up on the first page when people do a Google search of the improperly named Restored Church of God, it would seem that there would be a massive increase in views if indeed, massive numbers were going over to RCG. But alas, that is not the case.

Kubik is UCG's New President

No real shocker there.  The same old party politics and manipulation still are the order of the day.

Robin Webber also lays out some goals that UCG is to be striving for.  These goals are the exact same things I have been hearing them say for the last 18 years.  For 18 years they have not been able to accomplish any of this. The only thing they have accomplished is division and upheavals.

Robin writes:

We held a retreat session for a day before the formal meetings to earnestly pray and talk to one another as to how to “grow in grace and knowledge” in conveying the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God in a compelling, loving, relevant and hope-filled manner. With today’s fractured and distracted audience, how do we best grab their attention, address their personal needs, and make them consider the great questions of life. Who and what is God? Who and what is man? Why was I born? Why would God even care? What does it mean to believe in Jesus Christ? Does it mean simply to acknowledge Him and experience a casual acquaintance, or does it mean to follow Him by surrendering every fiber of our being into His service? Those big questions of life must be matched by the ultimate Life-giver’s big answers that come directly from the Scriptures.

"Growing in grace and knowledge"  Year after year they have said this exact same thing.  For 18 years they have never accomplished this or learned to convey the message of Jesus to the world.  Until they surrender to grace and stop prostituting themselves to the law, they are never going to cross the wall they have built that separates them from  "grace and knowledge."

It’s our collective prayer and continuing desire to effectively preach the gospel in such a manner that will move people to change their lives and echo the apostle Paul’s words: 

“What things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His suffering, being conformed to His death, if, by an means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead” (Philippians 3:7-11).

Allow me to be clear. We are not out to “grow a church” by some worldly methodology, but first and foremost always desirous of growing in understanding the depth of God’s spiritual purposes as defined by His grace, love, law and judgments. When we understand that this is an ongoing activity till the day we die, then things begin to change in our lives, our families, our local congregations and our potential impact expands upon our fellow coworkers and neighbors. As we do our part, God will do His part in what only He can do—call others to understand His truth (John 6:44, 65)! The book of Acts informs us that at times He “adds” (Acts 2:41), and sometimes He “multiplies” (Acts 6:7). We must leave that to Him and “be about our Father’s business” in making ourselves ready as the Bride of Christ.

Since Jesus is not the focus of UCG's "gospel" message they will never make a huge impact upon their fellow coworkers and neighbors.  Because the focus is upon the law and not on Jesus they are not doing their part.  Because they do not focus upon Jesus, his word's, his teachings, or actions, they have to leave it up to God to do their work for them.  He has to go out and find the people to send to the doorstep.  Apparently he has not been to keen in doing that, by UCG's own admission.

Dave Pack: Ten Years of Making Scripture Mean What It Never Meant

Some Final Thoughts on August 2013 From a Restored State of Mind



 

I would like to take a moment to refine David C. Pack's view on "Why would God command the rebuilding of the House (i.e. The Temple of the 500's BCE) and not mean NOW?" which to him means during the month of August 2013 and culminating the last Sabbath of that month.

I think we can see that in the course of his meanderings over his role in religion and the role of the Restored Church of God in Ecclesiastical History, Dave has had to make the leap from the ACTUAL meaning of Haggai and the ACTUAL people it was written to THEN, to making it mean what it did not mean THEN to what it must mean NOW.  Review his Screeds 1-25 if you wish to see how this miracle occurred.



Following is key argument  and belief on why God MUST mean THIS August (Elul) and why it all MUST mean it as some vast 2500 year old ultimate fulfillment and meaning of what Haggai could never have understood.  After the huge leap of logic from Haggai's actual time in history to Dave's perceived analogy of the real meaning of it all, you can make Haggai easily mean what it never meant by analogy to many churches, ministers and theological needs of today.  Dave simply has woven his own tale and I suppose actually believes it or he would not risk what is about to come upon his credibility as "one who knows."

I will plainly state that Dave Pack is terribly wrong in how he has looked at Haggai's message to the literal remnant back then.  By his own reasonings of how it must apply to  him, his Restored Church of God and the WCG experience in the Wild World of Religion, the very book of Haggai must apply then and not today unless you just wish to make it one big analogy.  I don't think Dave is dealing with analogies.  But no matter.  The entire Book, including the seeming "Wonderful World Tomorrow" verses which any good COG type would take as Second Coming and Christian Jesus predictive has NOTHING to do with the Church of God views or what thousands of years later became Christianity which had a very bad habit of mining the Old Testament to explain what they wished to express and needed to define in the New Testament. 

 Please get this.

The reason many Old Testament scriptures seem to be so amazingly accurate and predictive of Jesus, his life and death is because the New Testament stories of Jesus and the many proofs of who he was to Christians are mined out of the Old Testament scriptures for the very purpose of telling a story that no one actually or literally knew what or when happened.  The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.(Occam's Razor)  They are not mystical predictions of the distant future.  They were written for the people then, addressing the problems in their culture and lives then and not today. **

For example:

The birth narratives of Jesus were written using the Old Testament to tell the story of Jesus birth which no one actually knew how it came about much less when or where. They were written to address the "then" problem and accusation that Jesus was a bastard and born of fornication. There are four "loose women" in one geneology, Tamar, Rahab, Bathsheba and Ruth to send the message that if God could use those women, get off Mary's back.  John 6 thru 8 is a reflection of this rancorous issue.  One would think Sarah, Rebeccah,  Leah, Rachel or Deborah might have gotten a bit more press.

 Matthew never read Luke's story and Luke never read Matthew's.  They cannot be the same story.  "Matthew" is the master of this in his birth story where he quotes and OT passage as proof of his NT story when in fact he used the OT passage to write the NT in the first place..  Not only that but he misquotes and misinterprets (by our standards) the OT to tell that story.  In short, like Dave, "Matthew" (the names were added to anonymous Gospels a hundred years later) makes scripture mean what it never meant. That may be acceptable to some, but it is not to myself and today we would call it fudging the facts and making up tales. Dave is fudging the facts big time and making up tales.  While Matthew did it, he knew he was doing it.  Dave is not in the "I know it is just an analogy and a form of Midrashic writing."  I am sure he does not know what Midrashic Writing is.

On the other end of Jesus life story, Psalm 22 is not predictive of what Jesus would say when he was dying, (It's not talking about Jesus to begin with) but rather was used to tell the story of what the NT authors imagined Jesus would have said dying.  It was a common practice and is also the reason you have great orations in the NT that no one could possibly have written down at the time or at least anywhere near accurately.  "John's" Gospel has Jesus making great speeches from John 13-17 because that is what he imagined Jesus would say doctrinally.  Obviously no other Gospel writer or Paul ever hear of these words of Jesus. 

Ever wonder, with all the disciples sleeping and Jesus alone and a distance away pouring out his private prayer to God over his impending death, exactly who and how someone found out exactly what Jesus said in his mind to God?  It is what a writer imagined Jesus would have said in such a time as that.  It was ok to write stories this way then.  Today, not so much without at least telling the reader what you have done.  If you don't, you end up on Oprah apologizing.

Unwittingly, Dave Pack is doing the same thing.  The difference is that Dave actually sees the Bible and the Book of Haggai speaking of him and it was written to speak of him.  He does not believe he is any analogy nor his position analogous to Joshua the High Priest.  He believes he is the true intended meaning of the old shallow meaning of the original Haggai back then.  The NT writers KNEW they were mining the OT writings to explain their NT Jesus, doctrine and experience. It's what they did when they did not literally know Jesus birth, life or death circumstances. It's why there are so may contradictions in the Gospel accounts and copying of each other's writings.  Matthew is 94% copied from Mark and Luke copies almost half of Mark for his Gospel.  Copying is not eyewitness accounting.  It is not identical experiences.  It is copying.  No Gospel writer ever actually saw anything he was writing about.  No writer says, "And then Jesus and I went to Galilee,"  or "And then as Jesus and I were talking, the Romans showed up really angry and demanding to know which of us was Jesus." 

Dave Pack is also mining the OT to explain his view of himself and RCG but to Dave, IT IS NOT KNOWN TO HIM THAT HE IS DOING THIS. HE REALLY BELIEVES THE OT HAGGAI LITERALLY POINTED TO HWA AND NOW POINTS TO HIM.  This is empty headed theology. This is insane. The Book of Haggai does not and never could point to a Dave Pack of Haggai's future.  It was meant for THEN by Dave's own arguments.  Why would God speak so plainly THEN to THOSE folk of 500 BCE if God did not mean THEN.  Dave's argument for Haggai today is bogus, concocted and addle headed by his own arguments.  As I noted, he can make any analogy he wants, but he is not making an analogy from all that I can tell. 

Notice his core reasonings on this:

 2) Directly related, why (or how) would God command the remnant to “Go…build the House!” (Hag. 1:8)—but not mean NOW? How could He mean some undetermined future year? Why would God tell them (twice) to “consider their ways”—but not mean that they should do this now? Try to imagine God saying, “Consider your ways, but take your time. There’s no hurry. In fact, take years to think it over—even though you have been out of My Church for 20 years! You don’t have to DO anything now.”

3) Also related, if God waited 2,500 years to reveal the prophecy’s meaning (3,000 years when various related much older Psalms are considered), is not His waiting done? Does His revealing it not signal that He has reached the time to fulfill it rather than having reached a point one, two or three years out?

17) Recall Haggai 1:13: “Then spoke Haggai the Lord’s messenger in the Lord’s message unto the people…” Haggai is the messenger to God’s people, with what is an all-important message from God. Would not God make clear in such a unique message He describes as “the Lord’s message unto His people” the correct date for action? What kind of message would it be if people did not know WHEN TO CARRY IT OUT?"

But now notice that the actual book of Haggai from start to finish is speaking to them THEN.  So by Dave's proof texting and reasonings, it really did only mean then because why would God tell those folk all that and mean it was all for later, years down the road and not really for them ultimately.  There is NO connecting between the THEN of Haggai and the NOW of Dave Pack.  Analogy maybe. Knock yourself out.  But any whacked out Baptist minister who saw his church falling apart or the Baptist Convention straying from the faith once delivered could also make this a great sermon ANALOGY.  He'd be scorned out of existence if he meant that he was literally the fulfillment of Haggai.  I suppose they don't call it an anal-logy for nothing.  It simply means  and literally so,  "a study of the anus"

A few obvious reads of Haggai meaning THEM not the current WCG/COG debacle and the original Zerubbabel and Joshua and not HWA and Dave Pack.

Haggai 1:

This is what the Lord Almighty says: “These people say, ‘The time has not yet come to rebuild the Lord’s house.’”

³ Then the word of the Lord came through the prophet Haggai: ⁴ “Is it a time for you yourselves to be living in your paneled houses, while this house remains a ruin?”
⁵ Now this is what the Lord Almighty says: “Give careful thought to your ways...
^12... Then Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, Joshua son of Jozadak, the high priest, and the whole remnant of the people obeyed the voice of the Lord their God and the message of the prophet Haggai, because the Lord their God had sent him. And the people feared the Lord.
¹³ Then Haggai, the Lord’s messenger, gave this message of the Lord to the people: “I am with you,” declares the Lord. ¹⁴ So the Lord stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua son of Jozadak, the high priest, and the spirit of the whole remnant of the people. They came and began to work on the house of the Lord Almighty, their God, ¹⁵ on the twenty-fourth day of the sixth month.

Haggai 2:

⁶ “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. ⁷ I will shake all nations, and what is desired by all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the Lord Almighty. ⁸ ‘The silver is mine and the gold is mine,’ declares the Lord Almighty. ⁹ ‘The glory of this present house will be greater than the glory of the former house,’ says the Lord Almighty. ‘And in this place I will grant peace,’ declares the Lord Almighty.”

I know we get so used to seeing the NT in the OT and I have explained why. I know it is so easy to take OT Messianic hopes in the Jewish mode as Second Coming , Jesus hopes in the NT.  It is near impossible for a Church goer today of denomination to understand that Isaiah 53 is not about Jesus.  It is a THEN analogy about Israel and may actually be Isaiah writing about his own impressions of himself trying to get to the Israel of then and his not so warm welcome in doing so. Too much information I know.

So to the point.  Dave Pack arguing that all these things MUST mean HIM and MUST mean NOW because why would God reveal all these things to HIM NOW and not do them NOW, this year, this August, this next week because this date is in the book of Haggai, are MISGUIDED, MISUNDERSTOOD, MISINTERPRETED and MISTAKEN.



One final example.  When the Book of Revelation says,  "To show unto his servants what must soon take place," and "behold I come quickly,"  those were the intent of the author for those folk then under that which they were going through then.  We read those words today as if they were written three days ago instead of to others two thousand years ago for reasons and in circumstances that are not ours today.  It is very easy to read the NT that way and we do it all the time.  It may be a mistake and the reason others have had to add concepts to the scripture and reexplain what "soon" and "shortly" must mean for us today. The apologetic was "for a day with the lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day."  People way back in the day were noticing (not scoffing..that's the authors definition) that things are not working out as advertised.  The author of II Peter accused them of accusing God of slackness concerning promises.  The answer was typical of nice hopes gone south for the time being.  "God does not see as you see."  "There is a way that seems right unto a man but the way thereof ends in death."  "The wisdom of man is foolishness with God." and "My ways are not your ways saith the Eternal."  It's a very common and oft used way of saying "oops, seems not to be unfolding as we had taught."  

The next question will be just how will he handle this?  Will be God be "giving us more time!"  Will there have been wiggle room for "I never said it was me," or "Then it must be next year?"  Dave has reasoned way too much for this year to ever get away with that.  Will it be swept under the rug of proof texting gone haywire?  Will it become "Spiiiiiiritual" as Ron Weinland blamed the folk for misunderstanding?  Will it revert to "I meant it as an analogy!"    Who knows...    But I do know, I really do, and believe with all my unbelieving heart that nothing of what Dave Pack has written about this topic will come to pass as Dave demands that it must.  Dave Pack is not really an Apostle anymore than Bob Thiel is a Prophet or James Malm a Theologian.  These men are unqualified by any standard to tell the who, what, where, when, why and how of theology and all things Bible.  These are men who read nothing outside their own views for consideration and members who consider mere booklets on topics to be the be all and end all of understanding the Bible.  It is sad to me and dangerous for those so inclined.

That wraps up my views of Dave Pack as spoken of through the Prophet Haggai.  Time is short and it remains that those who are entranced and mesmerized by this kind of Church and theological and spiritual leadership wake up and take charge of their own minds in these matters.  The individual life experience and journey is not meant to be one where you give yourself over to see the world and all things it can present to you through the five senses of another.  You don't need to filter your religious world through the eyes of anyone else who you think has more insight and more understanding than you could ever have. 

I have nothing against Dave Pack personally.  Another time, another circumstance and we might be able to actually "reason together," but Dave's reasoning really means agreeing with him which I never could. I wish the RCG/COG "lurkers" here the very best on this whacky journey your are being lead on.  I/We care about you because we have learned to care about ourselves first again after our own experiences.  Time now is short...for Dave Pack and the Restored Church of God.  We are seeing what Ron Weinland's Church and people are doing in response to Ron's personal machinations.  Shortly we shall see what the people of the Pack's reactions will be to his.  I am sorry for the theological lesson the members of RCG are about to learn as if it could not have been learned from others like Ron Weinland, but Earth School is like that...

**Please understand I realize fully that this view of scripture is my own based on my own years of study and considerations of past views.  It is not my intent to offend or confuse anyone on this topic.

Contact Dennis at DennisCDiehl@aol.com